|
On May 30 2013 02:45 WindCalibur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:On May 30 2013 02:26 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 02:01 Plansix wrote:On May 30 2013 01:56 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 01:56 Plansix wrote:On May 30 2013 01:52 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:
So we can just take these stats, put them next to the Korean stats for proleague/WCS Korea and determine that protoss are slightly under preforming and need a tiny bit of a buff? No. You know what would have happened in Korea if Terran had received some kind of buff(s) because non-Korean Terrans were underperforming? Leave the game alone for a few extra months. Unless terran is losing, then buff them right away so we don't end up with end of WoL part 2. You are strong in the bias my son, strong. Sorry, where exactly did I ask for any Terran buff? You don't need to, they are winning right now. But if the positions were reversed, you would be saying a similar buff was to minor. No need to change the game while terran is winning. Straw man + Nostradamus syndrome won't hide the logical failure behind your position. Asking a buff based on one season played on one region which doesn't even feature the best players in the world is preposterous. So can we base it on the fact that Protoss hasn't won a single hots tournament yet or that 2 of 3 regions are are showing clear under representation? And America is the weakest region. Give up, he wants to wait 6-12 months until protoss until there are no protoss in the top 16 in premier league for any region so we can be 100% sure that protoss is, in fact, doing poorly. Because that was awesome at the end of WoL with infestors. I don't see the point in buffing protoss right now, at all. It has been shown that there are top players capable of beating top terrans and zergs (Rain, sOs) and that they are doing very well in proleague. Sure, they aren't doing as well as terran or zergs in solo leagues, but they aren't being dismantled either. Let me remind you that sOs could have been in the finals of GSL korea if he played just a tiny bit better. But lets think about the repercussions of not buffing protoss. Worst case scenerio is that there will be an exodus of frustrated and demoralized protoss players who are tired of looking at their protoss heros fall. However, I do not think we are nearly at that point yet, considering how well protoss is doing in proleague, which accounts for a large majority of top tier play. It is also possible that not buffing protoss might actually give an unfair advantage to other races in leagues if protoss is truly unbalanced. However, these are all speculation. On the other hand, lets think about the repercussions of buffing protoss. Worst case is that something simple like this can result in an huge change in win ratio. Whether the reason be that protoss figure out something with the warp prism that is abusive or simply that this change uncovers some strategies that were overlooked, you cannot rule out that this is a possibility. Right now, on ladder and everywhere, there are an abundance of protoss players. Should blizzard risk balance by patching based on results and statistics? They should, if it is prevalent enough to be conclusive. However, the problem is that this is NOT enough to be conclusive. This is what TheDwf is trying to point out. Statistics currently for starcraft 2 can be skewed and heavily affected by individual outliers and differences between skills of players. This is why Blizzard is trying to be so careful.
You do realize they are not buffing the stalker or zealot base damage. They are just testing to see if increasing the warp prism speed promotes more drop play through out the match ups and promote more aggressive play. This isn't world shattering stuff here and its only being tested.
|
On May 30 2013 02:48 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 02:01 Plansix wrote:On May 30 2013 01:56 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 01:56 Plansix wrote:On May 30 2013 01:52 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:
So we can just take these stats, put them next to the Korean stats for proleague/WCS Korea and determine that protoss are slightly under preforming and need a tiny bit of a buff? No. You know what would have happened in Korea if Terran had received some kind of buff(s) because non-Korean Terrans were underperforming? Leave the game alone for a few extra months. Unless terran is losing, then buff them right away so we don't end up with end of WoL part 2. You are strong in the bias my son, strong. Sorry, where exactly did I ask for any Terran buff? You don't need to, they are winning right now. But if the positions were reversed, you would be saying a similar buff was to minor. No need to change the game while terran is winning. Straw man + Nostradamus syndrome won't hide the logical failure behind your position. Asking a buff based on one season played on one region which doesn't even feature the best players in the world is preposterous. You don't think you are heavily biased? Just looking at your posts on balance since December makes it obvious enough you're focused on your race rather than the game's health. You're that self-aware right?
