On May 19 2013 21:41 a_flayer wrote: Right now the system also creates unfair situations when giving games of western tournaments the same value as korean tournaments. When two koreans go vs each other on some of the western team leagues, and the game is played on the US, Koreans living in Europe/US have a significant advantage. Think of things like lag or being used to lag and possibly even motivation based on the fact that the korean living in EU/US doesn't play in GSL/PL/GSTL and will thus give more in these insignificant online things). I believe this may result in things like ForGG and Polt being ranked higher than they would be, thus making Aligulac show inaccurate standings in terms of player skill.
ForGG is not a very good player.
Why does Lucifron say that ForGG is the best player in europe right now, taking MVP and MC into account as well?
You're trying to use logic to argue with an irrational anti-fan. :/
He makes the rest of us anti fans look bad :p
Or maybe you all focus on my single last line and completely ignore the fact that ForGG will always be more motivated to do well in these rather meaningless small online tournaments where Koreans playing in GSL/SPL will simply put in less effort when they face him because their focus is on GSL/SPL. I watched the games ForGG played in his WCS group and I was not impressed. Sloppy multitasking, micro and macro. Badly executed attacks. The list goes on. He lost vs TLO, for crying out loud.
The way this thing comes up with its value for players simply does not create a flawless overview of "top" players. I don't see how this can be disputed. Although I suppose nobody is claiming that it does (I hope). Still, it bothers me to see people flocking around something like this and someone should throw in some counterweight.
On May 19 2013 21:41 a_flayer wrote: Right now the system also creates unfair situations when giving games of western tournaments the same value as korean tournaments. When two koreans go vs each other on some of the western team leagues, and the game is played on the US, Koreans living in Europe/US have a significant advantage. Think of things like lag or being used to lag and possibly even motivation based on the fact that the korean living in EU/US doesn't play in GSL/PL/GSTL and will thus give more in these insignificant online things). I believe this may result in things like ForGG and Polt being ranked higher than they would be, thus making Aligulac show inaccurate standings in terms of player skill.
ForGG is not a very good player.
Why does Lucifron say that ForGG is the best player in europe right now, taking MVP and MC into account as well?
You're trying to use logic to argue with an irrational anti-fan. :/
He makes the rest of us anti fans look bad :p
Or maybe you all focus on my single last line and completely ignore the fact that ForGG will always be more motivated to do well in these rather meaningless small online tournaments where Koreans playing in GSL/SPL will simply put in less effort when they face him because their focus is on GSL/SPL. I watched the games ForGG played in his WCS group and I was not impressed. Sloppy multitasking, micro and macro. Badly executed attacks. The list goes on. He lost vs TLO, for crying out loud.
The way this thing comes up with its value for players simply does not create a flawless overview of "top" players. I don't see how this can be disputed. Although I suppose nobody is claiming that it does (I hope). Still, it bothers me to see people flocking around something like this and someone should throw in some counterweight.
I'm not quite sure why ForGG is motivated to do well in rather meaningless online tourneys, do you actually think pro players gives a shit about this rating?
Our rating has had a huge shock, with both HotS and Kespa transition, it will take at least half a year before enough points have been transferred to the entire new "Kespa scene" before it is somewhat accurate. Which I have explained in prior threads http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408365¤tpage=3#44 Yet we still do these write ups to keep showing the results we can show and the uses for the site. Some enjoy it, some don't.
Also, when you just state "ForGG is not a very good player" without any real justification, I think it makes you sound like a hater. Whether or not he is rated too high with us, he is in WCS EU Ro8 and has delivered pretty good results.
After reading lot of comment in the Aligulac threads and speacilly the developers answers, I'm convinced that the surelly huuuge effort on the rating, is being slowly ruined with pure pride.
(Innovation is the best by far comment) "Most likely that is because your list is mainly based on GSL and SPL and nothing else. Your list is just the best of the last 2 GSL's"
Really? What else a Sc2 pro need to be the best? Raping in GSL and teamkillling in SPL should be enough. Enough for sure to be top 10. This rating is clearly and sadly flawed. It need to be adjusted, but to adjust something, devs first need to realize/admit that something is wrong.
I am shocked at how many people are saying the system is flawed because x player is clearly better than y. While many of these arguments may be true, this is not the effect of the system being wrong; it's simply this way because there is not enough inter-mingling between discrete scenes.
If the devs made any true mistakes, it's the assumption that putting everyone in a single environment would work out fine due to points transfers from inter-scene events.
I personally think (and I may be mathmatically wrong!) that there aren't enough international events to transfer points fast enough to adjust for inflation for scenes like EU where there are so many games/players.
