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On May 30 2013 05:32 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 04:05 Swisslink wrote:On May 30 2013 03:50 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 03:35 Swisslink wrote:
Well, I think we got a problem here:
Protoss perform pretty damn well in PvZ in Korea (GSL AND Proleague above 50% by quite a bit) and decent in PvT (pretty close to 50%, a little bit below) but they're just not performing well at all in Europe.
I'm just wondering which tournaments Blizzard took in consideration for the statement that the Protoss are underperforming on the highest level of play in Korea. The amount of Protoss is pretty damn low but that's not a result of the current state of the game, because all the qualifiers for Code S Season 1 were played in WoL. And in Code S as well as in Code A, the winrate of the Protoss players is above the winrates of the other two races. What GSL are you watching? Protoss is definitely not the highest winrate in GSL. They are even or slightly below in both their matches. And please for the love of Flash stop referencing Proleague. The bo1 format is inherently advantageous to the gimmicky plays that Protoss can make, and team leagues are filled with sniper builds, gimmicky rushes etc. bo1 team leagues are not valid indicators of balance whatsoever Well, I was referring to GSL Code S + Code A. Code S PvT: 6:5 if you count the matches, 15:15 if you count the maps Code S PvZ: 5:6 if you cound the matches, 23:24 if you count the maps Overall Winrates: Protoss: 49% (38:39) Zerg: 49% (58:59) Terran: 52% (51:49) Code S + Code A PvT: 10:10 matches, 25:28 maps Code S + Code A PvZ: 9:5 matches, 52:43 maps Overall Winrate: Protoss: 52% Zerg: 48% Terran: 49% So... yeah :-P You're right for Code S alone, but with about 2 maps more lost than won in Code S alone max, that seems pretty damn balanced and can definitely not be called "underperforming" xD And I agree that the proleague is no appropriate reference - but I was just looking for a league where Protoss were underperforming... and haven't found one. That's why I included the Proleague. WCS EU
Well, then
I'm sure you guys have been seeing this too, but we're noticing Protoss slightly underperforming at the highest level of play especially in Korea and Europe
is a weird way to say that 
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On May 30 2013 05:53 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 05:32 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 04:05 Swisslink wrote:On May 30 2013 03:50 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 03:35 Swisslink wrote:
Well, I think we got a problem here:
Protoss perform pretty damn well in PvZ in Korea (GSL AND Proleague above 50% by quite a bit) and decent in PvT (pretty close to 50%, a little bit below) but they're just not performing well at all in Europe.
I'm just wondering which tournaments Blizzard took in consideration for the statement that the Protoss are underperforming on the highest level of play in Korea. The amount of Protoss is pretty damn low but that's not a result of the current state of the game, because all the qualifiers for Code S Season 1 were played in WoL. And in Code S as well as in Code A, the winrate of the Protoss players is above the winrates of the other two races. What GSL are you watching? Protoss is definitely not the highest winrate in GSL. They are even or slightly below in both their matches. And please for the love of Flash stop referencing Proleague. The bo1 format is inherently advantageous to the gimmicky plays that Protoss can make, and team leagues are filled with sniper builds, gimmicky rushes etc. bo1 team leagues are not valid indicators of balance whatsoever Well, I was referring to GSL Code S + Code A. Code S PvT: 6:5 if you count the matches, 15:15 if you count the maps Code S PvZ: 5:6 if you cound the matches, 23:24 if you count the maps Overall Winrates: Protoss: 49% (38:39) Zerg: 49% (58:59) Terran: 52% (51:49) Code S + Code A PvT: 10:10 matches, 25:28 maps Code S + Code A PvZ: 9:5 matches, 52:43 maps Overall Winrate: Protoss: 52% Zerg: 48% Terran: 49% So... yeah :-P You're right for Code S alone, but with about 2 maps more lost than won in Code S alone max, that seems pretty damn balanced and can definitely not be called "underperforming" xD And I agree that the proleague is no appropriate reference - but I was just looking for a league where Protoss were underperforming... and haven't found one. That's why I included the Proleague. WCS EU Well, then Show nested quote +I'm sure you guys have been seeing this too, but we're noticing Protoss slightly underperforming at the highest level of play especially in [b]Korea and Europe is a weird way to say that
It says Korea and Europe... And GSL is underperforming there's no Protoss in the finals
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All of these points are pretty much common knowledge, and the reason they get brought up is that Toss has some pretty good advantages throughout the game already, so I don't understand at all why they suddenly need faster warp prisms to go along with them. They can upgrade the damn warp prism speed at the Robo bay as it stands, god forbid they have to forgo thermal lance if they want to rush straight into heavy harass with speed prisms. Do you not understand this point? This doesn't seem like kind of a random thing to buff?
