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On April 30 2013 05:12 Empedocles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:39 Shakattak wrote:On April 30 2013 04:29 Empedocles wrote:On April 30 2013 04:11 llIH wrote:
So many oppinions. It is a good idea to try to make unbiased comments.
I believe Zerg needs a buff because I lose to Zerg way more than any other race. But I do not believe I represent the best example of relevant players. Only in master. what race do you play that you lose to zerg a lot? I think zerg is in decent shape but i do agree that they overnerfed the infestor. It is barely even used anymore and i dont like that because the infestor is such a cool unit. Also, zerg is a race that is a little more APM/micro/skill intensive in that we have 2 pure casters with no attack at all + the creep spread + the injects + etc so idk... something to think about. i would agree that as a zerg player in masters zerg rewards apm a bit better than the other races. i dont think it requires more skill then the other races , just a different skill set . Lots of your mechanics are based around multitasking , while your production is more centralized . whereas a terrans production is multitasking based and their mechanics are more ridged. I agree i think he put what i was thinking into a little better wording. As for the SH, i agree also that the unit is not quite where we would want it to be. I think it can be a very powerful unit but it can also be very risky in that you need a lot of them to work first and second they can become easily overrun at times and can be killed quite quickly and then a lot of supply and resources just went down the drain. Myself, i do like to use them, mostly in ZvP to contain, with hydra and creep spread support to pressure the tosses 3rd. The only problem is when the toss gets enough to break the contain and push you back, if you dont react quickly enough and he snipes a couple SH's with his colosus you are gonna be in big trouble so you have to be careful of that. Also make sure to keep some roaches at home to defend against WP harrass cuz the SH's will never get back home in time. I havent really used the SH against mech too much yet. I have mostly been giong roach/hydra/viper into ultra with decent success. Might try to encorporate the SH in the midgame there, not sure yet. edit: also i dont know what they were saying earlier in this post about how SH are super strong in ZvZ (second only to muta) that has not been my experience, i have been able to crush SH in ZvZ with just roach/hydra/overseer (all with speed upgrades)...
If you don't mind me asking emp , how many sh's did you engage , I feel that they get out of control after 20 and that a ground army isn't the way to deal with it . Free units are tricky to balance .
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On April 30 2013 05:47 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 05:12 Empedocles wrote:On April 30 2013 04:39 Shakattak wrote:On April 30 2013 04:29 Empedocles wrote:On April 30 2013 04:11 llIH wrote:
So many oppinions. It is a good idea to try to make unbiased comments.
I believe Zerg needs a buff because I lose to Zerg way more than any other race. But I do not believe I represent the best example of relevant players. Only in master. what race do you play that you lose to zerg a lot? I think zerg is in decent shape but i do agree that they overnerfed the infestor. It is barely even used anymore and i dont like that because the infestor is such a cool unit. Also, zerg is a race that is a little more APM/micro/skill intensive in that we have 2 pure casters with no attack at all + the creep spread + the injects + etc so idk... something to think about. i would agree that as a zerg player in masters zerg rewards apm a bit better than the other races. i dont think it requires more skill then the other races , just a different skill set . Lots of your mechanics are based around multitasking , while your production is more centralized . whereas a terrans production is multitasking based and their mechanics are more ridged. I agree i think he put what i was thinking into a little better wording. As for the SH, i agree also that the unit is not quite where we would want it to be. I think it can be a very powerful unit but it can also be very risky in that you need a lot of them to work first and second they can become easily overrun at times and can be killed quite quickly and then a lot of supply and resources just went down the drain. Myself, i do like to use them, mostly in ZvP to contain, with hydra and creep spread support to pressure the tosses 3rd. The only problem is when the toss gets enough to break the contain and push you back, if you dont react quickly enough and he snipes a couple SH's with his colosus you are gonna be in big trouble so you have to be careful of that. Also make sure to keep some roaches at home to defend against WP harrass cuz the SH's will never get back home in time. I havent really used the SH against mech too much yet. I have mostly been giong roach/hydra/viper into ultra with decent success. Might try to encorporate the SH in the midgame there, not sure yet. edit: also i dont know what they were saying earlier in this post about how SH are super strong in ZvZ (second only to muta) that has not been my experience, i have been able to crush SH in ZvZ with just roach/hydra/overseer (all with speed upgrades)... If you don't mind me asking emp , how many sh's did you engage , I feel that they get out of control after 20 and that a ground army isn't the way to deal with it . Free units are tricky to balance .
