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Please for the love of god do not buff the oracle speed. If they have the ability to keep up and kill runnings scv's / probes there will literally be no reason for any other opening. This will force Terrans even deeper into 1 base play PvT.
PLEASE LISTEN BLIZZARD, although everyone knows blizzard wont listen to anyone until its far too late and they've already taken every step towards destroying their game.
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On April 23 2013 13:12 TheIceMan86 wrote:
Please for the love of god do not buff the oracle speed. If they have the ability to keep up and kill runnings scv's / probes there will literally be no reason for any other opening. This will force Terrans even deeper into 1 base play PvT.
PLEASE LISTEN BLIZZARD, although everyone knows blizzard wont listen to anyone until its far too late and they've already taken every step towards destroying their game.
they are already capable of keeping up with workers...
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WigglingSquid
5194 Posts
On April 23 2013 09:32 Dr.Sin wrote:
ZvZ needs a fix because the muta wars are very strange and unpredictable. Going from something as volatile as ling/bling into muta races just doesn't seem like a good match up.
Oracle speed increase seems a little extreme. They're already pretty fast and can do a lot of damage. Making them a bit more useful in an army composition could be interesting and make them more than just a mineral harassment gimmick.
I like the idea of making burrow more accessible. Obviously mines will get fixed.
Strongly agree on the oracle.
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Wasn't the plus bio dmg already added with the idea of combating muta v muta? Not sure if additional damage will address it. Otherwise, I agree with Oracle and burrow changes.
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On April 23 2013 13:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 13:12 TheIceMan86 wrote:
Please for the love of god do not buff the oracle speed. If they have the ability to keep up and kill runnings scv's / probes there will literally be no reason for any other opening. This will force Terrans even deeper into 1 base play PvT.
PLEASE LISTEN BLIZZARD, although everyone knows blizzard wont listen to anyone until its far too late and they've already taken every step towards destroying their game. they are already capable of keeping up with workers...
If youre gonna quote my post and reply with a smartass comment that contributes nothing meaningful you can at least learn to read. I said KEEP UP WITH AND KILL. As it stands they cant chase down a line of scv's and constantly attack them. Get your facts straight or shut the fuck up.
User was warned for this post
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On April 23 2013 13:04 infKelsier wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 12:57 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 12:06 Msr wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. The Wood League warriors are the first reveal themselves in these threads... Ironic because I am GM on every server, and Ive yet to find a way to kill a voidray army. Hydras and corrupters both get completely destroyed by voidrays. Aoe is the biggest issue with hydras being terrible vs them, and queen-spores is too immobile. The only way I've found to beat a voidray army that is not pure static defense tempest turtle, is to damage their economy so bad that multiple remaxes eventually overpower the protoss. If other skilled zergs have an army composition I am not using correctly please feel free to show me. Oh, the irony is not lost on me here. You are suggesting that a Voidray army, which takes a lot of time and sacrifice to build, a unit that costs 4 supply, 250 minerals and 150 gas, is too hard to counter? You really can't think of a way to beat a specific build like that? As a GM, I'm sure it's obvious to you that the game is asymmetrically balanced and that when certain builds are allowed to be executed unhindered their power of advantage becomes greater. Scouting such a build is not so hard either since getting a sizable VR army quickly would show you more than 1 Stargate and a gradual build up takes time. There is a large window where the Protoss ground army is super weak and vulnerable to counter attack. You shouldn't expect to play vs. every build and strategy to the late game and have a viable way to win, something that is intended as part of the design. Queens start becoming really effective vs. VRs with carapace upgrade since every +1 armor reduces VR dps by 2, a Queen with +2 armor upgrade will reduce a VR's DPS on a queen from 10 to 6... which is the same as a sentry or at max upgrades from 16 to 10. Or better yet, 2 queens cost as much supply, 50 more minerals but no gas. Do the math, if you have 2:1 ratio of Queens to VR. You are gonna kill the VRs. And if the Protoss kills your queens with a ground switch its still in your favor because he lost a ton of gas and you only used minerals and Zerg ground > Protoss... You use a lot of words and it cleverly masks the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Cutting through the bullshit here is that apparently "mass queen is the answer to skytoss". Also the skytoss style is very turtley and it is very difficult to attack into it.
