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Blizzard's Potential Balance Test Map Changes - Page 14

Forum Index > SC2 General
1113 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 12 13 14 15 16 56 Next
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
April 23 2013 06:25 GMT
#261
Isn't the oracle pretty quick already? I don't see how a faster Oracle would actually change anything, since they usually die because they're standing still, not because they can't move in time.
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
April 23 2013 06:26 GMT
#262
Little surprised no mention of the VR but I fell fine about this
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
April 23 2013 06:26 GMT
#263
It would be cool to have an Oracle Speed upgrade from the Fleet Bacon or something.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25078 Posts
April 23 2013 06:26 GMT
#264
On April 23 2013 15:23 Cloak wrote:
Apparently everyone hates the Oracle? And we have a lot of self-hating Protoss? It makes sense if you look at the DKs latest interview, he said: ZvZ Muta too good and Oracle is UP at higher levels. Only thing missing is Mine and Ultra mentions, Mine because they probably don't know how to deal with that yet and the meta is in flux, and Ultralisks I guess aren't priority at the moment?

We aren't self-hating Protoss, we're just sick of relying on ridiculously gimmicky play sometimes We still love our glorious homeland and lineage
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Lumi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1612 Posts
April 23 2013 06:27 GMT
#265
I'm looking for that airtoss / wm / speedvac nerf set pl0x.
twitter.com/lumigaming - DongRaeGu is the One True Dong - /r/onetruedong
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
April 23 2013 06:30 GMT
#266
On April 23 2013 15:00 convention wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 14:48 Rabiator wrote:
Both changes get a big and fat thumbs down from me ...

- Oracle is fast and powerful enough so that a greater movement speed seems to be a bit too much to keep the units safe. There needs to be RISK involved in everything and a skilled player can use an Oracle to bind more than its own resources worth of enemy units already. More movement speed would make this worse.

- Burrow has always been a great thing to use, but apart from making it free - which I am absolutely against - I dont think players will bother getting it, because there isnt much point in using it due to two reasons: a) the game is designed around massive armies and "nifty ambushes" are not useful and b) the game is designed around massive economy and replacement of units, so burrowing units to keep them safe during battle is a waste of time.

So oracles should be risky while terran drops are no longer risky?

Well then also nerf speedprisms, since a speedprism can fly through heavier defenses than a medivac (yes that is including their speed difference).

The problem is more that some people complain about terrans only dropping toss, but what else should a terran player do without godlike micro? My micro is fine for TvT (btw never had problems with hellbats in TvT, and nop I barely use them myself) and TvZ , in TvP I just don't have the micro to stutter step bio, EMP/snipe HTs and dodge storms, so I lose horribly (30% winrate and dropping atm). Now I am sure some do better, but for the bit more average player you are just royally fucked against a toss deathball. And since any early push is countered by planetary nexus there isnt much besides dropping you can do.

Also in every game I ever played a significant part of the community ran from whatever was strongest at that moment to the next FOTM. Yet across pretty much every league terran is still least played? How is that possible?

NEEDZMOAR
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Sweden1277 Posts
April 23 2013 06:31 GMT
#267
Id love to see more "safe"usages of oracles rather than supergimmicky proxy "gee I hope they wont scout me"-oracle play.
But I dont think buffing speed is the way to go.

as for the burrowbuff; cool, but why? If anything its going to promote early aggression/ more gimmicky play from Zerg and that goes against the zerg race-design in every single way imo :/.

oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
April 23 2013 06:32 GMT
#268
I think oracle buff is smart, but it should probably cost more in that case. Lots of changes I was hoping for that simply aren't in their minds right now, though. I don't think spore buffs change anything about ZvZ in effect.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
kubiks
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
France1328 Posts
April 23 2013 06:35 GMT
#269
On April 23 2013 14:48 GTPGlitch wrote:
p.s. To be frank that's wrong because if terran was the cost efficient race it wouldn't be M4 and M4VG in the non-mirrors and lategame units would actually be used. Also, zerg have 3 different ways to make free units, and the other races have a grand total of zero, as well as the vast majority of zerg units being much cheaper and equal or less supply than midgame counterparts from the other races


Terran got no free units ? What is your definition of "free units" ? Because I count 3 : mules (it's a unit that can be spawned for enregy), raven turrets and pdd....
Juanald you're my hero I miss you -> best troll ever on TL <3
dargul
Profile Joined May 2010
Russian Federation125 Posts
April 23 2013 06:35 GMT
#270
I really would prefer to see recall buff.
Decrease cast time or cost, because now no1 using recall at all. Even when retrieting Pros prefer to throw 2 time warps and run with whole army rather then do recall
In Stim We Trust
Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
April 23 2013 06:40 GMT
#271
On April 23 2013 15:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 15:23 Cloak wrote:
Apparently everyone hates the Oracle? And we have a lot of self-hating Protoss? It makes sense if you look at the DKs latest interview, he said: ZvZ Muta too good and Oracle is UP at higher levels. Only thing missing is Mine and Ultra mentions, Mine because they probably don't know how to deal with that yet and the meta is in flux, and Ultralisks I guess aren't priority at the moment?

