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On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups
the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable .
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On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable .
that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo.
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On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo.
would you consider the hydralisk reworked ?
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Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable.
We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... 
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I dont know - balance seems pretty good atm.. i want to give it more time.
biggest surprice is that medivacs arent the main concern lol
EDIT: if something is done to nerf mutas stat-wise to improve zvz . TvZ will be in need of a rebalance aswell - since mutas are pretty much THE way to deal with drops
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If they buff oracle speed they REALLY need to reduce the research time on Blink. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure PvProleague will be all Stargate vs Stargate. :/
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On April 29 2013 15:00 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. would you consider the hydralisk reworked ?
My idea is that:
WoL had no other units reworked that was as major as infestors did, it was almost a role change for the unit.
Other nerf/buff was simply a change in stats and not a complete change in its role. (other than ghost snipe nerf maybe)
The new hots changes like hydras, muta etc are all taken in account of the new units and other units change. So yes, they were reworked for Hots, but they are NOT reworked in Hots. I don't think we will be seeing any of these role changing level of change so soon.
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Italy12246 Posts
On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo.
The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough).
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On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough).
I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please.
So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved.
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On April 29 2013 15:18 megapants wrote:
If they buff oracle speed they REALLY need to reduce the research time on Blink. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure PvProleague will be all Stargate vs Stargate. :/
No thanks, blink all-ins are plenty strong as they are
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
it'd be Swarmhost war.
No, it wont. Banelings can counter Locusts and give you time to reach swarm hosts
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On April 29 2013 15:58 Existor wrote:No, it wont. Banelings can counter Locusts and give you time to reach swarm hosts
Back in the beta days, i played infestors/swarmhosts/spines/spores. Never lost against roach/hydra/bane.
Its just too cost effective.
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On April 29 2013 15:32 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 15:00 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. would you consider the hydralisk reworked ? My idea is that: WoL had no other units reworked that was as major as infestors did, it was almost a role change for the unit. Other nerf/buff was simply a change in stats and not a complete change in its role. (other than ghost snipe nerf maybe) The new hots changes like hydras, muta etc are all taken in account of the new units and other units change. So yes, they were reworked for Hots, but they are NOT reworked in Hots. I don't think we will be seeing any of these role changing level of change so soon.
okay but you realize that the infestor was initially changed because of the playstyle of protoss was brutal vs. zerg players and we needed something to counter that . it just turns out that other tweaks to the game such as nerfs to terran and other buffs caused the major problems that we saw with the infestor . i hope we dont see something like this happen in hots, units should always have a role to play but i don't seem problems with laser wars in pvp or muta in zvz the reason these matchups are so odd is how the macro works there are also ideal unit comps to combat your own race . I really think the infestor is the root of the problem in the matchup. it needs to be changed make fungal easier to use vs mutas by making it insta cast but make the "root" a slow instead so you can hit mutas but it wont be the end for the muta player if he can escape , this will fix the infestor in other matchups to.
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On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough).
Blizzards official comment was that it was done because of the infestor nerfs to make Lair tech units better afaik.
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On April 29 2013 15:58 Existor wrote:No, it wont. Banelings can counter Locusts and give you time to reach swarm hosts
absolutely not you are advocating trading gas for absolutely nothing , the truth is you cannot trade vs free units , period . if i have 60 locusts kill even one of your banelings i traded efficiently there and you did not .
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On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be...
no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up
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On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up
Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit.
And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war.
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On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough). I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved.
there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them.
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On April 29 2013 16:09 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 15:36 Insoleet wrote:On April 29 2013 15:32 Teoita wrote:On April 29 2013 14:50 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 14:47 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 14:29 ETisME wrote:On April 29 2013 13:55 Rabiator wrote:On April 29 2013 13:46 ETisME wrote:
I feel the poll is a bit too simple so I made this one which should shred light more onto people's opinion on the ZvZ change: Buffs are the way in which Blizzard seems to try and fix things, but they are not. They need to look at what they changed and then adjust the power level of that accordingly. It does not make sense to have a game achieve balance (which I dont think it did in WoL) and then add new stuff that is more powerful than the old stuff. If you do that you have to rebalance everything else too instead of just the new things, so every boost to an old unit has to be balanced out by a negative thing or it will require countless adjustments of the other units in the game in a never ending cycle. Buffs make the game faster and more "explosive" and this is a bad thing, because in the end we will have a game that is only playable by professionals but not by "Joe Average". Personally I think it has gone too far already ... I don't think there will be any unit rework at a level like what we had for infestors fungal change in WoL anytime soon. So their tools are only unit changes with stats. I should also have been a bit more clear in the poll: buff/nerf will also affect other matchups the muta buff allowed them to be viable in the matchup again maybe there is something we can do but i dont feel buffs should be used outside of allowing a unit to be viable . that muta buff was given due to changes and inclusion of the new hots units. there were no other major reworked unit other than infestors imo. The muta buff was caused by mines dealing AA damage, and it did not take into the account the effect it would have in the other two matchups (or didn't do it well enough). I think it's fine that the ZvZ has become a muta war. Because, if it had to be a ground war like in WoL, it'd be Swarmhost war. And these free units fights are so silly... No please. So the buff of muta saved us from ZvZ being a free units war, its ok. Anyway, if teching to infestors was less risky, muta war would be more exiting : fungle + muta fights could be really fun to watch. And there would be a lot of micro involved. there would never be a swarm host war in zvz even if mutas were nerfed . if you go swarm hosts then i go mutas and you cant defend with them.
but infestors are in the same techpath as swarmhost. If i could just go infestation pit every game, swarmhost would beat roach/hydra, infestors would beat muta.
Atm infestation pit first is not viable, and its fine.
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On April 29 2013 16:06 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 16:04 Shakattak wrote:On April 29 2013 15:09 Insoleet wrote:Muta are fine. I just think they should have less HP now that they regen that fast. 90 HP mutalisks would make the players very cautious with them, and in a head to head fight with stalkers, they'd die. Storms would hit them way harder, and only 3 fungles would be needed instead of 4. Which means that adding infestors to the muta ball would be way more viable. We shouldnt want ZvZ to stop being muta war. Because the more powerful unit on ground is the swarmhost, we would have SH war instead of muta war. And just imagine the nightmare it'd be... no because mutas would still exist and locusts cant shoot up Spores + infestors + weakened muta = SH cant be hit. And I was saying, people want muta wars to stop : i say we shouldnt want that. Because no muta war = Swarmhost war.
then just change the infestor like i have already said so its a slow and bring back instacast. so it is not a immediate loss if you do get fungaled if its a slow it awards the muta player for splitting their units while it also deters just mass muta wars while allowing you to keep muta counts low allowing you to go hydras if you so desire .
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EPT
