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On May 30 2013 03:43 rikter wrote:
I really hope they ditch this idea.
I play T, as it is Protoss has been given:
1) Planetary Nexus (that has stupid range and attacks air as well) so early game barracks aggression is kinda hurting
2) The strongest most herp derp lategame unit composition, period (collossus/templar).
3) Cheaper upgrades, which can also be chronoboosted.
4) Warp in mechanic that negates defenders advantage
As it is Im weaker in the early game, the late game, so lets go and buff some of their midgame units too, fuck it. This doesnt break the deathball, it just makes it easier for Protoss to warp in wherever the hell they feel like it instead of having to take a little bit of time and build a damn pylon or run the units across the map like everyone else.
What an overwhelming amount of evidence you've made to support your claims! Extremely impressive argument you've put forward that I definitely haven't read 50,000 other times in the same manner with zero actual evidence to support it.
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I think this change can only be good for the game. Seeing more Warp Prism play alongside Warp Prism + Immortal or Warp Prism + Colossus drop play will increase the fun factor of playing Protoss while simultaneously increasing the spectator experience.
Props to the balance team for coming up with such a great solution.
Stop worrying about balance for a second here guys. This is good design.
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On May 30 2013 03:50 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 03:35 Swisslink wrote:
Well, I think we got a problem here:
Protoss perform pretty damn well in PvZ in Korea (GSL AND Proleague above 50% by quite a bit) and decent in PvT (pretty close to 50%, a little bit below) but they're just not performing well at all in Europe.
I'm just wondering which tournaments Blizzard took in consideration for the statement that the Protoss are underperforming on the highest level of play in Korea. The amount of Protoss is pretty damn low but that's not a result of the current state of the game, because all the qualifiers for Code S Season 1 were played in WoL. And in Code S as well as in Code A, the winrate of the Protoss players is above the winrates of the other two races. What GSL are you watching? Protoss is definitely not the highest winrate in GSL. They are even or slightly below in both their matches. And please for the love of Flash stop referencing Proleague. The bo1 format is inherently advantageous to the gimmicky plays that Protoss can make, and team leagues are filled with sniper builds, gimmicky rushes etc. bo1 team leagues are not valid indicators of balance whatsoever
Well, I was referring to GSL Code S + Code A.
Code S PvT: 6:5 if you count the matches, 15:15 if you count the maps
Code S PvZ: 5:6 if you cound the matches, 23:24 if you count the maps
Overall Winrates:
Protoss: 49% (38:39)
Zerg: 49% (58:59)
Terran: 52% (51:49)
Code S + Code A PvT: 10:10 matches, 25:28 maps
Code S + Code A PvZ: 9:5 matches, 52:43 maps
Overall Winrate:
Protoss: 52%
Zerg: 48%
Terran: 49%
So... yeah :-P
You're right for Code S alone, but with about 2 maps more lost than won in Code S alone max, that seems pretty damn balanced and can definitely not be called "underperforming" xD
And I agree that the proleague is no appropriate reference - but I was just looking for a league where Protoss were underperforming... and haven't found one. That's why I included the Proleague.
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I played Protoss since the release of Starcraft 1 but recently switched to Zerg cause I hate Protoss gameplay way to much.
You might not agree but here are my two cents:
The current stat of the game kinda forces protoss to play allins instead of playing solid strategies (imho there are none which don't result in a deathball). If you like playing allins all the time and know how to execute them well you'll be fine with protoss.
I don't know how this can be fixed in HotS as 9 out of 18 Protoss units are mostly gimmiky air units (compared to 5/15 for terran and zerg) while gatewayunits still become less viable in lategame. As Blizzard won't add/remove units until the next addon it might be impossible without resulting in really odd gameplay.
IMHO all t + z have to do is to be ready to counter air play and learn how to deal with ground allins which is pretty doable.
After all the Warpprism buff seems like a joke and won't make Protoss more fun to play.
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Blizzard is trying to give Toss better options for non all-in pressure. But this is probably not the right way to do it. The problem with warp prisms is that they have low capacity, so you can't retreat more than a few units after warping them in. Also, Toss doesn't have a cheap ranged unit with high DPS. So you're stuck warping in melee units that the enemy can flee from -- or you use super expensive units like HTs or Immortals. Consequently, Toss drops are quite risky and thus more all in than Terrain drops regardless of the speed upgrade.
