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On May 29 2013 23:15 Swift118 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:05 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:53 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:42 Big J wrote:On May 29 2013 22:37 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:11 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:01 00higgo wrote:On May 29 2013 21:57 Beatmania wrote:
This change is ridiculous. Protoss really do not need this and it will not change anything other than giving Terran more ways to lose or be behind in the first 13 minutes. Terran already have to prepare for so much with lack of good scouting and are severely punished if they make the wrong calls. There is no reason Protoss can't use warp prism as it is in the same capacity and the ability to use it even earlier in a matchup that revolves around Terran having to scout perfectly seems insane.
Also Protoss have good harass/pressure options already. MSC stalker pushes, Blink builds, Oracles, Phoenix, DTs, Proxy plays. And then a vast array of all ins. Terran all ins consist of reaper, BitbyBitPrimes, 111, and 3 rax stim. All of which are ridiculously easy for protoss to scout and defend. I just really hope this change doesn't go through. I must be mis understanding, Terran has a lack of good scouting options? The main problem is that terrans are addicted to mules and can't kick the habit. Any time they see a potential all in, they think: "Damn, I need more money for more units. MORE MULES!!!!". They can't cut back, because they need those mules so bad. The main problem is ignorant Protoss like you thinking they're smarter than Terrans (who actually play their race instead of theorycrafting 24/7 on forums about how Terrans are supposedly "dumb" or "greedy"). Terrans don't or rarely scan to scout in early game because scans are a total gamble. They might see everything, they might see something, they might see nothing. Such a pity that IPL didn't upload the VODs of the IPTL grandfinals; I would link a screenshot of Bang's scan against MC on Atlas each time the inevitable uninformed "lol scans" nonsense (which, surprise surprise, is always brought up by non-Terrans) comes back in those discussions. Tech can be proxied anywhere or simply in a corner of the base (but which one?). Which is why Terrans didn't wait random armchair coaches to find solutions and started playing Reapers to see a bit more in the dark out there. And yes, Terrans badly need MULEs because, you know, they don't have any way to hasten their worker production + have some of them busy building on top of having an expensive infrastructure; try to idle 5 of your probes for 90 seconds and tell me how your build order goes. not true. I can name 2 Terrans that scan much more than the others. That nearly always scan at certain early timings (like against roach/bane) to see an allin coming. Their names are Flash and Innovation. Why exactly do you say "not true" and talk about TvZ when I was discussing TvP early game scans? Plus observers/VODs don't always show scans so I doubt you have a way to know. The simple fact of the matter is that if you think a protoss setting up an all-in, a scan is a good option. There is always a point in the game where the information is more valuable than the 300 mineral mule. If you can't get the info through other means, the scan is unstoppable and a viable option. Its on the only thing you should be doing if your "all-in sense" in tingling, but is is one of them. A typical scenario is to scan and see the amount of gases (which your scv has already probably scouted) and 3 gates. Which is pretty predictable if the Protoss is still on one base. Other tech is usually hidden and you might get lucky with scan and see the other tech, but luck is not something people want to rely on. edit: also if the third pylon is not an in base one then scanning a Protoss main is a complete waste of time.
It is just one of the tools that you can use and you can get a lot of information just by seeing the protoss army. If you see no sentries and few stalkers, its likely DTS or Stargate. There are a few good proxy locations on each map, so you can sniff those out too. Protoss players go through the same struggle playing against other protoss players. Proxy DTs and stargate suck just as much.
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Warp prism collosus harass ERRY GOD DAMN TIME
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Yep. Medivac.
It can load units, heals and uses speed booster.
Too much abilities for a unit that can be reactored without any requirements.
I think it should have an ungrade for one of those (e.g. medivac starts off with no speed booster and requires ???/???amount of resources to get afterburner.)
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On May 29 2013 23:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 22:53 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:42 Big J wrote:On May 29 2013 22:37 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:11 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:01 00higgo wrote:On May 29 2013 21:57 Beatmania wrote:
This change is ridiculous. Protoss really do not need this and it will not change anything other than giving Terran more ways to lose or be behind in the first 13 minutes. Terran already have to prepare for so much with lack of good scouting and are severely punished if they make the wrong calls. There is no reason Protoss can't use warp prism as it is in the same capacity and the ability to use it even earlier in a matchup that revolves around Terran having to scout perfectly seems insane.
