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On May 18 2013 18:33 Grovbolle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 08:09 edwahn wrote:On May 18 2013 01:59 Greenei wrote:On May 17 2013 05:54 edwahn wrote:On May 17 2013 05:37 Greenei wrote:On May 17 2013 05:03 j4vz wrote:
Ive never seen anything good from Lucifron, even if he took out mvp 2-0 today..
I mean I feel like he is way overrated, everytime i watch him, im not impressed He is surely a little overrated in this list. But even if you mix the foreigner and korean pool mathematically, you can't really kick him out of the top20. I have him at rank 11 for example. 11th best player in the world??? Filter aligulac for HoTS, vs Koreans only for Lucifron and stare at a completely underwhelming 48% game wins. There a lot more than 11 GSL/Proleague players who have a higher win rate than that against even stronger opponents... In the interest of aligulac, I say the community votes for a criminally overrated/underrated player each, and host a BO9 showmatch. I would say Lucifron vs Zest - rating 1935 (best against P in the world) vs 1129 Even if Zest loses 5-3, there'd be a points transfer from Luci->Zest  Recent results are much more important then some 3 year old statistics. And Luci has a ridiculus winrate in the last 20 games or so. I definately think that he has Code S quality at the moment. Yep, I agree him being code S quality, but just not top 11 code S  If he gets to WCS season finals and gets spanked, he'll drop in points. If not, then I guess he belongs where he is
Win-win!
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Really don't understand how both this and the TL ratings work anymore, life still being #1 is at least forgivable (although in reality he's probably top 5 right now), but TL has some random foreigner I've never even heard of in the top spot. My list would go:
1. Bogus
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2. Soulkey
3. Life
4. SOS
5. Flash/Parting
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On May 18 2013 21:44 shadymmj wrote:
Really don't understand how both this and the TL ratings work anymore, life still being #1 is at least forgivable (although in reality he's probably top 5 right now), but TL has some random foreigner I've never even heard of in the top spot. My list would go:
1. Bogus
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2. Soulkey
3. Life
4. SOS
5. Flash/Parting
Most likely that is because your list is mainly based on GSL and SPL and nothing else.
Your list is just the best of the last 2 GSL's. Completely ignoring any other match played. While I do not necessarily disagree, yours is based off your own subjective analysis while ours is based on a focus to improve the prediction power of the sites underlying statistical model. You basically accept Bogus as the best in the world even though his vT isn't nearly as good as his other match-ups. (Losing to a player like Turn). While he might have been cheesed out or w/e (I don't watch much SPL) it was still a loss which affected his overall rating in the ranking.
Innovation is skyrocketing our rankings and is in general rising really fast. He will get top 5 soon enough.
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I guess if forGG beats Lucifron he will be the best player in the world.
You guys are doing an amazing work in gathering results but your ranking is just not right.
2 main issues :
1 : Stephano finishes first of his group in WCS EU Ro16 and loses 2 online tournaments he probably didnt care about and
loses 30 points while Kas wins an online showmatch, an online qualifier and loses in WCS EU but WIN 30 points.
I mean, Im not telling "stephano is so good he should be ranked higher than Kas" Im just saying that IF, in the same week, a player do one very big offline results and throw off 2 minors online tournaments, the calculus should prioritize the big offline event.
The thing is, sc2 is not a traditional sport, lets say a player like MC compete in a Zotac. He just doesnt care to win at all it would be 0.001 percent of the money he already won.Its only for practice. If you give credit to online tournaments I hope you give credit to ladder too (just to be consistent, ofc its also a bad idea).
The second one is more subjective :
2 : ForGG is placed 2nd, almost first, but he never won against any of the other members of the top 10. He had a few big wins but again, online, and if I remember correctly he was already ranked really high after these win (bo1 against Taeja and HerO). I feel like he gained all theses points by all killing semi-professional EU teams in the ATC qualifiers.
Same issue with Welmu he is 5th EU but on top tier tournament (DH, WCS EU) hes more like 30th...
