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On April 29 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough). I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them. but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta. Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine.
there should be many ways to play a matchup , i personally love muta on muta but being able to do something else is nice too. you are advocating only one way to play a mirror , am i correct in that ?
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On April 29 2013 16:18 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough). I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them. but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta. Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine. there should be many ways to play a matchup , i personally love muta on muta but being able to do something else is nice too. you are advocating only one way to play a mirror , am i correct in that ?
You are correct, but its only because Swarmhost are too strong in ZvZ. They are atm not viable only because muta are better.
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On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be...  no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war.
I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could.
And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass
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On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass
Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ.
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On April 29 2013 16:20 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:
[quote]
Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly.
It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle.
Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough). I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them. but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta. Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine. there should be many ways to play a matchup , i personally love muta on muta but being able to do something else is nice too. you are advocating only one way to play a mirror , am i correct in that ? You are correct, but its only because Swarmhost are too strong in ZvZ. They are atm not viable only because muta are better.
I think they should allow infestors to be viable again, they just need to tweak it , keep the damage bring back insta cast make a slow so mutas are also viable , fungal can be used in conjunction with hydras with the slow you can keep muta count's down so they don't snowball.
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On April 29 2013 16:24 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ.
Mutas , I think you are disregarding how expensive that army is and also the fact that you have nothing that shoots up lol. I can literally go pure broodlord corrupter and kill your army like that .
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On April 29 2013 16:24 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ.
Well, assuming you can reach that composition - which I doubt you can with how costefficient roaches are in the midgame... (just think about WoL... we saw one single GSL game end in Broodlord/Infestor wars and it was in the last ever WoL series that they mastered ZvZ to that extend)
Hydra/Swarm Host/Viper? You pull the BLs and Infestors and win the Host vs Host/Hydra war?
Corruptor/BL/Viper - you pull his Broodlords and Corruptors and targetfire the Swarmhosts.
Really, with the Viper in the picture and no effective pullprevention like ghosts, vikings, tempest or Templar in ZvZ, I believe that progames will never devolve into "perfect composition" battles. At some point during the transitionphase Vipers will just start to pull out the expensive techunits one by one. (and pull each other, which is hilarious  )
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On April 29 2013 16:35 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:24 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ. Mutas , I think you are disregarding how expensive that army is and also the fact that you have nothing that shoots up lol. I can literally go pure broodlord corrupter and kill your army like that .
BL/Corruptor could maybe beat that yeah. But well, What a game that'd be : free units everywhere.
I dont really like the idea of the insta-cast fungle. It's not exciting.
IMO, the current state of fungle is nice, it just needs to do more damages to muta / be easier to tech to infestors (= buff spores).
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On April 29 2013 16:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:24 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ. Well, assuming you can reach that composition - which I doubt you can with how costefficient roaches are in the midgame... (just think about WoL... we saw one single GSL game end in Broodlord/Infestor wars and it was in the last ever WoL series that they mastered ZvZ to that extend) Hydra/Swarm Host/Viper? You pull the BLs and Infestors and win the Host vs Host/Hydra war? Corruptor/BL/Viper - you pull his Broodlords and Corruptors and targetfire the Swarmhosts. Really, with the Viper in the picture and no effective pullprevention like ghosts, vikings, tempest or Templar in ZvZ, I believe that progames will never devolve into "perfect composition" battles. At some point during the transitionphase Vipers will just start to pull out the expensive techunits one by one. (and pull each other, which is hilarious )
Or instead of pulling you just use blinding cloud and locusts are rendered useless . I like the viper thought though .
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On April 29 2013 16:41 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:35 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:24 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ. Mutas , I think you are disregarding how expensive that army is and also the fact that you have nothing thoat shoots up lol. I can literally go pure broodlord corrupter and kill your army like that . BL/Corruptor could maybe beat that yeah. But well, What a game that'd be : free units everywhere. I dont really like the idea of the insta-cast fungle. It's not exciting. IMO, the current state of fungle is nice, it just needs to do more damages to muta / be easier to tech to infestors (= buff spores).