He's the TL terran hope in WCS EU challenger league qualifiers - he needs to be focused on his race 
|
On May 30 2013 02:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:45 WindCalibur wrote:On May 30 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote:On May 30 2013 02:26 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 02:01 Plansix wrote:On May 30 2013 01:56 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 01:56 Plansix wrote:On May 30 2013 01:52 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:
So we can just take these stats, put them next to the Korean stats for proleague/WCS Korea and determine that protoss are slightly under preforming and need a tiny bit of a buff? No. You know what would have happened in Korea if Terran had received some kind of buff(s) because non-Korean Terrans were underperforming? Leave the game alone for a few extra months. Unless terran is losing, then buff them right away so we don't end up with end of WoL part 2. You are strong in the bias my son, strong. Sorry, where exactly did I ask for any Terran buff? You don't need to, they are winning right now. But if the positions were reversed, you would be saying a similar buff was to minor. No need to change the game while terran is winning. Straw man + Nostradamus syndrome won't hide the logical failure behind your position. Asking a buff based on one season played on one region which doesn't even feature the best players in the world is preposterous. So can we base it on the fact that Protoss hasn't won a single hots tournament yet or that 2 of 3 regions are are showing clear under representation? And America is the weakest region. Give up, he wants to wait 6-12 months until protoss until there are no protoss in the top 16 in premier league for any region so we can be 100% sure that protoss is, in fact, doing poorly. Because that was awesome at the end of WoL with infestors. I don't see the point in buffing protoss right now, at all. It has been shown that there are top players capable of beating top terrans and zergs (Rain, sOs) and that they are doing very well in proleague. Sure, they aren't doing as well as terran or zergs in solo leagues, but they aren't being dismantled either. Let me remind you that sOs could have been in the finals of GSL korea if he played just a tiny bit better. But lets think about the repercussions of not buffing protoss. Worst case scenerio is that there will be an exodus of frustrated and demoralized protoss players who are tired of looking at their protoss heros fall. However, I do not think we are nearly at that point yet, considering how well protoss is doing in proleague, which accounts for a large majority of top tier play. It is also possible that not buffing protoss might actually give an unfair advantage to other races in leagues if protoss is truly unbalanced. However, these are all speculation. On the other hand, lets think about the repercussions of buffing protoss. Worst case is that something simple like this can result in an huge change in win ratio. Whether the reason be that protoss figure out something with the warp prism that is abusive or simply that this change uncovers some strategies that were overlooked, you cannot rule out that this is a possibility. Right now, on ladder and everywhere, there are an abundance of protoss players. Should blizzard risk balance by patching based on results and statistics? They should, if it is prevalent enough to be conclusive. However, the problem is that this is NOT enough to be conclusive. This is what TheDwf is trying to point out. Statistics currently for starcraft 2 can be skewed and heavily affected by individual outliers and differences between skills of players. This is why Blizzard is trying to be so careful. You do realize they are not buffing the stalker or zealot base damage. They are just testing to see if increasing the warp prism speed promotes more drop play through out the match ups and promote more aggressive play. This isn't world shattering stuff here and its only being tested.
Of course I understand this. This should give protoss more options while not making them unbalanced. They need to be careful so thats why they are trying to test this thoroughly before anything is done. However, I am just pointing out why some people might be upset when people act as if this buff is a must as if protoss is underperforming severely.
|
On May 30 2013 02:04 Creem wrote:
This is a step in the right direction. Now if only Blizzard could remove warpgates, and only allow warpins through warp prisms, toss would actually be an enjoyable and entertaining race to watch/play.
I dont know if this would work in any way shape or form....but it sounds pretty interesting 
|
On May 30 2013 02:20 Plansix wrote:
Citing argument falsies you looked up on Wikipedia does not make me incorrect. There is overwhelming evidence in this thread that you do not want any buffs for protoss, feel they are strong against terran and are willing to disregard any evidence that protoss are doing poorly. That is more than enough to make a case that you are bias toward terran and would gladly accept a buff if it was being tested.
Your way to argue is mind-boggling, always dodging the point and putting words in the others' mouths. For my position, I can't explain it any clearer than what I already said: Leave the game alone for a few extra months.
On May 30 2013 02:48 Sabu113 wrote:
You don't think you are heavily biased?
Just looking at your posts on balance since December makes it obvious enough you're focused on your race rather than the game's health. You're that self-aware right?
Yes, this is called "talking about stuff you know". I am Terran, why would I argue about PvZ, ZvZ or PvP when I have no knowledge there? If only some other people around here had the courtesy to do the same, it would be nice.
|
On May 30 2013 02:57 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:20 Plansix wrote:
Citing argument falsies you looked up on Wikipedia does not make me incorrect. There is overwhelming evidence in this thread that you do not want any buffs for protoss, feel they are strong against terran and are willing to disregard any evidence that protoss are doing poorly. That is more than enough to make a case that you are bias toward terran and would gladly accept a buff if it was being tested. Your way to argue is mind-boggling, always dodging the point and putting words in the others' mouths. For my position, I can't explain it any clearer than what I already said: Leave the game alone for a few extra months. Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:48 Sabu113 wrote:
You don't think you are heavily biased?
