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On April 29 2013 19:06 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:30 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:20 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:
[quote]
the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough). I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them. but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta. Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine. there should be many ways to play a matchup , i personally love muta on muta but being able to do something else is nice too. you are advocating only one way to play a mirror , am i correct in that ? You are correct, but its only because Swarmhost are too strong in ZvZ. They are atm not viable only because muta are better. I think they should allow infestors to be viable again, they just need to tweak it , keep the damage bring back insta cast make a slow so mutas are also viable , fungal can be used in conjunction with hydras with the slow you can keep muta count's down so they don't snowball. Infestors are viable now. Before they were far too viable as they were a support casting unit which cost for cost beat every single unit in the game. There's a reason why armies in WoL were X, Infestor. The infestor worked so well with everything there was no reason to build anything else.
It was because as a support caster it was never in any danger , infestors had range plus insta cast with a root , I addressed those problems by saying make it a slow ( this is not a new idea) bring back insta cast so you can hit the mutas.
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On April 29 2013 19:00 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 18:52 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 16:30 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:20 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough). I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them. but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta. Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine. there should be many ways to play a matchup , i personally love muta on muta but being able to do something else is nice too. you are advocating only one way to play a mirror , am i correct in that ? You are correct, but its only because Swarmhost are too strong in ZvZ. They are atm not viable only because muta are better. I think they should allow infestors to be viable again, they just need to tweak it , keep the damage bring back insta cast make a slow so mutas are also viable , fungal can be used in conjunction with hydras with the slow you can keep muta count's down so they don't snowball. There is only one way to "tweak" the Infestor and make it viable without making it overpowered again: Step 1: Fungal is instacast again Step 2: Infested Terran is removed from the game and replaced with something different ... simply nerfing it would push the bar for the "critical number" a bit further away, but it wont remove it. You NEED TO remove the Infested Terran to prevent people from reaching the critical number. Being able to spawn up to eight supply worth of Marines for a two supply unit is not a good concept. Ah see but the issue with you talking about the infested terran , is the fact that it costs energy would I rather have a fungal ? The IT's are good because they don't scale as well when the game goes(no upgrades) on they are slow and the eggs have been changed . Fungal is the problem with ZvZ now , the missile makes it hard to hit a fast moving unit like the mutualisk , buddy needs to be standing still for you to hit him unless you have good aim.
Well, at this point they nerfed the Infestor so heavily due to its endgame power, that it simply fails to deliver in the midgame what it is meant to. I believe at this point a 25gas reduction would be quite fair and work wonders in terms of ZvZ and TvZ gameplay options, without suddenly making mass infestor viable again. But is it needed balancewise? Well, I don't think so.
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On April 29 2013 19:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 19:00 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 18:52 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 16:30 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:20 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:
[quote]
The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough).
I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them. but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta. Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine. there should be many ways to play a matchup , i personally love muta on muta but being able to do something else is nice too. you are advocating only one way to play a mirror , am i correct in that ? You are correct, but its only because Swarmhost are too strong in ZvZ. They are atm not viable only because muta are better. I think they should allow infestors to be viable again, they just need to tweak it , keep the damage bring back insta cast make a slow so mutas are also viable , fungal can be used in conjunction with hydras with the slow you can keep muta count's down so they don't snowball. There is only one way to "tweak" the Infestor and make it viable without making it overpowered again: Step 1: Fungal is instacast again Step 2: Infested Terran is removed from the game and replaced with something different ... simply nerfing it would push the bar for the "critical number" a bit further away, but it wont remove it. You NEED TO remove the Infested Terran to prevent people from reaching the critical number. Being able to spawn up to eight supply worth of Marines for a two supply unit is not a good concept. Ah see but the issue with you talking about the infested terran , is the fact that it costs energy would I rather have a fungal ? The IT's are good because they don't scale as well when the game goes(no upgrades) on they are slow and the eggs have been changed . Fungal is the problem with ZvZ now , the missile makes it hard to hit a fast moving unit like the mutualisk , buddy needs to be standing still for you to hit him unless you have good aim. Well, at this point they nerfed the Infestor so heavily due to its endgame power, that it simply fails to deliver in the midgame what it is meant to. I believe at this point a 25gas reduction would be quite fair and work wonders in terms of ZvZ and TvZ gameplay options, without suddenly making mass infestor viable again. But is it needed balancewise? Well, I don't think so.
