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On April 23 2013 11:20 Arceus wrote:It bugs me every time I see "skill" & "oracle" in the same line  Looks like Blizzard gives zero fuck about late game. Zerg's AA is a disaster, Toss' air abusing seems absurd, Mech is still very unsustainable, glass-cannon like
Blizzard doesn't want classical Mech in the game. Why do you think the Immortal exists? Why do you think they try all sorts of ridiculous crap like giving Battle Hellions a biological tag while avoiding the obvious issues? Why do you think that virtually every single new unit or ability showcased in the HotS teasers involved blowing up, yanking, cloning, rolling over, or otherwise nullifying Siege Tanks?
Their dislike for real Mech play is so intense that they were willing to give Terrans a unit that existed for the sole purpose of outranging and destroying Siege Tanks...but then reconsidered, because it would be too similar to a Siege Tank.
Blizzard wants "mech" units to support your bio army. We're never going to get viable, working mech play, unless David Kim is possessed by Kennegit or something...
On April 23 2013 11:33 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 11:23 sage_francis wrote:On April 23 2013 11:20 Usernameffs wrote:
I know how they can stop muta wars buff corruptors so they have the ability to bring down air units so ground units like roaches can attack them. my gosh... I think there is better ideas for corruptors but it can be one of them, web or slime that temporarily brings down air units. Corrupters only fight air but i like the idea if you loosing the air battle you can have your ground army help out. Lings and banelings in zvz
Flying Crypt Fiends that turn into Flying Meat Wagons?
Hire this man immediately!
On April 23 2013 11:33 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 10:59 Munk200 wrote:
Increasing the +bio to spores is not the correct answer to make the game better. Yes, it is true if you make spores do 50, 80, 100, or whatever high damage you want to vs bio, it will stop the muta vs muta in ZvZ. However it will also completely remove the option of a zerg making mutas in ZvZ.
If they just buffed the hydra, like everyone has asked them to do since the WoL beta, then zerg would actually have options, and not be forced into mutas, but they would still be an option.
On top of that, better hydras would make it so zerg could actually fight Air toss, and Air Terran armys. Do you think that defaulting their range to 6 and removing the upgrade would help to that end?
Did you know that a Hydralisk with its range upgrade, buffed to 90 HP, still loses in a 1v1 fight against a Queen?
It's impossible to accidentally overbuff this unit...anything is a good idea at this point.
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voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke.
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I'm glad they didn't mention nerfs. I'd rather them continue buffing stuff slowly before going at it with the nerf bat. WoL had the problem of too many patches with big changes, either as nerfs or buffs. Doing it slower and with smaller changes is the way to go~
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On April 23 2013 11:53 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 11:43 omnic wrote:On April 23 2013 11:33 forsooth wrote:On April 23 2013 10:59 Munk200 wrote:
Increasing the +bio to spores is not the correct answer to make the game better. Yes, it is true if you make spores do 50, 80, 100, or whatever high damage you want to vs bio, it will stop the muta vs muta in ZvZ. However it will also completely remove the option of a zerg making mutas in ZvZ.
If they just buffed the hydra, like everyone has asked them to do since the WoL beta, then zerg would actually have options, and not be forced into mutas, but they would still be an option.
On top of that, better hydras would make it so zerg could actually fight Air toss, and Air Terran armys. Do you think that defaulting their range to 6 and removing the upgrade would help to that end? I know you're asking for HIS opinion but I highly doubt that would make the difference. The reason why mutalisk in the majority of the games beats hydra play is because of multi pronged attacks and the mutalisk player getting a third first. You can't split up your hydralisks or else they will be overwhelmed by the mutalisks but if you keep all your hydralisks in one spot then zergling run by's or split muta harass (or both) will punish you for it heavily. Even if you try to turtle if you get a third the mutalisk player will get a 4th. Not to mention if you try a timing attack the mutalisk player can just morph a bunch of banelings and erase your hydralisks. None of these problems with hydralisk play will be fixed by starting with 6 range. Do hydras really fare that poorly against mutas, even with the high DPS they have and their superior range? The reason I'm curious about all this is that even though I don't play Zerg pretty much ever, I've been on the receiving end of and watched a lot of pros deal with some of that brute force roach/hydra midgame in TvZ that's gotten more popular since HotS came out, and it's quite a lot stronger than I anticipated it would be. If we can buff hydras in such a way that they can deal better with muta play then that's good, but making hydras significantly better could also create problems in TvZ. I just think it's too bad that there's no high level muta micro like there was in BW. Those muta/scourge fights were always cool. In SC2 it just seems like whoever has more mutas always wins because the only thing you can do is park your muta cloud on top of their muta cloud and wait for the outcome.