We aren't self-hating Protoss, we're just sick of relying on ridiculously gimmicky play sometimes We still love our glorious homeland and lineage


The speed buff might not be optimal, but I'll be interested to see if they match it to or beat Phoenix/Mutas, because that can create some very interesting counterplay in PvP/PvZ. The proxy Stargate Oracle PvT will be unaffected, unless that 0.5-1.0s really matters.
The more you know, the less you understand.
NEEDZMOAR
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Sweden1277 Posts
April 23 2013 06:41 GMT
#272
On April 23 2013 15:35 kubiks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 14:48 GTPGlitch wrote:
p.s. To be frank that's wrong because if terran was the cost efficient race it wouldn't be M4 and M4VG in the non-mirrors and lategame units would actually be used. Also, zerg have 3 different ways to make free units, and the other races have a grand total of zero, as well as the vast majority of zerg units being much cheaper and equal or less supply than midgame counterparts from the other races


Terran got no free units ? What is your definition of "free units" ? Because I count 3 : mules (it's a unit that can be spawned for enregy), raven turrets and pdd....



Theres no such thing as a free unit however there are units you spend resources on and they gain cost efficiency over time... oh wait.. thats every unit...
BeyondCtrL
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden642 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-23 06:48:24
April 23 2013 06:46 GMT
#273
On April 23 2013 15:12 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 15:05 BeyondCtrL wrote:
On April 23 2013 14:55 Big J wrote:
On April 23 2013 14:33 BeyondCtrL wrote:
On April 23 2013 14:04 Big J wrote:
On April 23 2013 13:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:
On April 23 2013 13:47 Big J wrote:
On April 23 2013 13:38 BeyondCtrL wrote:
On April 23 2013 13:32 Big J wrote:
On April 23 2013 13:22 BeyondCtrL wrote:
@ Big J, I'm assuming your reply is a sarcastic one... :3


No, seriously. Tell me which Zerg ground army beats a Protoss ground army mostly consisting of Archons and Robo units. Immortals are cost and supplyefficient against any zerg unit if you have enough of them.


So you are asking if 10+ Immortals, Archons, HTs, Collosus and Gateway meat is cost effcient 1:1 vs Zerg? First Protoss is supposed to be cost efficient unit to unit by design, secondly you are creating a ridiculous composition which almost never happens. I'd love to see those 5 base mass Immortal, Archon, Collosus, Templar builds... because it's so easy to get to. And additionally how do you expect a Protoss that loses a Sky army to re-max on something like that?

The amount of Zerg tears post WoL is really amusing.


You lost me at "Protoss is suppoed to be costefficient". Because in Starcraft 2 with capped income that is equivalent to "Protoss is supposed to win".
And I'm not talking about a Protoss that loses a skyarmy. I'm talking purely about your comment that zerg ground beats protoss ground. So I ask again. How do you beat this composition with zerg ground.

Also: 350games "underwhelming" sample size? You know nothing about statistics...


You are creating unrealistic compositions and craving answers for them. How many games have we seen so far, in the WCS across the regions, where Zerg is just being dominated by Protoss in the Air and also being killed by the famous 10 Immortal + mass Archon + Collo + HT builds that hit at 9 min game time after the Protoss has saturated their 5th base...


Listen guy, you said in a theoretical argument about unit compositions that zerg ground beats protoss ground. I bring a theoretical example and you start telling me how this doesn't happen at prolevel.
Of course it doesn't happen. People who want to make money by winning are not so dumb to build ground units in such a scenario and go for mutalisks and broodlords instead. The closest scenarios to what I'm telling you are games like sos vs soo in Code S, with double robo mass immortal (10+), stormtemplar, colossus or San vs Courios in GSTL. And those were already far from close games.



Ya because soo and San played those games perfectly, right? It's as if they totally outplayed their opponents. There are games where players of even, or near even skill, can produce games where it's a rofl stomp. The reason why Stargate opening are favored over ground is because it produces better results over all. If you are suggesting that it's the other way around or that both frontlines are equally ridiculous then why aren't we seeing PvZ with a crushing stat like TvZ? Where in actuality it's nowhere close to that. When you favor the Stargate it implies that Protoss feel like the ground battle is less favorable, something which good Viper play has shown, enabling a roach/hydra comp to crush a robo based comp.

I just don't understand how you can only evaluate the balance of the game on just army vs. army basis, when the reality is that it's only a portion of the outcome and is a result of a whole game's worth of decisions prior to that. It's obvious that there are comps in the game that are very hard to beat, but arriving to them is really rare and very hard and nerfing the units that compose them weaken their ability to be viable in the earlier parts of the game which makes the MU into a bigger turtle fest. The reason the VR and Stargate units were focused on was because of how bad it was before, and not only that we have been in the same discussion with VRs in the beginning of WoL too; the eventual nerfs to which completely phased the unit out from the game, except in rare occasions (SKMC).


Did I say anything about balance? All I was saying is that Protoss ground stomps zerg ground in a theoretical scenario, similar to your 50 VR vs 100queen scenario. Stop putting words in my mouth. You started a theoretical arguement about compositions (your queen vs VR scenario) with wrong claims (Zerg ground>Protoss ground) and I replied.

