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On May 02 2013 05:19 Fig wrote:
I think changing spore crawlers would not be a good change. It might work to hold off mutas in ZvZ, but making these static defenses super strong against bio so they become the only way to deal with mutas is silly. And similarly in PvZ, the only way to actually deal with mass mutas is mass Phoenixes. Nothing else is viable right now. The new mutas pigeonhole the opponent into a single response in both of these matchups and that should be a wakeup call that they are not good for the game as they are now.
Mass Marines pidgeonholes you into banelings, mass immortals pidgeonholes you into mutalisks/broodlords, mass zealot allins pidgeonhole you into roaches... It's a strategy game. If anything was easily defendable with *whatever*, the strategy part would be quite boring.
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On May 02 2013 05:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 05:19 Fig wrote:
I think changing spore crawlers would not be a good change. It might work to hold off mutas in ZvZ, but making these static defenses super strong against bio so they become the only way to deal with mutas is silly. And similarly in PvZ, the only way to actually deal with mass mutas is mass Phoenixes. Nothing else is viable right now. The new mutas pigeonhole the opponent into a single response in both of these matchups and that should be a wakeup call that they are not good for the game as they are now. Mass Marines pidgeonholes you into banelings, mass immortals pidgeonholes you into mutalisks/broodlords, mass zealot allins pidgeonhole you into roaches... It's a strategy game. If anything was easily defendable with *whatever*, the strategy part would be quite boring.
Mass marines does not force banes... fungal works just as well, and using both together works even better. Mass immortals are defeated by muta/broods/swarmhosts/lings/hydras. Mass zealot allins don't pigeonhole you into MASS roaches, just some to stabilize.
Yes it is a strategy game. I did not say to make everything viable on defense against anything else either... you must have misread. I was trying to get across the idea that only having one possibility for stopping a such a simple lategame strategy based around one unit like mass muta, is bad for the game.
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On May 02 2013 05:48 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 05:34 Big J wrote:On May 02 2013 05:19 Fig wrote:
I think changing spore crawlers would not be a good change. It might work to hold off mutas in ZvZ, but making these static defenses super strong against bio so they become the only way to deal with mutas is silly. And similarly in PvZ, the only way to actually deal with mass mutas is mass Phoenixes. Nothing else is viable right now. The new mutas pigeonhole the opponent into a single response in both of these matchups and that should be a wakeup call that they are not good for the game as they are now. Mass Marines pidgeonholes you into banelings, mass immortals pidgeonholes you into mutalisks/broodlords, mass zealot allins pidgeonhole you into roaches... It's a strategy game. If anything was easily defendable with *whatever*, the strategy part would be quite boring. Mass marines does not force banes... fungal works just as well, and using both together works even better. Mass immortals are defeated by muta/broods/swarmhosts/lings/hydras. Mass zealot allins don't pigeonhole you into MASS roaches, just some to stabilize. Yes it is a strategy game. I did not say to make everything viable on defense against anything else either... you must have misread. I was trying to get across the idea that only having one possibility for stopping a such a simple lategame strategy based around one unit like mass muta, is bad for the game.
First off, mass muta is not a late game strategy. If given bountiful reserves to build the perfect army (late-game). Protoss has plenty of options to deal with mass muta styles, just like has always been the case. Blink Stalkers already win 1:1 and upgrades only tilt this further in the stalkers' favor. Archons are a huge counter to mutalisks, as even one shot can do literally thousands of damage in splash. Storm is just as good as archon splash if not better. Cannons offer a cheap base defense to deter mutas long enough for the real army to show up, and of course, the phoenix has the muta beat in literally every single stat other than being able to shoot ground targets, and with graviton they're not too bad at that either.
And besides there is also the argument that I brought up when the phoenix range upgrade was introduced: Why is it ok for the stalker to offer such flexibility to the protoss army, but zerg having a higher tier unit that is worse at straight up fighting and has clear counters is imba and deserves a nerf?