I understand that high p values.. etc. etc. but why making a ranking if it says nothing at all ?
Soon the WCS ranking will be clearly established and actually will be way more accurate than this one.
That being said, its good to attempt what your doing and I hope you can improve !
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a bit off topic but why TL writers stop doing the Power Ranking, now that we have regular SPL and GSL going on.
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On May 19 2013 20:16 Arceus wrote:
a bit off topic but why TL writers stop doing the Power Ranking, now that we have regular SPL and GSL going on.
Why don't you ask the TL writers that? Since none of us are writers for TL
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On May 19 2013 20:12 v_lm wrote:
I guess if forGG beats Lucifron he will be the best player in the world.
You guys are doing an amazing work in gathering results but your ranking is just not right.
2 main issues :
1 : Stephano finishes first of his group in WCS EU Ro16 and loses 2 online tournaments he probably didnt care about and
loses 30 points while Kas wins an online showmatch, an online qualifier and loses in WCS EU but WIN 30 points.
2 : ForGG is placed 2nd, almost first, but he never won against any of the other members of the top 10. He had a few big wins but again, online, and if I remember correctly he was already ranked really high after these win (bo1 against Taeja and HerO). I feel like he gained all theses points by all killing semi-professional EU teams in the ATC qualifiers.
I understand that high p values.. etc. etc. but why making a ranking if it says nothing at all ?
Soon the WCS ranking will be clearly established and actually will be way more accurate than this one.
That being said, its good to attempt what your doing and I hope you can improve !
Stephano's Ro16 performance isn't in this list. It is part of the next list.
http://aligulac.com/players/10-Stephano/period/84/
Losing to Kas and Krass and BabyK and Arthur wasn't expected by Stephano, lowering his rating. We can't speculate in whether or not he "cared" about the match. The ranking measures performance. Period.
Kas played a lot, and won mostly. Thus giving him some points.
http://aligulac.com/players/41-Kas/period/84/
The ForGG issue is something we have known for quite some time. While we are still discussing what can be done, the best thing to stabilize the ratings is for him to lose some TvT, since his TvT is what is giving him such a high average. Who knows if LucifroN can beat him once they meet in WCS.
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Terran TLO fighting! Shoutout also to Random TLO <3
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"The ranking measures performance. Period"
Does tennis ranking take into account showmatchs ? Or the result of some pratice match ?
We can go further into it, since tennis ranking is based on results and not performance, but sc2 is not a traditional sport because :
+ Show Spoiler +you can actually play from home and therefore in tournaments with cashprize spreading on a 1 to 10 000 scale..
"We can't speculate in whether or not he "cared" about the match."
No but you can estimate more accurately his weekly level by selecting the WCS EU results over the online ones.
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If we are trying to find the best player in the world i think most online tournaments should be irrelevant and results should have no impact to the rankings.Only top-tier competition matters(Premier and Major tournaments from liquipedia).
What do you Aligulac guys think of that?
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I agree. Or at least implementing a "at stake" factor.
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A seperate ranking for only offline events would perhaps be cool, but i have faith that in one or two years this ranking will be very good. It's already decent, at least better than the TLPD ranking (imo!).
An "at stake" factor imo is no good idea, that's way too subjective as some people rate some tournaments higher than others.
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On May 19 2013 20:49 v_lm wrote:
I agree. Or at least implementing a "at stake" factor. Indeed, it would be nice if each match/game had a weight, related to the amount of money on the line for it. Sure, sometimes it's pride and glory, rather than money, but still money is a good measurable factor.
The thing is, some pro's participate in "smaller" tournaments with wilder strategies - that is, they experiment more there and don't mind losing as much. Surely, we cannot factor their losses in such tournaments equally as their results in bigger ones, where they put everything they have in.
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On May 19 2013 21:21 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2013 20:49 v_lm wrote:
I agree. Or at least implementing a "at stake" factor. Indeed, it would be nice if each match/game had a weight, related to the amount of money on the line for it. Sure, sometimes it's pride and glory, rather than money, but still money is a good measurable factor.