Well what else would there be to combat air units with zerg , I personally don't have problems with the new fungal from years of Warcraft 3 and dota , but for lots of players it's hard to hit that flock of mutas and if the muta player splits his units it makes it even worse for the infestor player . Since if he misses fungal the he loses all those infestors.
Since we are on the topic of SH , I actually feel they are broken ,since you cannot trade vs free units at all. Played a 35 min long game vs terran on newkirk half map scenario. Used swarm hosts to counter mech , units lost for me equalled about 9k his was over 30k he had tanks widow mines he tried banshees and Vikings dropping on them but the issue was that the units shoot faster than a hydra and do equal damage and are free .
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On April 29 2013 16:57 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:41 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:35 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:24 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ. Mutas , I think you are disregarding how expensive that army is and also the fact that you have nothing thoat shoots up lol. I can literally go pure broodlord corrupter and kill your army like that . BL/Corruptor could maybe beat that yeah. But well, What a game that'd be : free units everywhere. I dont really like the idea of the insta-cast fungle. It's not exciting. IMO, the current state of fungle is nice, it just needs to do more damages to muta / be easier to tech to infestors (= buff spores). Well what else would there be to combat air units with zerg , I personally don't have problems with the new fungal from years of Warcraft 3 and dota , but for lots of players it's hard to hit that flock of mutas and if the muta player splits his units it makes it even worse for the infestor player . Since if he misses fungal the he loses all those infestors. Since we are on the topic of SH , I actually feel they are broken ,since you cannot trade vs free units at all. Played a 35 min long game vs terran on newkirk half map scenario. Used swarm hosts to counter mech , units lost for me equalled about 9k his was over 30k he had tanks widow mines he tried banshees and Vikings dropping on them but the issue was that the units shoot faster than a hydra and do equal damage and are free .
Mech players are starting to figure it out. But they should NEVER trade against locust. It's like taking free siege tank fire.
SH player has to force trading with its locust. The other player shouldnt trade, and should attack where the locusts are not / flank.
But it's hard to do for the mechplayer i guess.
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On April 29 2013 16:57 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:41 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:35 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:24 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ. Mutas , I think you are disregarding how expensive that army is and also the fact that you have nothing thoat shoots up lol. I can literally go pure broodlord corrupter and kill your army like that . BL/Corruptor could maybe beat that yeah. But well, What a game that'd be : free units everywhere. I dont really like the idea of the insta-cast fungle. It's not exciting. IMO, the current state of fungle is nice, it just needs to do more damages to muta / be easier to tech to infestors (= buff spores). Well what else would there be to combat air units with zerg , I personally don't have problems with the new fungal from years of Warcraft 3 and dota , but for lots of players it's hard to hit that flock of mutas and if the muta player splits his units it makes it even worse for the infestor player . Since if he misses fungal the he loses all those infestors. Since we are on the topic of SH , I actually feel they are broken ,since you cannot trade vs free units at all. Played a 35 min long game vs terran on newkirk half map scenario. Used swarm hosts to counter mech , units lost for me equalled about 9k his was over 30k he had tanks widow mines he tried banshees and Vikings dropping on them but the issue was that the units shoot faster than a hydra and do equal damage and are free .
Well, I think that Mech isn't playable because of Vipers and especially the Viper/Swarm Host combination. But if it is "only" swarm hosts you are facing the way to go is to build more tanks and just ignore them (lose a few hellbats in the process). Meanwhile you go hellion harass and drop hellbats everywhere and kill him that way.
And when he moves his army home to defend, you can amove the swarm hosts, so he should be forced to go home with them as well and then you are free to push.
But yeah, if a swarm host player gets to siege you for a long time without you doing damage to him and he goes into Vipers it's just checkmate imo.
