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On April 23 2013 12:08 GhostBusters wrote:
Is it just me, or do other zergs enjoy zvz right now? i way prefer this style of play compared to ling/bane. I enjoy using mutas, i feel like the better player wins most of the time, and on a side note personally it kinda feels like bw zvz but better.
The problem with muta v muta is that if both players play flawlessly, whoever wins the battle is purely based on luck.
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On April 23 2013 12:08 GhostBusters wrote:
Is it just me, or do other zergs enjoy zvz right now? i way prefer this style of play compared to ling/bane. I enjoy using mutas, i feel like the better player wins most of the time, and on a side note personally it kinda feels like bw zvz but better.
the early game is still ling/bane and the mid game/beyond was roach/infestor prior to this so i'm not really sure why you're saying you prefer this style of play compared to ling/bane. :o
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On April 23 2013 12:01 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 11:59 nGBeast wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. Storm? Hydras? Marines? Vikings? Corrupters (microed)? How exactly do you micro corruptors in a way that will make them trade even remotely cost efficiently vs Voids Rays?
Upgrades and micro back until Void Ray charge is gone? I don't understand how hard that is to do? Do you honestly think you can't trade efficently with void rays that cost more in resources?
Also quality PM from Msr
Original Message From Msr:
You have no idea how to play this game, please do not post a unit that is hard countered as a counter, thanks.
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On April 23 2013 12:08 GhostBusters wrote:
Is it just me, or do other zergs enjoy zvz right now? i way prefer this style of play compared to ling/bane. I enjoy using mutas, i feel like the better player wins most of the time, and on a side note personally it kinda feels like bw zvz but better.
I only enjoy zvp right now personally zvz and zvt are the same. Mines are pain and zvz is just zvz.
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I like the ZvZ changes. We went from only roach hydra to only mutas with the same openings. More variety would be appreciated. Burrow change looks fine. How good of a buff this will be will be decided by how well people can defend against it. As people are already getting more detection, this shouldn't be an issue. The oracle change is odd. One or two can already destroy a mineral line. Now Blizzard wants them to be able to get away easier? I guess only time will tell.
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On April 23 2013 12:10 nGBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 12:01 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 nGBeast wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. Storm? Hydras? Marines? Vikings? Corrupters (microed)? How exactly do you micro corruptors in a way that will make them trade even remotely cost efficiently vs Voids Rays? Upgrades and micro back until Void Ray charge is gone? I don't understand how hard that is to do? Do you honestly think you can't trade efficently with void rays that cost more in resources? Also quality PM from Msr Show nested quote +Original Message From Msr:
You have no idea how to play this game, please do not post a unit that is hard countered as a counter, thanks.
All the protoss has to do to completely shut that down is wait until the zerg commits. If the zerg tries to back off then the zerg has already taken quite a bit of damage while the protoss only has shield damage which will regenerate much faster than the corruptors health will. Not to mention that the voidrays will chase the corruptors a bit while still attacking giving them extra free hits on the corruptors.
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On April 23 2013 12:08 GhostBusters wrote:
Is it just me, or do other zergs enjoy zvz right now? i way prefer this style of play compared to ling/bane. I enjoy using mutas, i feel like the better player wins most of the time, and on a side note personally it kinda feels like bw zvz but better.
I know that it made me switch to 90% Terran these days. And from my games I know that I'm by far not the only one who either cheeses every ZvZ or just leaves at the start.
Also ling/bling is not what happens when massing mutas to eternity isn't viable anymore. In WoL it was Roach/Hydra/Infestor, but with the weaker Infestors, Swarm Hosts in the picture, buffed Ultralisks and Vipers we really can't know what we would get.
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On April 23 2013 09:39 Noro wrote:
Really surprised at no Hellbat nerf... And confused at the Oracle buff. Happy about the ZvZ changes though, that match up is so painful to watch right now.
Hellbats definitely need to be looked at in some fashion. Damage or HP, not sure which is the bigger issue. Oracles are still way way too fragile to generally be worth investing in, so I would like some sort of speed boost to allow people with the APM to keep them alive while trying to harass/macro.
I am alllllllll for ZvZ changes because it is seriously the worst matchup to watch right now. Spore crawlers seem to be the way to go as you can tweak those pretty much endlessly and not affect the other matchups.
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The Oracle speed increase gives Protoss a legit harass instead of having to proxy that stargate. Since the stargate will built safely in the Protoss base this allows the player to continue to use that structure throughout the game instead of the one time use, this also means the building will be easier to scout as well. If you proxy this speedier Oracle wont the unit have hardly any energy arriving at the opponents base? I really like this idea and can see no negatives for this propsed change.
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On April 23 2013 12:10 nGBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 12:01 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 nGBeast wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. Storm? Hydras? Marines? Vikings? Corrupters (microed)? How exactly do you micro corruptors in a way that will make them trade even remotely cost efficiently vs Voids Rays? Upgrades and micro back until Void Ray charge is gone? I don't understand how hard that is to do? Do you honestly think you can't trade efficently with void rays that cost more in resources? Also quality PM from Msr Show nested quote +Original Message From Msr:
You have no idea how to play this game, please do not post a unit that is hard countered as a counter, thanks.
20 VR beats 30 corruptors (same supply, near equal cost) by a large margin (first run had 9 VR left) given equal upgrades for both sides. Without the charge. And the odds of the zerg having 3/3 air when protoss has 3/3 air is SLIM.
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Oh sweet, even more incentive for Protoss to proxy stargate every single PvT.
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Could always change VR to be +massive and +mechanical instead of +armored. I think that would keep things the same for other matchups.
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oracles are easy as hell to counter, i dunno what you guys are crying about
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On April 23 2013 12:16 neversleeping wrote:
Oh sweet, even more incentive for Protoss to proxy stargate every single PvT.
If there were other ways to win....
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On April 23 2013 12:06 Msr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 11:59 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. The Wood League warriors are the first reveal themselves in these threads... Ironic because I am GM on every server, and Ive yet to find a way to kill a voidray army. Hydras and corrupters both get completely destroyed by voidrays. Aoe is the biggest issue with hydras being terrible vs them, and queen-spores is too immobile. The only way I've found to beat a voidray army that is not pure static defense tempest turtle, is to damage their economy so bad that multiple remaxes eventually overpower the protoss. If other skilled zergs have an army composition I am not using correctly please feel free to show me.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408919 ?
VR are stupid agaisnt armoured units, but I don't really see how mass vr is OP in ZvP. Hydras do decently agaisnt vr, fongal helps a lot if they are staked, swarmhost can push back templars and collosus, and if you don't kill the army with that, you can kill it with the remax...
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Northern Ireland26467 Posts
So much fucking bitching here, and one sentence posts with no explanations given as to why you hold particular views.
Why even bother calling this a discussion thread? May as well just rename it '[Vent/Rant] Blizzard's Potential Balance Test Map Changes'
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Big fan of the proposed spore change, good idea imo!
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the changes aren't implemented yet, hold the pitchforks
seems fine to me, oracle speed might be an issue though
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widowmine bio is still too strong against Z as demonstrated by recent WCS. Coupled with medivac speed/hellbats etc, I just still feel that zerg have no weapons in the early game still, and with mines and MSC it feels that its hard to attack before lair tech as zerg which to me feels imba.
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EPT
