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On April 23 2013 16:47 Teoita wrote:
It would be nice if they addressed the piss poor AA of stalker/templar vs muta. Having no options in PvZ is no fun.
Is it only just when the mutas come out that P have trouble? I wonder because I don't play P but I know as Z I will never go muta vs an early stargate because double chronod phoenix is just too much. If properly microd you won't ever damage them if they are microd well and they just aren't cost effective. I can see how they would be a problem if you opened Robo though.
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On April 23 2013 16:41 Tsubbi wrote:
dk mentioned in apollos interview just 2 weeks ago that they look into buffing swarm hosts since nobody uses them, now its forgotten again like nydus and corrutper buffs for hots
I imagine they have a working list of units they'd like to tweak with possible buffs/nerfs if given the chance.
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On April 23 2013 16:55 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:41 Tsubbi wrote:
dk mentioned in apollos interview just 2 weeks ago that they look into buffing swarm hosts since nobody uses them, now its forgotten again like nydus and corrutper buffs for hots I imagine they have a working list of units they'd like to tweak with possible buffs/nerfs if given the chance.
Please give us the deep burrow from the campain  .
It's gonna be reverted one week after because it would be too f***ing imba, but zergs would have a good fun for a week (why nydus when you can poop a bit of creep and teleport 20 SH ?  )
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Question a bit the change to the oracle. I've always said, I feel the oracle openings need more longevity(as in to work somewhat even after scouted), so in that respect I'm fine with a speed boost, but they also need to tone the killspeed down. It shouldn't be able to kill 5 workers before you even notice.
I was also hoping they'd lower the initial dmg of the hellbat and make blue flame effect hellbat again, to boost the dmg back to current form. They really need to address the hellbat drops, they are disgusting(this coming from a T player). I also think they need to do it, so they only address the drops, not the unit itself(as in how strong it is in a straight up engagement, I'm quite fine with how it is atm). If they did that, I'd feel that they should lower blueflame cost to 100/100 and same with hellbat transformation(not because of the changes, but 150/150 is redicilous for an upgrade that is only there to stop a certain timing).
Edit: Yesterday I was in a game, TvZ. I was trying out a new build focused around hellbats. Well in like 5 hellbat drops, I ended up killing 30 workers(and the funny thing is, I didn't actually think I killed many workers at all, guess they just evaporated when I wasn't watching). Again I feel hellbat drops should still work in the game, I just feel the opponent needs a bit more time before they start doing the really critical dmg.
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That proposed Spore Crawler +bio damage change sounds horrible. It's fighting a symptom instead of a cause, and it won't actually change the muta vs muta war much. They already applied this buff once and look what it did. Wait till you have slightly more mutas and then swing in and out. Or just have slightly more lings.
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?? I am P master, Why buff oracle ? I think it is already op! Work on something different.
Like Window mine too cost effective without any skills. Need to correct that: Hellbat, medivac, mutas, voidray and sure oracle, they all are op.(overpowered=op, thx omnic)
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Bring back some moving shot (not auto shot), make that harass somewhat interesting/skill based.
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On April 23 2013 17:05 Zarahtra wrote:
They really need to address the hellbat drops, they are disgusting(this coming from a T player).
As a fellow terran I don't think they are all that good if you learn how to deal with it. First in WoL terran drops were also way stronger than in the end, simply because people learned how to deal with it, and terran need good drops: terran needs to harass the other races to keep up, not the other way around.
And for reference, I don't use them quite often myself. Last fellow terran who used them against me killed 4-5 SCVs for losing 4 medivacs + their hellbats. Imo many people just need to play a bit less greedy and invest more in static defenses: for example in a WCS AM qualifier I saw a toss who lost whole bunch of probes to hellbat probes, and never bothered to make more than a single photon cannon, while many times a second cannon would have significantly lowered the damage done. Generally I also see terrans way more often investing quite a bit in static defenses by creating a turret ring around their main than the other races.
That said I do agree that probably the best idea for nerfing hellbats is removing bonus damage vs light and making them affected by blue flame again, and then like you said lower cost (and especially of the transformation servo's also, that has right now ridiculous cost imo, especially when you also look at how long it takes to transform, it isn't like it is a good idea to go as hellions to a mineral line and then transform).
Regarding oracles: you can double their speed, it won't change much. Well higher speed means they can use envision better, but thats all. Why? Because oracles are so enormously dangerous already. So right now there are pretty much two scenarios: the defender didn't expect the oracles and sees some mineral line genocide. Or he did expect oracles and made sure his mineral line is 100% oracle proof, there is nothing in between.