It's immobile and not very good when in small numbers, i.e, death ball formation, certainly there are maps which make this strat hard to deal with, AW comes to mind, but you don't just stupidly mass Queen. Since Skytoss is very supply heavy type of composition there is a weakness that can be exploited there with early and mid game timings. On bigger maps it's very viable to take a lot of bases since any significant push from the Protoss immediately opens him up for ling counter attacks. You won't clean the Protoss army up in one trade, but even if it take 2-3 waves the ultimate result favors the Zerg because the result will be very gas efficient trade for the Zerg.
One other issue here is that in most pro level games Skytoss isn't a prevalent strategy and it's not very often we see the MU unfold in such ways. It is no where near the level of how Inf/GGLord dominated the MU and as we can see the win rates between the races is quite even. I just don't see how this is a problem at the level where the game is being balanced. VRs are really powerful on the ladder, but at the pro level you don't really see them being massed all that often.
@ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On April 23 2013 13:22 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 13:04 infKelsier wrote:On April 23 2013 12:57 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 12:06 Msr wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. The Wood League warriors are the first reveal themselves in these threads... Ironic because I am GM on every server, and Ive yet to find a way to kill a voidray army. Hydras and corrupters both get completely destroyed by voidrays. Aoe is the biggest issue with hydras being terrible vs them, and queen-spores is too immobile. The only way I've found to beat a voidray army that is not pure static defense tempest turtle, is to damage their economy so bad that multiple remaxes eventually overpower the protoss. If other skilled zergs have an army composition I am not using correctly please feel free to show me. Oh, the irony is not lost on me here. You are suggesting that a Voidray army, which takes a lot of time and sacrifice to build, a unit that costs 4 supply, 250 minerals and 150 gas, is too hard to counter? You really can't think of a way to beat a specific build like that? As a GM, I'm sure it's obvious to you that the game is asymmetrically balanced and that when certain builds are allowed to be executed unhindered their power of advantage becomes greater. Scouting such a build is not so hard either since getting a sizable VR army quickly would show you more than 1 Stargate and a gradual build up takes time. There is a large window where the Protoss ground army is super weak and vulnerable to counter attack. You shouldn't expect to play vs. every build and strategy to the late game and have a viable way to win, something that is intended as part of the design. Queens start becoming really effective vs. VRs with carapace upgrade since every +1 armor reduces VR dps by 2, a Queen with +2 armor upgrade will reduce a VR's DPS on a queen from 10 to 6... which is the same as a sentry or at max upgrades from 16 to 10. Or better yet, 2 queens cost as much supply, 50 more minerals but no gas. Do the math, if you have 2:1 ratio of Queens to VR. You are gonna kill the VRs. And if the Protoss kills your queens with a ground switch its still in your favor because he lost a ton of gas and you only used minerals and Zerg ground > Protoss... You use a lot of words and it cleverly masks the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Cutting through the bullshit here is that apparently "mass queen is the answer to skytoss". Also the skytoss style is very turtley and it is very difficult to attack into it. It's immobile and not very good when in small numbers, i.e, death ball formation, certainly there are maps which make this strat hard to deal with, AW comes to mind, but you don't just stupidly mass Queen. Since Skytoss is very supply heavy type of composition there is a weakness that can be exploited there with early and mid game timings. On bigger maps it's very viable to take a lot of bases since any significant push from the Protoss immediately opens him up for ling counter attacks. You won't clean the Protoss army up in one trade, but even if it take 2-3 waves the ultimate result favors the Zerg because the result will be very gas efficient trade for the Zerg. One other issue here is that in most pro level games Skytoss isn't a prevalent strategy and it's not very often we see the MU unfold in such ways. It is no where near the level of how Inf/GGLord dominated the MU and as we can see the win rates between the races is quite even. I just don't see how this is a problem at the level where the game is being balanced. VRs are really powerful on the ladder, but at the pro level you don't really see them being massed all that often. @ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3