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On May 02 2013 07:19 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 05:48 Fig wrote:On May 02 2013 05:34 Big J wrote:On May 02 2013 05:19 Fig wrote:
I think changing spore crawlers would not be a good change. It might work to hold off mutas in ZvZ, but making these static defenses super strong against bio so they become the only way to deal with mutas is silly. And similarly in PvZ, the only way to actually deal with mass mutas is mass Phoenixes. Nothing else is viable right now. The new mutas pigeonhole the opponent into a single response in both of these matchups and that should be a wakeup call that they are not good for the game as they are now. Mass Marines pidgeonholes you into banelings, mass immortals pidgeonholes you into mutalisks/broodlords, mass zealot allins pidgeonhole you into roaches... It's a strategy game. If anything was easily defendable with *whatever*, the strategy part would be quite boring. Mass marines does not force banes... fungal works just as well, and using both together works even better. Mass immortals are defeated by muta/broods/swarmhosts/lings/hydras. Mass zealot allins don't pigeonhole you into MASS roaches, just some to stabilize. Yes it is a strategy game. I did not say to make everything viable on defense against anything else either... you must have misread. I was trying to get across the idea that only having one possibility for stopping a such a simple lategame strategy based around one unit like mass muta, is bad for the game. First off, mass muta is not a late game strategy. If given bountiful reserves to build the perfect army (late-game). Protoss has plenty of options to deal with mass muta styles, just like has always been the case. Blink Stalkers already win 1:1 and upgrades only tilt this further in the stalkers' favor. Archons are a huge counter to mutalisks, as even one shot can do literally thousands of damage in splash. Storm is just as good as archon splash if not better. Cannons offer a cheap base defense to deter mutas long enough for the real army to show up, and of course, the phoenix has the muta beat in literally every single stat other than being able to shoot ground targets, and with graviton they're not too bad at that either. And besides there is also the argument that I brought up when the phoenix range upgrade was introduced: Why is it ok for the stalker to offer such flexibility to the protoss army, but zerg having a higher tier unit that is worse at straight up fighting and has clear counters is imba and deserves a nerf?
Maybe we are talking about different things. I am referring to pro games where the zerg tech switches quickly to huge amounts of mutas in the late game. Mass blink stalkers do not win 1:1 vs mass mutas, simply because mutas can clump because they are air units, allowing them all to attack at once. The only way to get all the stalkers attacking at once is to be in a huge open area without cliffs or chokes. And the muta player will never allow the toss to engage them like that. We have seen that good control prevents archons from touching mutas, especially now that they are faster. And with the new regen, any storm that does clip them as they fly by can be healed in a short time. Cannons are killed off almost immediately when dealing with 40+ mutas, so it's usually better to warp in zealots to harass zerg bases, since the mutas are off harassing yours.
I agree about the phoenix, which was my point. It definitely beats mutas cost effectively, but mass producing phoenixes (often proactively) seems to be the only way to take out the new mutas with their extra speed and regen. I know protosses used to win against this in WoL with other combinations of units, but I have yet to see someone defeat this counterattacking mass muta style in HotS without several stargates constantly pumping phoenixes.
I didn't say that mutas should just be nerfed straight up. But don't you think it's silly to see 40+ mutas flying around as an actual strategy at the highest level? Especially since the only thing keeping it from being 40 in ZvZ is the chance of being hit by a fungal.
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Is watching 40 blink stalkers stroll around silly?
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On May 02 2013 10:24 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 07:19 Jermstuddog wrote:On May 02 2013 05:48 Fig wrote:On May 02 2013 05:34 Big J wrote:On May 02 2013 05:19 Fig wrote:
I think changing spore crawlers would not be a good change. It might work to hold off mutas in ZvZ, but making these static defenses super strong against bio so they become the only way to deal with mutas is silly. And similarly in PvZ, the only way to actually deal with mass mutas is mass Phoenixes. Nothing else is viable right now. The new mutas pigeonhole the opponent into a single response in both of these matchups and that should be a wakeup call that they are not good for the game as they are now. Mass Marines pidgeonholes you into banelings, mass immortals pidgeonholes you into mutalisks/broodlords, mass zealot allins pidgeonhole you into roaches... It's a strategy game. If anything was easily defendable with *whatever*, the strategy part would be quite boring. Mass marines does not force banes... fungal works just as well, and using both together works even better. Mass immortals are defeated by muta/broods/swarmhosts/lings/hydras. Mass zealot allins don't pigeonhole you into MASS roaches, just some to stabilize. Yes it is a strategy game. I did not say to make everything viable on defense against anything else either... you must have misread. I was trying to get across the idea that only having one possibility for stopping a such a simple lategame strategy based around one unit like mass muta, is bad for the game. First off, mass muta is not a late game strategy. If given bountiful reserves to build the perfect army (late-game). Protoss has plenty of options to deal with mass muta styles, just like has always been the case. Blink Stalkers already win 1:1 and upgrades only tilt this further in the stalkers' favor. Archons are a huge counter to mutalisks, as even one shot can do literally thousands of damage in splash. Storm is just as good as archon splash if not better. Cannons offer a cheap base defense to deter mutas long enough for the real army to show up, and of course, the phoenix has the muta beat in literally every single stat other than being able to shoot ground targets, and with graviton they're not too bad at that either. And besides there is also the argument that I brought up when the phoenix range upgrade was introduced: Why is it ok for the stalker to offer such flexibility to the protoss army, but zerg having a higher tier unit that is worse at straight up fighting and has clear counters is imba and deserves a nerf? Maybe we are talking about different things. I am referring to pro games where the zerg tech switches quickly to huge amounts of mutas in the late game. Mass blink stalkers do not win 1:1 vs mass mutas, simply because mutas can clump because they are air units, allowing them all to attack at once. The only way to get all the stalkers attacking at once is to be in a huge open area without cliffs or chokes. And the muta player will never allow the toss to engage them like that. We have seen that good control prevents archons from touching mutas, especially now that they are faster. And with the new regen, any storm that does clip them as they fly by can be healed in a short time. Cannons are killed off almost immediately when dealing with 40+ mutas, so it's usually better to warp in zealots to harass zerg bases, since the mutas are off harassing yours. I agree about the phoenix, which was my point. It definitely beats mutas cost effectively, but mass producing phoenixes (often proactively) seems to be the only way to take out the new mutas with their extra speed and regen. I know protosses used to win against this in WoL with other combinations of units, but I have yet to see someone defeat this counterattacking mass muta style in HotS without several stargates constantly pumping phoenixes. I didn't say that mutas should just be nerfed straight up. But don't you think it's silly to see 40+ mutas flying around as an actual strategy at the highest level? Especially since the only thing keeping it from being 40 in ZvZ is the chance of being hit by a fungal.
