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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On April 23 2013 16:11 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 15:09 TAMinator wrote:
*Unit not used enough* Lets buff it !
Seems to be a common trend in blizzard balance schemes.
Are you complaining? Even if the only use for it is some quirky roach all-in against Terran, it's still neat. I wouldn't mind seeing a nydus cost reduction, either. Make it so that defensive nyduses are more viable.
Worked for the Warp Prism, it's not always bad overbuffing stuff
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Ahahah actually this burrow buff will be as efficient as a nydus buff...no one will use it because it's gimmicky.
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On April 23 2013 16:14 MalditoKyo wrote:
Ahahah actually this burrow buff will be as efficient as a nydus buff...no one will use it because it's gimmicky.
Go watch True versus Fantasy G3 in the GSL.
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On April 23 2013 16:16 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:14 MalditoKyo wrote:
Ahahah actually this burrow buff will be as efficient as a nydus buff...no one will use it because it's gimmicky. Go watch True versus Fantasy G3 in the GSL.
Sorry, i'm not that good, and so are 95% of Starcraft players...
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United States188 Posts
On April 23 2013 16:16 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:14 MalditoKyo wrote:
Ahahah actually this burrow buff will be as efficient as a nydus buff...no one will use it because it's gimmicky. Go watch True versus Fantasy G3 in the GSL.
Pointing out a single game where something works does not mean something is not gimmicky nor does it mean it is solid play.
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On April 23 2013 16:12 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:11 Ribbon wrote:On April 23 2013 15:09 TAMinator wrote:
*Unit not used enough* Lets buff it !
Seems to be a common trend in blizzard balance schemes.
Are you complaining? Even if the only use for it is some quirky roach all-in against Terran, it's still neat. I wouldn't mind seeing a nydus cost reduction, either. Make it so that defensive nyduses are more viable. Worked for the Warp Prism, it's not always bad overbuffing stuff
Like, right now, Burrow is 100/100 and takes 100 seconds to research. What if it was 50/50 and took 45 seconds to research? 25/25 and ten seconds?
You can have a lot of map vision with burrowed lings, you can block expansions with it, you can burrow drones against drops (or split them then burrow). If you're forced to make roaches, super-cheap burrow makes it easier to put some pressure back on with them. Baneling mines are good, and force Terran to burn scans. It's not really game-changing or anything, but it's a nice little utility that could deserve a bit more love.
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On April 23 2013 16:18 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 23 2013 16:14 MalditoKyo wrote:
Ahahah actually this burrow buff will be as efficient as a nydus buff...no one will use it because it's gimmicky. Go watch True versus Fantasy G3 in the GSL. Pointing out a single game where something works does not mean something is not gimmicky nor does it mean it is solid play.
Buffing nyduses makes them less gimmicky, though. If, for instance, the worms were free and on a cooldown (one worm per 30 seconds per network), we'd see a lot more Nydus usage, because you could set up warp points all over the map and then keep making worms in Terran's base just to make him keep killing it. (People would also do silly things like walling off with nydus worms 3 layers deep, which is why this buff is actually too good, but still)
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On April 23 2013 16:18 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 23 2013 16:14 MalditoKyo wrote:
Ahahah actually this burrow buff will be as efficient as a nydus buff...no one will use it because it's gimmicky. Go watch True versus Fantasy G3 in the GSL. Pointing out a single game where something works does not mean something is not gimmicky nor does it mean it is solid play.
If I'm not mistaken Symbol used some nydus to kill keen too.
Actually in GSL diverse roaches pressures (or "kaldor pressure") have a pretty good winrate in ZvT. It's still gimicky, but the fact it works hint that maybe terrans are too greedy and zerg should punish them more.
