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On May 29 2013 21:25 SsDrKosS wrote:
Ok. I won't be whining at my nydus worm's broken family.
What 'buff' I want to see in Warp Prism is simple.
Move the speed research to Cybernetic Core with same cost/time (100/100, 80s).
Done.
^this  +1
edit: makes even more sense on cyber doesn't it? That it gets produced out of a building which produces ground-units was pretty weird allready :o
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 29 2013 21:38 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 19:52 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 05:21 JacobNX01a wrote:On May 29 2013 05:14 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 05:10 JacobNX01a wrote:
I like the idea of giving Protoss more harass options, but I feel like zerg is being neglected in the dropping department. Zerg has insanely cheap, easily massable units which can drop, not sure what you're saying there. Sure, but we have to research two upgrades to drop, and you don't see zerg drop as often as protoss or terran. I just feel like zerg should have some compensation for the other two races having such strong drop play. Just like Terran has to tech to starport to get medivacs, it costs 150/100. It then takes another 100/100 to get one medivac. At a total time of 92 seconds. Zerg on the other hand has a 200/200 upgrade at 130s, and 100/100 at 60s and they can have built many overlords in the time it took for that to complete. The gas cost of Terran drops increases with every medivac whereas with Zerg the gas costs is a one time 300. And Medivacs obviously don't help you in later stages of the games nor are mandotory for a Terran who goes bio, right? right? And to your ling dropexample, 16 lings won't do shit unless you have 2/2 on your lings and even then, 1 bunker with one marine should delay it enough to get 8rinors+medv there. Zerg drops are just totally unefficient if you just drop one kind of unit.
Bunkered marines are rare at an expansion.
This is obviously a later game example, so your lings would have 2/2.
Obviously medivacs help you late game, however overlords cost no supply.
We could do this all day but I'm sure that Zerg drops are not as ineffective as you are making out, a four overlord drop full of marines in someones main would do a hell of a lot of damage, just like a 2 medivac drop can.
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On May 29 2013 21:38 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 19:52 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 05:21 JacobNX01a wrote:On May 29 2013 05:14 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 05:10 JacobNX01a wrote:
I like the idea of giving Protoss more harass options, but I feel like zerg is being neglected in the dropping department. Zerg has insanely cheap, easily massable units which can drop, not sure what you're saying there. Sure, but we have to research two upgrades to drop, and you don't see zerg drop as often as protoss or terran. I just feel like zerg should have some compensation for the other two races having such strong drop play. Just like Terran has to tech to starport to get medivacs, it costs 150/100. It then takes another 100/100 to get one medivac. At a total time of 92 seconds. Zerg on the other hand has a 200/200 upgrade at 130s, and 100/100 at 60s and they can have built many overlords in the time it took for that to complete. The gas cost of Terran drops increases with every medivac whereas with Zerg the gas costs is a one time 300. And Medivacs obviously don't help you in later stages of the games nor are mandotory for a Terran who goes bio, right? right? And to your ling dropexample, 16 lings won't do shit unless you have 2/2 on your lings and even then, 1 bunker with one marine should delay it enough to get 8rinors+medv there. Zerg drops are just totally unefficient if you just drop one kind of unit.
This. That's why I was whining about varients of nydus worms... But I will stop.
On May 29 2013 17:11 havok55 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 17:00 syno wrote:On May 29 2013 16:55 Incognoto wrote:
So many people are saying Zergs have free drop-ships.. 100 minerals, no supply.
Whereas that's true you need to keep in mind that Zergs don't have anything worth dropping.
I can only imagine how annoying it would be for a T of P (in the lategame), if all of the sudden there are like 20-30 Lings in your main, destroying pylons, maybe your robo bay aswell. Yeah, zerg drops are not about quality, but quantity. All zerg units are worth dropping if you drop enough of them, which is why ALL your overlords turn into dropships after upgrade.
And this.