I think they posted the April win rates recently....might want to check your stat book on that one
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On April 23 2013 13:25 infKelsier wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 13:22 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 13:04 infKelsier wrote:On April 23 2013 12:57 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 12:06 Msr wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. The Wood League warriors are the first reveal themselves in these threads... Ironic because I am GM on every server, and Ive yet to find a way to kill a voidray army. Hydras and corrupters both get completely destroyed by voidrays. Aoe is the biggest issue with hydras being terrible vs them, and queen-spores is too immobile. The only way I've found to beat a voidray army that is not pure static defense tempest turtle, is to damage their economy so bad that multiple remaxes eventually overpower the protoss. If other skilled zergs have an army composition I am not using correctly please feel free to show me. Oh, the irony is not lost on me here. You are suggesting that a Voidray army, which takes a lot of time and sacrifice to build, a unit that costs 4 supply, 250 minerals and 150 gas, is too hard to counter? You really can't think of a way to beat a specific build like that? As a GM, I'm sure it's obvious to you that the game is asymmetrically balanced and that when certain builds are allowed to be executed unhindered their power of advantage becomes greater. Scouting such a build is not so hard either since getting a sizable VR army quickly would show you more than 1 Stargate and a gradual build up takes time. There is a large window where the Protoss ground army is super weak and vulnerable to counter attack. You shouldn't expect to play vs. every build and strategy to the late game and have a viable way to win, something that is intended as part of the design. Queens start becoming really effective vs. VRs with carapace upgrade since every +1 armor reduces VR dps by 2, a Queen with +2 armor upgrade will reduce a VR's DPS on a queen from 10 to 6... which is the same as a sentry or at max upgrades from 16 to 10. Or better yet, 2 queens cost as much supply, 50 more minerals but no gas. Do the math, if you have 2:1 ratio of Queens to VR. You are gonna kill the VRs. And if the Protoss kills your queens with a ground switch its still in your favor because he lost a ton of gas and you only used minerals and Zerg ground > Protoss... You use a lot of words and it cleverly masks the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Cutting through the bullshit here is that apparently "mass queen is the answer to skytoss". Also the skytoss style is very turtley and it is very difficult to attack into it. It's immobile and not very good when in small numbers, i.e, death ball formation, certainly there are maps which make this strat hard to deal with, AW comes to mind, but you don't just stupidly mass Queen. Since Skytoss is very supply heavy type of composition there is a weakness that can be exploited there with early and mid game timings. On bigger maps it's very viable to take a lot of bases since any significant push from the Protoss immediately opens him up for ling counter attacks. You won't clean the Protoss army up in one trade, but even if it take 2-3 waves the ultimate result favors the Zerg because the result will be very gas efficient trade for the Zerg. One other issue here is that in most pro level games Skytoss isn't a prevalent strategy and it's not very often we see the MU unfold in such ways. It is no where near the level of how Inf/GGLord dominated the MU and as we can see the win rates between the races is quite even. I just don't see how this is a problem at the level where the game is being balanced. VRs are really powerful on the ladder, but at the pro level you don't really see them being massed all that often. @ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3 I think they posted the April win rates recently....might want to check your stat book on that one
Who is they?
Edit: Here is a snippet from the current WCS, from a sample of 1235 games, 355 PvZ, we see a PvZ 48%, with Z having a marginal lead...
Edit 2: Source: http://aligulac.com/results/events/12944-WCS-2013/
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That's not the problem in ZvZ. You can't get your third base if your opponent commits to 2 base ling muta. Even if spores are better you're not getting your third base up for a while, so you'll get out macro'ed badly. I think buffing static defenses is the solution, but for that to work the spine needs to be balanced too. Make it like the photon cannon dps, the bonus to armored is useless. Make them less overkill against the zerglings, but faster attack speed. Make walling against lings possible with spines. This way, if you get and early third while holding with ling/bane until it's up, and then transfer static defense, you can hold the muta ling attack and end up with a better economy.