When have you ever seen anyone research warp prism speed before thermal lance? If that was somehow a solution to something, why haven't we seen it? I believe the answer is simple. It's not a solution to anything. It's way too risky. Protoss who goes robo must make colossus to survive the initial stim+medivac timing. Having a fast warp prism out on the map, which would delay both colossus and thermal lance, doesn't keep your bases from going down by an unstoppable force. Even if Blizzard gave Protoss fast warp prism speed for free, it still delays colossus production and costs you the equivalent of two zealots, it just won't delay thermal lance.
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Didn't they want to buff Protoss late game harass options not an early game micro buff?
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would be neat if they buffed the upgrade speed or reduced wp food cost instead, to reduce the benefit the buff provides for allins
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On May 30 2013 05:48 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 05:26 rikter wrote:On May 30 2013 03:54 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 03:43 rikter wrote:
I really hope they ditch this idea.
I play T, as it is Protoss has been given:
1) Planetary Nexus (that has stupid range and attacks air as well) so early game barracks aggression is kinda hurting
2) The strongest most herp derp lategame unit composition, period (collossus/templar).
3) Cheaper upgrades, which can also be chronoboosted.
4) Warp in mechanic that negates defenders advantage
As it is Im weaker in the early game, the late game, so lets go and buff some of their midgame units too, fuck it. This doesnt break the deathball, it just makes it easier for Protoss to warp in wherever the hell they feel like it instead of having to take a little bit of time and build a damn pylon or run the units across the map like everyone else.
What an overwhelming amount of evidence you've made to support your claims! Extremely impressive argument you've put forward that I definitely haven't read 50,000 other times in the same manner with zero actual evidence to support it. 1) FACT: Protoss has been given planetary Nexus as EVIDENCED by the fact that its in the damn game FACT: The planetary nexus has the range of a siege tank, attacks air, and (one of) its effects in the game is to help protoss against pushes that arent supported by medivacs. 3) FACT go to friggin liquipedia and look at the upgrade costs, you will notice that the Toss upgrades cost less than their Terran counterpart FACT Protoss can use chronoboost on upgrades to get them out faster 4) FACT warpin mechanic negates defenders advantage, period. Thats the whole point of warping in; you can reinforce anywhere you have a pylon so your units dont walk across the map. Units walking across the map is what creates defenders advantage, warping in directly at the enemy base negates this. These three points pretty much speak for themselves, and I really dont know what evidence you are looking for to support them, unless you want liquipedia links or something. Making my 2 rax openings less effective hurts my early game (to say nothing of Toss's ENHANCED early game potential with Oracle, MSC, buffed voids), having to (usually) play at an upgrade disadvantage hurts the late game. Warpgates are unchanged but only an idiot would say its not helpful to be able to directly reinforce at the point of attack... Maybe the only thing you sort of have a point about is 2), but come on man, I think its pretty much common knowledge that the late game collossus templar deathball is very strong against bio, and that it is easier to fight with than the corresponding Terran army that will counter it. All of these points are pretty much common knowledge, and the reason they get brought up is that Toss has some pretty good advantages throughout the game already, so I don't understand at all why they suddenly need faster warp prisms to go along with them. They can upgrade the damn warp prism speed at the Robo bay as it stands, god forbid they have to forgo thermal lance if they want to rush straight into heavy harass with speed prisms. Do you not understand this point? This doesn't seem like kind of a random thing to buff? You don't get it... You tell us all these things we have, and yet you can't explain why Protoss has no tournament wins in HOTS, why Europe was entirely devoid was Protoss, and why the only reason Korea winrates look ok is because of the teamleagues and why Protoss winrates are lowest across the board. You can describe all these things we have, but at the end of the day Protoss has been shown to be weakest anyways. Regardless, point 4 is where your wrong for one. Defenders advantage in Starcraft 2 comes from more than just travel distance. The ability to create sim city with your buildings to restrict movement as well as those unique things each race gets, I.e. repair for Terran, creep for Zerg, and now the MSC and or warp in for Protoss. If number 4 was an issue, Terran would never hold off Protoss gateways allins because they will have less units automatically while teching and the distance is negated. So why can Terran hold these allins anyways? Repair. Repair creates defenders advantage.