Actually, what does Aligulac think about this? Is the occasional dreamhack/MLG/season finals enough to appropriately transfer points? The post regarding points transfer from Koreans to foreigners being on a general decline seemed to be optimistic about this, but I'm just not sure that this is true mainly due to Kespa players not being able to compete in most international leagues. Sure, they'll leech some off the eSF players who attend, but I feel like it would be somewhat diluted by this point.
On May 22 2013 10:15 Belha wrote: After reading lot of comment in the Aligulac threads and speacilly the developers answers, I'm convinced that the surelly huuuge effort on the rating, is being slowly ruined with pure pride.
(Innovation is the best by far comment) "Most likely that is because your list is mainly based on GSL and SPL and nothing else. Your list is just the best of the last 2 GSL's"
Really? What else a Sc2 pro need to be the best? Raping in GSL and teamkillling in SPL should be enough. Enough for sure to be top 10. This rating is clearly and sadly flawed. It need to be adjusted, but to adjust something, devs first need to realize/admit that something is wrong.
Let's be clear here : There is only 2 dev posting here, namely Conti and TheBB (I don't put myself in that category since I never got the time to push my commits). The remaining "staff" member posting here is Grovbolle who does most of the PR stuff for TheBB.
The rest of us are neither developers nor any kind of official representation for the website. We are, contrary to your beliefs, entitled to our opinions and to the relative liberty to say it here or elsewhere. Using our opinions to discredit the work of others is not a good way to propose criticism.
That being said, if you do have a proposition, a suggestion or any kind of advice that you could gave us, we are more than happy to listen.
On May 22 2013 10:15 Belha wrote: After reading lot of comment in the Aligulac threads and speacilly the developers answers, I'm convinced that the surelly huuuge effort on the rating, is being slowly ruined with pure pride.
(Innovation is the best by far comment) "Most likely that is because your list is mainly based on GSL and SPL and nothing else. Your list is just the best of the last 2 GSL's"
Really? What else a Sc2 pro need to be the best? Raping in GSL and teamkillling in SPL should be enough. Enough for sure to be top 10. This rating is clearly and sadly flawed. It need to be adjusted, but to adjust something, devs first need to realize/admit that something is wrong.
If you read what I post, I agree multiple times that INnoVation most likely is the best player in the world. If I had to bet on someone to win GSL, I would choose him. I guess I phrased myself pretty bad with the bolded part, what I meant was that we have mainly seen the strength of INnoVation's TvZ, while we haven't seen him convincingly winning a lot in the other two match-up, as soon as he actually plays and beats good T's and P's, his rating will adjust. Also, and this is a very general thing, the entirety of the Kespa players are underrated, and will be so for at least half a year or more until there has been an adequate transfer of points from both EU, NA and ESF to the "kespa pool" which is mainly distributed among Kespa teams through SPL.
Gateway players/teams are players and teams that play in multiple pools and thus helps this transfer by "stealing" points from one pool to another: Axiom/Acer -> Points transfer through Acer Teamstory Cup, GSTL and GSL. Also WCS AM (When there were weaker overrated AM players) EG-TL -> ATC, SPL, Other teamleagues. Flash, Rain, PartinG, Soulkey, INnoVation basically any Kespa pro who plays GSL and wins points there and then loses them again in the "kespa pool".
I am pondering doing a larger more graphical write-up on this to explain it better, but for now, we are proud of what we have done, but we can all agree that the current rating does not adequately display the true skill of most (Kespa) players. We are still in a transition period until we have had more points transfer. The biggest reason for this being so slow is that Kespa players only plays proleague (no point transfer from other pools unless beating EG-TL, only distribution) and GSL (some points transferred).
I hope that made it a bit clearer, and I am sorry if I have come off as somewhat defensive. Criticism is always appreciated, as long as it is presented in a constructive manner, but expect at least 6 months before the pools of points are somewhat adequately distributed.
Also: INnoVation is currently number 7, he was 11th when this thread was originally posted. If not for the somewhat inflated rating of ForGG, Polt and LucifroN he would be number 4. I think that is reasonable, especially considering that anyone within 250 points of eachother cannot be considered significantly weaker than the other.
On May 22 2013 10:39 edwahn wrote: I am shocked at how many people are saying the system is flawed because x player is clearly better than y. While many of these arguments may be true, this is not the effect of the system being wrong; it's simply this way because there is not enough inter-mingling between discrete scenes.
If the devs made any true mistakes, it's the assumption that putting everyone in a single environment would work out fine due to points transfers from inter-scene events.