Spore+Spine change will help both ZvZ and ZvT, too. The zerg mineral dump (ling) is useless against terran, even against well microed drops. This is the same thing in ZvP, but static defense is decent in that matchup, so minerals are dumped there instead. Right now static defense is useless in ZvT, and zerg is left using gas heavy units to do anything, while terran has a cost effective, low gas army + harassment. It's just not fair, but I think making static defense actually able to defend is a solution. You know, so 12 marines and a medivac runby can't just kill a base unless you have 30 lings and 10 banes hanging out there. I should be able to stop them with static defenses. Like planetary fortress, turrets and repair defends anything but ultra or broodlord.
I know you can't compare something so easily but units have a cap, and if I need a higher quantity of more expensive units to defend every location, things don't add up.
Static D revolution time.
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I'm fine with the changes they propose they all seem reasonable.
I however would still like to see an attack priority change on unburrowed widow mines. Be nice to be able to punish players moving across the map with unburrowed mines. As they are now they function like siege tanks that almost instantly siege up and can fire at units next to them. Honestly feel like this one very small change would bring mines to a good balance state.
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On April 23 2013 13:22 BeyondCtrL wrote:
@ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3
No, seriously. Tell me which Zerg ground army beats a Protoss ground army mostly consisting of Archons and Robo units. Immortals are cost and supplyefficient against any zerg unit if you have enough of them.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On April 23 2013 13:26 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 13:25 infKelsier wrote:On April 23 2013 13:22 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 13:04 infKelsier wrote:On April 23 2013 12:57 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 12:06 Msr wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. The Wood League warriors are the first reveal themselves in these threads... Ironic because I am GM on every server, and Ive yet to find a way to kill a voidray army. Hydras and corrupters both get completely destroyed by voidrays. Aoe is the biggest issue with hydras being terrible vs them, and queen-spores is too immobile. The only way I've found to beat a voidray army that is not pure static defense tempest turtle, is to damage their economy so bad that multiple remaxes eventually overpower the protoss. If other skilled zergs have an army composition I am not using correctly please feel free to show me. Oh, the irony is not lost on me here. You are suggesting that a Voidray army, which takes a lot of time and sacrifice to build, a unit that costs 4 supply, 250 minerals and 150 gas, is too hard to counter? You really can't think of a way to beat a specific build like that? As a GM, I'm sure it's obvious to you that the game is asymmetrically balanced and that when certain builds are allowed to be executed unhindered their power of advantage becomes greater. Scouting such a build is not so hard either since getting a sizable VR army quickly would show you more than 1 Stargate and a gradual build up takes time. There is a large window where the Protoss ground army is super weak and vulnerable to counter attack. You shouldn't expect to play vs. every build and strategy to the late game and have a viable way to win, something that is intended as part of the design. Queens start becoming really effective vs. VRs with carapace upgrade since every +1 armor reduces VR dps by 2, a Queen with +2 armor upgrade will reduce a VR's DPS on a queen from 10 to 6... which is the same as a sentry or at max upgrades from 16 to 10. Or better yet, 2 queens cost as much supply, 50 more minerals but no gas. Do the math, if you have 2:1 ratio of Queens to VR. You are gonna kill the VRs. And if the Protoss kills your queens with a ground switch its still in your favor because he lost a ton of gas and you only used minerals and Zerg ground > Protoss... You use a lot of words and it cleverly masks the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Cutting through the bullshit here is that apparently "mass queen is the answer to skytoss". Also the skytoss style is very turtley and it is very difficult to attack into it. It's immobile and not very good when in small numbers, i.e, death ball formation, certainly there are maps which make this strat hard to deal with, AW comes to mind, but you don't just stupidly mass Queen. Since Skytoss is very supply heavy type of composition there is a weakness that can be exploited there with early and mid game timings. On bigger maps it's very viable to take a lot of bases since any significant push from the Protoss immediately opens him up for ling counter attacks. You won't clean the Protoss army up in one trade, but even if it take 2-3 waves the ultimate result favors the Zerg because the result will be very gas efficient trade for the Zerg. One other issue here is that in most pro level games Skytoss isn't a prevalent strategy and it's not very often we see the MU unfold in such ways. It is no where near the level of how Inf/GGLord dominated the MU and as we can see the win rates between the races is quite even. I just don't see how this is a problem at the level where the game is being balanced. VRs are really powerful on the ladder, but at the pro level you don't really see them being massed all that often. @ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3 I think they posted the April win rates recently....might want to check your stat book on that one Who is they? Edit: Here is a snippet from the current WCS, from a sample of 1235 games, 355 PvZ, we see a PvZ 48%, with Z having a marginal lead...