You are right that defenders advantage comes from other things, but repair is not a part of defenders advantage. I can repair anywhere I have buildings. But those allins would be pathetically easy to hold if toss had to either walk his ass across the map or proxy his buildings to get that kind of reinforce time. No other race can build units somewhere other than their production. Its a pretty significant aspect of toss. Also, terran dont have less units than the toss, they have equal, but when you consider that the defender is supposed to have more (since he reinforces faster) you have clearly had some of your advantage taken away by warp gate.
Im not even TRYING to explain why protoss has no tournament wins, mostly because the game has been out for all of 2.5 months. Im looking over the WCS EU field and I don't see any Toss players that are of the same stature as the best Terrans and Zergs, so maybe thats why theyre having a bad showing.
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protoss winrates and showings are low in tournaments right now because of one thing: TERRAN!!
protoss doesnt really have a problem with zerg if they play defensive 3base style and gets 10pheonix with range at 200food before they move up to deal with muta base races.
Rain and other korean tosses have shown that once protoss DOES get their 200food deathball of air / voidrays / few templars for storm / some tempests / some archons etc its practically unbeatable vs zerg and you can get that 200food army off 3bases by 19 minutes, it doesnt matter if the zerg took 8 bases by that point he will lose (also consideirng 3bases actually maxes out your economy, and 8base zerg wont have much more economy than a 3base protoss, and by the time protoss gets his 200food super-deathball thats when his main is drying out and he simply uses his deathball to take a 4th)
ZvP is a massive battle of the zerg trying to stop the deathball from appearing through whatever means he can... once the deathball appears protoss is in a huge advantage in the matchup
I feel protoss seems to be "underperforming" and "showing less" in the tournament numbers simply because the luck of the draw ended up to, through random chance alone, have most of the good protsses end up on average getting knocked out by terran players and thus protoss winrate looks low artificially because they all got knocked out by terrans
I guess this is just my opinion but i feel toss has no issues with zerg at this point. The big thing, broodlords, getting so hard countered by tempests really brought toss back in the matchup
And I guess the prism speed mostly has an impact vs terran.
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On May 30 2013 06:00 jake1138 wrote:Show nested quote +All of these points are pretty much common knowledge, and the reason they get brought up is that Toss has some pretty good advantages throughout the game already, so I don't understand at all why they suddenly need faster warp prisms to go along with them. They can upgrade the damn warp prism speed at the Robo bay as it stands, god forbid they have to forgo thermal lance if they want to rush straight into heavy harass with speed prisms. Do you not understand this point? This doesn't seem like kind of a random thing to buff? When have you ever seen anyone research warp prism speed before thermal lance? If that was somehow a solution to something, why haven't we seen it? I believe the answer is simple. It's not a solution to anything. It's way too risky. Protoss who goes robo must make colossus to survive the initial stim+medivac timing. Having a fast warp prism out on the map, which would delay both colossus and thermal lance, doesn't keep your bases from going down by an unstoppable force. Even if Blizzard gave Protoss fast warp prism speed for free, it still delays colossus production and costs you the equivalent of two zealots, it just won't delay thermal lance.
My point is it seems like they just want Robo toss to have it all. No one would research prism speed before lance because its suicide, and if you wait til after then between the lance research time plus prism speed research time, the window would be closing rapidly. SO what does blizzard suggest? Lets just make the warp prism base speed faster so you can have more efficient midgame harass while not in any way delaying the critical derpossus research.