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On May 29 2013 21:41 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 21:38 bluQ wrote:On May 29 2013 19:52 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 05:21 JacobNX01a wrote:On May 29 2013 05:14 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 05:10 JacobNX01a wrote:
I like the idea of giving Protoss more harass options, but I feel like zerg is being neglected in the dropping department. Zerg has insanely cheap, easily massable units which can drop, not sure what you're saying there. Sure, but we have to research two upgrades to drop, and you don't see zerg drop as often as protoss or terran. I just feel like zerg should have some compensation for the other two races having such strong drop play. Just like Terran has to tech to starport to get medivacs, it costs 150/100. It then takes another 100/100 to get one medivac. At a total time of 92 seconds. Zerg on the other hand has a 200/200 upgrade at 130s, and 100/100 at 60s and they can have built many overlords in the time it took for that to complete. The gas cost of Terran drops increases with every medivac whereas with Zerg the gas costs is a one time 300. And Medivacs obviously don't help you in later stages of the games nor are mandotory for a Terran who goes bio, right? right? And to your ling dropexample, 16 lings won't do shit unless you have 2/2 on your lings and even then, 1 bunker with one marine should delay it enough to get 8rinors+medv there. Zerg drops are just totally unefficient if you just drop one kind of unit. Bunkered marines are rare at an expansion. This is obviously a later game example, so your lings would have 2/2. Obviously medivacs help you late game, however overlords cost no supply. We could do this all day but I'm sure that Zerg drops are not as ineffective as you are making out, a four overlord drop full of marines in someones main would do a hell of a lot of damage, just like a 2 medivac drop can.
Bunkered marines are rare at expansions? What the hell? It was the norm in WoL ...
32 lings dropped in a mineralline can be killed with good simcity by about 5? marines + medvac 
Zerg drops are NOT efficient when you drop a single type of unit.
And im not trying to make them look in any way, im playing as random.
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On May 29 2013 21:45 bluQ wrote:32 lings dropped in a mineralline can be killed with good simcity by about 5? marines + medvac
What prevents you from giving them orders and focus add-ons or things like that?
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On May 29 2013 21:45 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 21:41 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 21:38 bluQ wrote:On May 29 2013 19:52 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 05:21 JacobNX01a wrote:On May 29 2013 05:14 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 05:10 JacobNX01a wrote:
I like the idea of giving Protoss more harass options, but I feel like zerg is being neglected in the dropping department. Zerg has insanely cheap, easily massable units which can drop, not sure what you're saying there. Sure, but we have to research two upgrades to drop, and you don't see zerg drop as often as protoss or terran. I just feel like zerg should have some compensation for the other two races having such strong drop play. Just like Terran has to tech to starport to get medivacs, it costs 150/100. It then takes another 100/100 to get one medivac. At a total time of 92 seconds. Zerg on the other hand has a 200/200 upgrade at 130s, and 100/100 at 60s and they can have built many overlords in the time it took for that to complete. The gas cost of Terran drops increases with every medivac whereas with Zerg the gas costs is a one time 300. And Medivacs obviously don't help you in later stages of the games nor are mandotory for a Terran who goes bio, right? right? And to your ling dropexample, 16 lings won't do shit unless you have 2/2 on your lings and even then, 1 bunker with one marine should delay it enough to get 8rinors+medv there. Zerg drops are just totally unefficient if you just drop one kind of unit. Bunkered marines are rare at an expansion. This is obviously a later game example, so your lings would have 2/2. Obviously medivacs help you late game, however overlords cost no supply. We could do this all day but I'm sure that Zerg drops are not as ineffective as you are making out, a four overlord drop full of marines in someones main would do a hell of a lot of damage, just like a 2 medivac drop can. Bunkered marines are rare at expansions? What the hell? It was the norm in WoL ... 32 lings dropped in a mineralline can be killed with good simcity by about 5? marines + medvac Zerg drops are NOT efficient when you drop a single type of unit. And im not trying to make them look in any way, im playing as random.
