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On May 29 2013 02:40 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 02:31 SupremeHD wrote:
really stupid idea, have lings with speed from the start then i call it "balanced" Because the Warp Prism is a gateway unit and a core unit in most protoss compositions, just like the zergling is for zerg, yes? On-topic: I'm cautiously optimistic about this change. Protoss has a lot of harass potential, but most players have grown so used to playing the turtle style that they refuse to try and change their styles up. Understandable, but quite sad. This might be a push in the right direction.
This is something I kinda worry about. Zerg used to be able to scout robo tech and know their economy was relatively safe (obviously still need to balance econ/military, but the drones wouldn't be in as much trouble as stargate tech). Now I think the options available against zerg will force them to have a standing army much sooner, and slow down their econ to the point where they lose their early econ advantage over toss.
I'm all for the change going through, looking at it objectively (subjectively? Whichever means from the neutral point of view) I can see how it would be a good thing for gameplay, but I worry that it'll go too far and I'll hate 2 matchups and not just zvz :p
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On May 29 2013 04:06 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:02 Karpfen wrote:On May 29 2013 04:01 figq wrote:On May 29 2013 03:57 Karpfen wrote:
I've always wondered.... why can't an overlord carry 16lings? Are the lings to op the that deserve the same treatment as the hellbat? Cargo space is not the same as supply. Otherwise Tanks would take 3 space instead of 4. Thanks for repeating what I said. Still a zergling takes the same cargo space as a marine for no reason. No, I'm not repeating what you said - you are defending equalizing supply and cargo which is just not the case in many examples and not just the nerfed hellbats. Also please read the rest of my post which I edited in.
I can defend a concept even if it isn't in the game. I don't see your point. Zerg drop isn't exactly good despite having a lot of drop ships because it's very very all-innish and lacks the speed to be used continuously in a game. Plus the overlords have no role in both engagements (apart from the super-rare and gimmicky baneling drop) and reinforcing (warp prism). Sure, they are cheap and provide supply but they way they are made makes it so that if you get overlord drop you must use it in an all-in kind of way (which is bad, swarm or not).
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Even though I voted yes, I think maybe a buff to zealot speed might be a workable alternative. I'm thinking VERY minor like from 2.25 to 2.30 or something like that, just so they don't all die without landing a swing to bio w/o slow shells.
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I'm not sure I like the idea of removing too many upgrades from the game, especially for a race that depends on finding utility for chronoboost.
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On May 29 2013 03:51 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 03:45 ACrow wrote:Yo dawg, I heard you like statistics: GSL winners (regular season + special events such as Super Tournament): Terran: 10 Zerg: 10 Protoss: 3 GSL top 4: Terran: 47 Zerg: 29 Protoss:20 Time since last Protoss champion: 10 months Source+ Show Spoiler +My point is: statistics is always what you make of it. You included for example the very P-heavy Proleague, but not GSTL, WCS NA, AM etc. What a good statistics knowledge you got there. I'm amazed by your large sample size. And seriously, who said they don't include GSTL and WCS NA. The second chart is global. You can wait for the author to release May winrate. He is doing it. Protoss's PvT and PvZ are all above 50%
Sorry, my point in the spoiler seems to be not clearly enough formulated. Of course you cannot make balance decision based on the stats I posted, the data is far too limited. But so are also the stats you posted.
My opinion:
Does Protoss need a buff? I don't really think so. The lack of P results right now is more due to the top P not performing up to their level (I'm looking at you Rain, you should've won another tournament by now) and the top players from other races playing really well. I can see though what they want to do with the prism buff, which is giving more mid game harass and giving more options against heavy SH play, and it might become necessary down the road, but it is too early to make the call. To be fair, that is also exactly what they said in their blog. So, if any of you are Z and T and don't want this buff: don't panic, it's not final 
Oh, and I don't want to be nitpicky, but what I posted isn't a sample, it is rather the absolute of all observed events.
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On May 29 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:08 ZenithM wrote:
Not a bad buff.
I'll allow it. :D
Everything that increases movement speed is alright in my book. As long as we're not giving +2 range to the fucking queen. how about 20 range tempests? fuck it, let's make hellbats hit air.
Well they had 22 range in beta D:
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On May 29 2013 04:10 Latty wrote:
whats the deal with making flying things faster all the time ... its stupid imo drops 24/7
%)
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I never agreed with the previous warp prism buff, let alone another one.
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On May 29 2013 02:54 TheKhyira wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 02:49 ffadicted wrote:
Maybe not that fast, but good change tbh. WTF @ people saying it will lead to more all-ins, wut? Please elaborate how this will enable much better all-ins/create new sick all-ins You scout double gas in TvP while expanding, now let's play the guessing game for some of the possibilities. Proxy oracle Pooling void ray 3 gate Proxy robo Inbase robo 3 gate sentry 4 gate 4 gate prism 4 gate blink obs 4 gate blink msc dt rush dt prism All of which requires different amount of bunkers and/or turrets, addons and marine positioning. The only real way to block prism gate all ins is to shoot it down right as it flies in, except if it's faster it's harder. And it's not like you can really afford to durdle 6-7 marines in your main because herp derp a good amount of the mentioned all ins will just roll right over you at the front. And that's not even considering what happens if it's an expand build with either light harras or greedy tech.
I scout terran. I can't get in (2supply1barrack). Terran have so many options.
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On May 29 2013 04:15 Grumbels wrote:
I'm not sure I like the idea of removing too many upgrades from the game, especially for a race that depends on finding utility for chronoboost.
Good point, I never liked that they removed so many upgrades already (siege tank etc). It limits strategic choices unnecessarily.