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On April 29 2013 17:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:57 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:41 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:35 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:24 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ. Mutas , I think you are disregarding how expensive that army is and also the fact that you have nothing thoat shoots up lol. I can literally go pure broodlord corrupter and kill your army like that . BL/Corruptor could maybe beat that yeah. But well, What a game that'd be : free units everywhere. I dont really like the idea of the insta-cast fungle. It's not exciting. IMO, the current state of fungle is nice, it just needs to do more damages to muta / be easier to tech to infestors (= buff spores). Well what else would there be to combat air units with zerg , I personally don't have problems with the new fungal from years of Warcraft 3 and dota , but for lots of players it's hard to hit that flock of mutas and if the muta player splits his units it makes it even worse for the infestor player . Since if he misses fungal the he loses all those infestors. Since we are on the topic of SH , I actually feel they are broken ,since you cannot trade vs free units at all. Played a 35 min long game vs terran on newkirk half map scenario. Used swarm hosts to counter mech , units lost for me equalled about 9k his was over 30k he had tanks widow mines he tried banshees and Vikings dropping on them but the issue was that the units shoot faster than a hydra and do equal damage and are free . Well, I think that Mech isn't playable because of Vipers and especially the Viper/Swarm Host combination. But if it is "only" swarm hosts you are facing the way to go is to build more tanks and just ignore them (lose a few hellbats in the process). Meanwhile you go hellion harass and drop hellbats everywhere and kill him that way. And when he moves his army home to defend, you can amove the swarm hosts, so he should be forced to go home with them as well and then you are free to push. But yeah, if a swarm host player gets to siege you for a long time without you doing damage to him and he goes into Vipers it's just checkmate imo.
Played a 54 min long game against a master korean terran on whirlwind , went mutas into swarm hosts he had 30 tanks at one point , sacked my mutas while I kept moving my swarm hosts around to keep him cornered , he eventually moved out super slowly using his tanks to push up . He couldn't drop be wise i just mass static defense behind at my bases since the swarm hosts never really die so you can spend alot of your money on making sure your income is safe . I then finally crashed through to his base using broodlord corrupter swarm host , he stopped it which was actually petty sick , he lost all of his tanks though and only had Vikings left , but I already tech switched to ultras/ ling / corrupter . I won because SH make free ground hydras that you need to make tanks to counter . You force the terran to react instead of you reacting to him so you have all this money and larva and tech behind it you can use
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On April 29 2013 17:28 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 17:05 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:57 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:41 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:35 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:24 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ. Mutas , I think you are disregarding how expensive that army is and also the fact that you have nothing thoat shoots up lol. I can literally go pure broodlord corrupter and kill your army like that . BL/Corruptor could maybe beat that yeah. But well, What a game that'd be : free units everywhere. I dont really like the idea of the insta-cast fungle. It's not exciting. IMO, the current state of fungle is nice, it just needs to do more damages to muta / be easier to tech to infestors (= buff spores). Well what else would there be to combat air units with zerg , I personally don't have problems with the new fungal from years of Warcraft 3 and dota , but for lots of players it's hard to hit that flock of mutas and if the muta player splits his units it makes it even worse for the infestor player . Since if he misses fungal the he loses all those infestors. Since we are on the topic of SH , I actually feel they are broken ,since you cannot trade vs free units at all. Played a 35 min long game vs terran on newkirk half map scenario. Used swarm hosts to counter mech , units lost for me equalled about 9k his was over 30k he had tanks widow mines he tried banshees and Vikings dropping on them but the issue was that the units shoot faster than a hydra and do equal damage and are free . Well, I think that Mech isn't playable because of Vipers and especially the Viper/Swarm Host combination. But if it is "only" swarm hosts you are facing the way to go is to build more tanks and just ignore them (lose a few hellbats in the process). Meanwhile you go hellion harass and drop hellbats everywhere and kill him that way. And when he moves his army home to defend, you can amove the swarm hosts, so he should be forced to go home with them as well and then you are free to push. But yeah, if a swarm host player gets to siege you for a long time without you doing damage to him and he goes into Vipers it's just checkmate imo. Played a 54 min long game against a master korean terran on whirlwind , went mutas into swarm hosts he had 30 tanks at one point , sacked my mutas while I kept moving my swarm hosts around to keep him cornered , he eventually moved out super slowly using his tanks to push up . He couldn't drop be wise i just mass static defense behind at my bases since the swarm hosts never really die so you can spend alot of your money on making sure your income is safe . I then finally crashed through to his base using broodlord corrupter swarm host , he stopped it which was actually petty sick , he lost all of his tanks though and only had Vikings left , but I already tech switched to ultras/ ling / corrupter . I won because SH make free ground hydras that you need to make tanks to counter . You force the terran to react instead of you reacting to him so you have all this money and larva and tech behind it you can use
do you have the replay? Because right now I can't really see how he couldn't push your swarm hosts with 30tanks.