I personally think (and I may be mathmatically wrong!) that there aren't enough international events to transfer points fast enough to adjust for inflation for scenes like EU where there are so many games/players.
Actually, what does Aligulac think about this? Is the occasional dreamhack/MLG/season finals enough to appropriately transfer points? The post regarding points transfer from Koreans to foreigners being on a general decline seemed to be optimistic about this, but I'm just not sure that this is true mainly due to Kespa players not being able to compete in most international leagues. Sure, they'll leech some off the eSF players who attend, but I feel like it would be somewhat diluted by this point.
It is an issue that there are a lot more "semi-pros" that enter and leave the EU/AM scene once they have lost some points. In KR we only get results from GSL, OSL, SPL and the occasional Code A qualifier. So there is close to no inflation. Again, something I ponder doing a write-up on as soon as my exams are done.
On May 22 2013 10:15 Belha wrote: After reading lot of comment in the Aligulac threads and speacilly the developers answers, I'm convinced that the surelly huuuge effort on the rating, is being slowly ruined with pure pride.
(Innovation is the best by far comment) "Most likely that is because your list is mainly based on GSL and SPL and nothing else. Your list is just the best of the last 2 GSL's"
Really? What else a Sc2 pro need to be the best? Raping in GSL and teamkillling in SPL should be enough. Enough for sure to be top 10. This rating is clearly and sadly flawed. It need to be adjusted, but to adjust something, devs first need to realize/admit that something is wrong.
The other guys have accurate answers to your issues, but I'd like to try summarizing them a bit.
First of all, hell yes I'm proud as fuck.
Secondly, Otolia is right. The only people in this thread who are regular developers are me and Conti, and Conti doesn't even work with the ratings. That's just me. So a lot of what you take as developer comments are from other people associated with the project who have a decent but not perfect understanding of it.
Third. I disagree. Primarily because of scene heterogeneity the number of people who are able to "rape" in GSL and "kill" in SPL are few indeed. There are many more players who can do one but not both. There is a not insignificant list of players who have "raped" in the GSL only to fall out very quickly. Seed and Jjakji come to mind. Were they ever the best?
I can assure you that "raping" in the GSL and "killing" in the SPL will make Innovation #1 on Aligulac. He just has to be at it for a bit longer than he has. In fact he's only been "raping" in this season. Last season he famously failed to rape Symbol in the Ro16. This season he's only made it one round further so far. The evidence here is flimsy. In SPL, prior to his last all-kill Innovation had a three game loss streak (and another allkill before that).
All in all he has a winrate of slightly less than 2/3 over this period, which means he's more or less steadily performing at 300 or so points higher than his opponents. If he keeps it up his rating should reflect that in a few months time.
I claim that you and a lot of other people place undue importance on a select few events and extreme performances.
(And, anyway, he is top 10 right now.)
Fourth. Devs (which by previous argument, means me) do admit that something is wrong. Never have I said otherwise. But if you think the value in this tool lies solely in a list then you are vastly mistaken. Yes, I would love it if the rating list were an accurate representation of who is the very best, but to call it flawed would be to ignore all the other things it's good at. So long as you aren't comparing across scenes, it should be just fine.
Hate to be so blunt, but what is the point of this ranking? It is so far from reality that it seems to be completely useless. Most people here could make up a ranking off the top of their heads that would have more predictive power than this. Is this just an exercise in statistical masturbation?
On May 22 2013 10:15 Belha wrote: After reading lot of comment in the Aligulac threads and speacilly the developers answers, I'm convinced that the surelly huuuge effort on the rating, is being slowly ruined with pure pride.
(Innovation is the best by far comment) "Most likely that is because your list is mainly based on GSL and SPL and nothing else. Your list is just the best of the last 2 GSL's"
Really? What else a Sc2 pro need to be the best? Raping in GSL and teamkillling in SPL should be enough. Enough for sure to be top 10. This rating is clearly and sadly flawed. It need to be adjusted, but to adjust something, devs first need to realize/admit that something is wrong.
I claim that you and a lot of other people place undue importance on a select few events and extreme performances.
And that is one of the main problems of the system. You don't place enough importance on certain events and give too much importance to lesser tournaments. I think developer pride is indeed one of the main reasons why the system is slow to improve or unwilling to improve.
The system as it stands is an inaccurate rating system. However, since it's one of the few or only statistical system out there, not counting tl's elo which is also flawed people give more value and credit to the system than it deserves. There's just a lack of system rankings out there, so people flock to one of the only ones out there even if it's flawed.
