EPTWarp prism speed buff, test map. 5.28.2013 - Page 53
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
On May 30 2013 09:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: I don't want to butt into this argument, but I just wanted clarification Getting 2 DTs costs 200 gas for the DTs as well as 100 gas for the shrine, and another 100 gas for the twilight council. Doing a DT drop costs another 100 gas for the robo. Banelings costs 50 gas. 4 banelings costs 100 gas. 8 banelings costs as much gas as 2 DTs, 16 banelings costs as much gas as getting 2 DTs and the tech for 2 DTs. 20 banelings costs as much gas as getting the the DTs+Prism. If protoss can afford to warp in 2 DTs with a Prism, can't zerg afford to morph 20 banelings? for more clarification: Zerg loses workers by taking gas, not just the three from working but also the one drone mutating into the extractor. Protoss can get away with taking gas earlier because it does not cost them straight up workers, and it is also viable (and economic) for protoss to take 2 gases earlier and put 2 workers in each. Furthermore, Zerg has the added cost of Queens, which are not easy on the minerals either. Technically 20 banelings would be the same cost, but to get the same amount of gas out at that time Zerg would sacrifice way more economy for it (we are talking about rushing to the stuff here). Not to mention the additional larvae loss for 10x2 Zerglings. Furthermore the tech is not lost for Protoss, you will both build twilight and robo in pretty much every game that passes 15 minutes. The cost of the DT shrine is more than made up for the Zerg having to invest in spores in all bases + Overseer in his army (actually it does cost so much that Protoss can just build a DT shrine in plain sight in his natural and not make any DT and come out equal (if you value gas higher) or ahead economically by what Zerg has to invest for detection). Oh, and it is not like you would get banelings for free, you need tech for that as well (drone + 50 gas). So the real unit investion boils down to 2 DTs and a warp prism. 8 banelings. Everything else cannot be taken from you and either will be made anyway (robo + twilight) or force enough response to be worth the investment (DT shrine). For the sake of a weird discussion that I do not really see a point in lets assume Zerg cheats and gets 20 banelings while not falling behind hard in economy the very second you finish collecting gas for warping in the 2 DTs. 20 banelings often times bring down a gateway and a pylon with the wall still being intact thanks to few sentries, and that is all. No probe kills, rarely army kills (maybe a Zealot), while a well-microed warp prism with 2 DTs and possible follow up warpins can wreak havoc depending on the layout of bases (whirlwind comes to mind as a good example of strong drop play). Again, pointing out that if you factor in that you get to keep your tech, even if you lose the prism + DTs you lose 8 banelings. Will the baneling attack work if you have 30+ speedlings behind the banelings? Maybe. Sometimes. But then it is no longer a harassment but rather all-in already, which is not really part of this discussion. so much for the clarification stuff (which I don't really see the point in, given the assymetric design of the races, but then again you wanted that kind of stuff) as for the other part of the discussion - there is not that much fancy micro Protoss can do with harassment, due to the design of the units. It might not feel as satisfying as microing that banshee against 10 marines without stim, or stutterstepping marines for a minute. That does not mean that you cannot do any micro, and that it would not make a huge difference. A DT attacking an extractor or killing 5 drones and a Queen is a huge difference, an oracle not flying into the spore but staying out of its range and picking off drones until its shields are down thanks to the Queen picking at it - there is enough one can do to make the harassment count. Sometimes I feel like people mistake "harassment" for "dealing a killing blow". Your DTs will not straight up kill a good player. But if each DT gets like 4-6 drone kills the harassment was already worth it. If you commit more to it and kill the third base it puts you far ahead. What if you just grab 3-4 ground units early on and move out with the MSC? The Zerg player has to cut ~5-10 drones to defend a push he cannot kill. You may not get into the sweet drone line, but denying 5-10 drones is already really successful for early harassment and puts you nicely ahead. After all it is just harassment, not a killing blow. And it is not a get-out-of-jail-card that leads to an autowin if you just perform the right build order and your opponent doesn't (which many 2 base plays are designed as), it is simply less risk less reward (but there is enough reward in my opinion). Oh and for the wise guy: I never said Protoss hasn't explored all harassment options, I just said Protoss players did not fully grasp the potential of the harassment. I'm not that into semantics, but you just turned my words around into an insult for all pro Protoss players, which it never was intended as. Just recently Naniwa reintroduced the Gateway opening with huge potential, as you get the early units for harassing (with MSC). It secured him second place in a huge tournament. There still is stuff out there to be discovered and refined, and it is not like Protoss would not have any opportunity to harass enough to draw equal/ahead, which