It's really not. Here's the thing, if you introduce a weighing system, it will be arbitrary at least to some extent, and it will produce "unfair" situations. For example, if you weigh by prize pool, do you seriously think a LAN like Assembly or The Gathering or ONOG or even some DreamHacks and IEMs are as hard overall as ProLeague or the Code A Qualifiers?
BB has long been considering a weighing system, the only thing is that no matter how fair it may seem, none is completely fair. To me, the best idea would be to weigh the tournament based on the average rating of the participating players. But even then, what if you end up with a very stacked Code S where upsets happen and many favourites fall to objectively lesser players, and the champion has an absurdly easy path to victory? (July 2011 comes to mind ) That would inflate his rating more than a bit...
So it's tricky...
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On May 19 2013 20:37 v_lm wrote:"The ranking measures performance. Period" Does tennis ranking take into account showmatchs ? Or the result of some pratice match ? We can go further into it, since tennis ranking is based on results and not performance, but sc2 is not a traditional sport because : + Show Spoiler +you can actually play from home and therefore in tournaments with cashprize spreading on a 1 to 10 000 scale.. . "We can't speculate in whether or not he "cared" about the match." No but you can estimate more accurately his weekly level by selecting the WCS EU results over the online ones.
TheBB is working on a system which takes the online/offline part of matches into consideration. However our ranking is merely a snapshot of the point distribution trying to maximize prediction power. So the ranking in itself is not the primary objective of the site. The prediction power is.
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Right now the system also creates unfair situations when giving games of western tournaments the same value as korean tournaments. When two koreans go vs each other on some of the western team leagues, and the game is played on the US, Koreans living in Europe/US have a significant advantage. Think of things like lag or being used to lag and possibly even motivation based on the fact that the korean living in EU/US doesn't play in GSL/PL/GSTL and will thus give more in these insignificant online things). I believe this may result in things like ForGG and Polt being ranked higher than they would be, thus making Aligulac show inaccurate standings in terms of player skill.
ForGG is not a very good player.
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On May 19 2013 21:41 a_flayer wrote:
Right now the system also creates unfair situations when giving games of western tournaments the same value as korean tournaments. When two koreans go vs each other on some of the western team leagues, and the game is played on the US, Koreans living in Europe/US have a significant advantage. Think of things like lag or being used to lag and possibly even motivation based on the fact that the korean living in EU/US doesn't play in GSL/PL/GSTL and will thus give more in these insignificant online things). I believe this may result in things like ForGG and Polt being ranked higher than they would be, thus making Aligulac show inaccurate standings in terms of player skill.
ForGG is not a very good player.
Polt doesn't play any team leagues and ForGG is in Europe, EU against KR on US is pretty equal in terms of lag for both players.
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On May 19 2013 21:41 a_flayer wrote:
ForGG is not a very good player.
So all you're trying to do is justify your position: that you personally don't believe fOrGG is a good player.
I think there's no meaningful discussion to be had with you then.
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To prevent farming maybe you could implement something like elo that once the rating difference is too high, player simply does not gain any rating from winning that match. I suppose that would put Forgg way aside, since he's farmed insignificant Europeans for quite a while!
Also some kind of weight factor for the matches/tournaments might help as well, as suggested before.
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On May 19 2013 21:41 a_flayer wrote:
Right now the system also creates unfair situations when giving games of western tournaments the same value as korean tournaments. When two koreans go vs each other on some of the western team leagues, and the game is played on the US, Koreans living in Europe/US have a significant advantage. Think of things like lag or being used to lag and possibly even motivation based on the fact that the korean living in EU/US doesn't play in GSL/PL/GSTL and will thus give more in these insignificant online things). I believe this may result in things like ForGG and Polt being ranked higher than they would be, thus making Aligulac show inaccurate standings in terms of player skill.
ForGG is not a very good player.
Why does Lucifron say that ForGG is the best player in europe right now, taking MVP and MC into account as well?
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EPT
TLO
Naniwa
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