Hey Shattack,
I usually get a decent number of Hydras first, just so i have a good base to protect them, maybe 8 - 10 hydras. then i go into SH production and i dont make too too many, maybe 10 of them or so and then i push to outside of their 3rd and set up the contain. Make sure your creep spread has been going and it should time out to be there at just about the time you move out there. Then i begin the siege while constantly building a few more hydras and SH's until my hive finishes and then i begin the final phase of production which is ultra's. around this time they usually break out of the contain, the key is to have your SHs and hydras hotkeyed and pull them back to your base as the toss is pushing you back with losing as few as possible SHs and Hydras. This usually times up with the first few ultras coming out which works out good because by the time the toss gets to your base you have reburrowed the SHs and are again throwing waves at the advancing toss army and now you can engage with ur ultras and hydras timed with each wave of locusts moving out. everything works out pretty good just again dont lose too much when the toss breaks out of the contain and dont let WP harrass take out ur expos, keep some roaches at home for that :D
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Spores would be much better if they had 50/60 damage vs bio.
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On April 29 2013 20:32 algue wrote:
After the MLG, the ESET UK masters and the DH i don't think that zerg needs a buff atm.
They never did need a buff. I said this, and maybe a few others did during the beta/at release:
Zerg is the most reactive race, and therefore out of the three will take the longest for people to figure out because of the larva mechanic. Terran and Protoss gained a few new potent early/mid-game attacks and builds that had to be figured out. Zerg seemed to be "underpowered" or "weak" at first only to the people that were quick to judgement.
As the game knowledge increases in the community, Zerg is back up to "balanced" strength because of not simply dying to "new stuff."
Which is why it is good blizzard actually waited this time to see this play out, instead of listening to Zerg players that were vocal about something that was not an issue in the first place.
A lot of it also had to do with the fact the new T/P units come into play earlier on in the game than the new Zerg units. Swarmhosts are tier2 at infestation pit, buffed ultras, and vipers are hive tech. Hellbats, mines, mothership core, new voids, faster DTS, oracles are a bit lower on the tech tree than Zergs new things.
So it was obvious with that set of data, a lot of games were more likely going to end in the early/mid-game before Zerg had a chance to utilize their new tools.
More on topic...hell no to oracle buffs, hell no to burrow buffs...the only thing that makes sense from this thread and the designers is to fix ZvZ muta wars...and if they are smart they will nerf the tempests supply to 6 or 8, as well as removing the bio flag from the hellbat to simultaneously help mech TvP and tone down hellbat drops in all match-ups.
p.s. There was what, 1 Terran in Dreamhack ro16 or something? Does this mean Terran is underpowered? Nope, it just happens the Z/P players played better or caught up to Terrans. Each race has a lot of new tools that have increased the skill cap quite a bit.
It should be interesting to note though, before this tournament the fervor in the community around "OMG TERRAN OP! NERF NOW!" was pretty high, but Dreamhack should be a good example to basically say, "no one has a fucking clue." Also medivac speed boost doesn't look at all OP now that P/Z players are utilizing their new stuff too.
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My two cents on swarmhosts:
I think that Z players need to use them in other ways. They're fine in a ball of 10+, sure. However, they can be so nasty when paired up with fast overlords. Dropping them is pretty decent (drop, burrow, spawn, unburrow, pickup, move on to next base). For battles, using a small number of them 4-8 in overlords to get around the flanks or rear of the enemy army and flank attack/ cut off their retreat is also great. Using the ovies to give them maneuverability and options is interesting.
