EPTBlizzard's Potential Balance Test Map Changes - Page 55
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
On May 01 2013 15:16 Glorfindel! wrote: Just want to point out the effects in TvT of a Tank Buff... 1 shotting marines --> TvT mech only, no more bio mech or bio = bad and really boring to watch. Sorry but IMO mech is just as boring as the toss/zerg deathball to watch. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 01 2013 05:02 aksfjh wrote: And it would be a lot easier and require less skill for the opponent to stop the drop. You're not making the game require more skill, you're shifting the skill requirement from the other player to the Terran. Shouldn't a larger portion of the skill requirement be on the multi-tasking attacker then the defender? Right now it's not all that difficult to load up 4-5 drops and hit 5 different locations at once. Sure, you might not be able to micro them, but you can definitely boost your medivacs around without difficulty. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 01 2013 06:25 Cyro wrote: First point, you're only nerfing zealots.. Either it's nerfed below 23 or 20 damage so that workers/marines die in 2 hits, or there's no change to workers or to lings, basically nothing on light ground that really matters changes aside from hellbat vs zealot. I guess you could make the argument against undamaged combat shielded marines, but really, hellbats are usually acompanied by marines or tanks so small amounts of damage will already be splashed onto or smart fired onto their targets before/after, lower damage always hurts, but small nerfs in that area wouldn't really hurt the unit so much small nerf to mines AOE damage? It does 40 damage, allowing it to oneshot non-terran workers before upgrades and oneshot lings Either you take away its one-shot-ability on certain units, or you dont. One is a massive, potentially unit destroying nerf, the other one is almost irrelevant. If there's tweaking on the widow mine, it will most likely be towards Build time, Cost, Movement speed, cooldown, burrow time, etc. Upgrades don't apply to widow mine attacks: their attack is a spell and ignores armor, and doesn't get stronger from +weapons upgrades. It'll always one shot non terran workers. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
On May 01 2013 15:32 Whitewing wrote: Shouldn't a larger portion of the skill requirement be on the multi-tasking attacker then the defender? Right now it's not all that difficult to load up 4-5 drops and hit 5 different locations at once. Sure, you might not be able to micro them, but you can definitely boost your medivacs around without difficulty. If defending would be easy noone would bother to drop anymore like at the end of wol. Yes lets go back to massive timing pushes and NR20 games with deathball vs deathball. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 01 2013 15:34 PanzerElite wrote: If defending would be easy noone would bother to drop anymore like at the end of wol. Yes lets go back to massive timing pushes and NR20 games with deathball vs deathball. If the game is too easy for the attacker / harrasser though it becomes totally random in the results and the one who attacks first wins ... not the one with greater skill. The thing is that in order to be able to use skill you need time and in SC2 the battles are over too fast and super fast and easy harrassment requires no skill if the units are made ever faster and safer. That is not a good path to go for designing the game IMO. In Broodwar there was a decisive defenders advantage and the attacker had to work harder to get through ... and yet there was no such thing as timing pushes. So your insinuation of there only being one other (supposedly bad) option is completely narrow minded. The problem really is the game design of SC2, which requires harrassment to prevent Zerg from covering the map with bases and then overwhelming Protoss or Terran with waves of units. That is really bad and the game should be much more about the skill of using and planning the use of units. An attacker needs to deserve to win and if this is made too easy and he didnt have to work for it then he doesnt really deserve it and just got it on a random chance by making the right click in the right millisecond. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On May 01 2013 15:32 Whitewing wrote: Shouldn't a larger portion of the skill requirement be on the multi-tasking attacker then the defender? Right now it's not all that difficult to load up 4-5 drops and hit 5 different locations at once. Sure, you might not be able to micro them, but you can definitely boost your medivacs around without difficulty. It also isn't hard to load 10 overlords with units and let them drop in random locations. I guess it is roughly as useful as dropping in 5 different locations with unmicro'd dropships, and boost has little relevance to that. It is also harder to dodge storms than to cast them. It is easier to nuke somewhere than finding out where you are being nuked. I can continue a long time like that. If it is harder to attack than defend, you just get NR20 since there is no point in attacking. If you want to be drop proof without having to invest skill in it, you can invest minerals in it: in the form of static defenses (something which btw are generally made way more by terran players than others). On May 01 2013 15:28 PanzerElite wrote: 1 shotting marines --> TvT mech only, no more bio mech or bio = bad and really boring to watch. Sorry but IMO mech is just as boring as the toss/zerg deathball to watch. A boost to tanks doesn't mean their damage needs to be doubled. And that also boosts their damage against hellbats, not just against marines. And aditionally with siege tanks you got all the splash ranges, so you can tweak quite a bit there. Honestly I don't think it would be bad for TvT to have a bit better tanks. If it was just TvT I would agree that tanks are pretty fine, but it isn't just TvT. But as random example (which btw I don't think is that a good idea, but it is an example), if you increase main damage of the siege tank while decreasing splash damage it will become more effective against toss without becoming better against zerg/terran. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 01 2013 15:28 PanzerElite wrote: 1 shotting marines --> TvT mech only, no more bio mech or bio = bad and really boring to watch. Sorry but IMO mech is just as boring as the toss/zerg deathball to watch. Only if the splash is strong enough to really destroy marines. Right now Tank vs Marine is: 35/17.5/8.75 depending on where it hits what if the damage was: 50/15/7.5 (or in particular 50+10to25 vs armored) that would boost the shock effect against all those beefy Protoss units/Ultralisks, while the effect versus those "mass unit techs" like roach/hydra/ling/bling and bio would stay the same. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