this discussion originally was about. Sometimes it just takes a fresh approach. What if you used a warp prism to force a ground based Zerg to keep enough units at home to defend a full warp in to help secure yourself a third base without actually having to warp in even once? What if you drop later on +1 Zealots with the only intention to kill 2 drones with each Zealot? What if you spend your initial chrono boosts on a gateway and use the increased army size to deal increased damage early on, forcing a ton of units or straight up killing the opponent? There is stuff still to be explored. Pro players don't find out everything, especially if they practice the same stuff over and over. Give the complexity of the game a little more credit. Don't worry, I'll stop writing walls of text now. Tired of a rather pointless discussion that just eats up time. | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
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Tannex
United States196 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 30 2013 10:29 EleanorRIgby wrote: at least make the warp prism 200/100 or something. 200 minerals is way too much for how versatile the unit is. And protoss always have extra minerals to spend away, and if you chrono out a prism it hardly takes any time away from your immo/col count. When terrans say stuff like this, I like to remind them they don't really like it when protoss suggest to "get a raven". Delaying your colossi in the early-mid game is always risky. I know it doesn't seem risky and that protoss has unlimited minerals, but it is. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
if only Protoss had a unit that would allow for some safe harass without commitment by having one button that just teleports the entire army into safety. Oh wait. wow you really think MSC can harrass mineral lines and deal damage. Lol. Best thing it could do is snipe expansions and its only possible when your opponent does not react when Protoss moves out. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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JSK
United States133 Posts
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JSK
United States133 Posts
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On May 30 2013 11:25 wUndertUnge wrote: Just a crazy idea, but would buffing the MSC in some way - increase speed, increase energy regen - help with more aggression potential? I thought that's what the MSC was for. it was for the only purpose to fix PvP /edit : to fix it in a way that is much harder for protoss to die to 1 base stuff. and to open up all those gate expands in pvz . since u still have a chance to survive vs speedlings if you open gate expand now when toss has ms-core . | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
On May 30 2013 10:41 Plansix wrote: When terrans say stuff like this, I like to remind them they don't really like it when protoss suggest to "get a raven". Delaying your colossi in the early-mid game is always risky. I know it doesn't seem risky and that protoss has unlimited minerals, but it is. You make is sound more of a risk then it is, if you chrono it out it doesn't take much time at all. a raven on the other hand you need to switch techlab to reactor make a slow building raven that costs 200 gas and then switch back add on's which terran desperately need in the midgame for medivacs. And medivacs are much much more crucial to the terran mid game then a warp prism is. Not saying making a prism isn't a risk but just a super small one. I'm all for a buff to the prism to get protoss to start multitasking and harass more but i would rather add a hp/shield boost or a small increase in base speed while keeping the speed upgrade, maybe even make the speed upgrade a bit cheaper. Right now it just seems too big of a buff to start out with. Maybe the rest map will give us some more solid results as this is all speculation, just think blizzard should start off with a smaller buff and work their way up if needed. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11078 Posts
On May 30 2013 10:41 Plansix wrote: When terrans say stuff like this, I like to remind them they don't really like it when protoss suggest to "get a raven". Delaying your colossi in the early-mid game is always risky. I know it doesn't seem risky and that protoss has unlimited minerals, but it is. And it's ignoring why we have unlimited minerals. For gods sakes we need something besides zealots to dump those mins into. It's so dicey going into the midgame without some sort of splash. Also DTs are 125/125 Not 100/100 and way way more effective than I have ever seen in pro play/experienced. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On May 30 2013 12:41 Sabu113 wrote: And it's ignoring why we have unlimited minerals. For gods sakes we need something besides zealots to dump those mins into. It's so dicey going into the midgame without some sort of splash. Also DTs are 125/125 Not 100/100. Thank you! I thought I was going to have to type that, and that the dark shrine costs 150/150, not 100 gas. | ||
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sambo400
United States378 Posts