Regarding the mooted changes from bliz:
I don't yet understand the thinking behind an oracle speed buff. They're fast already, I'm not sure what this would change really; maybe make it easier to kill moving workers.
As for the spore +bio damage, that seems acceptable but boring. Spores already do double damage vs bio, so I don't think that this is the right way to address muta muta in ZvZ.
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On April 30 2013 06:43 Magpie842 wrote:
My two cents on swarmhosts:
I think that Z players need to use them in other ways. They're fine in a ball of 10+, sure. However, they can be so nasty when paired up with fast overlords. Dropping them is pretty decent (drop, burrow, spawn, unburrow, pickup, move on to next base). For battles, using a small number of them 4-8 in overlords to get around the flanks or rear of the enemy army and flank attack/ cut off their retreat is also great. Using the ovies to give them maneuverability and options is interesting.
Regarding the mooted changes from bliz:
I don't yet understand the thinking behind an oracle speed buff. They're fast already, I'm not sure what this would change really; maybe make it easier to kill moving workers.
As for the spore +bio damage, that seems acceptable but boring. Spores already do double damage vs bio, so I don't think that this is the right way to address muta muta in ZvZ.
I really agree with your last point. The buff to spore +bio first of all has already taken place and second of all is boring, uncreative and does not really address the real issue, that being Zergs few and far between options when playing against other zerg.
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On April 30 2013 07:13 Empedocles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 06:43 Magpie842 wrote:
My two cents on swarmhosts:
I think that Z players need to use them in other ways. They're fine in a ball of 10+, sure. However, they can be so nasty when paired up with fast overlords. Dropping them is pretty decent (drop, burrow, spawn, unburrow, pickup, move on to next base). For battles, using a small number of them 4-8 in overlords to get around the flanks or rear of the enemy army and flank attack/ cut off their retreat is also great. Using the ovies to give them maneuverability and options is interesting.
Regarding the mooted changes from bliz:
I don't yet understand the thinking behind an oracle speed buff. They're fast already, I'm not sure what this would change really; maybe make it easier to kill moving workers.
As for the spore +bio damage, that seems acceptable but boring. Spores already do double damage vs bio, so I don't think that this is the right way to address muta muta in ZvZ. I really agree with your last point. The buff to spore +bio first of all has already taken place and second of all is boring, uncreative and does not really address the real issue, that being Zergs few and far between options when playing against other zerg.
Yeah , like I said though i still think just making fungal a slow instead of root and bring back insta cast , like I know people foud it boring but really that nerf caused this mess when all they needed to do was tweak it .
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On April 30 2013 06:40 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 20:32 algue wrote:
After the MLG, the ESET UK masters and the DH i don't think that zerg needs a buff atm. They never did need a buff. I said this, and maybe a few others did during the beta/at release: Zerg is the most reactive race, and therefore out of the three will take the longest for people to figure out because of the larva mechanic. Terran and Protoss gained a few new potent early/mid-game attacks and builds that had to be figured out. Zerg seemed to be "underpowered" or "weak" at first only to the people that were quick to judgement. As the game knowledge increases in the community, Zerg is back up to "balanced" strength because of not simply dying to "new stuff." Which is why it is good blizzard actually waited this time to see this play out, instead of listening to Zerg players that were vocal about something that was not an issue in the first place. A lot of it also had to do with the fact the new T/P units come into play earlier on in the game than the new Zerg units. Swarmhosts are tier2 at infestation pit, buffed ultras, and vipers are hive tech. Hellbats, mines, mothership core, new voids, faster DTS, oracles are a bit lower on the tech tree than Zergs new things. So it was obvious with that set of data, a lot of games were more likely going to end in the early/mid-game before Zerg had a chance to utilize their new tools. More on topic...hell no to oracle buffs, hell no to burrow buffs...the only thing that makes sense from this thread and the designers is to fix ZvZ muta wars...and if they are smart they will nerf the tempests supply to 6 or 8, as well as removing the bio flag from the hellbat to simultaneously help mech TvP and tone down hellbat drops in all match-ups. p.s. There was what, 1 Terran in Dreamhack ro16 or something? Does this mean Terran is underpowered? Nope, it just happens the Z/P players played better or caught up to Terrans. Each race has a lot of new tools that have increased the skill cap quite a bit. It should be interesting to note though, before this tournament the fervor in the community around "OMG TERRAN OP! NERF NOW!" was pretty high, but Dreamhack should be a good example to basically say, "no one has a fucking clue." Also medivac speed boost doesn't look at all OP now that P/Z players are utilizing their new stuff too.