Just looking at your posts on balance since December makes it obvious enough you're focused on your race rather than the game's health. You're that self-aware right? Yes, this is called "talking about stuff you know". I am Terran, why would I argue about PvZ, ZvZ or PvP when I have no knowledge there? If only some other people around here had the courtesy to do the same, it would be nice.
You really don't like people do you
|
On May 30 2013 02:57 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:20 Plansix wrote:
Citing argument falsies you looked up on Wikipedia does not make me incorrect. There is overwhelming evidence in this thread that you do not want any buffs for protoss, feel they are strong against terran and are willing to disregard any evidence that protoss are doing poorly. That is more than enough to make a case that you are bias toward terran and would gladly accept a buff if it was being tested. Your way to argue is mind-boggling, always dodging the point and putting words in the others' mouths. For my position, I can't explain it any clearer than what I already said: Leave the game alone for a few extra months.
And people disagree with you and point out that protoss performance is pretty poor in two regions and a minor buff might be in order. Also people have disagreed about the "wait and see", citing the era of BL-infestor has a product of not addressing an issue early. And if you hadn't started out with the phrase "ignorant protoss like you" I might not have argued in such a fashion.
|
On May 30 2013 03:00 00higgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:57 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 02:20 Plansix wrote:
Citing argument falsies you looked up on Wikipedia does not make me incorrect. There is overwhelming evidence in this thread that you do not want any buffs for protoss, feel they are strong against terran and are willing to disregard any evidence that protoss are doing poorly. That is more than enough to make a case that you are bias toward terran and would gladly accept a buff if it was being tested. Your way to argue is mind-boggling, always dodging the point and putting words in the others' mouths. For my position, I can't explain it any clearer than what I already said: Leave the game alone for a few extra months. On May 30 2013 02:48 Sabu113 wrote:
You don't think you are heavily biased?
Just looking at your posts on balance since December makes it obvious enough you're focused on your race rather than the game's health. You're that self-aware right? Yes, this is called "talking about stuff you know". I am Terran, why would I argue about PvZ, ZvZ or PvP when I have no knowledge there? If only some other people around here had the courtesy to do the same, it would be nice. You really don't like people do you
What did he do to make you think that? It kind of annoys me when people makes assumptions and put words in other people's mouth. What he says makes logical sense. He plays Terran and wants his race to do well. He feels we should wait longer before any balance changes happen, which makes sense considering what happened at the end of WOL. Is it wrong for him to also not talk or argue about match-ups that he is not familiar with?
|
I really am for buffing instead of nerfing but I think it will rather support gimmicky play than any valid strategies on this. Sure late game harassment will be strong w/ speed warpprism, but you willl have speed for it at that point anyways. So I don't think that it will work against the "deathball" so yeah I am not a huge fan of that but let's see what, say parting could do w7 it.
|
On May 30 2013 03:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:57 TheDwf wrote:On May 30 2013 02:20 Plansix wrote:
Citing argument falsies you looked up on Wikipedia does not make me incorrect. There is overwhelming evidence in this thread that you do not want any buffs for protoss, feel they are strong against terran and are willing to disregard any evidence that protoss are doing poorly. That is more than enough to make a case that you are bias toward terran and would gladly accept a buff if it was being tested. Your way to argue is mind-boggling, always dodging the point and putting words in the others' mouths. For my position, I can't explain it any clearer than what I already said: Leave the game alone for a few extra months. And people disagree with you and point out that protoss performance is pretty poor in two regions and a minor buff might be in order. Also people have disagreed about the "wait and see", citing the era of BL-infestor has a product of not addressing an issue early. And if you hadn't started out with the phrase "ignorant protoss like you" I might not have argued in such a fashion.
Before talking about the broods/infests era, call me the day non-Korean T/Z pros win series against the likes of Rain, sOs, PartinG, etc. Then you can make the comparison.
If you don't want to be called "ignorant," don't depict Terran players as "MULEs addicts" while you have no knowledge about how the race functions.
|
On May 30 2013 01:11 saltis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 02:33 ReMiiX wrote:
I want medivacs to have speed boost all the time.