The two games I pointed out were merely examples that it is not impossible to start building up such an ultimate grounddeathball if the Zerg doesn't take to the skies.


Wow, so facepalm, so you decide to start a discussion based off your loose interpretation. So what, you were imagining that I'm telling the guy to build 100 queens? I wasn't discussing a theoretical comp. I was discussing the comparison of the units 1:1 and 1:2 ratio, and considering that queens have transfuse that 1:2 is even less in response to a guy who doesn't even mention the unit. The Queen is a very cost efficient addition to a hydra comp to battle air heavy plays since it takes no larva and can be pumped out in greater numbers than VRs can. But good on ya, keep on cherry picking sentences out of context and making an argument out of them.


Which is a theoretical arguement, because we see this just as little as the mentioned deathball. You can't "just build queens" in such a real game scenario. It just doesn't happen. (using your argument why it is theoretical)


VRs do get used in comps, but they don't get massed singularly. There are plenty of games where Protoss do build around 10, maybe more, VRs and Stargate is a favored opening. The guy was saying that he keeps losing when he tries to go Hydra/Corrupter, yet there have been games where Zergs build around 6 Queens which actually begin to deal with VRs quite well in the early stages and allows them to transition into the later stages of the game. But ya, what I totally mean is that you should build 20 queens if your opponent has 10 VR.

You are already confusing the entire argument. You take out of context my meaning, then create a hypothetical situation which you want a hypothetical answer for, when the implication was the non Stargate, i.e, ground, armies were in favor of Zerg in real matches, which in fact they are in most cases. Not even gonna bother with replying to you about this anymore, I'm sure we both see each other as if we are talking to a wall.
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3598 Posts
April 23 2013 06:48 GMT
#274
my first thoughts:
- oracles are pretty fast right now. I don't think their speed is a problem, oracle harass seems to be perfectly doable with the current speed.
- it's good to see that they are thinking about zvz, maybe even stronger spores allow for earlier transitions to non-muta armies.
- burrow change - meh. Could be neat, but I think that good players will soon adapt to new zerg agression.
- why no changes to airtoss (i.e. void rays)? even though pros are getting better at dealing with them, they still seem to be like a too easy solution for lategame. (esp. vs. zerg) but maybe it's good to not adress this issue atm, because the game still feels pretty new.
first we make expand, then we defense it.
wongfeihung
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States763 Posts
April 23 2013 06:50 GMT
#275
We heard your feedback on changes such as Hydralisk AA damage increase, but we'd like to go smaller in changes if possible.

Oh god, no! Not my Carriers!

People don't like the idea of a faster Oracle? It sounds pretty exciting; more potential to pressure in the early game, and even better scouting in the mid-late game.
MalditoKyo
Profile Joined October 2010
France76 Posts
April 23 2013 06:53 GMT
#276
Ahahah buffing spore crawlers against mutas....really?
Once you hit 25 or more, spore crawlers melt to the mutas, and it's not like you can afford 5-6 infestors of 2/3 bases in the muta war to fungal the pack of mutas correctly.
Rainling
Profile Joined June 2011
United States456 Posts
April 23 2013 06:54 GMT
#277
Oracles feel gimmicky right now, they're not used except for envision in the late game and allins in the early game. Oracle harass is straightforward to defend against if it's scouted, and oracles scale terribly- their high dps, low health, low range, and low acceleration combine to make them significantly better in the early game than in the mid-late game.

I think the emphasis with oracle changes should be making their pulsar beam useful throughout the game rather than only early on in the game. If they had a significantly faster acceleration (right now it's 2, compared to the 3.25 of mutas) and movement speed (oracles 3.25, mutas 4), they would be more effective as harass units in the mid and late game. Oracle damage would need to be reduced to compensate, but I think more mobile oracles would be more viable throughout the game and more fun to use and watch.
Liquid`Ret
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Netherlands4511 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-23 06:59:16
April 23 2013 06:55 GMT
#278
wtf is a burrow change. I think blizzard maybe only watches GSL/GSTL because everywhere else terran is raping the shit out of everything, and in Korea the only thing that sometimes works is the same old 2/2 muta ling bane timing lol, and even there terran is dominating overall.

Lucifron, Happy, ForGG, Dayshi, Heromarine are all amazing players who deserve to win almost every teamleague and tournament they enter over everybody else. If you watch any of the popular terran streams (Demuslim/Byun/Polt) you simply don't see them lose.

wtf is a burrow change seriously
Team Liquid
papaz
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden4149 Posts
April 23 2013 06:55 GMT
#279
I just want tanks to be more viable in TvP. But that is a whole new expansion.
dargul
Profile Joined May 2010
Russian Federation125 Posts
April 23 2013 06:57 GMT
#280
On April 23 2013 15:53 MalditoKyo wrote:
Ahahah buffing spore crawlers against mutas....really?
Once you hit 25 or more, spore crawlers melt to the mutas, and it's not like you can afford 5-6 infestors of 2/3 bases in the muta war to fungal the pack of mutas correctly.


They can allways give splash to spores [image loading]
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