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On May 30 2013 06:00 jake1138 wrote:Show nested quote +All of these points are pretty much common knowledge, and the reason they get brought up is that Toss has some pretty good advantages throughout the game already, so I don't understand at all why they suddenly need faster warp prisms to go along with them. They can upgrade the damn warp prism speed at the Robo bay as it stands, god forbid they have to forgo thermal lance if they want to rush straight into heavy harass with speed prisms. Do you not understand this point? This doesn't seem like kind of a random thing to buff? When have you ever seen anyone research warp prism speed before thermal lance? If that was somehow a solution to something, why haven't we seen it? I believe the answer is simple. It's not a solution to anything. It's way too risky. Protoss who goes robo must make colossus to survive the initial stim+medivac timing. Having a fast warp prism out on the map, which would delay both colossus and thermal lance, doesn't keep your bases from going down by an unstoppable force. Even if Blizzard gave Protoss fast warp prism speed for free, it still delays colossus production and costs you the equivalent of two zealots, it just won't delay thermal lance.
How exactly does it delay colossus? You can make warp prism when your robo bay isn't yet up and you're not able to make colossi anyway.
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As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
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On May 30 2013 06:14 rikter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 05:48 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 05:26 rikter wrote:On May 30 2013 03:54 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 03:43 rikter wrote:
I really hope they ditch this idea.
I play T, as it is Protoss has been given:
1) Planetary Nexus (that has stupid range and attacks air as well) so early game barracks aggression is kinda hurting
2) The strongest most herp derp lategame unit composition, period (collossus/templar).
3) Cheaper upgrades, which can also be chronoboosted.
4) Warp in mechanic that negates defenders advantage
As it is Im weaker in the early game, the late game, so lets go and buff some of their midgame units too, fuck it. This doesnt break the deathball, it just makes it easier for Protoss to warp in wherever the hell they feel like it instead of having to take a little bit of time and build a damn pylon or run the units across the map like everyone else.
What an overwhelming amount of evidence you've made to support your claims! Extremely impressive argument you've put forward that I definitely haven't read 50,000 other times in the same manner with zero actual evidence to support it. 1) FACT: Protoss has been given planetary Nexus as EVIDENCED by the fact that its in the damn game FACT: The planetary nexus has the range of a siege tank, attacks air, and (one of) its effects in the game is to help protoss against pushes that arent supported by medivacs. 3) FACT go to friggin liquipedia and look at the upgrade costs, you will notice that the Toss upgrades cost less than their Terran counterpart FACT Protoss can use chronoboost on upgrades to get them out faster 4) FACT warpin mechanic negates defenders advantage, period. Thats the whole point of warping in; you can reinforce anywhere you have a pylon so your units dont walk across the map. Units walking across the map is what creates defenders advantage, warping in directly at the enemy base negates this. These three points pretty much speak for themselves, and I really dont know what evidence you are looking for to support them, unless you want liquipedia links or something. Making my 2 rax openings less effective hurts my early game (to say nothing of Toss's ENHANCED early game potential with Oracle, MSC, buffed voids), having to (usually) play at an upgrade disadvantage hurts the late game. Warpgates are unchanged but only an idiot would say its not helpful to be able to directly reinforce at the point of attack... Maybe the only thing you sort of have a point about is 2), but come on man, I think its pretty much common knowledge that the late game collossus templar deathball is very strong against bio, and that it is easier to fight with than the corresponding Terran army that will counter it. All of these points are pretty much common knowledge, and the reason they get brought up is that Toss has some pretty good advantages throughout the game already, so I don't understand at all why they suddenly need faster warp prisms to go along with them. They can upgrade the damn warp prism speed at the Robo bay as it stands, god forbid they have to forgo thermal lance if they want to rush straight into heavy harass with speed prisms. Do you not understand this point? This doesn't seem like kind of a random thing to buff? You don't get it... You tell us all these things we have, and yet you can't explain why Protoss has no tournament wins in HOTS, why Europe was entirely devoid was Protoss, and why the only reason Korea winrates look ok is because of the teamleagues and why Protoss winrates are lowest across the board. You can describe all these things we have, but at the end of the day Protoss has been shown to be weakest anyways. Regardless, point 4 is where your wrong for one. Defenders advantage in Starcraft 2 comes from more than just travel distance. The ability to create sim city with your buildings to restrict movement as well as those unique things each race gets, I.e. repair for Terran, creep for Zerg, and now the MSC and or warp in for Protoss. If number 4 was an issue, Terran would never hold off Protoss gateways allins because they will have less units automatically while teching and the distance is negated. So why can Terran hold these allins anyways? Repair. Repair creates defenders advantage. You are right that defenders advantage comes from other things, but repair is not a part of defenders advantage. I can repair anywhere I have buildings. But those allins would be pathetically easy to hold if toss had to either walk his ass across the map or proxy his buildings to get that kind of reinforce time. No other race can build units somewhere other than their production. Its a pretty significant aspect of toss. Also, terran dont have less units than the toss, they have equal, but when you consider that the defender is supposed to have more (since he reinforces faster) you have clearly had some of your advantage taken away by warp gate. Im not even TRYING to explain why protoss has no tournament wins, mostly because the game has been out for all of 2.5 months. Im looking over the WCS EU field and I don't see any Toss players that are of the same stature as the best Terrans and Zergs, so maybe thats why theyre having a bad showing.