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On April 23 2013 14:48 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 14:38 omnic wrote:On April 23 2013 14:29 GTPGlitch wrote:On April 23 2013 13:47 Big J wrote:On April 23 2013 13:38 BeyondCtrL wrote:On April 23 2013 13:32 Big J wrote:On April 23 2013 13:22 BeyondCtrL wrote:
@ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3
No, seriously. Tell me which Zerg ground army beats a Protoss ground army mostly consisting of Archons and Robo units. Immortals are cost and supplyefficient against any zerg unit if you have enough of them. So you are asking if 10+ Immortals, Archons, HTs, Collosus and Gateway meat is cost effcient 1:1 vs Zerg? First Protoss is supposed to be cost efficient unit to unit by design, secondly you are creating a ridiculous composition which almost never happens. I'd love to see those 5 base mass Immortal, Archon, Collosus, Templar builds... because it's so easy to get to. And additionally how do you expect a Protoss that loses a Sky army to re-max on something like that? The amount of Zerg tears post WoL is really amusing. You lost me at "Protoss is suppoed to be costefficient". Because in Starcraft 2 with capped income that is equivalent to "Protoss is supposed to win". And I'm not talking about a Protoss that loses a skyarmy. I'm talking purely about your comment that zerg ground beats protoss ground. So I ask again. How do you beat this composition with zerg ground. Also: 350games "underwhelming" sample size? You know nothing about statistics... theeeeeeee fuck are you talking about? protoss is supposed to be cost efficient because they are slow and expensive and their tech is spread out like a jello bomb. If you let a protoss get to 6base and assemble an archonrobogatewaystargatearmyofDOOOOOOM you're fucked sure enough-seems awfully similar to a certain race that would secure bases and turtle to infestor+hive tech with techswitches (not naming any names though). And, as to a ground army that could do it, I would place my bets on ultra/swarmhost/infestor/hydra having the best chance (not necessarily 100%), and if you say that's unrealistic because it's expensive, i'm going to laugh at you. So according to you protoss is playing how zergs did play at the end of WOL and that if you allow them to do that then you deserve to die? You do realize everybody considered what zerg was doing as a problem that warranted changes to the game to prevent right? I want to make sure you understand that considering what you're saying that now that it's protoss it's somehow ok. p.s. To be frank protoss are the cost efficient race as much as zerg are the "swarm" race in that neither of them really are if anything terran fills those roles more in sc2. People need to stop acting like this is BW, it's not. Except 1) Protoss doesn't have larva, so they need to balance spending between army, economy, and infrastructure a lot more, as well as being unable to make 80 probes behind 800 minerals worth of units 2) Without creep/spine+spore and the aggression-killer that was insta fungal, protoss is mega vulnerable when on 4+ bases with a super immobile army 3) Since the ultimate protoss deathball requires three different tech routes, it takes a lot longer and a lot more money to reach than blord/infestor/corruptor with a switch into ultras afterwards-and all the time and money and supply invested into incomplete deathballs is begging for a timing attack
1) Not sure what you are saying here. Protoss has to make units early to defend against specific timings, much like Zerg has to do the same. You think you can stop a Sentry, Immortal all in if it's moving out and you have no units? Or a heavy marine stim push with no pre morphed banelings? Nope...
2) Without cannons which fill the role of both spore/spine and the instant aggression killer that is forcefields Zerg was mega vulnerable on 4+ base with super immobile Broodlord infestor army.
Hyperbole has no place in a good argument. You can see why this is ridiculous. Essentially you just hit spot on what was boring to watch about Z in WoL.
3) If you don't know that Hive timing weakness in Z teching then I'm not sure what to say. There is a super vulnerable time for Z in all match ups in WoL where Hive just finished and most of your supply is in corruptor, infestor and then a time when all you have is Infestor while Broodlords are morphing, in this time there will be almost no units that can even attack.. Even though Z was OP it didn't have timing weaknesses. Don't try to say it didn't.
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On April 23 2013 16:17 MalditoKyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 23 2013 16:14 MalditoKyo wrote:
Ahahah actually this burrow buff will be as efficient as a nydus buff...no one will use it because it's gimmicky. Go watch True versus Fantasy G3 in the GSL. Sorry, i'm not that good, and so are 95% of Starcraft players...
First, have you tried emulating that build? Is it difficult to do?
Secondly, sorry, but a competitive game should not be patched according to your lack in skill. The good news is, if you improve, you'll win a lot even when you don't play all that well.
On April 23 2013 16:18 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 23 2013 16:14 MalditoKyo wrote:
Ahahah actually this burrow buff will be as efficient as a nydus buff...no one will use it because it's gimmicky. Go watch True versus Fantasy G3 in the GSL. Pointing out a single game where something works does not mean something is not gimmicky nor does it mean it is solid play.
Fine, Symbol versus Keen G1 in the GSL. Hyvaa versus Alive in the Proleague. These are just from the last few days. This is obviously something people are experimenting with right now. Whether it works eventually is determined months from now. But that means you don't get to whine until these experiments have drawn to a conclusion.