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sigh... some people are just terrible at understanding statistics.
when one race is underperforming then you wont necessarily see that by looking at winrates. what you also need to look at is the amount of players of every race that get far in tournaments. it is obvious when there are only 2-3 players of a certain race in the ro16 that they will perform decently and push the winrate because they are most likely the best players of their respective race while there are a couple of mediocre players of the other races.
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I would prefer them slowing down unit speed instead of increasing it. But thats my preference of being able to position and micro instead of being lucky and be at the right spot at the right time.
I think making the robo bay cheaper but increasing the range upgrade would be nice to get to the support upgrades for observer and prism. Though people hate getting any upgrade that doesn't directly effect the damage and reduce of their offensive units, so it wouldn't change anything in the end and just make faking colossus easier.
As Blizzard I would rather say fine keep on losing, but you might wanna try out some researches that only benefit from what you do with it. Instead they give it directly to the unit.
In my eyes removing upgrades is the wrong way of doing it and will only lead to reaching the lategame faster as you breeze through the tech and going from macroing up into the lategame was one thing that made WoL bad at the end.
Someone who wants to use the Speed Prism will have to do work and do damage with it, to make up for the upgrade cost. So they can't just throw it away. So going for it will be a tougher decision and only people will use it that are trained in using it.
On the other hand Blizzard made Zerg and Terran aerial harassment way stronger in HotS, while Protoss just got an to expensive vision spellcaster and a range increase on the Phoenix (which is pretty overpowered with crystals).
Instead of buffing air even more, I would rather see an upgrade for Mutas and Medivacs.
I just hope they stop removing upgrades or we end up with end of WoL like gameplay as well.
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i feel like protoss is DOMINATING pvt right now... do we need the buff..
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On May 29 2013 04:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 02:54 TheKhyira wrote:On May 29 2013 02:49 ffadicted wrote:
Maybe not that fast, but good change tbh. WTF @ people saying it will lead to more all-ins, wut? Please elaborate how this will enable much better all-ins/create new sick all-ins You scout double gas in TvP while expanding, now let's play the guessing game for some of the possibilities. Proxy oracle Pooling void ray 3 gate Proxy robo Inbase robo 3 gate sentry 4 gate 4 gate prism 4 gate blink obs 4 gate blink msc dt rush dt prism All of which requires different amount of bunkers and/or turrets, addons and marine positioning. The only real way to block prism gate all ins is to shoot it down right as it flies in, except if it's faster it's harder. And it's not like you can really afford to durdle 6-7 marines in your main because herp derp a good amount of the mentioned all ins will just roll right over you at the front. And that's not even considering what happens if it's an expand build with either light harras or greedy tech. I scout terran. I can't get in (2supply1barrack). Terran have so many options.
Like losing depots to a stalk/stalk/MSC poke?
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protoss underperforming in korea is simply a lie lol, but whatever, it isn't as bad of a change as I'm used from blizzard
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On May 29 2013 02:29 HTOMario wrote:
Personally I feel that the warp prism isn't the answer. It's just going to make an already large arsenal of all ins even larger. However I also don't know what would be the answer.
This is exactly my thoughts. Protoss is struggling because of the way the race is designed. Aside from Stalkers the micro potential in Protoss units is next to zero compared to Zerg and Terran.
Speed buff for Warp Prism is not going to change anything, because aside from being a dropship, Warp Prism works in a very different way than both Medivacs and Overlords. Medivacs is used to transport units from A to B, while also working as a healing unit, which means that more is better. Warp Prism is often times not used to transport units as much as it is used to warp in units into the enemy base. Speed Medivacs changed Terran because it made it easier to pick up your units and boost away from trouble. This is never going to happen for Protoss, because you are never going to have enough Warp Prisms to actually save enough units to make a difference. Furthermoe Warp Prisms, because of the warp mechanic, Warp Prisms are not forced to fly all the way back to your main base. Often times a Warp Prism is parked near the enemy base all the time, which means that the need for a speed buff for anything that is not a gimmick is almost non-existing.
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On May 29 2013 04:15 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 04:13 Mortal wrote:On May 29 2013 04:08 ZenithM wrote:
Not a bad buff.
I'll allow it. :D
Everything that increases movement speed is alright in my book. As long as we're not giving +2 range to the fucking queen. how about 20 range tempests? fuck it, let's make hellbats hit air. Well they had 22 range in beta D:
i thought it was 20, that was my attempt at a joke :[ goddamn, can't even poke fun correctly.
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It is for sure better than buffing the Oracle. We will see if its enough of a buff, but i am at least happy that they didnt buff health of immortals or made a similar a movish change.
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I think the idea is good, but I think we're going to get a quick robo/prism into 4 gate. One round of warpins to put in the prism, then drop off and start warping in the base. Couple that with timewarp on mothercore and it will be a pretty tough rush.
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On May 29 2013 04:10 TheBarcid wrote:
Buffing instead of nerfing is harder, but healthier in the long run. I'm not sure if the change is perfect but they are looking in the right direction.
I really hope this stops swarmhost zvp in its tracks. Or at least makes it more interesting to watch. Stephano's zvp games in wcs eu were painful reminders of WOL style play, powerful, but BORING.
Yeah that have nothing to do with the pathetic display of multitasking babyk showed during that series . The guy forgot his warp prism in a corner and didn't do anything with it ffs . -_-
HerO is the only top Protoss player who has been consistently using warp prism harrass in PvZ . Also in late game you can afford speed easily so buff or not buff it doesn't change a thing . In PvZ it's only a buff to 2 base all ins .
Don't know about PvT tough . Protoss players are having a hard time dealing with the speed medivac harrass, maybe this buff will help but I doubt so .
Wrong buff imho .
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GVFU7No.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2VGA4RP.png)