I'm inclined to agree. A lot of the complaints read like "infestors have been over nerfed because they're not good against everything anymore..." that's surely the point. Instacast fungal was way too strong given its range damage output and ensnare. It's comparable to ghosts and HT's now, you can't just mass them and win. Muta glave bounce and stacked density scales too hard for anything without splash to handle, but bringing back the old OP infestors is a dumb solution. They're still good in ZvT and reasonable in ZvP but you have to use them with other units now (and not just sitting them under broodlords). That's how support casters are supposed to work, if an optimal composition consists of just 2 unit types somethings very wrong, likewise if 200/200 of mutas is an auto win thats not right either....
Rather than a straight damage buff I'd like to see something like a spore mutation (say with a hive requirement) that gives them splash...
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After the MLG, the ESET UK masters and the DH i don't think that zerg needs a buff atm.
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On April 29 2013 20:32 algue wrote:
After the MLG, the ESET UK masters and the DH i don't think that zerg needs a buff atm.
Zerg needs a small buff in SH burrow-reburrow time.
MLG and DH was won by the best player in the world(Life) and 2nd best zerg(Leenock).
They just look better than everyone else.
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On April 29 2013 20:39 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 20:32 algue wrote:
After the MLG, the ESET UK masters and the DH i don't think that zerg needs a buff atm. Zerg needs a small buff in SH burrow-reburrow time.
No, Zerg does not need a "buff". But blizzard shouldn't stop improving the game at this point, even if progamers want them to take it slow. It's gonna be more annoying to make certain units/styles work if they start in half a year, while 1-2 months after release it would be reasonable to tweak a thing or two and guarantee longlasting variety and fun.
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On April 29 2013 19:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 19:00 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 18:52 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 16:30 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:20 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:
[quote]
The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough).
I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them. but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta. Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine. there should be many ways to play a matchup , i personally love muta on muta but being able to do something else is nice too. you are advocating only one way to play a mirror , am i correct in that ? You are correct, but its only because Swarmhost are too strong in ZvZ. They are atm not viable only because muta are better. I think they should allow infestors to be viable again, they just need to tweak it , keep the damage bring back insta cast make a slow so mutas are also viable , fungal can be used in conjunction with hydras with the slow you can keep muta count's down so they don't snowball. There is only one way to "tweak" the Infestor and make it viable without making it overpowered again: Step 1: Fungal is instacast again Step 2: Infested Terran is removed from the game and replaced with something different ... simply nerfing it would push the bar for the "critical number" a bit further away, but it wont remove it. You NEED TO remove the Infested Terran to prevent people from reaching the critical number. Being able to spawn up to eight supply worth of Marines for a two supply unit is not a good concept. Ah see but the issue with you talking about the infested terran , is the fact that it costs energy would I rather have a fungal ? The IT's are good because they don't scale as well when the game goes(no upgrades) on they are slow and the eggs have been changed . Fungal is the problem with ZvZ now , the missile makes it hard to hit a fast moving unit like the mutualisk , buddy needs to be standing still for you to hit him unless you have good aim. Well, at this point they nerfed the Infestor so heavily due to its endgame power, that it simply fails to deliver in the midgame what it is meant to. I believe at this point a 25gas reduction would be quite fair and work wonders in terms of ZvZ and TvZ gameplay options, without suddenly making mass infestor viable again. But is it needed balancewise? Well, I don't think so.
Most Zergs are often still preparing for Mass Infestors, even if they only want a few. So their transition is way to costly. Also the Swarmhost was probably meant to make Infestation Pit a bit more viable to go for, but since you basically just get expensive but supply efficient Roaches they only appeal for 200 supply situations.
I personally skip the 150/150 upgrade often, get a few Infestors and tech past them and keep them alive for as long as possible. In which case the energy upgrade is not worth it. Of course this denies the situational Infestor you get to finish it with a Fungal when the opponent is rushing you in a giant clump. But from my experience those hardly work in HotS anyway, because of the removed armored damage and because Medivacs have a good chance at surviving fights now, so a single fungal won't do anything.
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On April 29 2013 20:39 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 20:32 algue wrote:
After the MLG, the ESET UK masters and the DH i don't think that zerg needs a buff atm. Zerg needs a small buff in SH burrow-reburrow time. MLG and DH was won by the best player in the world(Life) and 2nd best zerg(Leenock). They just look better than everyone else.
In the case of Dreamhack, that's not really the whole truth. Zerg was doing pretty well in that tournament overall; check the racial distribution: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_DreamHack_Open/Stockholm.