I encourage everyone to check out the OneGoal mod to see a comprehensive and interesting proposal to improve the design of Toss (and the other races). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388155
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Nice change, will add a lot of skill to protoss play and I feel will make the game more balanced. My worry is that Zerg is going to have the most problems though and would like to see sunken's buffed so they have a bit better static defense.
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I fear we're entering a stage where air units are just better than ground units. Having the ability to ignore cliffs, being able to see high ground, need AA attack to be killed and dead space (only air unit space) is such huge advantage that air units need to be significantly worse than ground units, however in HotS this is not the case.
Maps will probably need to have almost no cliffs to promote ground unit play, which removes a lot of strategic advantage.
This is my concern, but ignoring that I do feel Robo play, needed the buff the most and Warp Prism is the most agressive option, in Robo play.
I mean the gameplay will certainly be fun, but I think Blizzard is forcing it a bit too much, buffing all fun units, means they'll simply outclass some of the other units, making the game stale in the long run.
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I'd be happy with the warp prism change if zergs can get tier 1 hydralisks...
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On May 30 2013 03:54 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 03:43 rikter wrote:
I really hope they ditch this idea.
I play T, as it is Protoss has been given:
1) Planetary Nexus (that has stupid range and attacks air as well) so early game barracks aggression is kinda hurting
2) The strongest most herp derp lategame unit composition, period (collossus/templar).
3) Cheaper upgrades, which can also be chronoboosted.
4) Warp in mechanic that negates defenders advantage
As it is Im weaker in the early game, the late game, so lets go and buff some of their midgame units too, fuck it. This doesnt break the deathball, it just makes it easier for Protoss to warp in wherever the hell they feel like it instead of having to take a little bit of time and build a damn pylon or run the units across the map like everyone else.
What an overwhelming amount of evidence you've made to support your claims! Extremely impressive argument you've put forward that I definitely haven't read 50,000 other times in the same manner with zero actual evidence to support it.
1) FACT: Protoss has been given planetary Nexus as EVIDENCED by the fact that its in the damn game
FACT: The planetary nexus has the range of a siege tank, attacks air, and (one of) its effects in the game is to help protoss against pushes that arent supported by medivacs.
3) FACT go to friggin liquipedia and look at the upgrade costs, you will notice that the Toss upgrades cost less than their Terran counterpart
FACT Protoss can use chronoboost on upgrades to get them out faster
4) FACT warpin mechanic negates defenders advantage, period. Thats the whole point of warping in; you can reinforce anywhere you have a pylon so your units dont walk across the map. Units walking across the map is what creates defenders advantage, warping in directly at the enemy base negates this.
These three points pretty much speak for themselves, and I really dont know what evidence you are looking for to support them, unless you want liquipedia links or something. Making my 2 rax openings less effective hurts my early game (to say nothing of Toss's ENHANCED early game potential with Oracle, MSC, buffed voids), having to (usually) play at an upgrade disadvantage hurts the late game. Warpgates are unchanged but only an idiot would say its not helpful to be able to directly reinforce at the point of attack...
Maybe the only thing you sort of have a point about is 2), but come on man, I think its pretty much common knowledge that the late game collossus templar deathball is very strong against bio, and that it is easier to fight with than the corresponding Terran army that will counter it.
All of these points are pretty much common knowledge, and the reason they get brought up is that Toss has some pretty good advantages throughout the game already, so I don't understand at all why they suddenly need faster warp prisms to go along with them. They can upgrade the damn warp prism speed at the Robo bay as it stands, god forbid they have to forgo thermal lance if they want to rush straight into heavy harass with speed prisms. Do you not understand this point? This doesn't seem like kind of a random thing to buff?
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On May 30 2013 04:05 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 03:50 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 03:35 Swisslink wrote:
Well, I think we got a problem here:
Protoss perform pretty damn well in PvZ in Korea (GSL AND Proleague above 50% by quite a bit) and decent in PvT (pretty close to 50%, a little bit below) but they're just not performing well at all in Europe.