Bunker is seen quite a lot in Hots as well. I do see that people prefer turret with some army though.
And if terran build a sensor tower (which some of you might forget), overload drop is very hard to success due to its speed.
Edit: opps I kept saying overload not overlord...
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By the time 5 marines kill 32 lings there wont be much left in the mineral line.
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On May 29 2013 21:53 Sissors wrote:
By the time 5 marines kill 32 lings there wont be much left in the mineral line.
because mules will have mined out the base in the 2.3seconds it takes marines to clean that up?
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Probably a positive change but, does not address the fundamental race balance issues.
For example in PvT, if both players play perfectly the Terran should always win, this is because, in the super late game they can sacrafice SCVs to get a bigger army than Toss. Toss' mechanic is having instant reinforcments from warp gates. This is however not as useful as having a bigger army because, you:
a. Need a pylon V close to the action so the warp ins can affect it
b. Time taken to warp in, meaning both the actual warp in time and the time the player can't micro due to warping in.
Zerg can also do a similar thing using supply tricks, although this seldom comes into play.
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This change is ridiculous. Protoss really do not need this and it will not change anything other than giving Terran more ways to lose or be behind in the first 13 minutes. Terran already have to prepare for so much with lack of good scouting and are severely punished if they make the wrong calls. There is no reason Protoss can't use warp prism as it is in the same capacity and the ability to use it even earlier in a matchup that revolves around Terran having to scout perfectly seems insane.
Also Protoss have good harass/pressure options already. MSC stalker pushes, Blink builds, Oracles, Phoenix, DTs, Proxy plays. And then a vast array of all ins. Terran all ins consist of reaper, BitbyBitPrimes, 111, and 3 rax stim. All of which are ridiculously easy for protoss to scout and defend. I just really hope this change doesn't go through.
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Am i the only one who fears sentry drops that force field the ramp getting even easier to pull off?
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 29 2013 21:45 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 21:41 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 21:38 bluQ wrote:On May 29 2013 19:52 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 05:21 JacobNX01a wrote:On May 29 2013 05:14 Targe wrote:On May 29 2013 05:10 JacobNX01a wrote:
I like the idea of giving Protoss more harass options, but I feel like zerg is being neglected in the dropping department. Zerg has insanely cheap, easily massable units which can drop, not sure what you're saying there. Sure, but we have to research two upgrades to drop, and you don't see zerg drop as often as protoss or terran. I just feel like zerg should have some compensation for the other two races having such strong drop play. Just like Terran has to tech to starport to get medivacs, it costs 150/100. It then takes another 100/100 to get one medivac. At a total time of 92 seconds. Zerg on the other hand has a 200/200 upgrade at 130s, and 100/100 at 60s and they can have built many overlords in the time it took for that to complete. The gas cost of Terran drops increases with every medivac whereas with Zerg the gas costs is a one time 300. And Medivacs obviously don't help you in later stages of the games nor are mandotory for a Terran who goes bio, right? right? And to your ling dropexample, 16 lings won't do shit unless you have 2/2 on your lings and even then, 1 bunker with one marine should delay it enough to get 8rinors+medv there. Zerg drops are just totally unefficient if you just drop one kind of unit. Bunkered marines are rare at an expansion. This is obviously a later game example, so your lings would have 2/2. Obviously medivacs help you late game, however overlords cost no supply. We could do this all day but I'm sure that Zerg drops are not as ineffective as you are making out, a four overlord drop full of marines in someones main would do a hell of a lot of damage, just like a 2 medivac drop can. Bunkered marines are rare at expansions? What the hell? It was the norm in WoL ... 32 lings dropped in a mineralline can be killed with good simcity by about 5? marines + medvac Zerg drops are NOT efficient when you drop a single type of unit. And im not trying to make them look in any way, im playing as random.
I'm not talking about mineral line drops in the main, im talking about targeting their infrastructure, target depots etc. and that will do just as much damage as two medivacs full of marines (equal resource cost).