Also Protoss have good harass/pressure options already. MSC stalker pushes, Blink builds, Oracles, Phoenix, DTs, Proxy plays. And then a vast array of all ins. Terran all ins consist of reaper, BitbyBitPrimes, 111, and 3 rax stim. All of which are ridiculously easy for protoss to scout and defend. I just really hope this change doesn't go through. I must be mis understanding, Terran has a lack of good scouting options? The main problem is that terrans are addicted to mules and can't kick the habit. Any time they see a potential all in, they think: "Damn, I need more money for more units. MORE MULES!!!!". They can't cut back, because they need those mules so bad. The main problem is ignorant Protoss like you thinking they're smarter than Terrans (who actually play their race instead of theorycrafting 24/7 on forums about how Terrans are supposedly "dumb" or "greedy"). Terrans don't or rarely scan to scout in early game because scans are a total gamble. They might see everything, they might see something, they might see nothing. Such a pity that IPL didn't upload the VODs of the IPTL grandfinals; I would link a screenshot of Bang's scan against MC on Atlas each time the inevitable uninformed "lol scans" nonsense (which, surprise surprise, is always brought up by non-Terrans) comes back in those discussions. Tech can be proxied anywhere or simply in a corner of the base (but which one?). Which is why Terrans didn't wait random armchair coaches to find solutions and started playing Reapers to see a bit more in the dark out there. And yes, Terrans badly need MULEs because, you know, they don't have any way to hasten their worker production + have some of them busy building on top of having an expensive infrastructure; try to idle 5 of your probes for 90 seconds and tell me how your build order goes. not true. I can name 2 Terrans that scan much more than the others. That nearly always scan at certain early timings (like against roach/bane) to see an allin coming. Their names are Flash and Innovation. Why exactly do you say "not true" and talk about TvZ when I was discussing TvP early game scans? Plus observers/VODs don't always show scans so I doubt you have a way to know. The simple fact of the matter is that if you think a protoss setting up an all-in, a scan is a good option. There is always a point in the game where the information is more valuable than the 300 mineral mule. If you can't get the info through other means, the scan is unstoppable and a viable option. Its on the only thing you should be doing if your "all-in sense" in tingling, but is is one of them.
Yes, scans are unstoppable—so? Just look at the following pro example—Taeja vs Sage, Star Station, ATC Liquid vs ROOT. Taeja is a good guy and actually listens to your advice. His reward?
Link
Nothing. He saw nothing, because as you can see on the minimap, everything was proxied. Taeja blindly prepared for a frontal Oracle bust and happened to be right (probably because he knew Sage's habits); it was indeed a 4g Oracles coming. But had it been a Blink Stalker attack, he would have been dead since his 3 bunks at the front would have been useless (+ he would have been 270 minerals behind due to the failed scan).
Another example in Bang vs MC, Atlas, IPTL MVP vs LG-IM. Bang scouted 3 pylons + dual gas with his SCV, presumably saw no expand at some point and scanned MC's base at 6'30. What did he see? 3 gates. I really wish I had a screenshot of this scan because it was the unluckiest thing ever: literally one inch at the left of the radius was the robo, and one inch at the right was the council searching blink. Bang built a second bunker but realized too late it was blink stalkers and was swiftly crushed.
Moral of the story: as I said earlier, early scans are a complete coinflip. The tradeoff is not "information vs being 270 minerals behind," it's "undefined odds of no/partial/complete information vs being 270 minerals behind" i. e. mostly a lottery. In both aforementioned cases, had the Terran players called a third MULE instead of a scan, they would have been in a better position since in both cases they were playing blindly anyway, but the MULE at least gives you 270 minerals over 90 sec (which matters a lot when defending all-ins since you need extra bunks, lose mining time when preparing your SCVs near the bunkers, etc.). If scans were a reliable way to get the necessary intel, Reaper reactor expands would not have replaced the dual Marine reactor expand.
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On May 29 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:15 Swift118 wrote:On May 29 2013 23:05 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:53 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:42 Big J wrote:On May 29 2013 22:37 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:11 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:01 00higgo wrote:On May 29 2013 21:57 Beatmania wrote:
This change is ridiculous. Protoss really do not need this and it will not change anything other than giving Terran more ways to lose or be behind in the first 13 minutes. Terran already have to prepare for so much with lack of good scouting and are severely punished if they make the wrong calls. There is no reason Protoss can't use warp prism as it is in the same capacity and the ability to use it even earlier in a matchup that revolves around Terran having to scout perfectly seems insane.
