EPTBut question then Empedocles, which boost do you propose to keep Terran competive with those nerfs?
Blizzard's Potential Balance Test Map Changes - Page 54
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Sissors
1395 Posts
But question then Empedocles, which boost do you propose to keep Terran competive with those nerfs? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 01 2013 03:30 digmouse wrote: Hellbat cargo space already took a nerf, they are not going anywhere unless you wanna make them so big that the medivac can only carry one... That's not enough. Let us introduce novelty! Make it so it takes two Medivacs to carry one Hellbat. | ||
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Empedocles
United States47 Posts
On May 01 2013 03:33 Sissors wrote: Which would make no sense whatsoever. But question then Empedocles, which boost do you propose to keep Terran competive with those nerfs? I forgot the cargo space was already changed to hold 2 hellbats, i think that is very fair. I do think the hellbat could use a slightly lower +light damage, i think the hellbat is currently like 15 damage (+30 light) which i think is a little overkill, zerglings certainly shouldnt be cost effective vs hellbats but i also dont think that they should be aoe'd down by a 2 shot that hits like 8 of them at once. Lastly, the widow mine i think could also use a slightly lower splash damage, i think the main target damage is fine, but the splash is really large and does i think too much damage, should be lowered a bit. Again losing a clump of 15 - 20 zerglings or bangling to one shot from a widow mine is a bit much. The medivac speed boast when it first came out, like a lot of ppl i thought it was OP but the more time has gone by i am convinced it is fine where it is, all the races got some nice new tools and this is something that helps make Terran bio more effective and i think it is fine where it is. So in the end all i am suggesting for Terran is the following: - a small nerf to the hellbats +light damage (say from 30 down to 25) - a small nerf to the mines aoe damage With that being said i also wouldnt mind seeing a very slight tank buff to keep the tank relevant, although i must say mech currently to me seems pretty strong. Terran is also a very robust and resilient race especially with the mule mechanic. I dont think the 3 changes i suggested would hurt Terran to the point where they would have trouble competing, but this is only my opinion coming from a Zerg player :D (former Terran player FYI) edit: ssisors do you think any of Terrans units are currently UP besides maybe the tank? edit#2: just to clarify i dont nessasarily think the tank is UP in itself, its just that the mine is so damn cheap and cost effective it almost negates the tank, which, with the change to make siege mode no longer needing to be researched, i think the tank is still a solid unit. | ||
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archwaykitten
90 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
And a small nerf to mine AOE damage has a huge effect for mines vs workers (well probes and drones). And if your small nerf is large enough it also has a huge effect vs lings. Regarding hellbats, I am in principle not against hellbat damage vs light lowered and at the same time make them be affected against by flue flame upgrade. But again then you need to do something to compensate. Transformation servo's should be made alot cheaper, but I don't see that having a significant influence. @Archway, same question for you, which boosts do you propose to keep Terran competitive or shouldn't that be the case? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 01 2013 03:59 archwaykitten wrote: The Terran Medivac should be unable to alter course while it is boosting. This would increase the skill required to use them, and give opponents the ability to skillfully thwart them by anticipating movement and setting up ambushes. It grants higher levels of decision making and control all around, while also serving as a slight nerf to something that feels a little bit too strong right now. Yep, prevent someone from controlling his units = increase the skill required to use them. Makes sense. | ||
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Empedocles
United States47 Posts
Maybe if they lowered the +light on the hellbat and made its damage more generic with a slight +all damage buff. The widow mine i honestly dont see how u could nerf its aoe damage while buffing something else, i dont see anything about that unit or any other unit u could buff to compinsate, i think in that case it might just be a situation where a unit needs a small nerf and nothing else gets buffed. | ||
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archwaykitten
90 Posts