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I always thought that less expensive nydus, only on hatch (you can connect 2 hatch, nydus style) could help using only defensive nydus (which is currently just a cheese tool in SC2).
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These changes are obviously geared towards the higher levels of play. I really don't think the meta-game has properly stabilized yet, so making big changes is still inadvisable.
My two cents on the changes (just my opinion feel free to disagree but please don't be rude about it)
Oracle speed boost might cause problems in Silver/Gold but at higher levels good T's will be able to shoo it away with fast reactions and well placed mines/static defense - in this situation it shouldn't ever be able to cause game ending damage if scouted and reacted to properly but rather be able to speed in, get a few kills and then speed off, greatly increasing its harass potential. I loved Rains usage of oracle vs. Flash in their proleague ace match - it didn't even get huge amounts of worker kills but his use of revelation was amazing and likely changed the game - I'm sure that's what Blizz had in mind when they designed it. A speedier oracle would hopefully improve its utility. Maybe they could even make it a little more fragile to ensure only the most skilled players can use it properly.
Spore crawler damage - agree with this change even though I don't play Z - need something to allow for other viable compositions in the mid-game. I still feel like big flocks of mutas controlling the center of the map will be prevalent, even with this change. I actually wouldn't mind seeing a slight buff to spore crawler damage to other units as well. Would give the zerg stronger tools to deal with turbovacs as well as buffed phoenixes and void-rays (but not tempests and carriers) this would have the unfortunate side effect of shutting down banshee too much.
As for peoples comments about Hellbats - sure they are strong but I haven't seen a lot of GSL/PL games where they completely dominate. I feel like in straight up fights they are working well i.e a meat shield with not really enough range to own a well microed ranged composition - from any race. But in terms of drops, they still seem a bit overpowered, they just kill worker lines too fast. Sound's hellbat drop in GSTL comes to mind - but this wasn't scouted. Fantasy also wrecked Taeja's economy in their game on Akilon - but it still ended up being close.
I still think another 3 months of pro-level play is needed before any major changes.
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buff spore, encourage us to make infestor zvz, so you can't leave your base so the muta player tech to ultra and infestors are still useless  ))))
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Best of this is Blizzard taking things slowly and in small steps, instead of balancing with a bazooka as in WoL.
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dk mentioned in apollos interview just 2 weeks ago that they look into buffing swarm hosts since nobody uses them, now its forgotten again like nydus and corrutper buffs for hots
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United States188 Posts
On April 23 2013 16:28 Ghanburighan wrote:
Fine, Symbol versus Keen G1 in the GSL. Hyvaa versus Alive in the Proleague. These are just from the last few days. This is obviously something people are experimenting with right now.
For every sort of burrow central play or nydus focused play you have seen in the pro scene I can list 20 games of silly gimmicky builds. Sure after the experimentation ends we'll know if it's solid or not but until then it's gimmicky until proven solid.
On April 23 2013 16:28 Ghanburighan wrote:
But that means you don't get to whine until these experiments have drawn to a conclusion.
The second experimentation stops in an esport is the second the scene starts to die. If you think somebody can't complain about something until everybody stops experimenting than nobody can complain about anything until the scene is dead. I'm not saying these builds are bad but just because a couple of people win with something that you don't really see in the majority of games doesn't mean it's solid it usually means the enemy player didn't know what to do against it.
This all said not everything that is gimmicky can't become standard but you don't assume that from the get go and act like it'll be solid . That's what happened with the bunker when it made its series of changes.
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I like the spore idea, seems reasonable. Hopefully it will create some new interesting strategies/timings in ZvZ. Don't really get the oracle buff tbh, but there probably is something I'm missing. Burrow changes are awsome, love early burrow timings :D would love to see some GSL zergs using early burrow for cool stuff
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Italy12248 Posts
It would be nice if they addressed the piss poor AA of stalker/templar vs muta. Having no options in PvZ is no fun.
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Cool changes. It's actually really frustrating, I've never had so little time to play and I feel like Starcraft 2 has never been more awesome.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
That doesn't seem good to me the oracle change. To make the micro'able to avoid air units is going make them quicker...making them quicker will make them so good in the early game vs greedy builds? The ability to move in and out and kill harvesters as quick as they do might make something of a big change!
ZvZ change seems to be make Spores do even more damage and then try and buff infestors again....well you can't buff infestors again or Zerg just become WOL zerg again ;_;
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EPT