I'm just wondering which tournaments Blizzard took in consideration for the statement that the Protoss are underperforming on the highest level of play in Korea. The amount of Protoss is pretty damn low but that's not a result of the current state of the game, because all the qualifiers for Code S Season 1 were played in WoL. And in Code S as well as in Code A, the winrate of the Protoss players is above the winrates of the other two races. What GSL are you watching? Protoss is definitely not the highest winrate in GSL. They are even or slightly below in both their matches. And please for the love of Flash stop referencing Proleague. The bo1 format is inherently advantageous to the gimmicky plays that Protoss can make, and team leagues are filled with sniper builds, gimmicky rushes etc. bo1 team leagues are not valid indicators of balance whatsoever Well, I was referring to GSL Code S + Code A. Code S PvT: 6:5 if you count the matches, 15:15 if you count the maps Code S PvZ: 5:6 if you cound the matches, 23:24 if you count the maps Overall Winrates: Protoss: 49% (38:39) Zerg: 49% (58:59) Terran: 52% (51:49) Code S + Code A PvT: 10:10 matches, 25:28 maps Code S + Code A PvZ: 9:5 matches, 52:43 maps Overall Winrate: Protoss: 52% Zerg: 48% Terran: 49% So... yeah :-P You're right for Code S alone, but with about 2 maps more lost than won in Code S alone max, that seems pretty damn balanced and can definitely not be called "underperforming" xD And I agree that the proleague is no appropriate reference - but I was just looking for a league where Protoss were underperforming... and haven't found one. That's why I included the Proleague.
WCS EU
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I think no upgrade for speed but low hp would be better.
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On May 30 2013 05:32 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 04:05 Swisslink wrote:On May 30 2013 03:50 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 03:35 Swisslink wrote:
Well, I think we got a problem here:
Protoss perform pretty damn well in PvZ in Korea (GSL AND Proleague above 50% by quite a bit) and decent in PvT (pretty close to 50%, a little bit below) but they're just not performing well at all in Europe.
I'm just wondering which tournaments Blizzard took in consideration for the statement that the Protoss are underperforming on the highest level of play in Korea. The amount of Protoss is pretty damn low but that's not a result of the current state of the game, because all the qualifiers for Code S Season 1 were played in WoL. And in Code S as well as in Code A, the winrate of the Protoss players is above the winrates of the other two races. What GSL are you watching? Protoss is definitely not the highest winrate in GSL. They are even or slightly below in both their matches. And please for the love of Flash stop referencing Proleague. The bo1 format is inherently advantageous to the gimmicky plays that Protoss can make, and team leagues are filled with sniper builds, gimmicky rushes etc. bo1 team leagues are not valid indicators of balance whatsoever Well, I was referring to GSL Code S + Code A. Code S PvT: 6:5 if you count the matches, 15:15 if you count the maps Code S PvZ: 5:6 if you cound the matches, 23:24 if you count the maps Overall Winrates: Protoss: 49% (38:39) Zerg: 49% (58:59) Terran: 52% (51:49) Code S + Code A PvT: 10:10 matches, 25:28 maps Code S + Code A PvZ: 9:5 matches, 52:43 maps Overall Winrate: Protoss: 52% Zerg: 48% Terran: 49% So... yeah :-P You're right for Code S alone, but with about 2 maps more lost than won in Code S alone max, that seems pretty damn balanced and can definitely not be called "underperforming" xD And I agree that the proleague is no appropriate reference - but I was just looking for a league where Protoss were underperforming... and haven't found one. That's why I included the Proleague. WCS EU
Doesn't change what he said. Matchups are balanced for one region; the region that most people would say is the strongest right now.
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I love this change, warp prism is the key to making protoss more watchable for me!
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Wow, looking over this thread, the amount of over-reaction - especially by Zerg and Terran.
It is a minor buff to the warp-prism. Protoss fighting units have not received a buff in any way, shape or form. Even the buff is a projected one which, if it does what Blizzard hopes, may be adjusted. It will help Protoss drop play but Protoss will still have the issue of what to drop. If we are talking of Immortal/Colossus/HT drops backed up by sacrificial Zealot warp-ins then this will be good for the game (both from a player and spectator point of view). It will also increase the skill level of Protoss play which, apparently, a lot of people have been wanting for a long time (just not in this way - or so it seems). It is unlikely to have a substantive effect on the efficacy of Protoss all-ins because while the WP is faster the units are not produced any faster, production units are not built faster, tech structures are not built faster, resources are not built faster etc.
Calm down and see how it goes. It's a minor buff that may enhance Protoss play - specifically for a minority of Protoss players with the skill to use WP well. For most of us ladder monkeys, it is not going to be easy. It won't break the game.