The week in starcraft released the winrates
here is a link to the doc
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0
Thing is you said the winrates were even between the races so i'm curious how you arrived at that conclusion.
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On April 23 2013 13:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 13:22 BeyondCtrL wrote:
@ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3
No, seriously. Tell me which Zerg ground army beats a Protoss ground army mostly consisting of Archons and Robo units. Immortals are cost and supplyefficient against any zerg unit if you have enough of them.
So you are asking if 10+ Immortals, Archons, HTs, Collosus and Gateway meat is cost effcient 1:1 vs Zerg? First Protoss is supposed to be cost efficient unit to unit by design, secondly you are creating a ridiculous composition which almost never happens. I'd love to see those 5 base mass Immortal, Archon, Collosus, Templar builds... because it's so easy to get to. And additionally how do you expect a Protoss that loses a Sky army to re-max on something like that?
The amount of Zerg tears post WoL is really amusing.
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Oracle is already hella fast, I really dont understand why it needs a change...
Seriously. PvT and PvP i always open oracle and it does quite well, if they buffed it defending would just be impossible...
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On April 23 2013 13:34 infKelsier wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 13:26 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 13:25 infKelsier wrote:On April 23 2013 13:22 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 13:04 infKelsier wrote:On April 23 2013 12:57 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 12:06 Msr wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. The Wood League warriors are the first reveal themselves in these threads... Ironic because I am GM on every server, and Ive yet to find a way to kill a voidray army. Hydras and corrupters both get completely destroyed by voidrays. Aoe is the biggest issue with hydras being terrible vs them, and queen-spores is too immobile. The only way I've found to beat a voidray army that is not pure static defense tempest turtle, is to damage their economy so bad that multiple remaxes eventually overpower the protoss. If other skilled zergs have an army composition I am not using correctly please feel free to show me. Oh, the irony is not lost on me here. You are suggesting that a Voidray army, which takes a lot of time and sacrifice to build, a unit that costs 4 supply, 250 minerals and 150 gas, is too hard to counter? You really can't think of a way to beat a specific build like that? As a GM, I'm sure it's obvious to you that the game is asymmetrically balanced and that when certain builds are allowed to be executed unhindered their power of advantage becomes greater. Scouting such a build is not so hard either since getting a sizable VR army quickly would show you more than 1 Stargate and a gradual build up takes time. There is a large window where the Protoss ground army is super weak and vulnerable to counter attack. You shouldn't expect to play vs. every build and strategy to the late game and have a viable way to win, something that is intended as part of the design. Queens start becoming really effective vs. VRs with carapace upgrade since every +1 armor reduces VR dps by 2, a Queen with +2 armor upgrade will reduce a VR's DPS on a queen from 10 to 6... which is the same as a sentry or at max upgrades from 16 to 10. Or better yet, 2 queens cost as much supply, 50 more minerals but no gas. Do the math, if you have 2:1 ratio of Queens to VR. You are gonna kill the VRs. And if the Protoss kills your queens with a ground switch its still in your favor because he lost a ton of gas and you only used minerals and Zerg ground > Protoss... You use a lot of words and it cleverly masks the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Cutting through the bullshit here is that apparently "mass queen is the answer to skytoss". Also the skytoss style is very turtley and it is very difficult to attack into it. It's immobile and not very good when in small numbers, i.e, death ball formation, certainly there are maps which make this strat hard to deal with, AW comes to mind, but you don't just stupidly mass Queen. Since Skytoss is very supply heavy type of composition there is a weakness that can be exploited there with early and mid game timings. On bigger maps it's very viable to take a lot of bases since any significant push from the Protoss immediately