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On May 29 2013 21:57 Beatmania wrote:
This change is ridiculous. Protoss really do not need this and it will not change anything other than giving Terran more ways to lose or be behind in the first 13 minutes. Terran already have to prepare for so much with lack of good scouting and are severely punished if they make the wrong calls. There is no reason Protoss can't use warp prism as it is in the same capacity and the ability to use it even earlier in a matchup that revolves around Terran having to scout perfectly seems insane.
Also Protoss have good harass/pressure options already. MSC stalker pushes, Blink builds, Oracles, Phoenix, DTs, Proxy plays. And then a vast array of all ins. Terran all ins consist of reaper, BitbyBitPrimes, 111, and 3 rax stim. All of which are ridiculously easy for protoss to scout and defend. I just really hope this change doesn't go through.
I must be mis understanding, Terran has a lack of good scouting options?
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On May 29 2013 22:01 00higgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 21:57 Beatmania wrote:
This change is ridiculous. Protoss really do not need this and it will not change anything other than giving Terran more ways to lose or be behind in the first 13 minutes. Terran already have to prepare for so much with lack of good scouting and are severely punished if they make the wrong calls. There is no reason Protoss can't use warp prism as it is in the same capacity and the ability to use it even earlier in a matchup that revolves around Terran having to scout perfectly seems insane.
Also Protoss have good harass/pressure options already. MSC stalker pushes, Blink builds, Oracles, Phoenix, DTs, Proxy plays. And then a vast array of all ins. Terran all ins consist of reaper, BitbyBitPrimes, 111, and 3 rax stim. All of which are ridiculously easy for protoss to scout and defend. I just really hope this change doesn't go through. I must be mis understanding, Terran has a lack of good scouting options?
The main problem is that terrans are addicted to mules and can't kick the habit. Any time they see a potential all in, they think: "Damn, I need more money for more units. MORE MULES!!!!". They can't cut back, because they need those mules so bad.
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A buff that's based on that there were 2 TvZ finals in recent events and which mainly strengthens allins or flip-a-coin attacks? Yeah! thanks blizzard, pls don't buff anything that will make sc2 a better game... "Hurr durr, Babyknight a-moved colossus gateway units straight into swarmhost infestor viper corruptor for 40 minutes and didn't win, protoss so weeeaakkkkkk"
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Compare ZanXala this to situation when stehano dont have to move anything and he was still winning, just automove from SH
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it's good so finally other races will know what it's like to not be able to leave your base like vs muta and drops.
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On May 29 2013 22:13 xokati wrote:Compare ZanXala this to situation when stehano dont have to move anything and he was still winning, just automove from SH
I'm not saying swarmhost is a good unit, I fucking despise it but you can't do a balance call on babyknight not knowing how to play the game. It's not even hard to see that you shouldn't attack with a midgame composition into a unit that's designed to hold position. For example, whenever a zerg player moves in for a ground based attack vs a lot of tanks ( e.g. DIMAGA vs MVP) everyone start screaming how stupid the zerg is. But when babyknight did the equivalent for PvZ everyone goes "oh yeah it really must be imbalanced". Also, 2 protoss in ro8 for KR, 1 protoss in ro8 for EU and 3 protoss in ro8 for America isn't a big sign towards imbalance, and the proposed change is fucking stupid.
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On May 29 2013 22:13 xokati wrote:Compare ZanXala this to situation when stehano dont have to move anything and he was still winning, just automove from SH
Not to forget automove from the vipers, autoabduct from the vipers, automove from the corruptors autocreep spread and autoheal from the queens. Pretty imba guys this stephano, finding all those hidden tricks.
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I agree that BK counter was silly and benefit was not possible. I agree that warp prism change is stupid and to honest i dont think that it will make almost any difference. Well, we will see immortal/lot all-in 6 seconds faster in zerg main base, thats all.
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EPT