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I reaaaally hope this goes live, but then again, im protoss! :D
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On May 30 2013 05:38 aZealot wrote:
Wow, looking over this thread, the amount of over-reaction - especially by Zerg and Terran.
It is a minor buff to the warp-prism. Protoss fighting units have not received a buff in any way, shape or form. Even the buff is a projected one which, if it does what Blizzard hopes, may be adjusted. It will help Protoss drop play but Protoss will still have the issue of what to drop. If we are talking of Immortal/Colossus/HT drops backed up by sacrificial Zealot warp-ins then this will be good for the game (both from a player and spectator point of view). It will also increase the skill level of Protoss play which, apparently, a lot of people have been wanting for a long time (just not in this way - or so it seems). It is unlikely to have a substantive effect on the efficacy of Protoss all-ins because while the WP is faster the units are not produced any faster, production units are not built faster, tech structures are not built faster, resources are not built faster etc.
Calm down and see how it goes. It's a minor buff that may enhance Protoss play - specifically for a minority of Protoss players with the skill to use WP well. For most of us ladder monkeys, it is not going to be easy. It won't break the game.
Well, I believe it is actually a major buff. Like, medivac boosters were a major buff for Terran.
I'd rather have them just straight up buff the speed and the upgraded speed:
2.5-->2.75 or 3.0 normal speed
upgrade: +0.875-->1.0 speed buff
which would still buff both, the warp prism and the speed prism.
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On May 30 2013 00:54 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 00:43 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 00:26 sitromit wrote:On May 30 2013 00:14 Plansix wrote:On May 30 2013 00:09 sitromit wrote:
This is so funny. In ro8 we had Parting vs Soulkey which was a very close series, 3-2. If Parting won the last game, we would have had 2 Toss in ro4, and a guaranteed Toss in finals.
Didn't happen we got Soulkey vs sOs, once again extremely close series, 4-3. Everyone said during the last game, that had sOs actually target fired the few Corrupters that killed his Colossi, or sniped Soulkey's 3rd Hatchery which had very few HP left, he would have probably won that game. Once again, we'd be looking at a PvT GSL finals and no one would be able to complain that Protoss is weak.
If you look at win rates in Korea, Protoss is doing fine and not just in Proleague where they're dominating but in the GSL and GSTL as well.
So how many Protoss will we see at the WCS season one, world finals? Will it be more than 1 out of 18? What about the other regions where they are doing poorly, like EU? Do those not count? Other regions? Protoss is doing fine in America. If they're doing fine in 2 out of 3 regions, that means Toss needs a buff? Here are the overall stats for EU: Premiere: PvT 44%, PvZ 49%, TvZ 58% Challenger: PvT 52%, PvZ 57%, TvZ 56% That doesn't look like Protoss needs a buff to me. LOL the stats you posted are actually just flat wrong! Here's the REAL stats for WCS EU as presented by liquipedia. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series/StatisticsPremiere: PvT 32.4%, PvZ 40.0% Challenger: PvT 30.0%, PvZ 41.4% Not sure where you got your information from. I got them from Aligulac. http://aligulac.com/results/events/12946-WCS-2013-Season-1-Europe/
http://aligulac.com/results/events/12947-WCS-2013-Season-1-Europe-Premier/
includes the qualifiers. I'm assuming that's the problem.
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On May 30 2013 05:26 rikter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 03:54 Wingblade wrote:On May 30 2013 03:43 rikter wrote:
I really hope they ditch this idea.
I play T, as it is Protoss has been given:
1) Planetary Nexus (that has stupid range and attacks air as well) so early game barracks aggression is kinda hurting
2) The strongest most herp derp lategame unit composition, period (collossus/templar).
3) Cheaper upgrades, which can also be chronoboosted.
4) Warp in mechanic that negates defenders advantage
As it is Im weaker in the early game, the late game, so lets go and buff some of their midgame units too, fuck it. This doesnt break the deathball, it just makes it easier for Protoss to warp in wherever the hell they feel like it instead of having to take a little bit of time and build a damn pylon or run the units across the map like everyone else.