Hmm , I am not sure about the bio flag being removed , the unit is pretty slow and you can only drop two per drop ship . Using static D would be ideal to take away the threat of those . I agree turbo vacs are not op at all .
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United States7483 Posts
On April 30 2013 07:13 Empedocles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 06:43 Magpie842 wrote:
My two cents on swarmhosts:
I think that Z players need to use them in other ways. They're fine in a ball of 10+, sure. However, they can be so nasty when paired up with fast overlords. Dropping them is pretty decent (drop, burrow, spawn, unburrow, pickup, move on to next base). For battles, using a small number of them 4-8 in overlords to get around the flanks or rear of the enemy army and flank attack/ cut off their retreat is also great. Using the ovies to give them maneuverability and options is interesting.
Regarding the mooted changes from bliz:
I don't yet understand the thinking behind an oracle speed buff. They're fast already, I'm not sure what this would change really; maybe make it easier to kill moving workers.
As for the spore +bio damage, that seems acceptable but boring. Spores already do double damage vs bio, so I don't think that this is the right way to address muta muta in ZvZ. I really agree with your last point. The buff to spore +bio first of all has already taken place and second of all is boring, uncreative and does not really address the real issue, that being Zergs few and far between options when playing against other zerg.
Could give the queen's anti-air attack light splash but only against bio.
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On April 30 2013 08:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 07:13 Empedocles wrote:On April 30 2013 06:43 Magpie842 wrote:
My two cents on swarmhosts:
I think that Z players need to use them in other ways. They're fine in a ball of 10+, sure. However, they can be so nasty when paired up with fast overlords. Dropping them is pretty decent (drop, burrow, spawn, unburrow, pickup, move on to next base). For battles, using a small number of them 4-8 in overlords to get around the flanks or rear of the enemy army and flank attack/ cut off their retreat is also great. Using the ovies to give them maneuverability and options is interesting.
Regarding the mooted changes from bliz:
I don't yet understand the thinking behind an oracle speed buff. They're fast already, I'm not sure what this would change really; maybe make it easier to kill moving workers.
As for the spore +bio damage, that seems acceptable but boring. Spores already do double damage vs bio, so I don't think that this is the right way to address muta muta in ZvZ. I really agree with your last point. The buff to spore +bio first of all has already taken place and second of all is boring, uncreative and does not really address the real issue, that being Zergs few and far between options when playing against other zerg. Could give the queen's anti-air attack light splash but only against bio.
This won´t happen because blizzard is against such complicate thing for gamers.
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On April 30 2013 08:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 07:13 Empedocles wrote:On April 30 2013 06:43 Magpie842 wrote:
My two cents on swarmhosts:
I think that Z players need to use them in other ways. They're fine in a ball of 10+, sure. However, they can be so nasty when paired up with fast overlords. Dropping them is pretty decent (drop, burrow, spawn, unburrow, pickup, move on to next base). For battles, using a small number of them 4-8 in overlords to get around the flanks or rear of the enemy army and flank attack/ cut off their retreat is also great. Using the ovies to give them maneuverability and options is interesting.
Regarding the mooted changes from bliz:
I don't yet understand the thinking behind an oracle speed buff. They're fast already, I'm not sure what this would change really; maybe make it easier to kill moving workers.