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So, has these changes been applied to a test realm or are they still only words?
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Pushing with tanks against a stream of free units is very hard.
Mech vs swarmhosts mainly depends on if you are slightly ahead or slightly behind from my experience (although these days I rather play bio-mech). If you are slightly behind you enter a 10-15 minute long death-animation. You need to use all your income to make more siege tanks to limit the damage his locust can do, and you have no income left for anything else. You cannot just stop tank production for a minute to use your income for something else.
Now if you are slightly ahead you can do that. You can invest more in drops that are not that bad to lose. You can have a starport making ravens: which you can then use to kill the swarmhosts without much he can do about it. And then he is the one losing swarmhosts and he has to replace them or the mech army will roll over his remaining swarmhosts.
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On April 29 2013 17:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 17:28 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 17:05 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:57 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:41 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:35 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:24 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:21 Big J wrote:On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:
[quote]
no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war. I think ling/bling/muta into ultra shits all over that. And with the new fungal, you cannot shut down ling/bling as hard as you could. And anytime you rely on swarm hosts, you are very weak against runbys - be it roaches or ling/bling or mutalisk or infestor harass Turtling on 3-4 bases is not really hard if you go Swarmhost/Infestors/spines/spores. And then you are free to tech to BL. Nothing beats BL/infestors/SH in ZvZ. Mutas , I think you are disregarding how expensive that army is and also the fact that you have nothing thoat shoots up lol. I can literally go pure broodlord corrupter and kill your army like that . BL/Corruptor could maybe beat that yeah. But well, What a game that'd be : free units everywhere. I dont really like the idea of the insta-cast fungle. It's not exciting. IMO, the current state of fungle is nice, it just needs to do more damages to muta / be easier to tech to infestors (= buff spores). Well what else would there be to combat air units with zerg , I personally don't have problems with the new fungal from years of Warcraft 3 and dota , but for lots of players it's hard to hit that flock of mutas and if the muta player splits his units it makes it even worse for the infestor player . Since if he misses fungal the he loses all those infestors. Since we are on the topic of SH , I actually feel they are broken ,since you cannot trade vs free units at all. Played a 35 min long game vs terran on newkirk half map scenario. Used swarm hosts to counter mech , units lost for me equalled about 9k his was over 30k he had tanks widow mines he tried banshees and Vikings dropping on them but the issue was that the units shoot faster than a hydra and do equal damage and are free . Well, I think that Mech isn't playable because of Vipers and especially the Viper/Swarm Host combination. But if it is "only" swarm hosts you are facing the way to go is to build more tanks and just ignore them (lose a few hellbats in the process). Meanwhile you go hellion harass and drop hellbats everywhere and kill him that way. And when he moves his army home to defend, you can amove the swarm hosts, so he should be forced to go home with them as well and then you are free to push. But yeah, if a swarm host player gets to siege you for a long time without you doing damage to him and he goes into Vipers it's just checkmate imo. Played a 54 min long game against a master korean terran on whirlwind , went mutas into swarm hosts he had 30 tanks at one point , sacked my mutas while I kept moving my swarm hosts around to keep him cornered , he eventually moved out super slowly using his tanks to push up . He couldn't drop be wise i just mass static defense behind at my bases since the swarm hosts never really die so you can spend alot of your money on making sure your income is safe . I then finally crashed through to his base using broodlord corrupter swarm host , he stopped it which was actually petty sick , he lost all of his tanks though and only had Vikings left , but I already tech switched to ultras/ ling / corrupter . I won because SH make free ground hydras that you need to make tanks to counter . You force the terran to react instead of you reacting to him so you have all this money and larva and tech behind it you can use do you have the replay? Because right now I can't really see how he couldn't push your swarm hosts with 30tanks.
