On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
Well said. It's frustrating that Protoss can't do anything early- to mid-game versus Zerg unless they go air right now. Any move out prior to 7+ gate is suicide.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar.
I do not consider void rays and oracles to be good harass units. I don't mean in terms of balance or effectiveness. What I mean is it a hit and fade, constant microed unit. They do their most damage sitting in one spot. Consider the difference between marine stutter step and then look at the stationary VR attack. And that is the core of why I don't think VR's and Oracles are good harass units even if they get the job done.
And I don't really think the power of 2 base has anything to do with this issue.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
to echo this thought... i play R and play vs 1k + P consistently. i generally open a very fast speed build and go to 3h if he expands in a non greedy way, i fhe is greedy i will stay on 2. it's extremely obvious when protoss is rushing tech like this, i have no idea how you can struggle vs dt rush as Z, it is extremely easy to beat... Anyways, they have absolutely zero units and rarely will go above 3 sentries. if they go above 3 sentries and then do any tech that is not stargate, you can pretty much go mutas for a strong midgame lead. whenever i get pushed with early voids, DTS, or stuff like this, i've found that bane busts or simply killing the wall with speedlings is super effective..
Spire beats anything on 2 bases except for top level players making phoenixes and collosus for an all in that is very defendable as long as you get roach speed and good upgrades for ground. If they open for a heavy gate pressure and then follow up with DT drops or DT, its even easier to defend, you just have to not get in the mode of mass unit production after holding a gateway push looking for a cheap win. it's almost impossible to kill P on 2 bases now unles you have an overwhelming army, so instead, after beating a gate pressure, add static d, drones and continue to tech. unless you are seeing the composition of protoss army every 30 seconds, you're doing it wrong imo..
an older vid but shows some really effective drop harass from Z. I know this isn't he main thing you guys are discussing, i just wanted to point out that there are zergs who drop harass in every matchup and this one in particular is pretty good
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
Do DT's ever not pay off in the fashion that banelings do? A baneling bust against protoss is very all in and requires the protoss to miss FF's (which does happen). A quick DT build is at least guaranteed to kill the 3rd hatch and puts you up on tech by giving you archons and harassment potential.
Also, different races are different is valid. A zerg has to get 4 gas early on which denies their own 3rd base which means you will be 2 base vs 2 base. A protoss almost always gets at least 3 gas that early just because all of their tech (even stuff that lets you live) costs gas and your 3rd is almost always later than the Z as it is.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
Do DT's ever not pay off in the fashion that banelings do? A baneling bust against protoss is very all in and requires the protoss to miss FF's (which does happen). A quick DT build is at least guaranteed to kill the 3rd hatch and puts you up on tech by giving you archons and harassment potential.
Also, different races are different is valid. A zerg has to get 4 gas early on which denies their own 3rd base which means you will be 2 base vs 2 base. A protoss almost always gets at least 3 gas that early just because all of their tech (even stuff that lets you live) costs gas and your 3rd is almost always later than the Z as it is.
if you morph 10+ banes, youre going to do damage unless you headbutt into forcefields. if you make a lot of speedlings, it's actually incredibly hard to keep all of your structures alive vs the bane bust + the zergling dps. ive found that even players very prepared for bane busts couldn't hold them, not because the banes conneted and hit crucial pylons, but because they used their forcefields, then failed to do enough dps to kill a neverending parade push of lings
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
Do DT's ever not pay off in the fashion that banelings do? A baneling bust against protoss is very all in and requires the protoss to miss FF's (which does happen). A quick DT build is at least guaranteed to kill the 3rd hatch and puts you up on tech by giving you archons and harassment potential.
Also, different races are different is valid. A zerg has to get 4 gas early on which denies their own 3rd base which means you will be 2 base vs 2 base. A protoss almost always gets at least 3 gas that early just because all of their tech (even stuff that lets you live) costs gas and your 3rd is almost always later than the Z as it is.