Seriously though, with the old buff on warp prism health this would be way way way to difficult to beat. Maybe if they dropped shield or health I could see the speed increase being fair. If protoss can figure out how to stop the speed vacs, I am sure terran can figure out how to stop a speed prism. Its not like it is going to warp in two hellbats. Yeah, its going to warp 5 dts.
whew, at least it's not hellbats.
|
On May 30 2013 03:20 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 01:11 saltis wrote:On May 29 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 02:33 ReMiiX wrote:
I want medivacs to have speed boost all the time.
Seriously though, with the old buff on warp prism health this would be way way way to difficult to beat. Maybe if they dropped shield or health I could see the speed increase being fair. If protoss can figure out how to stop the speed vacs, I am sure terran can figure out how to stop a speed prism. Its not like it is going to warp in two hellbats. Yeah, its going to warp 5 dts. whew, at least it's not hellbats.
Can you imgaine speedwarpprism warping in hellbats in your mineral line?
|
On May 30 2013 03:23 emanresU wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 03:20 lorestarcraft wrote:On May 30 2013 01:11 saltis wrote:On May 29 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 02:33 ReMiiX wrote:
I want medivacs to have speed boost all the time.
Seriously though, with the old buff on warp prism health this would be way way way to difficult to beat. Maybe if they dropped shield or health I could see the speed increase being fair. If protoss can figure out how to stop the speed vacs, I am sure terran can figure out how to stop a speed prism. Its not like it is going to warp in two hellbats. Yeah, its going to warp 5 dts. whew, at least it's not hellbats. Can you imgaine speedwarpprism warping in hellbats in your mineral line?
you can't because you would die of suffering and fear
|
On May 30 2013 02:03 Decrith wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 01:52 wUndertUnge wrote:On May 30 2013 01:46 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think buffing prisms is a good idea. I think reducing swarm host locust damage and lifespan and reducing the amount of speed the afterburners give would both be a much better route. Reducing the viability of other race’s units and diminishing the options and breadth of play is a step in the wrong direction, IMO. Buffing and opening possibilities of play is much better. This doesn’t mean that I necessarily agree with this buff, but we’ll see after the test map comes out. Totally agree, its always a better buff something instead of nerfing because it makes the game more interesting. If everything was nerfed down, we'd ALL be seeing deathball style plays. As dayvie said, they want the game to be more dynamics, to have lots of options, nerfing something is an easy way to balance the game, but it discourage the very objective that they want. On a personal note, I agree Warp Prism is under used, and a buff sounds great, I just hope this doesn't make all-ins a lot more stronger, and whatever the case will be, whether it will be a full upgrade WP or a slightly buffed no upgrade WP, I'm all for it, because right now its pretty hard to do drops without over committing to it.
Need to modify you statement: Buff harass-units --> Less deathball.
Buff static defenses --> More deathballs
It simply depends on what type of units you buff. Warp prism will probably create more fun games, but whether it creates imbalanced situation is a bit uncertain.
|
Well, I think we got a problem here:
Protoss perform pretty damn well in PvZ in Korea (GSL AND Proleague above 50% by quite a bit) and decent in PvT (pretty close to 50%, a little bit below) but they're just not performing well at all in Europe.
I'm just wondering which tournaments Blizzard took in consideration for the statement that the Protoss are underperforming on the highest level of play in Korea. The amount of Protoss is pretty damn low but that's not a result of the current state of the game, because all the qualifiers for Code S Season 1 were played in WoL. And in Code S as well as in Code A, the winrate of the Protoss players is above the winrates of the other two races.
|
Vatican City State431 Posts
Protoss is "under-performing" because the qualifiers for WCS happened during WOL when Zerg was dominating everything and you had fewer Protosses in the later stages to start with. It's not like Protoss players are helpless vs other races. So you didn't had any Protoss wining a tournament in the first months of Hots. So what? It's also about skill, maps, luck etc.
BTW: Protoss has plenty of harassing options, they are just too complacent in building their death ball and lose because of timing attacks or harassing.
|
I really hope they ditch this idea.
I play T, as it is Protoss has been given:
1) Planetary Nexus (that has stupid range and attacks air as well) so early game barracks aggression is kinda hurting
2) The strongest most herp derp lategame unit composition, period (collossus/templar).
3) Cheaper upgrades, which can also be chronoboosted.