Oh he did push , but I was pressuring his bases i has 30 swarm hosts with muta , he couldn't leave to far because he didnt have enough AA without his turrets to do very much and he needed those tanks so he didnt die to the locusts .
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On April 29 2013 16:30 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:20 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon.
So their tools are only unit changes with stats.
I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll:
buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough). I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them. but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta. Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine. there should be many ways to play a matchup , i personally love muta on muta but being able to do something else is nice too. you are advocating only one way to play a mirror , am i correct in that ? You are correct, but its only because Swarmhost are too strong in ZvZ. They are atm not viable only because muta are better. I think they should allow infestors to be viable again, they just need to tweak it , keep the damage bring back insta cast make a slow so mutas are also viable , fungal can be used in conjunction with hydras with the slow you can keep muta count's down so they don't snowball.
There is only one way to "tweak" the Infestor and make it viable without making it overpowered again:
Step 1: Fungal is instacast again
Step 2: Infested Terran is removed from the game and replaced with something different ... simply nerfing it would push the bar for the "critical number" a bit further away, but it wont remove it.
You NEED TO remove the Infested Terran to prevent people from reaching the critical number. Being able to spawn up to eight supply worth of Marines for a two supply unit is not a good concept.
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On April 29 2013 18:52 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:30 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:20 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:
[quote]
the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough). I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them. but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta. Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine. there should be many ways to play a matchup , i personally love muta on muta but being able to do something else is nice too. you are advocating only one way to play a mirror , am i correct in that ? You are correct, but its only because Swarmhost are too strong in ZvZ. They are atm not viable only because muta are better. I think they should allow infestors to be viable again, they just need to tweak it , keep the damage bring back insta cast make a slow so mutas are also viable , fungal can be used in conjunction with hydras with the slow you can keep muta count's down so they don't snowball. There is only one way to "tweak" the Infestor and make it viable without making it overpowered again: Step 1: Fungal is instacast again Step 2: Infested Terran is removed from the game and replaced with something different ... simply nerfing it would push the bar for the "critical number" a bit further away, but it wont remove it. You NEED TO remove the Infested Terran to prevent people from reaching the critical number. Being able to spawn up to eight supply worth of Marines for a two supply unit is not a good concept.
Ah see but the issue with you talking about the infested terran , is the fact that it costs energy would I rather have a fungal ? The IT's are good because they don't scale as well when the game goes(no upgrades) on they are slow and the eggs have been changed . Fungal is the problem with ZvZ now , the missile makes it hard to hit a fast moving unit like the mutualisk , buddy needs to be standing still for you to hit him unless you have good aim.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On April 29 2013 16:30 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:20 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 16:12 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:
[quote]
I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon.
So their tools are only unit changes with stats.
I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll:
buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough). I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them. but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta. Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine. there should be many ways to play a matchup , i personally love muta on muta but being able to do something else is nice too. you are advocating only one way to play a mirror , am i correct in that ? You are correct, but its only because Swarmhost are too strong in ZvZ. They are atm not viable only because muta are better. I think they should allow infestors to be viable again, they just need to tweak it , keep the damage bring back insta cast make a slow so mutas are also viable , fungal can be used in conjunction with hydras with the slow you can keep muta count's down so they don't snowball.
Infestors are viable now. Before they were far too viable as they were a support casting unit which cost for cost beat every single unit in the game. There's a reason why armies in WoL were X, Infestor. The infestor worked so well with everything there was no reason to build anything else.
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EPT
