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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 30 2013 01:05 TheDwf wrote: Good job complaining about the TvP winrate when Mvp represents a third of the wins there. MVP is in the challenger league? Because they have the same win rate and he didn't kick the shit out of any of those protoss. Also does he play Zerg? Because protoss can't seem to beat them either in EU. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 30 2013 01:07 Plansix wrote: MVP is in the challenger league? Because they have the same win rate and he didn't kick the shit out of any of those protoss. Also does he play Zerg? Because protoss can't seem to beat them either in EU. Since the bold was apparently not enough, let me try a second time: On May 30 2013 01:05 TheDwf wrote: Good job complaining about the TvP winrate when Mvp represents a third of the wins there. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
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saltis
159 Posts
On May 29 2013 02:35 Plansix wrote: If protoss can figure out how to stop the speed vacs, I am sure terran can figure out how to stop a speed prism. Its not like it is going to warp in two hellbats. Yeah, its going to warp 5 dts. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 30 2013 01:10 TheDwf wrote: Since the bold was apparently not enough, let me try a second time: You still didn't explain the other win rates. Or do those not count because the protoss there were under preforming or not the top tier? What about all the zerg win rates? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
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Pazuzu
United States632 Posts
If they are able to warp in 5 dts (600 gas, on top of the gas for robotics facility for prism, twilight council, dark shrine, etc), its not an early game build so it should be easy to hold off | ||
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Decrith
Philippines46 Posts
Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? A very early warp prism play with 5 dts means he went for a robo AND a Dark Shrine, even with a speed upgrade, the route in which you take that is very very expensive and the only way I can think you can get away with that is if T turtles or doesn't scout at all. EDIT: By the time that warp drop arrives, you either have killed his base, have a strong army to defend, or both. | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
ye, lets see just zealots all over every game and noone moving out throught he sheer threat of a 1000 mineral dump warp in potentially over 3 bases. ye, | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 30 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote: You still didn't explain the other win rates. Or do those not count because the protoss there were under preforming or not the top tier? What about all the zerg win rates? Sorry, what is there to explain exactly on those glorious 30-40 games sample sizes involving people whose skill varies wildly? Are we really to determine balance based on things such as Mvp 2:0'ing Siw? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 30 2013 01:28 TheDwf wrote: Sorry, what is there to explain exactly on those glorious 30-40 games sample sizes involving people whose skill varies wildly? Are we really to determine balance based on things such as Mvp 2:0'ing Siw? So we can just take these stats, put them next to the Korean stats for proleague/WCS Korea and determine that protoss are slightly under preforming and need a tiny bit of a buff? Or is nothing good enough for you and you just don't want to see protoss get a minor buff because its a bad match up for you? | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On May 30 2013 00:43 Wingblade wrote: LOL the stats you posted are actually just flat wrong! Here's the REAL stats for WCS EU as presented by liquipedia. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series/Statistics Premiere: PvT 32.4%, PvZ 40.0% Challenger: PvT 30.0%, PvZ 41.4% Not sure where you got your information from. Jeez I didn't know it was that drastic. And shame on the fella who fabricated the numbers. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On May 30 2013 01:28 TheDwf wrote: Sorry, what is there to explain exactly on those glorious 30-40 games sample sizes involving people whose skill varies wildly? Are we really to determine balance based on things such as Mvp 2:0'ing Siw? Ah yes the MVP rule. Or as I like to call it the "I don't have an argument so I'm going to discredit the other person because hey MVP was there" The Mvp rule is your best attempt at an argument. That hasn't been valid since he got booted from the GSL. Sure he's stills a very good player, but not good enough to immediatedly cancel out legitimate problems. This is the first good result f or him in hots and it comes as Terrans are figuring out the metagame and starting to win a lot more. Coincidence? So can we use the Rain rule to automatically throw put Proleague since he has been so dominant there? | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On May 30 2013 00:19 Fig wrote: We NEVER see it as is, what makes you think it will go from 0 usage to 100%? And wouldn't it be a GOOD thing if this happened? Everyone complains that the toss deathball is too strong, well this means that one of those Colossi is not with it. Hooray!!! Everyone complains that toss doesn't need more damaging units to add to the deathball, well the warp prism doesn't even have an attack. You'd think it would be the perfect compromise unit to buff. Hooray!!! Everyone complains that toss does nothing but a-move, well this allows them to do some micro intensive and very expensive harass to make games more dynamic. Hooray!!! I don't understand how so many people can have double standards. "Toss is a stupid and boring and easy race to play, but we don't want Blizzard to add more skill to it, and we don't want Blizzard to add more options that allow branching out from the deathball." Even if this unbalances the game, if it makes it more dynamic that's all that matters. Balance can be readjusted in so many ways. It's not a double standard. It's a play that will allow the colossus tech Protoss to put terran on the back foot, potentially out-expand the terran, and then shuttle the Colossus back to the deathball for a big engagement. Of course more micro/multitasking for Protoss would be a good thing, but having stimless and vikingless bio chase down a speed warp prism while getting units sniped will feel incredibly futile. And @ the person who thinks widow mines, you can see those when they are planning a shot, so with proper control u can back away before it fires, furthermore, you can choose a new spot to drop. Widow mines have far less range than turrets, which are also going to be relatively ineffective and costly at dealing with that kind of harass. It could lead to a lot of 2 rax openers (zatic build, Polt build famously used to kill MC, etc.), but I have a hard time imagining how Terran is going to get a lot out of that build, with Mothership cores in the picture when it comes to early aggression. In other words, I don't think 2rax will become some stable build that terrans rely on to get into mid/late game while keeping up on economy. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 30 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote: So we can just take these stats, put them next to the Korean stats for proleague/WCS Korea and determine that protoss are slightly under preforming and need a tiny bit of a buff? No. You know what would have happened in Korea if Terran had received some kind of buff(s) because non-Korean Terrans were underperforming? Leave the game alone for a few extra months. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1126 Posts
On May 30 2013 01:46 Drowsy wrote: I don't think buffing prisms is a good idea. I think reducing swarm host locust damage and lifespan and reducing the amount of speed the afterburners give would both be a much better route. Reducing the viability of other race’s units and diminishing the options and breadth of play is a step in the wrong direction, IMO. Buffing and opening possibilities of play is much better. This doesn’t mean that I necessarily agree with this buff, but we’ll see after the test map comes out. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 30 2013 01:52 TheDwf wrote: No. You know what would have happened in Korea if Terran had received some kind of buff(s) because non-Korean Terrans were underperforming? Leave the game alone for a few extra months. Unless terran is losing, then buff them right away so we don't end up with end of WoL part 2. You are strong in the bias my son, strong. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 30 2013 01:45 Wingblade wrote: Ah yes the MVP rule. Or as I like to call it the "I don't have an argument so I'm going to discredit the other person because hey MVP was there" The Mvp rule is your best attempt at an argument. That hasn't been valid since he got booted from the GSL. Sure he's stills a very good player, but not good enough to immediatedly cancel out legitimate problems. This is the first good result f or him in hots and it comes as Terrans are figuring out the metagame and starting to win a lot more. Coincidence? So can we use the Rain rule to automatically throw put Proleague since he has been so dominant there? If you can't understand that Mvp beating Siw, SaSe or Socke is hardly any proof of "PvT imbalance," what can I do for you? Same as no one in their right mind should complain about Rain beating say, err, aLive or someone like that. There is no "Mvp rule," you just don't draw any conclusions when there's such a skill gap between two players, regardless of their races. | ||
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