I don't know how you could not have seen DT fail on an epic level and do no damage. Quick DT do not guarantee anything and open you up to all kinds of timings against zerg. Protoss do not have these magical builds that guarantee anything, like denying a third hatch.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
Do DT's ever not pay off in the fashion that banelings do? A baneling bust against protoss is very all in and requires the protoss to miss FF's (which does happen). A quick DT build is at least guaranteed to kill the 3rd hatch and puts you up on tech by giving you archons and harassment potential.
Also, different races are different is valid. A zerg has to get 4 gas early on which denies their own 3rd base which means you will be 2 base vs 2 base. A protoss almost always gets at least 3 gas that early just because all of their tech (even stuff that lets you live) costs gas and your 3rd is almost always later than the Z as it is.
if you morph 10+ banes, youre going to do damage unless you headbutt into forcefields. if you make a lot of speedlings, it's actually incredibly hard to keep all of your structures alive vs the bane bust + the zergling dps. ive found that even players very prepared for bane busts couldn't hold them, not because the banes conneted and hit crucial pylons, but because they used their forcefields, then failed to do enough dps to kill a neverending parade push of lings
If all it took was to morph 10 banes to do damage, why do more people not do it? I am a low masters player and most of the time when I try to bust a protoss, it just puts me behind.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
Do DT's ever not pay off in the fashion that banelings do? A baneling bust against protoss is very all in and requires the protoss to miss FF's (which does happen). A quick DT build is at least guaranteed to kill the 3rd hatch and puts you up on tech by giving you archons and harassment potential.
Also, different races are different is valid. A zerg has to get 4 gas early on which denies their own 3rd base which means you will be 2 base vs 2 base. A protoss almost always gets at least 3 gas that early just because all of their tech (even stuff that lets you live) costs gas and your 3rd is almost always later than the Z as it is.
I don't know how you could not have seen DT fail on an epic level and do no damage. Quick DT do not guarantee anything and open you up to all kinds of timings against zerg. Protoss do not have these magical builds that guarantee anything, like denying a third hatch.
The only time I see DT's fail on an epic level is when it is scouted and they use a pylon to warp in the front when a spore is up only to get their 3 dt's which were split up to kill drones surrounded by a pack of speedlings.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
Do DT's ever not pay off in the fashion that banelings do? A baneling bust against protoss is very all in and requires the protoss to miss FF's (which does happen). A quick DT build is at least guaranteed to kill the 3rd hatch and puts you up on tech by giving you archons and harassment potential.
Also, different races are different is valid. A zerg has to get 4 gas early on which denies their own 3rd base which means you will be 2 base vs 2 base. A protoss almost always gets at least 3 gas that early just because all of their tech (even stuff that lets you live) costs gas and your 3rd is almost always later than the Z as it is.
if you morph 10+ banes, youre going to do damage unless you headbutt into forcefields. if you make a lot of speedlings, it's actually incredibly hard to keep all of your structures alive vs the bane bust + the zergling dps. ive found that even players very prepared for bane busts couldn't hold them, not because the banes conneted and hit crucial pylons, but because they used their forcefields, then failed to do enough dps to kill a neverending parade push of lings
If all it took was to morph 10 banes to do damage, why do more people not do it? I am a low masters player and most of the time when I try to bust a protoss, it just puts me behind.
Because there is another player in the game who is actively trying to figure out what the fuck you are doing. If you see a baneling nest early as a protoss(and I am not that high level, but even I know what to do), you sim-city up and get yourself some FFs. The reason people don't do it a lot is because you can deal with it without teching or getting anything.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
Do DT's ever not pay off in the fashion that banelings do? A baneling bust against protoss is very all in and requires the protoss to miss FF's (which does happen). A quick DT build is at least guaranteed to kill the 3rd hatch and puts you up on tech by giving you archons and harassment potential.