4) Warp in mechanic that negates defenders advantage
As it is Im weaker in the early game, the late game, so lets go and buff some of their midgame units too, fuck it. This doesnt break the deathball, it just makes it easier for Protoss to warp in wherever the hell they feel like it instead of having to take a little bit of time and build a damn pylon or run the units across the map like everyone else.
|
On May 30 2013 03:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:03 Decrith wrote:On May 30 2013 01:52 wUndertUnge wrote:On May 30 2013 01:46 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think buffing prisms is a good idea. I think reducing swarm host locust damage and lifespan and reducing the amount of speed the afterburners give would both be a much better route. Reducing the viability of other race’s units and diminishing the options and breadth of play is a step in the wrong direction, IMO. Buffing and opening possibilities of play is much better. This doesn’t mean that I necessarily agree with this buff, but we’ll see after the test map comes out. Totally agree, its always a better buff something instead of nerfing because it makes the game more interesting. If everything was nerfed down, we'd ALL be seeing deathball style plays. As dayvie said, they want the game to be more dynamics, to have lots of options, nerfing something is an easy way to balance the game, but it discourage the very objective that they want. On a personal note, I agree Warp Prism is under used, and a buff sounds great, I just hope this doesn't make all-ins a lot more stronger, and whatever the case will be, whether it will be a full upgrade WP or a slightly buffed no upgrade WP, I'm all for it, because right now its pretty hard to do drops without over committing to it. Need to modify you statement: Buff harass-units --> Less deathball. Buff static defenses --> More deathballs It simply depends on what type of units you buff. Warp prism will probably create more fun games, but whether it creates imbalanced situation is a bit uncertain.
Yeah but the question is, does it even NEED a buff? Why not David Kim simply come out and say they think one of the reasons toss is suffering a bit at the very top level is because they aren't dropping...
|
On May 30 2013 03:45 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 03:32 Hider wrote:On May 30 2013 02:03 Decrith wrote:On May 30 2013 01:52 wUndertUnge wrote:On May 30 2013 01:46 Drowsy wrote:
I don't think buffing prisms is a good idea. I think reducing swarm host locust damage and lifespan and reducing the amount of speed the afterburners give would both be a much better route. Reducing the viability of other race’s units and diminishing the options and breadth of play is a step in the wrong direction, IMO. Buffing and opening possibilities of play is much better. This doesn’t mean that I necessarily agree with this buff, but we’ll see after the test map comes out. Totally agree, its always a better buff something instead of nerfing because it makes the game more interesting. If everything was nerfed down, we'd ALL be seeing deathball style plays. As dayvie said, they want the game to be more dynamics, to have lots of options, nerfing something is an easy way to balance the game, but it discourage the very objective that they want. On a personal note, I agree Warp Prism is under used, and a buff sounds great, I just hope this doesn't make all-ins a lot more stronger, and whatever the case will be, whether it will be a full upgrade WP or a slightly buffed no upgrade WP, I'm all for it, because right now its pretty hard to do drops without over committing to it. Need to modify you statement: Buff harass-units --> Less deathball. Buff static defenses --> More deathballs It simply depends on what type of units you buff. Warp prism will probably create more fun games, but whether it creates imbalanced situation is a bit uncertain. Yeah but the question is, does it even NEED a buff? Why not David Kim simply come out and say they think one of the reasons toss is suffering a bit at the very top level is because they aren't dropping...
Why must he be so specific?
He says that blizzard is not happy with how protoss is looking. So they're trying to change the way it plays to one they prefer.
|
On May 30 2013 03:35 Swisslink wrote:
Well, I think we got a problem here:
Protoss perform pretty damn well in PvZ in Korea (GSL AND Proleague above 50% by quite a bit) and decent in PvT (pretty close to 50%, a little bit below) but they're just not performing well at all in Europe.
I'm just wondering which tournaments Blizzard took in consideration for the statement that the Protoss are underperforming on the highest level of play in Korea. The amount of Protoss is pretty damn low but that's not a result of the current state of the game, because all the qualifiers for Code S Season 1 were played in WoL. And in Code S as well as in Code A, the winrate of the Protoss players is above the winrates of the other two races.
What GSL are you watching? Protoss is definitely not the highest winrate in GSL. They are even or slightly below in both their matches.
And please for the love of Flash stop referencing Proleague. The bo1 format is inherently advantageous to the gimmicky plays that Protoss can make, and team leagues are filled with sniper builds, gimmicky rushes etc. bo1 team leagues are not valid indicators of balance whatsoever
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