On May 30 2013 12:41 Sabu113 wrote: And it's ignoring why we have unlimited minerals. For gods sakes we need something besides zealots to dump those mins into. It's so dicey going into the midgame without some sort of splash. Also DTs are 125/125 Not 100/100 and way way more effective than I have ever seen in pro play/experienced. Master toss here, I disagree with the unlimited mineral argument, if you have too many minerals please send them to me around 8 minutes... Getting a Raven is only a delay if Terran was planning to be aggressive, you ALWAYS need your robo units out unless you are going for some sort of all in, medvacs are something you only need by the time you wish/need to fight. And if you made a raven and needed vikings for colossus, you just got duped anyway. Scans and turrets should be enough in almost any PvT scenario. They need to make twylight tech safer. You can't go storm before colossus and be safe unless the map really does it for you like Ohana or something, and Archons are incredibly fragile. I think buffing archon range could work. Colossus nerf could also happen if they did this, Possibly 1 less range when upgraded or something. | ||
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
On May 30 2013 07:34 jake1138 wrote: You mean the time when you need to get out a couple observers so you can actually scout what Terran is doing? I'm using a lot of hallus in my play to do that at the moment meaning I need few observers. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On May 30 2013 11:13 JSK wrote: Oh and how is it even debatable that protoss has been underperforming ever since the beginning of sc2. Just based on tournament results from the last 2 years at the highest level By any objective measure, it isn't. Base it on results, base it on TLPD winrates, base it on whatever. Protoss has been the weakest race. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 30 2013 10:20 Cirqueenflex wrote: for more clarification: Zerg loses workers by taking gas, not just the three from working but also the one drone mutating into the extractor. Protoss can get away with taking gas earlier because it does not cost them straight up workers, and it is also viable (and economic) for protoss to take 2 gases earlier and put 2 workers in each. Furthermore, Zerg has the added cost of Queens, which are not easy on the minerals either. Technically 20 banelings would be the same cost, but to get the same amount of gas out at that time Zerg would sacrifice way more economy for it (we are talking about rushing to the stuff here). Not to mention the additional larvae loss for 10x2 Zerglings. Furthermore the tech is not lost for Protoss, you will both build twilight and robo in pretty much every game that passes 15 minutes. The cost of the DT shrine is more than made up for the Zerg having to invest in spores in all bases + Overseer in his army (actually it does cost so much that Protoss can just build a DT shrine in plain sight in his natural and not make any DT and come out equal (if you value gas higher) or ahead economically by what Zerg has to invest for detection). Oh, and it is not like you would get banelings for free, you need tech for that as well (drone + 50 gas). So the real unit investion boils down to 2 DTs and a warp prism. 8 banelings. Everything else cannot be taken from you and either will be made anyway (robo + twilight) or force enough response to be worth the investment (DT shrine). For the sake of a weird discussion that I do not really see a point in lets assume Zerg cheats and gets 20 banelings while not falling behind hard in economy the very second you finish collecting gas for warping in the 2 DTs. 20 banelings often times bring down a gateway and a pylon with the wall still being intact thanks to few sentries, and that is all. No probe kills, rarely army kills (maybe a Zealot), while a well-microed warp prism with 2 DTs and possible follow up warpins can wreak havoc depending on the layout of bases (whirlwind comes to mind as a good example of strong drop play). Again, pointing out that if you factor in that you get to keep your tech, even if you lose the prism + DTs you lose 8 banelings. Will the baneling attack work if you have 30+ speedlings behind the banelings? Maybe. Sometimes. But then it is no longer a harassment but rather all-in already, which is not really part of this discussion. so much for the clarification stuff (which I don't really see the point in, given the assymetric design of the races, but then again you wanted that kind of stuff) as for the other part of the discussion - there is not that much fancy micro Protoss can do with harassment, due to the design of the units. It might not feel as satisfying as microing that banshee against 10 marines without stim, or stutterstepping marines for a minute. That does not mean that you cannot do any micro, and that it would not make a huge difference. A DT attacking an extractor or killing 5 drones and a Queen is a huge difference, an oracle not flying into the spore but staying out of its range and picking off drones until its shields are down thanks to the Queen picking at it - there is enough one can do to make the harassment count. Sometimes I feel like people mistake "harassment" for "dealing a killing blow". Your DTs will not straight up kill a good player. But if each DT gets like 4-6 drone kills the harassment was already worth it. If you commit more to it and kill the third base it puts you far ahead. What if you just grab 3-4 ground units early on and move out with the MSC? The Zerg player has to cut ~5-10 drones to defend a push he cannot kill. You may not get into the sweet drone line, but denying 5-10 drones is already really successful for early harassment and puts you nicely ahead. After all it is just harassment, not a killing blow. And