Also, different races are different is valid. A zerg has to get 4 gas early on which denies their own 3rd base which means you will be 2 base vs 2 base. A protoss almost always gets at least 3 gas that early just because all of their tech (even stuff that lets you live) costs gas and your 3rd is almost always later than the Z as it is.
if you morph 10+ banes, youre going to do damage unless you headbutt into forcefields. if you make a lot of speedlings, it's actually incredibly hard to keep all of your structures alive vs the bane bust + the zergling dps. ive found that even players very prepared for bane busts couldn't hold them, not because the banes conneted and hit crucial pylons, but because they used their forcefields, then failed to do enough dps to kill a neverending parade push of lings
If all it took was to morph 10 banes to do damage, why do more people not do it? I am a low masters player and most of the time when I try to bust a protoss, it just puts me behind.
Because there is another player in the game who is actively trying to figure out what the fuck you are doing. If you see a baneling nest early as a protoss(and I am not that high level, but even I know what to do), you sim-city up and get yourself some FFs. The reason people don't do it a lot is because you can deal with it without teching or getting anything.
But the other guy just said you are going to do damage unless you butt heads against forcefields. What you are saying here is exactly what I was already saying about morphing 20 banelings.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
Do DT's ever not pay off in the fashion that banelings do? A baneling bust against protoss is very all in and requires the protoss to miss FF's (which does happen). A quick DT build is at least guaranteed to kill the 3rd hatch and puts you up on tech by giving you archons and harassment potential.
Also, different races are different is valid. A zerg has to get 4 gas early on which denies their own 3rd base which means you will be 2 base vs 2 base. A protoss almost always gets at least 3 gas that early just because all of their tech (even stuff that lets you live) costs gas and your 3rd is almost always later than the Z as it is.
I don't know how you could not have seen DT fail on an epic level and do no damage. Quick DT do not guarantee anything and open you up to all kinds of timings against zerg. Protoss do not have these magical builds that guarantee anything, like denying a third hatch.
The only time I see DT's fail on an epic level is when it is scouted and they use a pylon to warp in the front when a spore is up only to get their 3 dt's which were split up to kill drones surrounded by a pack of speedlings.
So the opening fails if it is scouted and the person builds a spores? That doesn't sound like a good opening at all, since way to deal with it is to be good at scouting.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
Do DT's ever not pay off in the fashion that banelings do? A baneling bust against protoss is very all in and requires the protoss to miss FF's (which does happen). A quick DT build is at least guaranteed to kill the 3rd hatch and puts you up on tech by giving you archons and harassment potential.
Also, different races are different is valid. A zerg has to get 4 gas early on which denies their own 3rd base which means you will be 2 base vs 2 base. A protoss almost always gets at least 3 gas that early just because all of their tech (even stuff that lets you live) costs gas and your 3rd is almost always later than the Z as it is.
if you morph 10+ banes, youre going to do damage unless you headbutt into forcefields. if you make a lot of speedlings, it's actually incredibly hard to keep all of your structures alive vs the bane bust + the zergling dps. ive found that even players very prepared for bane busts couldn't hold them, not because the banes conneted and hit crucial pylons, but because they used their forcefields, then failed to do enough dps to kill a neverending parade push of lings
If all it took was to morph 10 banes to do damage, why do more people not do it? I am a low masters player and most of the time when I try to bust a protoss, it just puts me behind.
you must be using a passive gas timing, or are not scouting for vulnerability correctly (i could be wrong, i hvae no rep to go off of)
banelings are good in every matchup, there is a reason leenock and other top tier Z get a banes nest when P goes gateway expo and not forge expo.. they want it just in case they get an opportunity to bust. go watch the recent leenock games, in every gateway expo he gets a nest.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
So your big solution to protoss not having enough harassment is to use the mothership core. Great, except you can only make one of those. Yes it was a great addition to toss strategy, but it does not allow for much harass. It allows you to move out and PRESSURE with a small group of units unlike before, because you don't have to worry about losing them. But if the opponent is the same skill level, it's not like you are going to be getting into any mineral lines to do economic damage. The warp prism change on the other hand allows for bypassing defenses and at least gets units in position to do that damage. Whether the toss units inside can actually get any damage done is another question. It's not like they have very effective units to drop, so I don't know why you would be so worried about it.
But now that I think about it, there isn't any point in talking to someone who thinks that tosses haven't explored their harassment options. That's just an ignorant insult to everyone who plays protoss, especially those who do it for a living.