it's not "weak" but it's not strong enough to defend against mutalisk players because if you have 3 bases you'll have to spread out your hydralisks in 2 groups at least and mutalisks can pick them off here and there while their healing passive keeps the mutalisks from getting killed unless focused down 1 by 1. It's also problematic because lets say you have a group at your main and a group at your third and the zerg player attacks with his mutalisks and his zerglings at your third.
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On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke.
Storm? Hydras? Marines? Vikings? Corrupters (microed)?
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sounds all very reasonable. I'm just not sure if they really have a clue what to do to fix ZvZ.
I like that they don't nerf medivacs or mines.
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On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke.
The Wood League warriors are the first reveal themselves in these threads...
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It makes me so happy that the biggest issue in this game is a mirror matchup. Good job Blizz! And I think the problem is just a metagame thing, if you scout spire there are timings where the zerg just dies. It's like letting a protoss get 20 tempests (funday monday anyone?). Don't let it happen
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Exited for the oracle potential change, I think it has a lot of potential but is too easily countered for the investment, this could help it be more viable in the right hands in all matchups.
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On April 23 2013 12:01 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 11:59 nGBeast wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. Storm? Hydras? Marines? Vikings? Corrupters (microed)? How exactly do you micro corruptors in a way that will make them trade even remotely cost efficiently vs Voids Rays?
You can't, they were terrible against void rays even in WoL.
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On April 23 2013 12:01 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 11:59 nGBeast wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. Storm? Hydras? Marines? Vikings? Corrupters (microed)? How exactly do you micro corruptors in a way that will make them trade even remotely cost efficiently vs Voids Rays?
I dunno man i heard there's some mystery thing called stutter step :O
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On April 23 2013 12:03 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 12:01 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 nGBeast wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. Storm? Hydras? Marines? Vikings? Corrupters (microed)? How exactly do you micro corruptors in a way that will make them trade even remotely cost efficiently vs Voids Rays? I dunno man i heard there's some mystery thing called stutter step :O
You have to outrange something for kiting to be of any use.
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On April 23 2013 12:03 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 12:01 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 nGBeast wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. Storm? Hydras? Marines? Vikings? Corrupters (microed)? How exactly do you micro corruptors in a way that will make them trade even remotely cost efficiently vs Voids Rays? I dunno man i heard there's some mystery thing called stutter step :O
You have to outrange and/or outpace something for that to work. Also factor in that the VRs will continue to shoot at them while they move.
PS: Stutter step doesnt work with air units. At all.
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On April 23 2013 11:59 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. The Wood League warriors are the first reveal themselves in these threads...
Ironic because I am GM on every server, and Ive yet to find a way to kill a voidray army. Hydras and corrupters both get completely destroyed by voidrays. Aoe is the biggest issue with hydras being terrible vs them, and queen-spores is too immobile.
The only way I've found to beat a voidray army that is not pure static defense tempest turtle, is to damage their economy so bad that multiple remaxes eventually overpower the protoss.
If other skilled zergs have an army composition I am not using correctly please feel free to show me.
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On April 23 2013 12:04 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 12:03 GTPGlitch wrote:On April 23 2013 12:01 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 nGBeast wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. Storm? Hydras? Marines? Vikings? Corrupters (microed)? How exactly do you micro corruptors in a way that will make them trade even remotely cost efficiently vs Voids Rays? I dunno man i heard there's some mystery thing called stutter step :O You have to outrange something for kiting to be of any use.
Don't forget that voidrays can still attack while moving so you're not really negating any damage anyways
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Is it just me, or do other zergs enjoy zvz right now? i way prefer this style of play compared to ling/bane. I enjoy using mutas, i feel like the better player wins most of the time, and on a side note personally it kinda feels like bw zvz but better.
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Dont make the oracle faster please, JUST NO
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EPT