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The ZvZ change seems like a good idea.
Oracle change is a big fat no. Catching them early game with marines is hard enough.
I guess a bit lower gas cost for burrow could work, but I mainly see this upgrade as weird. Mainly weird because if seems very good. I would use it if I was playing Zerg as main.
EDIT:
To comment on hellbat drops. 19/20 times I see people loose to this they don't have a part of their army at home, or any AA. How well do you think terran would do if you drop/nydus him? Let me tell you, not very well. Blizzard said that they wanted to break up the deathball armies I'm sure better drops is one of the ways they selected to do it.
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United States188 Posts
On April 23 2013 17:33 Sissors wrote:
Last fellow terran who used them against me killed 4-5 SCVs for losing 4 medivacs + their hellbats.
You shut down 4 medivacs full of hellbats and only lost 4-5 scvs? What league are you in and when did these hellbats arrive?
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Basically what I am reading:
Zerg players are too dull and non-adaptive to use burrow - let´s force them to get burrow in the early game.
Protoss players have bad micro - let´s make their harass unit faster.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
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On April 23 2013 17:48 kinsky wrote:
Basically what I am reading:
Zerg players are too dull and non-adaptive to use burrow - let´s force them to get burrow in the early game.
Protoss players have bad micro - let´s make their harass unit faster.
Then I believe this will help you:
http://www.esolcourses.com/
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On April 23 2013 17:38 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 17:33 Sissors wrote:
Last fellow terran who used them against me killed 4-5 SCVs for losing 4 medivacs + their hellbats. You shut down 4 medivacs full of hellbats and only lost 4-5 scvs? What league are you in and when did these hellbats arrive?
Sorry that wasn't completely clear, they didnt all arrive at once, first two-times a single medivac, than once two medivacs. Still wouldn't call it a good trade for him though. They arrived at fairly normal timing for hellbat drop, dunno when exactly. And masters league.
Just a matter of pulling SCVs in time, having at least one missile turret, but preferably more (in case of early drops more isn't realistic, but a widow is then nice), and marauders with concussive shells. They are already quite slow with piss poor range, but when you got marauders with concussive shells kiting them can be done by a bronze leaguer. So then it just is a matter of making sure his medivac has a limitted life span.
Of course I have also lost from hellbat drops, but that teached me to adapt: a few marines are not a defense against hellbat drops.
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Well, I think hellbat drops just haven't been figured out yet. Watching yesterday's games between Heromarine and TLO in the Kaspersky arena, TLO managed to defend the hellbat drops incredibly well (the initial one just killing three workers, I think).
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Seems to be quite a split on the Oracle changes, unless those 39% up votes are Protoss players :p
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So Blizz is happy with use of Swarm host? Pretty sure, it is not used as 'core' unit as they said they intend to make it during beta.
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United States188 Posts
On April 23 2013 17:51 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 17:38 omnic wrote:On April 23 2013 17:33 Sissors wrote:
Last fellow terran who used them against me killed 4-5 SCVs for losing 4 medivacs + their hellbats. You shut down 4 medivacs full of hellbats and only lost 4-5 scvs? What league are you in and when did these hellbats arrive? Sorry that wasn't completely clear, they didnt all arrive at once, first two-times a single medivac, than once two medivacs. Still wouldn't call it a good trade for him though. They arrived at fairly normal timing for hellbat drop, dunno when exactly. And masters league. Just a matter of pulling SCVs in time, having at least one missile turret, but preferably more (in case of early drops more isn't realistic, but a widow is then nice), and marauders with concussive shells. They are already quite slow with piss poor range, but when you got marauders with concussive shells kiting them can be done by a bronze leaguer. So then it just is a matter of making sure his medivac has a limitted life span. Of course I have also lost from hellbat drops, but that teached me to adapt: a few marines are not a defense against hellbat drops.
That sounds pretty solid as terran where marauders are going to be good pretty much all game but what exactly are zergs supposed to do? queens and zerglings are not exactly great against hellbats in a mineral line. If zerg scouts a factory should they roach just in case of hellbat drops even though hydra/roach is bad vs mech?
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On April 23 2013 17:52 JustPassingBy wrote:
Well, I think hellbat drops just haven't been figured out yet. Watching yesterday's games between Heromarine and TLO in the Kaspersky arena, TLO managed to defend the hellbat drops incredibly well (the initial one just killing three workers, I think).
yeah, I'm having a really easy time against hellbat drops. Maybe just me playing TvT like a Turtle with a Yamato Canon on it's back. ^^
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Not very good changes I personally think
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EPT