On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote: As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait.
Try to harass with Zerglings against a wall with a cannon behind it. Besides the early pools (which are about the same as cannon rush/proxy gates) and stuff like 7RR (4 gate) that _should_ not work when properly scouted and reacted to Zerg has to wait for 150-200 supply (or air play) to even have a chance to do damage to the Protoss players, because some buildings with a cannon and a Zealot/Sentry prevent anything (again, in theory, as not everyone hits the perfect forcefield when suddenly 10 wild banelings appear). And it is far more of a commitment than warping in 2 DTs, or a void ray, an oracle, two warp prisms with two Zealots each or something similar. One spore in every base does not cover all drones, it does not cover the gases, it does not cover watch towers, it does not cover tech buildings. There is so much that can be done if one really wants to.
The reason you see so many 2 base allins is not because of a lack of harassment or late game options, in fact Protoss Deathballs are still feared (especially when heavy on air + all 3 AoE options). It isn't a huge falloff in economy either, as it is possible to go for more than two bases while staying equal/ahead in economy and defending them reasonably well. The reason you see them over and over is because the economy of 2 base Protoss peaks earlier, thus the army production and army size peaks earlier, plus the need for Zerg to have a third base to have a chance at killing Protoss (even later army production) which is what makes 2 base play so incredibly strong. If Zerg screws up at one point, he straight up dies. If he doesn't it still comes down to him reacting with the right army composition, delaying the push, backstabbs and surrounds, forcefields etc etc. If he loses his third base when he could not yet make use of the superior economy he loses in most cases the game as well. What is the current flavour of 2 base Protoss right now? The mantrain? A build that even when properly scouted and reacted to can still be deadly, it is that strong (according to the people in that thread).
As long as 2 base allin from Protoss is SO strong, I do not expect Protoss players to have fully grasped the potential of their numerous harassment options, as there is simply no need for it.
I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification
Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council.
Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo.
8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism.
If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings?
It is about timing. Zerg can morph 20 banelings in the timing window of protoss having 2 DT's. However, protoss should have sentries to protect the wall at this timing too. Gas timings are also different for the races. If zerg gets earlier gas that means no 3rd base which means an equal all in.
Basically, you cant directly compare like that.
I think he is 100% correct and the argument that "all the races are different, so you can't compare them" doesn't hold water. Every race harvest gas at the same rate and there is no way to speed up the process. Getting 20 banelings is a huge risk if it doesn't pay off for the zerg, just like getting DTs is for protoss.
Do DT's ever not pay off in the fashion that banelings do? A baneling bust against protoss is very all in and requires the protoss to miss FF's (which does happen). A quick DT build is at least guaranteed to kill the 3rd hatch and puts you up on tech by giving you archons and harassment potential.
Also, different races are different is valid. A zerg has to get 4 gas early on which denies their own 3rd base which means you will be 2 base vs 2 base. A protoss almost always gets at least 3 gas that early just because all of their tech (even stuff that lets you live) costs gas and your 3rd is almost always later than the Z as it is.
I don't know how you could not have seen DT fail on an epic level and do no damage. Quick DT do not guarantee anything and open you up to all kinds of timings against zerg. Protoss do not have these magical builds that guarantee anything, like denying a third hatch.
The only time I see DT's fail on an epic level is when it is scouted and they use a pylon to warp in the front when a spore is up only to get their 3 dt's which were split up to kill drones surrounded by a pack of speedlings.
So the opening fails if it is scouted and the person builds a spores? That doesn't sound like a good opening at all, since way to deal with it is to be good at scouting.
Yes, it isnt a perfect opening. But in a majority of cases you can still kill the 3rd as long as you dont do what I said (splitting DTs up).
Was it just me or did anyone else really enjoy the yesterday's game between Fantasy and Bunny? That was one of the fun early game PvTs I've seen in a while. And guess what unit was missing from Bunny... Yup, Colossus. In fact, the game was fun until Bunny started making Colossus.
Seriously, Colossus is such a terribly designed unit.
EPT