opens him up for ling counter attacks. You won't clean the Protoss army up in one trade, but even if it take 2-3 waves the ultimate result favors the Zerg because the result will be very gas efficient trade for the Zerg. One other issue here is that in most pro level games Skytoss isn't a prevalent strategy and it's not very often we see the MU unfold in such ways. It is no where near the level of how Inf/GGLord dominated the MU and as we can see the win rates between the races is quite even. I just don't see how this is a problem at the level where the game is being balanced. VRs are really powerful on the ladder, but at the pro level you don't really see them being massed all that often. @ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3 I think they posted the April win rates recently....might want to check your stat book on that one Who is they? Edit: Here is a snippet from the current WCS, from a sample of 1235 games, 355 PvZ, we see a PvZ 48%, with Z having a marginal lead... The week in starcraft released the winrates here is a link to the doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0Thing is you said the winrates were even between the races so i'm curious how you arrived at that conclusion.
Hahaha, look at that underwhelming sample size... wow. Btw, I saw a Protoss beat a Zerg 3-0, 100% winrate for Protoss, it's imba yo... >_>
EDIT: Also keep in mind that some of the samples, taken from ACT and PL really skew the actual win rates.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On April 23 2013 13:40 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 13:34 infKelsier wrote:On April 23 2013 13:26 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 13:25 infKelsier wrote:On April 23 2013 13:22 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 13:04 infKelsier wrote:On April 23 2013 12:57 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 12:06 Msr wrote:On April 23 2013 11:59 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 11:56 Msr wrote:
voidrays have no counter, no army composition or control out there can counter them. This clearly cant be unnoticed by blizzard... I can understand waiting to tweak broken units like the widowmine and medivac because they can be beaten with good awareness and micro, but really voidrays make the game a complete joke. The Wood League warriors are the first reveal themselves in these threads... Ironic because I am GM on every server, and Ive yet to find a way to kill a voidray army. Hydras and corrupters both get completely destroyed by voidrays. Aoe is the biggest issue with hydras being terrible vs them, and queen-spores is too immobile. The only way I've found to beat a voidray army that is not pure static defense tempest turtle, is to damage their economy so bad that multiple remaxes eventually overpower the protoss. If other skilled zergs have an army composition I am not using correctly please feel free to show me. Oh, the irony is not lost on me here. You are suggesting that a Voidray army, which takes a lot of time and sacrifice to build, a unit that costs 4 supply, 250 minerals and 150 gas, is too hard to counter? You really can't think of a way to beat a specific build like that? As a GM, I'm sure it's obvious to you that the game is asymmetrically balanced and that when certain builds are allowed to be executed unhindered their power of advantage becomes greater. Scouting such a build is not so hard either since getting a sizable VR army quickly would show you more than 1 Stargate and a gradual build up takes time. There is a large window where the Protoss ground army is super weak and vulnerable to counter attack. You shouldn't expect to play vs. every build and strategy to the late game and have a viable way to win, something that is intended as part of the design. Queens start becoming really effective vs. VRs with carapace upgrade since every +1 armor reduces VR dps by 2, a Queen with +2 armor upgrade will reduce a VR's DPS on a queen from 10 to 6... which is the same as a sentry or at max upgrades from 16 to 10. Or better yet, 2 queens cost as much supply, 50 more minerals but no gas. Do the math, if you have 2:1 ratio of Queens to VR. You are gonna kill the VRs. And if the Protoss kills your queens with a ground switch its still in your favor because he lost a ton of gas and you only used minerals and Zerg ground > Protoss... You use a lot of words and it cleverly masks the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Cutting through the bullshit here is that apparently "mass queen is the answer to skytoss". Also the skytoss style is very turtley and it is very difficult to attack into it. It's