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On April 29 2013 20:39 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 20:32 algue wrote:
After the MLG, the ESET UK masters and the DH i don't think that zerg needs a buff atm. Zerg needs a small buff in SH burrow-reburrow time. MLG and DH was won by the best player in the world(Life) and 2nd best zerg(Leenock). They just look better than everyone else.
well in MLG, most players got rolled by the best terran players.(Innovation,Flash)
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On April 29 2013 14:05 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 13:18 Rorschach wrote:On April 29 2013 13:11 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 13:04 Rorschach wrote:
Muta into ultra followed by resuming muta production seems fairly brutal vs P atm. Not necessarily the units themselves but really does showcase the power of the larva mechanic for the race.
To be honest it feels somewhat of a gamble to try and play a macro game vs zerg. Also in HoTS with nearly every zerg tech path being viable in PvZ it does not bode well for Toss who have arguably the most rigid tech tree, infrastructure requirements and the units themselves being expensive plus slow to build.
Don't want to come across as whining but it certainly is frustrating to try and play reactionary in the MU. from the perspective of a zerg, the protoss army is still efficiently deadly . the tendency of toss to go air into colossi is the reason this build is so effective lings are key to this build so make more zealots deny bases zerg is supposed to be brutal to deal with especially if the zerg has the money to go muta and then into ultra to just switch back to muta . From the toss perspective while dealing with a flock of 20-30 mutas is certainly doable (phoenix w/range, cannons, blink, storm) its hard to WP harass, take a 4th and also have the infrastructure to deal w/hive tech. IF I defend on 3 bases with minimal losses by the time I am ready for the 3 base push/allin my army probably looks something like this; a bunch of blink stalkers, archons and HT w/storm which is a fairly terrible composition vs ultra. Options seem to be to just put 8-10 cannons on one of your bases and try and base trade prior to the 15min mark/hive. Yes its hard but so is spreading creep and injects etc while trying to scout and react appropriately to what the toss is going , i feel a lot of us zergs blindly counter because most protoss just do one kind of build . yes WP harass requires effort but it is not out of your grasp or skill level some terrans drop two - three places at once, i feel like some protoss players should try out a lot of drop orientated play and come back with more data! I feel that i lose more games to when warp prisms are used then when they don't anything that increases pressure on the zerg is ideal.
You misunderstood my point, I wasn't saying it was difficult to multitask but that once mutas are out the P loses map control. Between the mutas flying everywhere, the zerg getting to hold the towers, creep spread and ovies to spot its usually too risky to spend money on a WP that will probably die.
Same goes for TvZ, as the terran will typically stop harassing once mutas are out. Maybe its not as true in HoTS since the medivac boosters but you get my point.
The toss needs to not only retain units but if the zerg is investing a lot into muta likewise you better be pumping lots of phoenix, stalkers and/or cannons so its not like you have the resources to gamble and try to throw away zealots hoping your opponent is playing badly.
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On April 29 2013 14:16 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 13:45 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 12:53 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 19:02 Rabiator wrote:On April 28 2013 16:41 FakeDeath wrote:On April 28 2013 16:34 tuho12345 wrote:On April 28 2013 16:33 FakeDeath wrote:On April 28 2013 16:29 tuho12345 wrote:On April 28 2013 12:19 houseurmusic wrote:
put bonus vs air on fungal growth. Solves zvz, zvp (mass air), and zvt (punish medivacs) lol, so how about mass mutas against Protoss??? Toss can't deal with mass mutas w/o phoenixes and phoenixes are paper plane Just open stargate. Phoenix got a passive +1 range buff. doesn't matter how you open, Zerg in late game can switch tech easily, watch LeeNock vs Nani...... Leenock had like 5 bases economy whereas Nani was on 3 bases. It was just a numbers game. Nani never did serious harassment to punish Leenock barring one warp prism harass. Whereas Leenock was putting heavy pressure on Nani WHILE expanding his economy and taking more bases. The muta switch only came way later after Leenock traded with Nani and reducing his archons count and after his phoenix was taken out by hydra. Leenock just keep on trading with Nani until he was starved out. That tech switch was smart. Switching back and forth between hydra/ultra/muta. That is the power of zerg. Using that game to whine about mass muta being OP is silly. Kinda "proves" what I have said for some time now ... there is too much production capacity (and economy) in SC2 and being able to tech switch this fast is bad design. Most of the times it doesnt have this big of an impact, but it "forces" the "don't let him get there" strategy on you and if someone seriously defends against harrassment (because he is ahead in economy) you simply can't do anything against it anymore. Well played by both players (under the circumstances), but there was nothing Naniwa himself could do to "correct" the mistake of not keeping the Zerg economy down from the get go. He would have needed a mistake of Leenock to win, but that should never be part of the game design. On April 28 2013 17:56 Teoita wrote:
This is different from WoL where a 4base Protoss would already have storm, blink and enough economy to invest in cannons and hold the mutas easily. 1-2 cannons won't scare 40 Mutalisks away and only a few pros ever build cannons anyways ... until they know they are facing something drop / harrass heavy. The problem is the "throw away an entire army and remake it in one round" issue of SC2 ... stockpiling larvae is bad (as is a crapton of ready Warp Gates to warp in at the front). so the issue is the macro mechanics not the units according to you? Exactly ... just look at the Infestor ... if you only had the ability to macro up 2-3 of them they would not be as problematic as 25-30 of them. Same as for the Mutalisks ... getting 40 in one minute or so is simply too much. Basing the game around a strong economy and production capability is the wrong choice, because then "keeping your units alive" is not important. Skills like microing your units defensively (blinking Stalkers, burrowing Zerg units, dropship pickups of big units like Colossi or Immortals or Thors) are used far too rarely and mostly when the numbers are SMALL. This is a loss for the viewers and the players, because the games are dull and the players with higher skill capability are overpowered by those with the better economy planning. At the core of it all is the movement and unit selection mechanic too, because 20+ Roaches/Stalkers/MM can easily one-shot any building in a base. That is not exciting because it is over far too fast and the excitement only comes when you have only 3-4 Zealots hitting a Hatchery while being nibbled at by some Zerglings / Drones and the hit points of the building get low; thats when it is exciting and not when you have 3 Medivacs full of bio dropping into a base and then going on a rampage there without regard of their own lives (because they know they will be replaced anyways). LESS is MORE. hmm well there is the counter argument that if i can make 40 mutas there was a mistake that was made by the other player at some point in the game . though that said i understand the issue with larva i am an upper mid master zerg sometimes in the late game i feel almost invincible .
That is not even a counter argument but a piss poor excuse to cover imbalance. We had that the last 8 months of WoL with BL/infestor/spine and it sucked.
I can't speak for everyone but I don't think many want to play a game if those in charge of balance are fine with things being that way.
I was sick of 3 base allin pre hive timings in Wol or two base allins to maintain a good winrate. There was usually never a point to taking a fourth and going for the macro game.
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On April 29 2013 20:39 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 20:32 algue wrote:
After the MLG, the ESET UK masters and the DH i don't think that zerg needs a buff atm. Zerg needs a small buff in SH burrow-reburrow time. MLG and DH was won by the best player in the world(Life) and 2nd best zerg(Leenock). They just look better than everyone else.
I hate how everyone used that tourney as a justification for terran nerfs. Just compare the zerg and terran line ups:
Terran had Flash, Innovation, MVP, Jjakji, Marineking, Polt, Taeja, Last, Thorzain.
Zerg had Suppy, Killer, Vibe, Goswser, Bly, Ret, Sen, Stephano, Leenock, Life.
Thats pretty close to the top 10 terran players and no where near close to the top 10 zerg.