On May 24 2013 14:55 iamho wrote: Hate to be so blunt, but what is the point of this ranking? It is so far from reality that it seems to be completely useless. Most people here could make up a ranking off the top of their heads that would have more predictive power than this. Is this just an exercise in statistical masturbation?
Yet it would be #2 in liquibets on single competitions. So most people = 1-2 persons.
On May 24 2013 14:55 iamho wrote: Hate to be so blunt, but what is the point of this ranking? It is so far from reality that it seems to be completely useless. Most people here could make up a ranking off the top of their heads that would have more predictive power than this. Is this just an exercise in statistical masturbation?
Yet it would be #2 in liquibets on single competitions. So most people = 1-2 persons.
People have always gotten top 10 in Liquibet by voting purely on ELO, I fail to see how this is any more impressive. I would be more impressed to see an FPL team constructed with this ranking do well, since people actually take that seriously.
On May 22 2013 10:15 Belha wrote: After reading lot of comment in the Aligulac threads and speacilly the developers answers, I'm convinced that the surelly huuuge effort on the rating, is being slowly ruined with pure pride.
(Innovation is the best by far comment) "Most likely that is because your list is mainly based on GSL and SPL and nothing else. Your list is just the best of the last 2 GSL's"
Really? What else a Sc2 pro need to be the best? Raping in GSL and teamkillling in SPL should be enough. Enough for sure to be top 10. This rating is clearly and sadly flawed. It need to be adjusted, but to adjust something, devs first need to realize/admit that something is wrong.
I claim that you and a lot of other people place undue importance on a select few events and extreme performances.
And that is one of the main problems of the system. You don't place enough importance on certain events and give too much importance to lesser tournaments. I think developer pride is indeed one of the main reasons why the system is slow to improve or unwilling to improve.
The system as it stands is an inaccurate rating system. However, since it's one of the few or only statistical system out there, not counting tl's elo which is also flawed people give more value and credit to the system than it deserves. There's just a lack of system rankings out there, so people flock to one of the only ones out there even if it's flawed.
lol what.
I'm sorry, but that is just funny...it's developer pride...lol...really?
I'm laughing too hard to post how ridiculous that is
On May 24 2013 14:55 iamho wrote: Hate to be so blunt, but what is the point of this ranking? It is so far from reality that it seems to be completely useless. Most people here could make up a ranking off the top of their heads that would have more predictive power than this. Is this just an exercise in statistical masturbation?
Yet it would be #2 in liquibets on single competitions. So most people = 1-2 persons.
People have always gotten top 10 in Liquibet by voting purely on ELO, I fail to see how this is any more impressive. I would be more impressed to see an FPL team constructed with this ranking do well, since people actually take that seriously.
I would speculate that the devs would probably consider "equally impressive to ELO, the most respected ranking algorithm in the history of mankind" to be something of a compliment.
On May 22 2013 10:15 Belha wrote: After reading lot of comment in the Aligulac threads and speacilly the developers answers, I'm convinced that the surelly huuuge effort on the rating, is being slowly ruined with pure pride.
(Innovation is the best by far comment) "Most likely that is because your list is mainly based on GSL and SPL and nothing else. Your list is just the best of the last 2 GSL's"
Really? What else a Sc2 pro need to be the best? Raping in GSL and teamkillling in SPL should be enough. Enough for sure to be top 10. This rating is clearly and sadly flawed. It need to be adjusted, but to adjust something, devs first need to realize/admit that something is wrong.
I claim that you and a lot of other people place undue importance on a select few events and extreme performances.
I think developer pride is indeed one of the main reasons why the system is slow to improve or unwilling to improve.
Less like developer pride and more like developer trying-to-finish-my-dissertation-so-I-don't-have-time-for-this-shit.
All you naysayers are free to submit pull requests by the way. Let me know and I'll hook you up with a full DB dump.
On May 24 2013 14:55 iamho wrote: Hate to be so blunt, but what is the point of this ranking? It is so far from reality that it seems to be completely useless. Most people here could make up a ranking off the top of their heads that would have more predictive power than this. Is this just an exercise in statistical masturbation?
Yet it would be #2 in liquibets on single competitions. So most people = 1-2 persons.
People have always gotten top 10 in Liquibet by voting purely on ELO, I fail to see how this is any more impressive. I would be more impressed to see an FPL team constructed with this ranking do well, since people actually take that seriously.
I would speculate that the devs would probably consider "equally impressive to ELO, the most respected ranking algorithm in the history of mankind" to be something of a compliment.
EPT