What an overwhelming amount of evidence you've made to support your claims! Extremely impressive argument you've put forward that I definitely haven't read 50,000 other times in the same manner with zero actual evidence to support it. 1) FACT: Protoss has been given planetary Nexus as EVIDENCED by the fact that its in the damn game FACT: The planetary nexus has the range of a siege tank, attacks air, and (one of) its effects in the game is to help protoss against pushes that arent supported by medivacs. 3) FACT go to friggin liquipedia and look at the upgrade costs, you will notice that the Toss upgrades cost less than their Terran counterpart FACT Protoss can use chronoboost on upgrades to get them out faster 4) FACT warpin mechanic negates defenders advantage, period. Thats the whole point of warping in; you can reinforce anywhere you have a pylon so your units dont walk across the map. Units walking across the map is what creates defenders advantage, warping in directly at the enemy base negates this. These three points pretty much speak for themselves, and I really dont know what evidence you are looking for to support them, unless you want liquipedia links or something. Making my 2 rax openings less effective hurts my early game (to say nothing of Toss's ENHANCED early game potential with Oracle, MSC, buffed voids), having to (usually) play at an upgrade disadvantage hurts the late game. Warpgates are unchanged but only an idiot would say its not helpful to be able to directly reinforce at the point of attack... Maybe the only thing you sort of have a point about is 2), but come on man, I think its pretty much common knowledge that the late game collossus templar deathball is very strong against bio, and that it is easier to fight with than the corresponding Terran army that will counter it. All of these points are pretty much common knowledge, and the reason they get brought up is that Toss has some pretty good advantages throughout the game already, so I don't understand at all why they suddenly need faster warp prisms to go along with them. They can upgrade the damn warp prism speed at the Robo bay as it stands, god forbid they have to forgo thermal lance if they want to rush straight into heavy harass with speed prisms. Do you not understand this point? This doesn't seem like kind of a random thing to buff?
You don't get it... You tell us all these things we have, and yet you can't explain why Protoss has no tournament wins in HOTS, why Europe was entirely devoid was Protoss, and why the only reason Korea winrates look ok is because of the teamleagues and why Protoss winrates are lowest across the board.
You can describe all these things we have, but at the end of the day Protoss has been shown to be weakest anyways.
Regardless, point 4 is where your wrong for one. Defenders advantage in Starcraft 2 comes from more than just travel distance. The ability to create sim city with your buildings to restrict movement as well as those unique things each race gets, I.e. repair for Terran, creep for Zerg, and now the MSC and or warp in for Protoss.
If number 4 was an issue, Terran would never hold off Protoss gateways allins because they will have less units automatically while teching and the distance is negated. So why can Terran hold these allins anyways? Repair. Repair creates defenders advantage.
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Why not give them (warp prisms) emergency boosters? Maybe boosters for Overlords? Boosters for every race! 
I think 'blink' ability added to prisms would be better
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On May 30 2013 05:38 aZealot wrote:
Wow, looking over this thread, the amount of over-reaction - especially by Zerg and Terran.
It is a minor buff to the warp-prism. Protoss fighting units have not received a buff in any way, shape or form. Even the buff is a projected one which, if it does what Blizzard hopes, may be adjusted. It will help Protoss drop play but Protoss will still have the issue of what to drop. If we are talking of Immortal/Colossus/HT drops backed up by sacrificial Zealot warp-ins then this will be good for the game (both from a player and spectator point of view). It will also increase the skill level of Protoss play which, apparently, a lot of people have been wanting for a long time (just not in this way - or so it seems). It is unlikely to have a substantive effect on the efficacy of Protoss all-ins because while the WP is faster the units are not produced any faster, production units are not built faster, tech structures are not built faster, resources are not built faster etc.
Calm down and see how it goes. It's a minor buff that may enhance Protoss play - specifically for a minority of Protoss players with the skill to use WP well. For most of us ladder monkeys, it is not going to be easy. It won't break the game.
It doesnt need to break the game to get peoples hackles up. If you believe that Toss arent at a competitive disadvantage right now (and I don't), then its hard to understand why they need this at all, especially since the reasoning seems to be "we want to see more drop play" as opposed to the game not being balanced. Of all the things you could tinker with, THIS is the one that gets chosen!?! If they really wanted to get toss to branch out they should alter the collosus. Creating a siege unit that can move and fire while giving high ground vision that cant really be attacked into is a recipe for boring games. I find PvT to be about as awful as TvT used to be, and thats really saying something. To top it all off, my early aggression gets nerfed while theres gets buffed, and their lategame was always better to begin with, so buffing their midgame just makes no fucking sense at all to me, regardless of how major or minor it is.
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