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On April 29 2013 21:40 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 14:16 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 13:45 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 12:53 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 19:02 Rabiator wrote:On April 28 2013 16:41 FakeDeath wrote:On April 28 2013 16:34 tuho12345 wrote:On April 28 2013 16:33 FakeDeath wrote:On April 28 2013 16:29 tuho12345 wrote:On April 28 2013 12:19 houseurmusic wrote:
put bonus vs air on fungal growth. Solves zvz, zvp (mass air), and zvt (punish medivacs) lol, so how about mass mutas against Protoss??? Toss can't deal with mass mutas w/o phoenixes and phoenixes are paper plane Just open stargate. Phoenix got a passive +1 range buff. doesn't matter how you open, Zerg in late game can switch tech easily, watch LeeNock vs Nani...... Leenock had like 5 bases economy whereas Nani was on 3 bases. It was just a numbers game. Nani never did serious harassment to punish Leenock barring one warp prism harass. Whereas Leenock was putting heavy pressure on Nani WHILE expanding his economy and taking more bases. The muta switch only came way later after Leenock traded with Nani and reducing his archons count and after his phoenix was taken out by hydra. Leenock just keep on trading with Nani until he was starved out. That tech switch was smart. Switching back and forth between hydra/ultra/muta. That is the power of zerg. Using that game to whine about mass muta being OP is silly. Kinda "proves" what I have said for some time now ... there is too much production capacity (and economy) in SC2 and being able to tech switch this fast is bad design. Most of the times it doesnt have this big of an impact, but it "forces" the "don't let him get there" strategy on you and if someone seriously defends against harrassment (because he is ahead in economy) you simply can't do anything against it anymore. Well played by both players (under the circumstances), but there was nothing Naniwa himself could do to "correct" the mistake of not keeping the Zerg economy down from the get go. He would have needed a mistake of Leenock to win, but that should never be part of the game design. On April 28 2013 17:56 Teoita wrote:
This is different from WoL where a 4base Protoss would already have storm, blink and enough economy to invest in cannons and hold the mutas easily. 1-2 cannons won't scare 40 Mutalisks away and only a few pros ever build cannons anyways ... until they know they are facing something drop / harrass heavy. The problem is the "throw away an entire army and remake it in one round" issue of SC2 ... stockpiling larvae is bad (as is a crapton of ready Warp Gates to warp in at the front). so the issue is the macro mechanics not the units according to you? Exactly ... just look at the Infestor ... if you only had the ability to macro up 2-3 of them they would not be as problematic as 25-30 of them. Same as for the Mutalisks ... getting 40 in one minute or so is simply too much. Basing the game around a strong economy and production capability is the wrong choice, because then "keeping your units alive" is not important. Skills like microing your units defensively (blinking Stalkers, burrowing Zerg units, dropship pickups of big units like Colossi or Immortals or Thors) are used far too rarely and mostly when the numbers are SMALL. This is a loss for the viewers and the players, because the games are dull and the players with higher skill capability are overpowered by those with the better economy planning. At the core of it all is the movement and unit selection mechanic too, because 20+ Roaches/Stalkers/MM can easily one-shot any building in a base. That is not exciting because it is over far too fast and the excitement only comes when you have only 3-4 Zealots hitting a Hatchery while being nibbled at by some Zerglings / Drones and the hit points of the building get low; thats when it is exciting and not when you have 3 Medivacs full of bio dropping into a base and then going on a rampage there without regard of their own lives (because they know they will be replaced anyways). LESS is MORE. hmm well there is the counter argument that if i can make 40 mutas there was a mistake that was made by the other player at some point in the game . though that said i understand the issue with larva i am an upper mid master zerg sometimes in the late game i feel almost invincible . That is not even a counter argument but a piss poor excuse to cover imbalance. We had that the last 8 months of WoL with BL/infestor/spine and it sucked. I can't speak for everyone but I don't think many want to play a game if those in charge of balance are fine with things being that way. I was sick of 3 base allin pre hive timings in Wol or two base allins to maintain a good winrate. There was usually never a point to taking a fourth and going for the macro game.
So you are saying without a doubt zerg is imbalanced ? Not that maybe they are good players and win ? There are some players i play against i feel I can expand without even worrying while others it feels hard to even breathe. The game is still new enough that imbalance shouldn't even be a word used right now .
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So many oppinions. It is a good idea to try to make unbiased comments.
I believe Zerg needs a buff because I lose to Zerg way more than any other race. But I do not believe I represent the best example of relevant players. Only in master.
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For Spore Change: I agree, something had to be done for ZvZ, Muta wars being the end all strategy all the time got boring very fast, ground based Zerg should at least be able to compete and the new spores should at least help stabilize/cover your bases with hydra/infestor support and open up the match-up a bit.
For the burrow change: again I agree, Zerg idealy want to delay gas as much as possible to focus on drones, expansion and queen production, researching burrow requires gas and time the hatchery could have spent building a queen and atm the cost of burrow outweighs the benefits, reduction in time/cost should balance this more.
For the Oracle Change, I don't know; Oracles are expensive and all or nothing; they either kill 10+ workers or they're halted by a missile turret. They are already quite fast and often proxied so a move speed boost won't help much. If I had to buff the Oracle someway I would increase the shield health to allow for better poke harass even if detered by anti-air defense OR reduce the gas cost of the oracle so that the protoss investment into the success of a stargate and 2 oracles does not overly screw his tech.
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On April 30 2013 04:11 llIH wrote:
So many oppinions. It is a good idea to try to make unbiased comments.
I believe Zerg needs a buff because I lose to Zerg way more than any other race. But I do not believe I represent the best example of relevant players. Only in master.
what race do you play that you lose to zerg a lot?