On May 01 2013 04:10 TheDwf wrote: Yep, prevent someone from controlling his units = increase the skill required to use them. Makes sense. It does make sense. First of all, you're not preventing someone from controlling his units. You're giving him the option to cede control of his own units in return for a significant boost in speed. Second to second micro potential may go down, but the overall decision making becomes more demanding. Second of all, a great deal of skill can be required in order to overcome the downsides of a unit. It would take far more skill to navigate a bus through a set of driving challenges than it would to navigate a small sports car. It would be far harder to line up a perfect medivac route through an enemy's defenses if you couldn't make dozens of slight adjustments along the way. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On May 01 2013 04:51 archwaykitten wrote: It does make sense. First of all, you're not preventing someone from controlling his units. You're giving him the option to cede control of his own units in return for a significant boost in speed. Second to second micro potential may go down, but the overall decision making becomes more demanding. Second of all, a great deal of skill can be required in order to overcome the downsides of a unit. It would take far more skill to navigate a bus through a set of driving challenges than it would to navigate a small sports car. It would be far harder to line up a perfect medivac route through an enemy's defenses if you couldn't make dozens of slight adjustments along the way. And it would be a lot easier and require less skill for the opponent to stop the drop. You're not making the game require more skill, you're shifting the skill requirement from the other player to the Terran. | ||
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archwaykitten
90 Posts
On May 01 2013 04:00 Sissors wrote: @Archway, same question for you, which boosts do you propose to keep Terran competitive or shouldn't that be the case? I'm not worried about keeping Terran competitive overall. The notion that every nerf must be accompanied by a corresponding buff assumes that the game is perfectly balanced as is, which is not an assumption you can make. It will take years for the balance to shake out before we know which race is the most powerful overall. In the meantime I think there's plenty of room to make minor balance changes in the pursuit of strategic diversity. Medivacs feel too strong not because they make the entire Terran race overpowered, but because they overshadow everything else a Terran can do. Medivac harass can be added to almost every unit composition and strategy, with very little tradeoff. Similarly siege tanks feel like they could use a slight buff not because Terran needs another powerful new weapon, but because tanks are such an interesting positional unit, and the option for strong positional play is something that SC2 lacks compared to its predecesor. It's a shame tanks aren't seen more because of how interesting they are both to use and to fight against. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
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archwaykitten
90 Posts
On May 01 2013 05:02 aksfjh wrote: And it would be a lot easier and require less skill for the opponent to stop the drop. You're not making the game require more skill, you're shifting the skill requirement from the other player to the Terran. Yeah, you're right there. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though, given all the complaints recently about drops being far easier to execute than to defend against. Still, I was wrong to imply that say that it would flat out increase skill requirements all around. It probably would be more of a shift. Though I do think that the changes would introduce new opportunities for skill as well, even for the defender. The opportunity for anticipating or forcing medivac movement and setting up ambushes along their established path is one example. Also, while the new drops would be slightly less effective overall, they can potentially be defended against with less as well. A skilled defender can opt to stretch his defenses so thin that things won't actually be easier for him at all. | ||
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dunkincrsip
10 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 01 2013 05:21 archwaykitten wrote: I'm not worried about keeping Terran competitive overall. The notion that every nerf must be accompanied by a corresponding buff assumes that the game is perfectly balanced as is, which is not an assumption you can make. Oh no it doesn't make that assumption, it only makes the assumption that Terran is not too strong (so either balanced or too weak). So if now Terran is not too strong, and you want to significantly nerf what you yourself say is one of the strongest point of Terran, how does that not end up making terran weaker than they should be if you do not accompany it by a boost? Btw that medivac harrasment can be added to any unit composition is not bad, it is a requirement! Terran needs to prevent toss and especially zerg opponents from freely macro'ing, or it is pretty much a loss for terran. And the only harrasment tool terran has is the medivac. So it needs to be viable always, or you need to alter the macro mechanics. And nop, the hellion is in the mid game not a viable harrasment tool. It is too easy to shut down completely with a bit of sim-city from toss, and pretty much the same for zerg + their creep. So really I am fine if you want medivac boost nerfed, personally I agree that there atm might be to little downside to using boosters (although they do make for very interesting gameplay imo), but if you significantly nerf medivac drops that is simply an overall nerf to terran, and since I dont think terran should be weaker, you need to think of a boost to accompany your nerf. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
