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On May 29 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 03:53 Pursuit_ wrote:On May 29 2013 03:51 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 03:46 Wingblade wrote:On May 29 2013 03:43 sitromit wrote:Did you actually look at the stats you posted? Korea Code S: 48.9% PvZ, 50% PvT Korea Code A: 54.8% PvZ, 48% PvT I don't know how anyone can quote those stats as an indication of imbalance with a straight face. Cherrypicking like a boss. Look at the overall WCS winrates. Of course the 30 games per matchup in Korea is all we need for balance right? We can disregard the 33 percent PvT winrate in Europe because well hey it's not Korea right? That is how you win arguments on the internet. You take "data" from the area that supports your argument and then claim over and over that all other data irrelevant for due to your data being the best. Just wait for the arguments that Korea is the highest level of play and all other regions don't matter, ever.(unless protoss is winning in those regions, then they should be nerfed because everyone isn't a GSL Korean pro) Did you even read the discussion? The first post in this chain specifically says Protoss is not under performing IN KOREA. You're the one taking data that supports your argument when it doesn't apply. edit: It's even bolded and highlighted. Clearly 30 games from Korea are what we need to balance for the entire scene. Why do those 30 games matter more than others and why do people keep referencing them as if they are more important? Aren't they offset by that fact that there are only 6 protoss in the round of 8 across all three regions and there may be no protoss at the finals for WSC for season 1?
Protoss is definitely under performing in AM and EU, no arguments there. I'm merely amused that you are arguing to a completely different point than what was originally posted. The first post claimed that Protoss is not under performing in Korea; Wingblade disputed that, citing statistics which say Protoss is doing fine in Korea but not in AM / EU. And then you claimed people arguing that Protoss is doing fine in KR are cherry picking by only including statistics from KR, which was the point to begin with- that Protoss is doing fine in KR.
I'm really not sure what there is to argue about; Protoss is not under performing in Korea, which has a higher level of play than EU / AM, where Protoss admittedly is under performing. I'm not going to claim anything about balance, but at least get your statistics right. Maybe KR Protoss have just been more lucky rolling the dice, maybe more KR T/Z are in EU / AM than KR P, maybe foreign P are behind in the metagame, who knows.
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On May 29 2013 04:14 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:06 figq wrote:On May 29 2013 04:02 Karpfen wrote:On May 29 2013 04:01 figq wrote:On May 29 2013 03:57 Karpfen wrote:
I've always wondered.... why can't an overlord carry 16lings? Are the lings to op the that deserve the same treatment as the hellbat? Cargo space is not the same as supply. Otherwise Tanks would take 3 space instead of 4. Thanks for repeating what I said. Still a zergling takes the same cargo space as a marine for no reason. No, I'm not repeating what you said - you are defending equalizing supply and cargo which is just not the case in many examples and not just the nerfed hellbats. Also please read the rest of my post which I edited in. I can defend a concept even if it isn't in the game. I don't see your point. Zerg drop isn't exactly good despite having a lot of drop ships because it's very very all-innish and lacks the speed to be used continuously in a game. Plus the overlords have no role in both engagements (apart from the super-rare and gimmicky baneling drop) and reinforcing (warp prism). Sure, they are cheap and provide supply but they way they are made makes it so that if you get overlord drop you must use it in an all-in kind of way (which is bad, swarm or not). I agree the gimmicky aspect of it makes me sad too - I want to have more fun with drops as well and not just on a one time all-ins. About the function - technically they also provide creep, and especially with a queen or two in the drop you can even start spreading it. I've considered the following (possibly OP) change: Protoss can't warp on creep, that would make this function so much more important.
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On May 29 2013 04:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 02:54 TheKhyira wrote:On May 29 2013 02:49 ffadicted wrote:
Maybe not that fast, but good change tbh. WTF @ people saying it will lead to more all-ins, wut? Please elaborate how this will enable much better all-ins/create new sick all-ins You scout double gas in TvP while expanding, now let's play the guessing game for some of the possibilities. Proxy oracle Pooling void ray 3 gate Proxy robo Inbase robo 3 gate sentry 4 gate 4 gate prism 4 gate blink obs 4 gate blink msc dt rush dt prism All of which requires different amount of bunkers and/or turrets, addons and marine positioning. The only real way to block prism gate all ins is to shoot it down right as it flies in, except if it's faster it's harder. And it's not like you can really afford to durdle 6-7 marines in your main because herp derp a good amount of the mentioned all ins will just roll right over you at the front. And that's not even considering what happens if it's an expand build with either light harras or greedy tech. I scout terran. I can't get in (2supply1barrack). Terran have so many options.