Also Protoss have good harass/pressure options already. MSC stalker pushes, Blink builds, Oracles, Phoenix, DTs, Proxy plays. And then a vast array of all ins. Terran all ins consist of reaper, BitbyBitPrimes, 111, and 3 rax stim. All of which are ridiculously easy for protoss to scout and defend. I just really hope this change doesn't go through. I must be mis understanding, Terran has a lack of good scouting options? The main problem is that terrans are addicted to mules and can't kick the habit. Any time they see a potential all in, they think: "Damn, I need more money for more units. MORE MULES!!!!". They can't cut back, because they need those mules so bad. The main problem is ignorant Protoss like you thinking they're smarter than Terrans (who actually play their race instead of theorycrafting 24/7 on forums about how Terrans are supposedly "dumb" or "greedy"). Terrans don't or rarely scan to scout in early game because scans are a total gamble. They might see everything, they might see something, they might see nothing. Such a pity that IPL didn't upload the VODs of the IPTL grandfinals; I would link a screenshot of Bang's scan against MC on Atlas each time the inevitable uninformed "lol scans" nonsense (which, surprise surprise, is always brought up by non-Terrans) comes back in those discussions. Tech can be proxied anywhere or simply in a corner of the base (but which one?). Which is why Terrans didn't wait random armchair coaches to find solutions and started playing Reapers to see a bit more in the dark out there. And yes, Terrans badly need MULEs because, you know, they don't have any way to hasten their worker production + have some of them busy building on top of having an expensive infrastructure; try to idle 5 of your probes for 90 seconds and tell me how your build order goes. not true. I can name 2 Terrans that scan much more than the others. That nearly always scan at certain early timings (like against roach/bane) to see an allin coming. Their names are Flash and Innovation. Why exactly do you say "not true" and talk about TvZ when I was discussing TvP early game scans? Plus observers/VODs don't always show scans so I doubt you have a way to know. The simple fact of the matter is that if you think a protoss setting up an all-in, a scan is a good option. There is always a point in the game where the information is more valuable than the 300 mineral mule. If you can't get the info through other means, the scan is unstoppable and a viable option. Its on the only thing you should be doing if your "all-in sense" in tingling, but is is one of them. A typical scenario is to scan and see the amount of gases (which your scv has already probably scouted) and 3 gates. Which is pretty predictable if the Protoss is still on one base. Other tech is usually hidden and you might get lucky with scan and see the other tech, but luck is not something people want to rely on. edit: also if the third pylon is not an in base one then scanning a Protoss main is a complete waste of time. It is just one of the tools that you can use and you can get a lot of information just by seeing the protoss army. If you see no sentries and few stalkers, its likely DTS or Stargate. There are a few good proxy locations on each map, so you can sniff those out too. Protoss players go through the same struggle playing against other protoss players. Proxy DTs and stargate suck just as much.
Also, every protoss proxy is simply dictated by a missing 3rd pylon in the main, i'm waiting the T whining about the fake 3rd pylon in the main cancelled when the scv goes out, i've seen that in 1 only game in my life, but i guess i will read this complaint soon..
Also I'm wondering why this thread is turned in a zerg wishlist from page 1... kinda funny....
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 29 2013 23:38 InVerno wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 23:15 Swift118 wrote:On May 29 2013 23:05 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:53 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:42 Big J wrote:On May 29 2013 22:37 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:11 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:01 00higgo wrote:On May 29 2013 21:57 Beatmania wrote:
This change is ridiculous. Protoss really do not need this and it will not change anything other than giving Terran more ways to lose or be behind in the first 13 minutes. Terran already have to prepare for so much with lack of good scouting and are severely punished if they make the wrong calls. There is no reason Protoss can't use warp prism as it is in the same capacity and the ability to use it even earlier in a matchup that revolves around Terran having to scout perfectly seems insane.