Actually when a Protoss does a gateway allin off 2 base the Protoss will have 6 or 7 warpgates constantly warping in, while Terran might have 3 barracks producing units. That means that Protoss has more units.
And your last argument is absolute CRAP. The "your races players are just bad" argument is yet another method of making an argument where one does not exist. Naniwa was the consensus best foreigner between DH and WCS. Baby knight had been consistently on the rise, and SaSe has been in Korea for a significant amount of time. All 3 of these guys are definitely good enough to be in the top 8. It's also worth mentioning that Finale, a player who had been in Code S couldn't even qualify through the lag yet MVP and MMA had no trouble in their ro32 group through the lag.
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On May 30 2013 06:26 GGzerG wrote:
As if medivac speed isn't hard enough to deal with as Zerg... I think this is going to open way to many doors for Protoss, this is really going to make Protoss super strong when the warp prism's are used correctly.
And you would rather see defend until deathball? Why not open doors for Protoss to do things like micro intensive harass? People don't understand that the reason for the toss all-ins is that they have very few reliable ways to harass. They can't do that economic damage early on like hellions and lings can, so instead they punish greed with very precise all-in timings. While all-ins can be useful, they can't be relied upon. For that reason protoss pros are by far the least consistent of the races. Anyone who plays this game for their livelihood would much rather have a way to play that includes harass and macro to make the best use of their skill. Everyone playing and watching SC2 would benefit from dynamic changes like this.
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On May 30 2013 06:22 OfficeBrahzz wrote:
protoss winrates and showings are low in tournaments right now because of one thing: TERRAN!!
protoss doesnt really have a problem with zerg if they play defensive 3base style and gets 10pheonix with range at 200food before they move up to deal with muta base races.
Rain and other korean tosses have shown that once protoss DOES get their 200food deathball of air / voidrays / few templars for storm / some tempests / some archons etc its practically unbeatable vs zerg and you can get that 200food army off 3bases by 19 minutes, it doesnt matter if the zerg took 8 bases by that point he will lose (also consideirng 3bases actually maxes out your economy, and 8base zerg wont have much more economy than a 3base protoss, and by the time protoss gets his 200food super-deathball thats when his main is drying out and he simply uses his deathball to take a 4th)
ZvP is a massive battle of the zerg trying to stop the deathball from appearing through whatever means he can... once the deathball appears protoss is in a huge advantage in the matchup
I feel protoss seems to be "underperforming" and "showing less" in the tournament numbers simply because the luck of the draw ended up to, through random chance alone, have most of the good protsses end up on average getting knocked out by terran players and thus protoss winrate looks low artificially because they all got knocked out by terrans
I guess this is just my opinion but i feel toss has no issues with zerg at this point. The big thing, broodlords, getting so hard countered by tempests really brought toss back in the matchup
And I guess the prism speed mostly has an impact vs terran.
I'm just going to pretend you forgot about how strong swarmhost, viper, corrupter with possibly some infestors can be.
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Fuck, I accidentally selected "Yes" when I wanted to click "No". I feel so dirty.
I feel like the change buffs Protoss all-ins more than anything else Protoss. Protoss is already really good for all-ins. Probably too strong for all-ins. But too weak for straight-up stuff.
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On May 30 2013 06:29 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 06:14 rikter wrote:On May 30 2013 05:48 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 05:26 rikter wrote:On May 30 2013 03:54 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 03:43 rikter wrote:
I really hope they ditch this idea.
I play T, as it is Protoss has been given:
1) Planetary Nexus (that has stupid range and attacks air as well) so early game barracks aggression is kinda hurting
2) The strongest most herp derp lategame unit composition, period (collossus/templar).