You got Nexus Cannon.
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On May 29 2013 04:13 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 03:53 Pursuit_ wrote:On May 29 2013 03:51 Plansix wrote:On May 29 2013 03:46 Wingblade wrote:On May 29 2013 03:43 sitromit wrote:Did you actually look at the stats you posted? Korea Code S: 48.9% PvZ, 50% PvT Korea Code A: 54.8% PvZ, 48% PvT I don't know how anyone can quote those stats as an indication of imbalance with a straight face. Cherrypicking like a boss. Look at the overall WCS winrates. Of course the 30 games per matchup in Korea is all we need for balance right? We can disregard the 33 percent PvT winrate in Europe because well hey it's not Korea right? That is how you win arguments on the internet. You take "data" from the area that supports your argument and then claim over and over that all other data irrelevant for due to your data being the best. Just wait for the arguments that Korea is the highest level of play and all other regions don't matter, ever.(unless protoss is winning in those regions, then they should be nerfed because everyone isn't a GSL Korean pro) Did you even read the discussion? The first post in this chain specifically says Protoss is not under performing IN KOREA. You're the one taking data that supports your argument when it doesn't apply. edit: It's even bolded and highlighted. Clearly 30 games from Korea are what we need to balance for the entire scene. Why do those 30 games matter more than others and why do people keep referencing them as if they are more important? Aren't they offset by that fact that there are only 6 protoss in the round of 8 across all three regions and there may be no protoss at the finals for WSC for season 1? You DO realize that Blizzard specifically points to "THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF PLAY" and "IN KOREA" in the opening statements justifying the reason for this buff. Why wouldn't THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF PLAY IN KOREA be relevant? Why should anything else matter MORE than EXACTLY WHAT BLIZZARD REFERRED TO!?!?
But at the highest level in Korea, there are only two protoss in the round of 8, both who got knocked out? Or does that not matter and we are just going to look at all the Proleague games because protoss won those?
And Blizzard's sentence also references Europe too, which people have ignored because they don't have stats to "prove" protoss is doing fine. You now, Europe with its 1 protoss that has already been eliminated.
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Sadly the biggest change I see with this is more "cheesy" early game plays such warp prism 4gates, immortal/colossi drops and lots of people FFing the ramp.
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Warp prisms are already hella fast. It's really stupid because unless zerg is playing mutalisk style, zerg just won't have the defense to take them out because the only really reliable anti-air you have is going to be queens. Already if you send an army and you see a warp prism cruise by with an overlord, you have to bring a decent chunk of units (and hopefully you were goin ghydra) because even if the queens are in position to intercept it, you can dive in, drop the 4 zealots, and then move a few feet bakc and start warping in because there's no real way to kill it in time for it to not deploy.
Combined with the very low cost of a warp prism and protoss' already strong late game and robo build time being less of a premium to toss players in HotS, I just don't see this helping at least ZvP get any better at all.
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It is obviously still far worse then a medivac so I don't see an issue with it.
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Hopefully it doesn't get used for all ins and gets used to harass the opponents economy. Not enough Protoss players go for a harassment based style
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Having trouble against MVPtails build? 7:20 dt drop at your base? Not a problem anymore!
We re-scheduled it to 6.50. gl hf
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Give ovies drop when the speed upgrade is researched and I'm all for this change.
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Could be good, protoss feels too all-inish so maybe that would allow them to harrass while teching/macroing.
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As the top voted reddit comment stated in a brilliant in-depth analysis, this promotes drop play.
But seriously, with the pretty much agreed upon notion of protoss having a lower skill ceiling than the other two races and not as many possibilities of utilizing their multi tasking capabilities, this is a great change. Also it gives protoss more offensive capabilities which we sorely need.
I approve of this message.