Also Protoss have good harass/pressure options already. MSC stalker pushes, Blink builds, Oracles, Phoenix, DTs, Proxy plays. And then a vast array of all ins. Terran all ins consist of reaper, BitbyBitPrimes, 111, and 3 rax stim. All of which are ridiculously easy for protoss to scout and defend. I just really hope this change doesn't go through. I must be mis understanding, Terran has a lack of good scouting options? The main problem is that terrans are addicted to mules and can't kick the habit. Any time they see a potential all in, they think: "Damn, I need more money for more units. MORE MULES!!!!". They can't cut back, because they need those mules so bad. The main problem is ignorant Protoss like you thinking they're smarter than Terrans (who actually play their race instead of theorycrafting 24/7 on forums about how Terrans are supposedly "dumb" or "greedy"). Terrans don't or rarely scan to scout in early game because scans are a total gamble. They might see everything, they might see something, they might see nothing. Such a pity that IPL didn't upload the VODs of the IPTL grandfinals; I would link a screenshot of Bang's scan against MC on Atlas each time the inevitable uninformed "lol scans" nonsense (which, surprise surprise, is always brought up by non-Terrans) comes back in those discussions. Tech can be proxied anywhere or simply in a corner of the base (but which one?). Which is why Terrans didn't wait random armchair coaches to find solutions and started playing Reapers to see a bit more in the dark out there. And yes, Terrans badly need MULEs because, you know, they don't have any way to hasten their worker production + have some of them busy building on top of having an expensive infrastructure; try to idle 5 of your probes for 90 seconds and tell me how your build order goes. not true. I can name 2 Terrans that scan much more than the others. That nearly always scan at certain early timings (like against roach/bane) to see an allin coming. Their names are Flash and Innovation. Why exactly do you say "not true" and talk about TvZ when I was discussing TvP early game scans? Plus observers/VODs don't always show scans so I doubt you have a way to know. The simple fact of the matter is that if you think a protoss setting up an all-in, a scan is a good option. There is always a point in the game where the information is more valuable than the 300 mineral mule. If you can't get the info through other means, the scan is unstoppable and a viable option. Its on the only thing you should be doing if your "all-in sense" in tingling, but is is one of them. A typical scenario is to scan and see the amount of gases (which your scv has already probably scouted) and 3 gates. Which is pretty predictable if the Protoss is still on one base. Other tech is usually hidden and you might get lucky with scan and see the other tech, but luck is not something people want to rely on. edit: also if the third pylon is not an in base one then scanning a Protoss main is a complete waste of time. It is just one of the tools that you can use and you can get a lot of information just by seeing the protoss army. If you see no sentries and few stalkers, its likely DTS or Stargate. There are a few good proxy locations on each map, so you can sniff those out too. Protoss players go through the same struggle playing against other protoss players. Proxy DTs and stargate suck just as much. Also, every protoss proxy is simply dictated by a missing 3rd pylon in the main, i'm waiting the T whining about the fake 3rd pylon in the main cancelled when the scv goes out, i've seen that in 1 only game in my life, but i guess i will read this complaint soon.. Also I'm wondering why this thread is turned in a zerg wishlist from page 1... kinda funny....
What happens then if the 3rd pylon is in the main but you didn't catch it on your scan? Just because something isn't visible from scan doesn't mean it's not there, so you cannot act on that knowledge.
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On May 29 2013 17:36 Snowbear wrote:I just wonder where all the "protoss is weak" comes from? Take a nice look at proleague: http://sc2gifs.com/articles.php
I don't think team leagues are a very good indicator of balance. For instance, Tails is a great Team League player, but not great in individual leagues. That is because he comes up with builds to snipe players.
And that goes right along with how Protoss works. Protoss thrives on timing attacks due to having units that require their opponent to get hard counters to handle and the fact that chronoboost is the only macro mechanic that can rush out tech and not just economy.
And the results so far in SC2 have reflected this. Macro Protoss players don't win titles. Plain and simple. Parting soul trained his way to the WCS crown last year. MC 6 Gated July into oblivion in the GSL. Seed crushed MC with multiple Warp Prism drops in the GSL.
Protoss is suffering in WCS.
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Of course if this feels like a good direction after testing but feels like too big of a buff, we can also try a slightly increased movement speed on the unit while keeping the upgraded speed the same.
Announce as 50 and implement @ 50, then people complain a lot.
Announce as 100 but implement @ 50, then less people complain thinking it isn't as bad.
Blizzard is getting better at politics.
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On May 29 2013 23:38 InVerno wrote:
Also, every protoss proxy is simply dictated by a missing 3rd pylon in the main
Even if it was this simple (there are other things to take into consideration, including the fake missing third pylon you mentioned), does this knowledge enlighten Terran about what is coming exactly? No. Some all-ins can proxy pretty much everything anywhere on the map.
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Make prism can be build from stargate, problem solved.