3) Cheaper upgrades, which can also be chronoboosted.
4) Warp in mechanic that negates defenders advantage
As it is Im weaker in the early game, the late game, so lets go and buff some of their midgame units too, fuck it. This doesnt break the deathball, it just makes it easier for Protoss to warp in wherever the hell they feel like it instead of having to take a little bit of time and build a damn pylon or run the units across the map like everyone else.
What an overwhelming amount of evidence you've made to support your claims! Extremely impressive argument you've put forward that I definitely haven't read 50,000 other times in the same manner with zero actual evidence to support it. 1) FACT: Protoss has been given planetary Nexus as EVIDENCED by the fact that its in the damn game FACT: The planetary nexus has the range of a siege tank, attacks air, and (one of) its effects in the game is to help protoss against pushes that arent supported by medivacs. 3) FACT go to friggin liquipedia and look at the upgrade costs, you will notice that the Toss upgrades cost less than their Terran counterpart FACT Protoss can use chronoboost on upgrades to get them out faster 4) FACT warpin mechanic negates defenders advantage, period. Thats the whole point of warping in; you can reinforce anywhere you have a pylon so your units dont walk across the map. Units walking across the map is what creates defenders advantage, warping in directly at the enemy base negates this. These three points pretty much speak for themselves, and I really dont know what evidence you are looking for to support them, unless you want liquipedia links or something. Making my 2 rax openings less effective hurts my early game (to say nothing of Toss's ENHANCED early game potential with Oracle, MSC, buffed voids), having to (usually) play at an upgrade disadvantage hurts the late game. Warpgates are unchanged but only an idiot would say its not helpful to be able to directly reinforce at the point of attack... Maybe the only thing you sort of have a point about is 2), but come on man, I think its pretty much common knowledge that the late game collossus templar deathball is very strong against bio, and that it is easier to fight with than the corresponding Terran army that will counter it. All of these points are pretty much common knowledge, and the reason they get brought up is that Toss has some pretty good advantages throughout the game already, so I don't understand at all why they suddenly need faster warp prisms to go along with them. They can upgrade the damn warp prism speed at the Robo bay as it stands, god forbid they have to forgo thermal lance if they want to rush straight into heavy harass with speed prisms. Do you not understand this point? This doesn't seem like kind of a random thing to buff? You don't get it... You tell us all these things we have, and yet you can't explain why Protoss has no tournament wins in HOTS, why Europe was entirely devoid was Protoss, and why the only reason Korea winrates look ok is because of the teamleagues and why Protoss winrates are lowest across the board. You can describe all these things we have, but at the end of the day Protoss has been shown to be weakest anyways. Regardless, point 4 is where your wrong for one. Defenders advantage in Starcraft 2 comes from more than just travel distance. The ability to create sim city with your buildings to restrict movement as well as those unique things each race gets, I.e. repair for Terran, creep for Zerg, and now the MSC and or warp in for Protoss. If number 4 was an issue, Terran would never hold off Protoss gateways allins because they will have less units automatically while teching and the distance is negated. So why can Terran hold these allins anyways? Repair. Repair creates defenders advantage. You are right that defenders advantage comes from other things, but repair is not a part of defenders advantage. I can repair anywhere I have buildings. But those allins would be pathetically easy to hold if toss had to either walk his ass across the map or proxy his buildings to get that kind of reinforce time. No other race can build units somewhere other than their production. Its a pretty significant aspect of toss. Also, terran dont have less units than the toss, they have equal, but when you consider that the defender is supposed to have more (since he reinforces faster) you have clearly had some of your advantage taken away by warp gate. Im not even TRYING to explain why protoss has no tournament wins, mostly because the game has been out for all of 2.5 months. Im looking over the WCS EU field and I don't see any Toss players that are of the same stature as the best Terrans and Zergs, so maybe thats why theyre having a bad showing. Actually when a Protoss does a gateway allin off 2 base the Protoss will have 6 or 7 warpgates constantly warping in, while Terran might have 3 barracks producing units. That means that Protoss has more units. And your last argument is absolute CRAP. The "your races players are just bad" argument is yet another method of making an argument where one does not exist. Naniwa was the consensus best foreigner between DH and WCS. Baby knight had been consistently on the rise, and SaSe has been in Korea for a significant amount of time. All 3 of these guys are definitely good enough to be in the top 8. It's also worth mentioning that Finale, a player who had been in Code S couldn't even qualify through the lag yet MVP and MMA had no trouble in their ro32 group through the lag.