immobile and not very good when in small numbers, i.e, death ball formation, certainly there are maps which make this strat hard to deal with, AW comes to mind, but you don't just stupidly mass Queen. Since Skytoss is very supply heavy type of composition there is a weakness that can be exploited there with early and mid game timings. On bigger maps it's very viable to take a lot of bases since any significant push from the Protoss immediately opens him up for ling counter attacks. You won't clean the Protoss army up in one trade, but even if it take 2-3 waves the ultimate result favors the Zerg because the result will be very gas efficient trade for the Zerg. One other issue here is that in most pro level games Skytoss isn't a prevalent strategy and it's not very often we see the MU unfold in such ways. It is no where near the level of how Inf/GGLord dominated the MU and as we can see the win rates between the races is quite even. I just don't see how this is a problem at the level where the game is being balanced. VRs are really powerful on the ladder, but at the pro level you don't really see them being massed all that often. @ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3 I think they posted the April win rates recently....might want to check your stat book on that one Who is they? Edit: Here is a snippet from the current WCS, from a sample of 1235 games, 355 PvZ, we see a PvZ 48%, with Z having a marginal lead... The week in starcraft released the winrates here is a link to the doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0Thing is you said the winrates were even between the races so i'm curious how you arrived at that conclusion. Hahaha, look at that underwhelming sample size... wow. Btw, I saw a Protoss beat a Zerg 3-0, 100% winrate for Protoss, it's imba yo... >_>
You brought up statistics to support your argument and now you are saying they are meaningless or that you don't have any statistics.
Honestly I don't really think it is valuable to discuss strategy with someone who thinks I should "mass queen because they are just 2 supply and a void is 4"
Best answer to skytoss is probably hydra, viper with lots of anti air static D. Not just attacking into someone turtling.
I just don't agree with making an argument based on statistics without providing relevant statistics and then trying to ridicule someone who does.
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United States97277 Posts
sporecrawlers should just shoot out fungal growths. problem solved
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I dont understand the oracle speed buff, they're already so fast?!
also why no widow mine nerf david kim t.t
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On April 23 2013 13:38 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 13:32 Big J wrote:On April 23 2013 13:22 BeyondCtrL wrote:
@ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3
No, seriously. Tell me which Zerg ground army beats a Protoss ground army mostly consisting of Archons and Robo units. Immortals are cost and supplyefficient against any zerg unit if you have enough of them. So you are asking if 10+ Immortals, Archons, HTs, Collosus and Gateway meat is cost effcient 1:1 vs Zerg? First Protoss is supposed to be cost efficient unit to unit by design, secondly you are creating a ridiculous composition which almost never happens. I'd love to see those 5 base mass Immortal, Archon, Collosus, Templar builds... because it's so easy to get to. And additionally how do you expect a Protoss that loses a Sky army to re-max on something like that? The amount of Zerg tears post WoL is really amusing.
You lost me at "Protoss is suppoed to be costefficient". Because in Starcraft 2 with capped income that is equivalent to "Protoss is supposed to win".
And I'm not talking about a Protoss that loses a skyarmy. I'm talking purely about your comment that zerg ground beats protoss ground. So I ask again. How do you beat this composition with zerg ground.
Also: 350games "underwhelming" sample size? You know nothing about statistics...
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People freak out about the oracle, but it's so very rarely used. The only thing it really gets used for is in proxy PvP as cheese. Making it faster (as long as it doesn't beat a phoenix) doesn't really make this that much stronger, but it gives it more potential in other matchups. You have to admit that it isn't very useful late game. Although it is a weird change.
Everything else is cool. I love that blizzard is looking at buffs to other units, and not nerfs to existing ones.
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EPT