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On May 29 2013 23:42 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:38 InVerno wrote:On May 29 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 23:15 Swift118 wrote:On May 29 2013 23:05 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:53 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:42 Big J wrote:On May 29 2013 22:37 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:11 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:01 00higgo wrote:
[quote]
I must be mis understanding, Terran has a lack of good scouting options? The main problem is that terrans are addicted to mules and can't kick the habit. Any time they see a potential all in, they think: "Damn, I need more money for more units. MORE MULES!!!!". They can't cut back, because they need those mules so bad. The main problem is ignorant Protoss like you thinking they're smarter than Terrans (who actually play their race instead of theorycrafting 24/7 on forums about how Terrans are supposedly "dumb" or "greedy"). Terrans don't or rarely scan to scout in early game because scans are a total gamble. They might see everything, they might see something, they might see nothing. Such a pity that IPL didn't upload the VODs of the IPTL grandfinals; I would link a screenshot of Bang's scan against MC on Atlas each time the inevitable uninformed "lol scans" nonsense (which, surprise surprise, is always brought up by non-Terrans) comes back in those discussions. Tech can be proxied anywhere or simply in a corner of the base (but which one?). Which is why Terrans didn't wait random armchair coaches to find solutions and started playing Reapers to see a bit more in the dark out there. And yes, Terrans badly need MULEs because, you know, they don't have any way to hasten their worker production + have some of them busy building on top of having an expensive infrastructure; try to idle 5 of your probes for 90 seconds and tell me how your build order goes. not true. I can name 2 Terrans that scan much more than the others. That nearly always scan at certain early timings (like against roach/bane) to see an allin coming. Their names are Flash and Innovation. Why exactly do you say "not true" and talk about TvZ when I was discussing TvP early game scans? Plus observers/VODs don't always show scans so I doubt you have a way to know. The simple fact of the matter is that if you think a protoss setting up an all-in, a scan is a good option. There is always a point in the game where the information is more valuable than the 300 mineral mule. If you can't get the info through other means, the scan is unstoppable and a viable option. Its on the only thing you should be doing if your "all-in sense" in tingling, but is is one of them. A typical scenario is to scan and see the amount of gases (which your scv has already probably scouted) and 3 gates. Which is pretty predictable if the Protoss is still on one base. Other tech is usually hidden and you might get lucky with scan and see the other tech, but luck is not something people want to rely on. edit: also if the third pylon is not an in base one then scanning a Protoss main is a complete waste of time. It is just one of the tools that you can use and you can get a lot of information just by seeing the protoss army. If you see no sentries and few stalkers, its likely DTS or Stargate. There are a few good proxy locations on each map, so you can sniff those out too. Protoss players go through the same struggle playing against other protoss players. Proxy DTs and stargate suck just as much. Also, every protoss proxy is simply dictated by a missing 3rd pylon in the main, i'm waiting the T whining about the fake 3rd pylon in the main cancelled when the scv goes out, i've seen that in 1 only game in my life, but i guess i will read this complaint soon.. Also I'm wondering why this thread is turned in a zerg wishlist from page 1... kinda funny.... What happens then if the 3rd pylon is in the main but you didn't catch it on your scan? Just because something isn't visible from scan doesn't mean it's not there, so you cannot act on that knowledge.
Didn't catch the 3rd pylon with the scan? wut.. you need to see it with the scv (a macro build has a third pylon under costruction before stalker comes out) and actually tells you DONT scan, because something weird is happening around your base, not in in the P main.. You can scan if you see 3 pylons and no early expo in the natural.
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On May 29 2013 23:36 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:05 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:53 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:42 Big J wrote:On May 29 2013 22:37 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:11 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:01 00higgo wrote:On May 29 2013 21:57 Beatmania wrote:
This change is ridiculous. Protoss really do not need this and it will not change anything other than giving Terran more ways to lose or be behind in the first 13 minutes. Terran already have to prepare for so much with lack of good scouting and are severely punished if they make the wrong calls. There is no reason Protoss can't use warp prism as it is in the same capacity and the ability to use it even earlier in a matchup that revolves around Terran having to scout perfectly seems insane.