I can justify all day why zealot immortal is imba, but at the end of the day, you just have to outplay your opponent. Protoss has MANY options to deal with mutalisks, not just on paper, but in plenty of actual played games as well. Yes, a muta techswitch is strong, but it is usually preferred by Zerg taking a sizeable advantage, breaking even in the next fight despite this advantage, and restocking with a unit his opponent just isn't ready to deal with. That's one of the major functions of the race as a whole.
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There's nothing wrong with zvz imo. Muta/ling wars are fine, they aren't any more annoying to play than other zvz strats, and they are very entertaining to watch I think. Always makes for fast paced games. Other two changes I don't really care about.
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Maybe it is just as a non-zerg I cannot appreciate it, but most ZvZ muta wars games I see go like:
Player A moves all his mutas to enemy. Enemy gains new batch of mutas and attacks, maybe 1 muta dies, player A now moves all his mutas back home being chased by all mutas of player B. New batch for player A arrives, and repeat.
Now player A didn't pay enough attention to his third in making, and a bunch of lings denied it. Proceed to player A's death animation that takes 10 minutes in which player B's muta ball steadily grows stronger than the one from player A. In the end he has enough and kills everything with mutas.
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honestly just slightly nerfing the muta feels better to me. The regeneration clause especially feels silly to me, it completely defeats the idea of going aoe attacks agianst muta which always was a traditional counter.
In return just nerf the widowmine a little bit and perhaps even reduce phoenix range by 1 again. It is indeed silly to see how much the muta threat in itself is so strong. Protoss is practically forced into phoenix at some point in an economical game just to be able to deal with rediculous muta switches.
The entire muta changes in beta were laughably silly. The unit was already in a fine place and then because widow mine and msc made defense a little easier they suddenly needed a stupid regeneration buff. A buff to keep them viable was a fine idea but increased regeneration was the worst way to do it, that's just nerfing one specific set of counters to the muta flock and did nothing for small amounts of muta. They were really just better off with almost any other buff, hp/spire cost/attack speed whatever.
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i just hope they dont nerf too much but buff underused stuff
seriously hots zerg is just not fun to play at all, basically its wol zerg with one unit taken away and no new units added vs terran and protoss who have so many cool toys to play around with
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On May 02 2013 23:31 Tsubbi wrote:
i just hope they dont nerf too much but buff underused stuff
seriously hots zerg is just not fun to play at all, basically its wol zerg with one unit taken away and no new units added vs terran and protoss who have so many cool toys to play around with
I don't know about you, but I think burying terran players in 10+ 3/5 ultralisks at the 18 min mark is plenty fun.
While I think Zerg got the least love in the move to HotS, its not like they got nothing...
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I also wouldn't really act like vipers are useless. Maybe not the greatest against the 4M metagame of terran right now (although I expect enough terrans are still using siege tanks, I know I am), but still a really nice addition.
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On May 02 2013 23:15 Sissors wrote:
Maybe it is just as a non-zerg I cannot appreciate it, but most ZvZ muta wars games I see go like:
Player A moves all his mutas to enemy. Enemy gains new batch of mutas and attacks, maybe 1 muta dies, player A now moves all his mutas back home being chased by all mutas of player B. New batch for player A arrives, and repeat.
Now player A didn't pay enough attention to his third in making, and a bunch of lings denied it. Proceed to player A's death animation that takes 10 minutes in which player B's muta ball steadily grows stronger than the one from player A. In the end he has enough and kills everything with mutas.
You got it about right. Though sometimes the games also go: player A gets a small advantage in the ling/bling war, translates it into a faster third or earlier mutas into complete mapcontrol and win.
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EPT