As for the spore +bio damage, that seems acceptable but boring. Spores already do double damage vs bio, so I don't think that this is the right way to address muta muta in ZvZ. I really agree with your last point. The buff to spore +bio first of all has already taken place and second of all is boring, uncreative and does not really address the real issue, that being Zergs few and far between options when playing against other zerg. Could give the queen's anti-air attack light splash but only against bio.
yeah i still dislike the only vs bio mind set
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On April 30 2013 08:50 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 08:03 Whitewing wrote:On April 30 2013 07:13 Empedocles wrote:On April 30 2013 06:43 Magpie842 wrote:
My two cents on swarmhosts:
I think that Z players need to use them in other ways. They're fine in a ball of 10+, sure. However, they can be so nasty when paired up with fast overlords. Dropping them is pretty decent (drop, burrow, spawn, unburrow, pickup, move on to next base). For battles, using a small number of them 4-8 in overlords to get around the flanks or rear of the enemy army and flank attack/ cut off their retreat is also great. Using the ovies to give them maneuverability and options is interesting.
Regarding the mooted changes from bliz:
I don't yet understand the thinking behind an oracle speed buff. They're fast already, I'm not sure what this would change really; maybe make it easier to kill moving workers.
As for the spore +bio damage, that seems acceptable but boring. Spores already do double damage vs bio, so I don't think that this is the right way to address muta muta in ZvZ. I really agree with your last point. The buff to spore +bio first of all has already taken place and second of all is boring, uncreative and does not really address the real issue, that being Zergs few and far between options when playing against other zerg. Could give the queen's anti-air attack light splash but only against bio. yeah i still dislike the only vs bio mind set
Well the trouble is, outside of other zerg air, zerg anti air are pretty damn good against everything. Especially Terran stuff. A buff outside of just to +bio could possibly break everything.
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On April 30 2013 09:26 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 08:50 Shakattak wrote:On April 30 2013 08:03 Whitewing wrote:On April 30 2013 07:13 Empedocles wrote:On April 30 2013 06:43 Magpie842 wrote:
My two cents on swarmhosts:
I think that Z players need to use them in other ways. They're fine in a ball of 10+, sure. However, they can be so nasty when paired up with fast overlords. Dropping them is pretty decent (drop, burrow, spawn, unburrow, pickup, move on to next base). For battles, using a small number of them 4-8 in overlords to get around the flanks or rear of the enemy army and flank attack/ cut off their retreat is also great. Using the ovies to give them maneuverability and options is interesting.
Regarding the mooted changes from bliz:
I don't yet understand the thinking behind an oracle speed buff. They're fast already, I'm not sure what this would change really; maybe make it easier to kill moving workers.
As for the spore +bio damage, that seems acceptable but boring. Spores already do double damage vs bio, so I don't think that this is the right way to address muta muta in ZvZ. I really agree with your last point. The buff to spore +bio first of all has already taken place and second of all is boring, uncreative and does not really address the real issue, that being Zergs few and far between options when playing against other zerg. Could give the queen's anti-air attack light splash but only against bio. yeah i still dislike the only vs bio mind set Well the trouble is, outside of other zerg air, zerg anti air are pretty damn good against everything. Especially Terran stuff. A buff outside of just to +bio could possibly break everything.
What do you think of my infestor idea ?
1 bring back insta cast keep current range
2 root changed to slow
3 keep damage the same
I think it would work decently ! Mutas can be picked off when slowed , the infestor wouldn't break the other matchups then and could be used as a support (as it was made for ) instead of it being your go to unit .
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
I think it could work, but I think having the ability to dodge fungal is important as long as it's got damage.
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On April 30 2013 10:06 Qikz wrote:
I think it could work, but I think having the ability to dodge fungal is important as long as it's got damage.
trade off? what do you even mean...
The only trade off for the other race's aoe spells is if they retardedly walk their own units into them.
fungal was just a stupid skill after they redesigned it from its original form. It used to root for a long ass time and do very little damage. It was a root, in purpose, not a dps skill. Then they buffed the damage and took away some of the root, then they nerfed the damage. So now it's just a shitty spell. And infested terrans blow dick.
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What if the oracle's attack rebounds three times, and the rebounds get a percentage decrease in dps? This way it can be more effective when killing workers.