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On May 29 2013 04:20 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:14 Karpfen wrote:On May 29 2013 04:06 figq wrote:On May 29 2013 04:02 Karpfen wrote:On May 29 2013 04:01 figq wrote:On May 29 2013 03:57 Karpfen wrote:
I've always wondered.... why can't an overlord carry 16lings? Are the lings to op the that deserve the same treatment as the hellbat? Cargo space is not the same as supply. Otherwise Tanks would take 3 space instead of 4. Thanks for repeating what I said. Still a zergling takes the same cargo space as a marine for no reason. No, I'm not repeating what you said - you are defending equalizing supply and cargo which is just not the case in many examples and not just the nerfed hellbats. Also please read the rest of my post which I edited in. I can defend a concept even if it isn't in the game. I don't see your point. Zerg drop isn't exactly good despite having a lot of drop ships because it's very very all-innish and lacks the speed to be used continuously in a game. Plus the overlords have no role in both engagements (apart from the super-rare and gimmicky baneling drop) and reinforcing (warp prism). Sure, they are cheap and provide supply but they way they are made makes it so that if you get overlord drop you must use it in an all-in kind of way (which is bad, swarm or not). I agree the gimmicky aspect of it makes me sad too - I want to have more fun with drops as well and not just on a one time all-ins. About the function - technically they also provide creep, and especially with a queen or two in the drop you can even start spreading it. I've considered the following (possibly OP) change: Protoss can't warp on creep, that would make this function so much more important.
Hm perhaps it would be too much. It would make the warp prism way way weaker for harass vs Z because I would just get the overlords to poop in my bases/I would spread creep.
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On May 29 2013 04:07 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:06 StarcraftNerd1547 wrote:
No, please no! Zealot/DT warpins are already so crazy hard to deal with. This will make it so that they can do it earlier and it will make TvP a really hard MU past 2 bases, when it comes to keeping eco up. Oh damn, hard to defend past two bases?!?!?!?! Sounds like PvT with speed medivacs!!! Freaking Terran players, man. Also, DT play won't come any earlier lol, the DT shrine build time is the limiting factor, not the warp prism's speed.
The difference is, terran needs to be the agreessor, while protoss is content with sitting back and defending unless they are going for an allin.
I understand that building dts is a lategame thing still, but I said PAST two bases. From my experience currently most tosses go super greeedy while protected by the mcore, once the planetary nexus isnt as effective anymore they already have most of what they need, so currently most tosses go ht and collo on two bases to secure third, or they dont goget the hts and rush charge and blink isntead, with double upgrades.
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On May 29 2013 04:19 Swiipii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:10 TheBarcid wrote:
Buffing instead of nerfing is harder, but healthier in the long run. I'm not sure if the change is perfect but they are looking in the right direction.
I really hope this stops swarmhost zvp in its tracks. Or at least makes it more interesting to watch. Stephano's zvp games in wcs eu were painful reminders of WOL style play, powerful, but BORING. Yeah that have nothing to do with the pathetic display of multitasking babyk showed during that series . The guy forgot his warp prism in a corner and didn't do anything with it ffs . -_- HerO is the only top Protoss player who has been consistently using warp prism harrass in PvZ . Also in late game you can afford speed easily so buff or not buff it doesn't change a thing . In PvZ it's only a buff to 2 base all ins . Don't know about PvT tough . Protoss players are having a hard time dealing with the speed medivac harrass, maybe this buff will help but I doubt so . Wrong buff imho .
Good point, its easy to get speed in the late game. Maybe both the upgraded speed and base speed should be faster, to make it better in the late game.
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I'm just going to start out by saying I am completely biased when it comes to ZvP. It has been my worst match up for all of WoL by far, and it's still the worst in HotS. It's the only race where I can go into SC2gears and see that even at high masters, I got beat by some dude with less than 120 apm. It blows my mind and it's a bit frustrating. One of my Diamond friends even picked up Protoss less than a month ago and suddenly he is in master and is actually quite high right now after just three-four weeks.
One of the issues when balancing Protoss is that because of warp gate, their all ins are incredibly strong. So how do you make the race generally playable without also buffing these moves? Also super turtling Protoss into ultimate late game army has because of the strong units and very nice syngery been very strong traditionally. Where the weakness lies is if you want to play a middel of the road some teching / expoing but still being aggressive like we see Zerg and Terrans do which creates the fun that is the ZvT MU.
How to solve this? I have no idea...This is not the worst suggestion ever though it's still going to make some all ins and turtling better which is not ideal. But the issues seem to be very fundamental. I honestly hoped they would completely rework the race for HotS, but I guess I can still hope for the final expansion 
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I can't decide whether this is good or bad as a Terran player.. But then we have Medivacs speed boost so I guess it's only fair.
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How to fix things from wol->hots? Remove upgrades. Good job blizz, now it's time to remove observer speed also.
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terrible change zzz. protoss players are just going to rush for gimmicky rushes again on top of the other garbage they can already do with the MSC and oracle.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GVFU7No.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2VGA4RP.png)