On May 01 2013 16:52 Big J wrote: Only if the splash is strong enough to really destroy marines. Right now Tank vs Marine is: 35/17.5/8.75 depending on where it hits what if the damage was: 50/15/7.5 (or in particular 50+10to25 vs armored) that would boost the shock effect against all those beefy Protoss units/Ultralisks, while the effect versus those "mass unit techs" like roach/hydra/ling/bling and bio would stay the same. Ok, that actually sounds a lot better. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 01 2013 16:52 Big J wrote: Only if the splash is strong enough to really destroy marines. Right now Tank vs Marine is: 35/17.5/8.75 depending on where it hits what if the damage was: 50/15/7.5 (or in particular 50+10to25 vs armored) that would boost the shock effect against all those beefy Protoss units/Ultralisks, while the effect versus those "mass unit techs" like roach/hydra/ling/bling and bio would stay the same. When looking at the damage of the Siege Tank you should also look at the RADIUS and you might see that they only affect roughly three closely clumped units in the primary radius. Increasing that radius would also be a way of making the tank better without letting it become too good at killing buildings. The primary radius is 0.4687 "matrices" ... which I hope is the same as 1 matric = 1 building square size. If that is the case the tank doesnt even cover one full square with the core radius of maximum damage and that is ridiculously low for games with tons of units and a slow rate of fire. Obviously this relies on my guesswork on the sizes being correct ... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 01 2013 15:32 Whitewing wrote: Shouldn't a larger portion of the skill requirement be on the multi-tasking attacker then the defender? Right now it's not all that difficult to load up 4-5 drops and hit 5 different locations at once. Sure, you might not be able to micro them, but you can definitely boost your medivacs around without difficulty. Show me an actual pro game in which Terran drops 5 different locations at once. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 01 2013 20:14 Rabiator wrote: When looking at the damage of the Siege Tank you should also look at the RADIUS and you might see that they only affect roughly three closely clumped units in the primary radius. Increasing that radius would also be a way of making the tank better without letting it become too good at killing buildings. The primary radius is 0.4687 "matrices" ... which I hope is the same as 1 matric = 1 building square size. If that is the case the tank doesnt even cover one full square with the core radius of maximum damage and that is ridiculously low for games with tons of units and a slow rate of fire. Obviously this relies on my guesswork on the sizes being correct ... yeah, and that's exactly what the tank doesn't need (and why PanzerElite and me are against plain damage buffs). That mostly affect the units the tank is already great against, while it's still measily 12dps vs archons makes any tankcommander pick up a gauss rifle instead of driving a tank into the battle. | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12056 Posts
On May 01 2013 15:28 PanzerElite wrote: 1 shotting marines --> TvT mech only, no more bio mech or bio = bad and really boring to watch. Sorry but IMO mech is just as boring as the toss/zerg deathball to watch. It's only boring now because Bio is so good against mech that if you ever split up you just lose everything. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 01 2013 23:32 Qikz wrote: It's only boring now because Bio is so good against mech that if you ever split up you just lose everything. For all I have seen from promatches, Mech is way more popular these days and the tankless MMM response from a bio opening is basically nonexistent. Not that Im sad about mass marine battles falling out of style, but I really cant see what you are talking about. Mech in TvT is more solid than it has ever been. | ||
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Dunmer
United Kingdom568 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On May 01 2013 23:30 archonOOid wrote: I think that corrupters should be immune to glaives so that mass muta gets owed by corruptors. My hope is that there will be a mix of muta/corruptor because mutas will still be better units aggressively but for actual fighting corruptors will be used in the air battles. If that happened it could open up for some hydras or land based play. Corruptors have 2 base armor. If you get +1 armor, they ARE effectively immune to glaives. This doesn't help the fact that they suck in virtually every other way. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12056 Posts
On May 01 2013 23:38 Big J wrote: For all I have seen from promatches, Mech is way more popular these days and the tankless MMM response from a bio opening is basically nonexistent. Not that Im sad about mass marine battles falling out of style, but I really cant see what you are talking about. Mech in TvT is more solid than it has ever been. I was just responding to that guy complaining about it. Tanks against bio are still at the point where you can't split too much or you get rolled over, that's what makes mech vs bio relatively boring in TvT as the mech player is forced to bunch quite close together. Mech vs Mech is incredible for positioning and spreading though, it''s awesome. | ||
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-VapidSlug-
United States108 Posts
On May 01 2013 23:30 archonOOid wrote: I think that corrupters should be immune to glaives so that mass muta gets owed by corruptors. My hope is that there will be a mix of muta/corruptor because mutas will still be better units aggressively but for actual fighting corruptors will be used in the air battles. If that happened it could open up for some hydras or land based play. I like where you are going with adjusting the corruptor. Considering the corruptor was a unit specifically mentioned by Blizzard as the perfect unit to change/remove (pre-HotS beta) I think it needs something. Honestly, I am wondering what it would be like if corruption was also a slowing ability. I am imagining some awesome muta harrass vs defensive corruptor play, where if the mutas become too aggressive a bunch of them get slowed and cannot retreat. It would even open up the potential for corruptors in ZvT. If only I had custom map skills (and friends) I would test things like this =[ | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
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