I think zerg is in decent shape but i do agree that they overnerfed the infestor. It is barely even used anymore and i dont like that because the infestor is such a cool unit. Also, zerg is a race that is a little more APM/micro/skill intensive in that we have 2 pure casters with no attack at all + the creep spread + the injects + etc so idk... something to think about.
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On April 30 2013 04:29 Empedocles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:11 llIH wrote:
So many oppinions. It is a good idea to try to make unbiased comments.
I believe Zerg needs a buff because I lose to Zerg way more than any other race. But I do not believe I represent the best example of relevant players. Only in master. what race do you play that you lose to zerg a lot? I think zerg is in decent shape but i do agree that they overnerfed the infestor. It is barely even used anymore and i dont like that because the infestor is such a cool unit. Also, zerg is a race that is a little more APM/micro/skill intensive in that we have 2 pure casters with no attack at all + the creep spread + the injects + etc so idk... something to think about.
i would agree that as a zerg player in masters zerg rewards apm a bit better than the other races. i dont think it requires more skill then the other races , just a different skill set . Lots of your mechanics are based around multitasking , while your production is more centralized . whereas a terrans production is multitasking based and their mechanics are more ridged.
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I think zerg is in decent shape but i do agree that they overnerfed the infestor. It is barely even used anymore and i dont like that because the infestor is such a cool unit. Also, zerg is a race that is a little more APM/micro/skill intensive in that we have 2 pure casters with no attack at all + the creep spread + the injects + etc so idk... something to think about.
Euhm I think it is really debatable if zerg is the race that requires most micro/skill. There are enough examples where both toss and terran require way more. And I still expect the zerg to someday realise that fungal is still very good, and really effective against widow mines, especially if you can fungal them before they burrow.
On April 30 2013 04:11 llIH wrote:
So many oppinions. It is a good idea to try to make unbiased comments.
I believe Zerg needs a buff because I lose to Zerg way more than any other race. But I do not believe I represent the best example of relevant players. Only in master.
I assume you mean nerf? Since it doesn't make sense to buff a race that you lose most to.
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Swarm Hosts are pretty mediocre... I can't recall a top zerg winning a series with them. It's not that they are bad... its just that there are other more appealing and less risky options.
They seem like the kind of unit you have to totally commit to to make them work. Building 4-6 hosts is useless... you have to build 16-20. And if you commit to them in that way it becomes almost impossible to pin down a more mobile army.
Something needs to be done to change they way they work so they a more viable alternative to muta/ling or roach/hydra.
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On April 30 2013 04:39 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 04:29 Empedocles wrote:On April 30 2013 04:11 llIH wrote:
So many oppinions. It is a good idea to try to make unbiased comments.
I believe Zerg needs a buff because I lose to Zerg way more than any other race. But I do not believe I represent the best example of relevant players. Only in master. what race do you play that you lose to zerg a lot? I think zerg is in decent shape but i do agree that they overnerfed the infestor. It is barely even used anymore and i dont like that because the infestor is such a cool unit. Also, zerg is a race that is a little more APM/micro/skill intensive in that we have 2 pure casters with no attack at all + the creep spread + the injects + etc so idk... something to think about. i would agree that as a zerg player in masters zerg rewards apm a bit better than the other races. i dont think it requires more skill then the other races , just a different skill set . Lots of your mechanics are based around multitasking , while your production is more centralized . whereas a terrans production is multitasking based and their mechanics are more ridged.
I agree i think he put what i was thinking into a little better wording.
As for the SH, i agree also that the unit is not quite where we would want it to be. I think it can be a very powerful unit but it can also be very risky in that you need a lot of them to work first and second they can become easily overrun at times and can be killed quite quickly and then a lot of supply and resources just went down the drain. Myself, i do like to use them, mostly in ZvP to contain, with hydra and creep spread support to pressure the tosses 3rd. The only problem is when the toss gets enough to break the contain and push you back, if you dont react quickly enough and he snipes a couple SH's with his colosus you are gonna be in big trouble so you have to be careful of that. Also make sure to keep some roaches at home to defend against WP harrass cuz the SH's will never get back home in time. I havent really used the SH against mech too much yet. I have mostly been giong roach/hydra/viper into ultra with decent success. Might try to encorporate the SH in the midgame there, not sure yet.
edit: also i dont know what they were saying earlier in this post about how SH are super strong in ZvZ (second only to muta) that has not been my experience, i have been able to crush SH in ZvZ with just roach/hydra/overseer (all with speed upgrades)...
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EPT