So in the end all i am suggesting for Terran is the following: - a small nerf to the hellbats +light damage (say from 30 down to 25) - a small nerf to the mines aoe damage First point, you're only nerfing zealots.. Either it's nerfed below 23 or 20 damage so that workers/marines die in 2 hits, or there's no change to workers or to lings, basically nothing on light ground that really matters changes aside from hellbat vs zealot. I guess you could make the argument against undamaged combat shielded marines, but really, hellbats are usually acompanied by marines or tanks so small amounts of damage will already be splashed onto or smart fired onto their targets before/after, lower damage always hurts, but small nerfs in that area wouldn't really hurt the unit so much small nerf to mines AOE damage? It does 40 damage, allowing it to oneshot non-terran workers before upgrades and oneshot lings Either you take away its one-shot-ability on certain units, or you dont. One is a massive, potentially unit destroying nerf, the other one is almost irrelevant. If there's tweaking on the widow mine, it will most likely be towards Build time, Cost, Movement speed, cooldown, burrow time, etc. | ||
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dunkincrsip
10 Posts
On May 01 2013 06:25 Cyro wrote: First point, you're only nerfing zealots.. Either it's nerfed below 23 or 20 damage so that workers/marines die in 2 hits, or there's no change to workers or to lings, basically nothing on light ground that really matters changes aside from hellbat vs zealot. I guess you could make the argument against undamaged combat shielded marines, but really, hellbats are usually acompanied by marines or tanks so small amounts of damage will already be splashed onto or smart fired onto their targets before/after, lower damage always hurts, but small nerfs in that area wouldn't really hurt the unit so much small nerf to mines AOE damage? It does 40 damage, allowing it to oneshot non-terran workers before upgrades and oneshot lings Either you take away its one-shot-ability on certain units, or you dont. One is a massive, potentially unit destroying nerf, the other one is almost irrelevant. If there's tweaking on the widow mine, it will most likely be towards Build time, Cost, Movement speed, cooldown, burrow time, etc. mines ignore armour | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
On May 01 2013 06:25 Cyro wrote: First point, you're only nerfing zealots.. Either it's nerfed below 23 or 20 damage so that workers/marines die in 2 hits, or there's no change to workers or to lings, basically nothing on light ground that really matters changes aside from hellbat vs zealot. I guess you could make the argument against undamaged combat shielded marines, but really, hellbats are usually acompanied by marines or tanks so small amounts of damage will already be splashed onto or smart fired onto their targets before/after, lower damage always hurts, but small nerfs in that area wouldn't really hurt the unit so much small nerf to mines AOE damage? It does 40 damage, allowing it to oneshot non-terran workers before upgrades and oneshot lings Either you take away its one-shot-ability on certain units, or you dont. One is a massive, potentially unit destroying nerf, the other one is almost irrelevant. If there's tweaking on the widow mine, it will most likely be towards Build time, Cost, Movement speed, cooldown, burrow time, etc. Splash radius could be an interesting tweak for the mines as it would only majorly affect mines vs zerglings/banelings. | ||
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Darth_Ihsahn
Mexico138 Posts
On May 01 2013 03:59 archwaykitten wrote: The Terran Medivac should be unable to alter course while it is boosting. This would increase the skill required to use them, and give opponents the ability to skillfully thwart them by anticipating movement and setting up ambushes. It grants higher levels of decision making and control all around, while also serving as a slight nerf to something that feels a little bit too strong right now. How about making boosting medivacs "drift" instead? Think of a real ship. The faster you go, the more difficult it becomes to alter your course. I think the physics engine should be able to handle it. | ||
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megapants
United States1314 Posts
just turn the corrupter into a unit, please. if not to help vs mass void ray then at least to improve its really shitty design. its like the air version of a marauder with no stim and costs a shitload of resources. edit: in response to increasing the difficulty to control medivac while boosted - i think that's a GREAT idea! not only helps balance but will also make for some really memorable and, let's be honest, fair plays. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 01 2013 09:05 zJayy962 wrote: Splash radius could be an interesting tweak for the mines as it would only majorly affect mines vs zerglings/banelings. And workers, marines, etc. @megapants, I don't think it is a bad idea for medivacs, but help balance? Right now there is nothing that indicates terran is OP, so how does a significant nerf to terran help balance? | ||
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