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On April 30 2013 10:10 DoSu wrote:
What if the oracle's attack rebounds three times, and the rebounds get a percentage decrease in dps? This way it can be more effective when killing workers.
Then oracles become complicated expensive mutas. Well actually blizzard is probably fine with overlapping units now since they gave every race a dragoon already.
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On April 30 2013 07:13 Empedocles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 06:43 Magpie842 wrote:
My two cents on swarmhosts:
I think that Z players need to use them in other ways. They're fine in a ball of 10+, sure. However, they can be so nasty when paired up with fast overlords. Dropping them is pretty decent (drop, burrow, spawn, unburrow, pickup, move on to next base). For battles, using a small number of them 4-8 in overlords to get around the flanks or rear of the enemy army and flank attack/ cut off their retreat is also great. Using the ovies to give them maneuverability and options is interesting.
Regarding the mooted changes from bliz:
I don't yet understand the thinking behind an oracle speed buff. They're fast already, I'm not sure what this would change really; maybe make it easier to kill moving workers.
As for the spore +bio damage, that seems acceptable but boring. Spores already do double damage vs bio, so I don't think that this is the right way to address muta muta in ZvZ. I really agree with your last point. The buff to spore +bio first of all has already taken place and second of all is boring, uncreative and does not really address the real issue, that being Zergs few and far between options when playing against other zerg.
I honestly don't know how Blizzard didn't saw this coming. All zerg needed for this to change was another anti air unit (which zergs are seriously lacking btw). How about make corrupters interesting and give them some sort of twist? They are one of the most boring units in the game not to mention completely useless against muta's (they will get avoided forever or simply get picked off once the muta ball comes too big)
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On April 30 2013 12:07 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 07:13 Empedocles wrote:On April 30 2013 06:43 Magpie842 wrote:
My two cents on swarmhosts:
I think that Z players need to use them in other ways. They're fine in a ball of 10+, sure. However, they can be so nasty when paired up with fast overlords. Dropping them is pretty decent (drop, burrow, spawn, unburrow, pickup, move on to next base). For battles, using a small number of them 4-8 in overlords to get around the flanks or rear of the enemy army and flank attack/ cut off their retreat is also great. Using the ovies to give them maneuverability and options is interesting.
Regarding the mooted changes from bliz:
I don't yet understand the thinking behind an oracle speed buff. They're fast already, I'm not sure what this would change really; maybe make it easier to kill moving workers.
As for the spore +bio damage, that seems acceptable but boring. Spores already do double damage vs bio, so I don't think that this is the right way to address muta muta in ZvZ. I really agree with your last point. The buff to spore +bio first of all has already taken place and second of all is boring, uncreative and does not really address the real issue, that being Zergs few and far between options when playing against other zerg. I honestly don't know how Blizzard didn't saw this coming. All zerg needed for this to change was another anti air unit (which zergs are seriously lacking btw). How about make corrupters interesting and give them some sort of twist? They are one of the most boring units in the game not to mention completely useless against muta's (they will get avoided forever or simply get picked off once the muta ball comes too big)
I agree 100% Thats what i have been saying all along. The corruptor is currently useless. It gets OWNED by void rays and even muta's and the curruptor's ability is almost never used because the zerg player has two other casters already to worry about and never has time to individually cast a spell from each corruptor in the heat of battle. Zerg is so lacking in air and anti air that the one heavy, "strong" air unit we have is useless and boring. They need to either make corruption an autocast spell which i personally think would be really cool, or give the corruptor a whole new ability or maybe even give zerg another air or at least anti air option in their arsonel. I mean protoss already had strong air and they gave them 2 new flying units and gave the VR a new OP ability and zerg gets nothing (air or anit air wise), it just makes no sense to me.
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On April 30 2013 10:10 DoSu wrote:
What if the oracle's attack rebounds three times, and the rebounds get a percentage decrease in dps? This way it can be more effective when killing workers.
Yeah, because Oracles totally need to be more effective at killing workers...
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EPT