Also Protoss have good harass/pressure options already. MSC stalker pushes, Blink builds, Oracles, Phoenix, DTs, Proxy plays. And then a vast array of all ins. Terran all ins consist of reaper, BitbyBitPrimes, 111, and 3 rax stim. All of which are ridiculously easy for protoss to scout and defend. I just really hope this change doesn't go through. I must be mis understanding, Terran has a lack of good scouting options? The main problem is that terrans are addicted to mules and can't kick the habit. Any time they see a potential all in, they think: "Damn, I need more money for more units. MORE MULES!!!!". They can't cut back, because they need those mules so bad. The main problem is ignorant Protoss like you thinking they're smarter than Terrans (who actually play their race instead of theorycrafting 24/7 on forums about how Terrans are supposedly "dumb" or "greedy"). Terrans don't or rarely scan to scout in early game because scans are a total gamble. They might see everything, they might see something, they might see nothing. Such a pity that IPL didn't upload the VODs of the IPTL grandfinals; I would link a screenshot of Bang's scan against MC on Atlas each time the inevitable uninformed "lol scans" nonsense (which, surprise surprise, is always brought up by non-Terrans) comes back in those discussions. Tech can be proxied anywhere or simply in a corner of the base (but which one?). Which is why Terrans didn't wait random armchair coaches to find solutions and started playing Reapers to see a bit more in the dark out there. And yes, Terrans badly need MULEs because, you know, they don't have any way to hasten their worker production + have some of them busy building on top of having an expensive infrastructure; try to idle 5 of your probes for 90 seconds and tell me how your build order goes. not true. I can name 2 Terrans that scan much more than the others. That nearly always scan at certain early timings (like against roach/bane) to see an allin coming. Their names are Flash and Innovation. Why exactly do you say "not true" and talk about TvZ when I was discussing TvP early game scans? Plus observers/VODs don't always show scans so I doubt you have a way to know. The simple fact of the matter is that if you think a protoss setting up an all-in, a scan is a good option. There is always a point in the game where the information is more valuable than the 300 mineral mule. If you can't get the info through other means, the scan is unstoppable and a viable option. Its on the only thing you should be doing if your "all-in sense" in tingling, but is is one of them. Yes, scans are unstoppable—so? Just look at the following pro example—Taeja vs Sage, Star Station, ATC Liquid vs ROOT. Taeja is a good guy and actually listens to your advice. His reward? LinkNothing. He saw nothing, because as you can see on the minimap, everything was proxied. Taeja blindly prepared for a frontal Oracle bust and happened to be right (probably because he knew Sage's habits); it was indeed a 4g Oracles coming. But had it been a Blink Stalker attack, he would have been dead since his 3 bunks at the front would have been useless (+ he would have been 270 minerals behind due to the failed scan). Another example in Bang vs MC, Atlas, IPTL MVP vs LG-IM. Bang scouted 3 pylons + dual gas with his SCV, presumably saw no expand at some point and scanned MC's base at 6'30. What did he see? 3 gates. I really wish I had a screenshot of this scan because it was the unluckiest thing ever: literally one inch at the left of the radius was the robo, and one inch at the right was the council searching blink. Bang built a second bunker but realized too late it was blink stalkers and was swiftly crushed. Moral of the story: as I said earlier, early scans are a complete coinflip. The tradeoff is not "information vs being 270 minerals behind," it's "undefined odds of no/partial/complete information vs being 270 minerals behind" i. e. mostly a lottery. In both aforementioned cases, had the Terran players called a third MULE instead of a scan, they would have been in a better position since in both cases they were playing blindly anyway, but the MULE at least gives you 270 minerals over 90 sec (which matters a lot when defending all-ins since you need extra bunks, lose mining time when preparing your SCVs near the bunkers, etc.). If scans were a reliable way to get the necessary intel, Reaper reactor expands would not have replaced the dual Marine reactor expand.
Did I say scans were perfect? No I didn't. For every example you provide of when a scan failed, we would find one where the scan found exactly what the player needed. If it were perfect, it would be unfair. It is a tool, just like every other means of scouting. The protoss observer isn't perfect either, or overlord scouting. Both can be stopped and have a chance of getting no actionable information.
And you forget that protoss players play against other protoss. We all have lost to DTs or 3 oracles flying into our mineral line, only to review the replay and see our opponent more than a single stalker and just prayed they didn't get attacked. All-ins happens to everyone.
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On May 29 2013 23:21 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 22:35 DinoMight wrote:
I don't understand how everyone thinks this will make Protoss allins unstoppable. Sure, they might get to your base a few seconds earlier... but P is still warping in the same units. The counter does not change.
Yes it might be more "annoying" but I don't think it's imbalanced.
Faster WP in my opinion will make the game more interesting, primarily because it will no longer conflict with Colossus range increase. If P can harass Z early and force Z to defend, P can take a 3rd base earlier (MACRO GAME).
Likewise, if P can have speed without sacrificing Colossus range, they can be out and about on the map earlier vs Terran and not be forced to turtle (which every T complains about).
PvP will not change.. robo will still die to Stargate. Dropping the same units is pseudo logic, once you give those same units the ability to travel across the map quicker or in between bases quicker then you are increasing their combat effectivness, if I were to say the Medivac speed upgrade didn't change anything because Terran are dropping the same units you'd call me mad; and yes the Medivac speed upgrade is still problematic regardless of whether or not it's Marines or Hellbats comming out of it. The other issue is Protoss is getting a virtually new scouting unit out of the deal.