it is not a get-out-of-jail-card that leads to an autowin if you just perform the right build order and your opponent doesn't (which many 2 base plays are designed as), it is simply less risk less reward (but there is enough reward in my opinion). Oh and for the wise guy: I never said Protoss hasn't explored all harassment options, I just said Protoss players did not fully grasp the potential of the harassment. I'm not that into semantics, but you just turned my words around into an insult for all pro Protoss players, which it never was intended as. Just recently Naniwa reintroduced the Gateway opening with huge potential, as you get the early units for harassing (with MSC). It secured him second place in a huge tournament. There still is stuff out there to be discovered and refined, and it is not like Protoss would not have any opportunity to harass enough to draw equal/ahead, which this discussion originally was about. Sometimes it just takes a fresh approach. What if you used a warp prism to force a ground based Zerg to keep enough units at home to defend a full warp in to help secure yourself a third base without actually having to warp in even once? What if you drop later on +1 Zealots with the only intention to kill 2 drones with each Zealot? What if you spend your initial chrono boosts on a gateway and use the increased army size to deal increased damage early on, forcing a ton of units or straight up killing the opponent? There is stuff still to be explored. Pro players don't find out everything, especially if they practice the same stuff over and over. Give the complexity of the game a little more credit. Don't worry, I'll stop writing walls of text now. Tired of a rather pointless discussion that just eats up time. Wait what? Let me get this straight... 150/100 (Robo) + 150/100 (Twilight Council) + 150/150 (Dark Shrine) [Totalling 450/350 for tech alone] None of those count because "Protoss is going to get them anyway" But somehow 2 queens count because that cuts into your econ? You're really going to compare larva, 2 queens and 2 drones to 450/350 worth of tech and then conclude that Protoss was going to get the tech anyway as if Zerg wasn't going to get Queens, Drones, and Larva? Two Dark Templars alone is the gas of 10 banelings. Two DTS + Prism = 450/250 worth of resources Ten Banelings = 500/250 worth of resources (yes, that includes the cost of the lings) And then you switch over to saying that a bane bust doesn't do anything? Really? Somehow, a protoss player rushing through 2 different tech trees is just free money but it costs you money if you rush to banes? But it doesn't really matter--because you missed the point entirely. I was trying to show that a protoss player rushing as fast as he could to do a DT drop needs as much gas as it takes to do a bane bust (more actually, since you don't need 20 banes) If a protoss did that he would have no econ, no sentries to defend and no army to speak of save a zealot or 3. Its as all-in as a bane bust and works about as well as a bane bust. In the late game, protoss can use DT drops very effectively. But in the late game you can simply grab prism speed after thermal lance and protoss already have the ability now without the patch. I also have news for you--zerg is not the only race that fake pressure works against. You know how much damage making 10 zerglings is to Protoss? If you make 10 zerglings and run them around the front of the protoss base he immediately plops down an extra 1-3 sentries on top of what he already has and delays his tech by another minute. You know why? Because scare tactics that force zerg to make drones also force protoss to spend gas on sentries instead of tech. Every sentry a protoss player makes is 1 less upgrade, 1 less robo. Every two sentries delays a colossus. But somehow this is not relevant because it goes against your narrative of only zerg having to make sacrifices to perceived pressure. Look, I'm a terran player. This change will make me lose more often, and it will frustrate me to no end. But its better for the game. Do you know why? Because if protoss players beats their opponents by being all over the map--then the game is moving in the right direction. So stop treating protoss players as if they don't actually play the game. Stop with your mindset that somehow your opponents spending money on tech doesn't count but you spending money on queens does. Stop pretending like dropping 8-16 lings in the lategame doesn't fuck over protoss as much as dropping 1-2 zealots. Protoss die right now if lings run by sentries--those lings will be just as effective if they flew over cliffs instead of hoped the protoss player landed forcefields slow. Stop with this weird mindset that somehow protoss using 4 probes early to mine gas is this "free" thing protoss gets to do and isn't what it really is (which is getting enough sentries to survive attacks while expanding). Protoss don't get free gas. Protoss don't get free tech. Arguing that "you'll get it anyway" ignores the fact that they still cost a lot more than 2 queens and 2 drones. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On May 30 2013 14:09 BronzeKnee wrote: By any objective measure, it isn't. Base it on results, base it on TLPD winrates, base it on whatever. Protoss has been the weakest race. And even if protoss isn't weak (I don't think they are personally) what is bad about a buff that makes the game more kinetic and dynamic? | ||
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