Dude, if you all in vs my eco play you have more units. In general, it is not hard at all to match your production, and I am going to have more than 3 barracks when your 2 base all in hits...theres addons, a factory etc. You seem to be willfully ignoring the simple point: warpgate negates defenders advantage.
Dude, read the post again. I didnt say they were bad, I said they werent as good as the better terrans and zergs. Socke? Naniwa? Babyknight? Strong players, but no Luci, Stephano, MMA, MVP. To me, they are about thorzains equal, and I certainly wouldnt be upset if T had a weak showing if thorzain was my ace. They arent bad players, but they are a cut below in the pro ranks, as far as I am concerned. The sample size is so small that its foolish to try and draw definite conclusions from it anyways...but seriously, I dont see how you could look at the WCS EU field and think the Toss were gonna carry the day....
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NO NONONO
Nonononono
ohh god pls dont blizzard
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On May 30 2013 05:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 05:38 aZealot wrote:
Wow, looking over this thread, the amount of over-reaction - especially by Zerg and Terran.
It is a minor buff to the warp-prism. Protoss fighting units have not received a buff in any way, shape or form. Even the buff is a projected one which, if it does what Blizzard hopes, may be adjusted. It will help Protoss drop play but Protoss will still have the issue of what to drop. If we are talking of Immortal/Colossus/HT drops backed up by sacrificial Zealot warp-ins then this will be good for the game (both from a player and spectator point of view). It will also increase the skill level of Protoss play which, apparently, a lot of people have been wanting for a long time (just not in this way - or so it seems). It is unlikely to have a substantive effect on the efficacy of Protoss all-ins because while the WP is faster the units are not produced any faster, production units are not built faster, tech structures are not built faster, resources are not built faster etc.
Calm down and see how it goes. It's a minor buff that may enhance Protoss play - specifically for a minority of Protoss players with the skill to use WP well. For most of us ladder monkeys, it is not going to be easy. It won't break the game. Well, I believe it is actually a major buff. Like, medivac boosters were a major buff for Terran. I'd rather have them just straight up buff the speed and the upgraded speed: 2.5-->2.75 or 3.0 normal speed upgrade: +0.875-->1.0 speed buff which would still buff both, the warp prism and the speed prism.
I don't agree. It's not like, after all, the WP can pick up units for escape and also heal them. Even the drop effectiveness of zealots in the early/midgame will be dependant on the number of gates available. If it is two Immortals or a single Colossus, like I said, this is something that should be seen more. If a faster WP enables that, so be it. I don't believe this will be a major buff because it is limited to one tech path, and requires a substantial amount of skill to execute effectively.
That said, I don't disagree with your suggestions above, either. I do dislike when upgrades are removed from the game.
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Can a Mod delete this, please? I am having a shocker...
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Damn - accidental repost.
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On May 30 2013 06:25 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 06:00 jake1138 wrote:All of these points are pretty much common knowledge, and the reason they get brought up is that Toss has some pretty good advantages throughout the game already, so I don't understand at all why they suddenly need faster warp prisms to go along with them. They can upgrade the damn warp prism speed at the Robo bay as it stands, god forbid they have to forgo thermal lance if they want to rush straight into heavy harass with speed prisms. Do you not understand this point? This doesn't seem like kind of a random thing to buff? When have you ever seen anyone research warp prism speed before thermal lance? If that was somehow a solution to something, why haven't we seen it? I believe the answer is simple. It's not a solution to anything. It's way too risky. Protoss who goes robo must make colossus to survive the initial stim+medivac timing. Having a fast warp prism out on the map, which would delay both colossus and thermal lance, doesn't keep your bases from going down by an unstoppable force. Even if Blizzard gave Protoss fast warp prism speed for free, it still delays colossus production and costs you the equivalent of two zealots, it just won't delay thermal lance. How exactly does it delay colossus? You can make warp prism when your robo bay isn't yet up and you're not able to make colossi anyway.
You mean the time when you need to get out a couple observers so you can actually scout what Terran is doing?
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EPT