Have to disagree there. Terran drops are effective because Marines are ranged AND have high DPS. Protoss drops are either going to be Zealots (no range, you can run workers) or Stalkers (very low DPS). Once the Warp Prism deploys itself and warps in more units than can fit it in, the speed becomes irrelevant, because those units are now in the base and have no base-to-base mobility. So you deal with them in the same way you would if the WP didn't have speed. It doesn't change the response, just requires the Terran to have better response time.
The way to deal with Terran drops in WoL was to snipe the medivac, because stim bio did so well vs. pure gateway units. Now with the boost, Terran can just boost over and drop in the base anyway. So now instead of needing just enough units to prevent the drop, you need enough army to actually fight anything a Terran can drop. And you need to be faster at seeing drops on the minimap because they get in and out faster.
Do you see how that's different from WP speed? The speed there actually changes the response required by the other player. WP speed doesn't.
Also, LOL scouting unit... Terran has a 1500 hp observer that costs 150 minerals. It's called a Barracks. And it moves faster than an overlord. I'm not trolling, lol. I've been scouted by Master level Terrans with spare Barracks before. With only Stalkers as AA, it's very effective.
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On May 29 2013 23:48 InVerno wrote:
Didn't catch the 3rd pylon with the scan? wut.. you need to see it with the scv (a macro build has a third pylon under costruction before stalker comes out)
Except since you're forced to leave the base before the Stalker is out, Protoss can build his third Pylon at the back of his base in such a way that the SCV won't see it (otherwise it would mean the SCV is still there when the Stalker is out). It's quite a common trick to build the third Pylon in the area the SCV just left since he won't have the time to have another look around the whole Protoss' base.
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On May 29 2013 23:47 Laserist wrote:
Make prism can be build from stargate, problem solved.
Why do you think so?
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When people think of toss nowadays it resorts to:
1) slow deathballs, and one or two big defining clashes between armies;
2) 1-2 base all-ins.
Please Blizzard get working on this race.
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On May 29 2013 23:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:38 InVerno wrote:
Also, every protoss proxy is simply dictated by a missing 3rd pylon in the main Even if it was this simple (there are other things to take into consideration, including the fake missing third pylon you mentioned), does this knowledge enlighten Terran about what is coming exactly? No. Some all-ins can proxy pretty much everything anywhere on the map.
What are you trying to say? Terran can't proxy? Protosses can see a "3rd depot missing" as a clue of a proxy mines coming?
There's no unit or skill with a scout success of 100% and everyone has some drawbacks, energy on sentrys, robotics facility occupied for observers, minerals for scans, supplycap for overseer.. None can scout things100%, maybe 70% or less, that's because the rest is up to you as a player. Why the discussion is here? Because 4gate prism will become uscoutable and so fucking imba? ... i've never lost a slowprism in that allin in my life, and i don't consider myself a very strong player, if that push fails is for other reasons for sure, surely not because now i can escape from vikings.
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On May 29 2013 23:58 Big-t wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:47 Laserist wrote:
Make prism can be build from stargate, problem solved. Why do you think so?
So you don't have to sacrifice crucial robo time for a support flying unit basically. There are numerous examples on having one more immortal or colossus turn the tides of battles.
Considering Gateway units are shit tier, robo time is invaluable for toss.
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This is so funny. In ro8 we had Parting vs Soulkey which was a very close series, 3-2. If Parting won the last game, we would have had 2 Toss in ro4, and a guaranteed Toss in finals.
Didn't happen we got Soulkey vs sOs, once again extremely close series, 4-3. Everyone said during the last game, that had sOs actually target fired the few Corrupters that killed his Colossi, or sniped Soulkey's 3rd Hatchery which had very few HP left, he would have probably won that game. Once again, we'd be looking at a PvT GSL finals and no one would be able to complain that Protoss is weak.
If you look at win rates in Korea, Protoss is doing fine and not just in Proleague where they're dominating but in the GSL and GSTL as well.
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On May 29 2013 23:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:36 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 23:05 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:53 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:42 Big J wrote:On May 29 2013 22:37 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2013 22:11 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 22:01 00higgo wrote:On May 29 2013 21:57 Beatmania wrote:
This change is ridiculous. Protoss really do not need this and it will not change anything other than giving Terran more ways to lose or be behind in the first 13 minutes. Terran already have to prepare for so much with lack of good scouting and are severely punished if they make the wrong calls. There is no reason Protoss can't use warp prism as it is in the same capacity and the ability to use it even earlier in a matchup that revolves around Terran having to scout perfectly seems insane.
Also Protoss have good harass/pressure options already. MSC stalker pushes, Blink builds, Oracles, Phoenix, DTs, Proxy plays. And then a vast array of all ins. Terran all ins consist of reaper, BitbyBitPrimes, 111, and 3 rax stim. All of which are ridiculously easy for protoss to scout and defend. I just really hope this change doesn't go through. I must be mis understanding, Terran has a lack of good scouting options? The main problem is that terrans are addicted to mules and can't kick the habit. Any time they see a potential all in, they think: "Damn, I need more money for more units. MORE MULES!!!!". They can't cut back, because they need those mules so bad. The main problem is ignorant Protoss like you thinking they're smarter than Terrans (who actually play their race instead of theorycrafting 24/7 on forums about how Terrans are supposedly "dumb" or "greedy"). Terrans don't or rarely scan to scout in early game because scans are a total gamble. They might see everything, they might see something, they might see nothing. Such a pity that IPL didn't upload the VODs of the IPTL grandfinals; I would link a screenshot of Bang's scan against MC on Atlas each time the inevitable uninformed "lol scans" nonsense (which, surprise surprise, is always brought up by non-Terrans) comes back in those discussions. Tech can be proxied anywhere or simply in a corner of the base (but which one?). Which is why Terrans didn't wait random armchair coaches to find solutions and started playing Reapers to see a bit more in the dark out there. And yes, Terrans badly need MULEs because, you know, they don't have any way to hasten their worker production + have some of them busy building on top of having an expensive infrastructure; try to idle 5 of your probes for 90 seconds and tell me how your build order goes. not true. I can name 2 Terrans that scan much more than the others. That nearly always scan at certain early timings (like against roach/bane) to see an allin coming. Their names are Flash and Innovation. Why exactly do you say "not true" and talk about TvZ when I was discussing TvP early game scans? Plus observers/VODs don't always show scans so I doubt you have a way to know. The simple fact of the matter is that if you think a protoss setting up an all-in, a scan is a good option. There is always a point in the game where the information is more valuable than the 300 mineral mule. If you can't get the info through other means, the scan is unstoppable and a viable option. Its on the only thing you should be doing if your "all-in sense" in tingling, but is is one of them. Yes, scans are unstoppable—so? Just look at the following pro example—Taeja vs Sage, Star Station, ATC Liquid vs ROOT. Taeja is a good guy and actually listens to your advice. His reward? LinkNothing. He saw nothing, because as you can see on the minimap, everything was proxied. Taeja blindly prepared for a frontal Oracle bust and happened to be right (probably because he knew Sage's habits); it was indeed a 4g Oracles coming. But had it been a Blink Stalker attack, he would have been dead since his 3 bunks at the front would have been useless (+ he would have been 270 minerals behind due to the failed scan). Another example in Bang vs MC, Atlas, IPTL MVP vs LG-IM. Bang scouted 3 pylons + dual gas with his SCV, presumably saw no expand at some point and scanned MC's base at 6'30. What did he see? 3 gates. I really wish I had a screenshot of this scan because it was the unluckiest thing ever: literally one inch at the left of the radius was the robo, and one inch at the right was the council searching blink. Bang built a second bunker but realized too late it was blink stalkers and was swiftly crushed. Moral of the story: as I said earlier, early scans are a complete coinflip. The tradeoff is not "information vs being 270 minerals behind," it's "undefined odds of no/partial/complete information vs being 270 minerals behind" i. e. mostly a lottery. In both aforementioned cases, had the Terran players called a third MULE instead of a scan, they would have been in a better position since in both cases they were playing blindly anyway, but the MULE at least gives you 270 minerals over 90 sec (which matters a lot when defending all-ins since you need extra bunks, lose mining time when preparing your SCVs near the bunkers, etc.). If scans were a reliable way to get the necessary intel, Reaper reactor expands would not have replaced the dual Marine reactor expand. Did I say scans were perfect? No I didn't. For every example you provide of when a scan failed, we would find one where the scan found exactly what the player needed. If it were perfect, it would be unfair. It is a tool, just like every other means of scouting. The protoss observer isn't perfect either, or overlord scouting. Both can be stopped and have a chance of getting no actionable information. And you forget that protoss players play against other protoss. We all have lost to DTs or 3 oracles flying into our mineral line, only to review the replay and see our opponent more than a single stalker and just prayed they didn't get attacked. All-ins happens to everyone.
Don't even start about scan scouting with Terrans. You will always hear how it is not perfect. From the same people who will tell you "just sac an overlord" or "with free hallucinations and hidden observers, protoss should never get caught by anything".
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EPT
