EPTBlizzard's Potential Balance Test Map Changes - Page 18
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
also quite suprised they are not thinking of a speedmedivac/hellbat change. guess they want to give the players a bit more time to get used to them before they make a change. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On April 23 2013 17:57 omnic wrote: That sounds pretty solid as terran where marauders are going to be good pretty much all game but what exactly are zergs supposed to do? queens and zerglings are not exactly great against hellbats in a mineral line. If zerg scouts a factory should they roach just in case of hellbat drops even though hydra/roach is bad vs mech? Pretty much yes  . Probably not the answer you were hoping for, but yeah I think you just need roaches, maybe on a 2-base timing mutas would be in time, but I think you just got to invest in a roach warren + few roaches. Good part is that roaches with speed are quite good against mech. Until he has a critical mass of siege tanks they aren't all that great against roaches. Alternative is banelings, they are also reasonable against hellbats. Lings are just a waste if he has them reasonably positioned. I guess queens could work if you got 3 or so in your base, but in the early game that might not be too realistic. Zerg indeed has no unit like marauders to slow them down early in the game. On the other hand zerg should have ovis in their attack path, so you shouldn't be surprised by them. Honestly most important part is imo taking out that medivac. Without medivac they are just very slow units that at best can deny you mining time. | ||
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Callynn
Netherlands917 Posts
The spore change - please yes. I am so f**king tired of muta vs muta in ZvZ - both to watch and to play. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 23 2013 18:01 SC2ShoWTimE wrote: disappointing oracle change-idea. instead they should decrease the damage, give it a bit more health/shields and maybe even increase the range by 1. it really sucks that 1 turret/spore shuts down the oracle completely what makes it feel like a "hope-he-has-no-defense-so-i-can-rape-his-entire-mineral-line" type of unit. i remember blizzard stating that the oracle should reward players with good micro and multitasking so they can harass with it through out the entire game. it simply doesnt fit that role atm. also quite suprised they are not thinking of a speedmedivac/hellbat change. guess they want to give the players a bit more time to get used to them before they make a change. That's why they buff the speed. There are always places that the oracle could harass. Yeah, you are not gonna get 10kills in 5seconds with it, just because your "skill" is so high. But you gotta get something done. Not to mention that the oracle is not just a harassing unit, but has one of the most powerful scouting abilities in the game and provides Protoss stargate tech with detection. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3667 Posts
IMO zvz was starting to become fine and people were already figuring out how to transition to infestor on the highest level, no need to buff spores even more. Oracle speed is ok I guess, but I feel like an mc can still do 100 times better with it than I ever could with his insane micro. Don't care much about the burrow change. The real issue is that there is no nerf to the actual op shit. Hellbats are way to cost efficient for only costing 100 mins, mines do friendly splash but don't splash each other (dafuq is that?), there is still no down side to using the booster (I still really like the idea of it costing energy each time you boost), and besides maps that you can split super well I still feel like end game skytoss is an issue in pvz. GJ blizzard ignoring the important things as always and possibly ruining zvz by overnerfing mutas (right now I don't wanna engage spores until I have a over a control group of mutas, am I supposed to mass up to like 40 now before I can engage spores?). Maybe randomly remove an upgrade again like siege mode for no apparent reason? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 23 2013 17:57 omnic wrote: That sounds pretty solid as terran where marauders are going to be good pretty much all game but what exactly are zergs supposed to do? queens and zerglings are not exactly great against hellbats in a mineral line. If zerg scouts a factory should they roach just in case of hellbat drops even though hydra/roach is bad vs mech? na, just 1 spine/spore+queen per mineral line and additional lings. Meanwhile spam swarm hosts against his frontline and then blind all tanks with vipers.  | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On April 23 2013 17:33 Sissors wrote: Regarding oracles: you can double their speed, it won't change much. Well higher speed means they can use envision better, but thats all. Why? Because oracles are so enormously dangerous already. So right now there are pretty much two scenarios: the defender didn't expect the oracles and sees some mineral line genocide. Or he did expect oracles and made sure his mineral line is 100% oracle proof, there is nothing in between. This is nonsense, speed matters quite a bit for the unit. Less need to proxy. Esier to escape muta, queens, stimmed marines etc. And most importantly you can chase workers much better. Just pulling your workers against oracles minimizes the damage pretty well, you only lose about 4 to 5 workers then while the stargate is a pretty huge investment with little other use. It's also just fun to use hallucinated oracles instead of phoenixes if the speed difference is negligible. Scaring away workers from mineral lines looks awesome. Besides if burrow cost is significantly reduced that is another easy answer to early oracle harass, oracles don't have energy to detect and attack in fast attacks anyway. It's sad to see mech or some of the other hardly used stuff isn't changed. Ie. hots will most likely be mostly MMM in TvZ/TvP during it's course. I had hoped they wouldn't resort to subtle balance changes so early but instead had the guts to still work on actual gameplay changes. If mech worked in PvT we would automatically see stargate play and aggressive multitasking harassing protoss in the matchup. I don't get why they just fix mech when they obviously don't shun ugly matchup-specific changes lately, if we can have biological mechanical units and +bio or +shield damage why don't they just introduce a specific change for TvP. I hate the matchup as P now because I just feel I do some gimmicky all-in or only defend till I have critical upgrades/mass and practically a-move over them. It's a frustating match for both sides that P can only defend basically and T has to micro much more lategame to win. | ||
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...what
England94 Posts
-.-' I like the oracle change though, in PvT it won't effect widow mine defence of mineral lines, but will help with mid-game oracles for envision, or whatever the unit tracker spell is called. | ||
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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
On April 23 2013 18:06 Big J wrote: That's why they buff the speed. There are always places that the oracle could harass. Yeah, you are not gonna get 10kills in 5seconds with it, just because your "skill" is so high. But you gotta get something done. Not to mention that the oracle is not just a harassing unit, but has one of the most powerful scouting abilities in the game and provides Protoss stargate tech with detection. a speed buff wont do anything and no, there are not always places where the oracle can harass. there is a reason why we never see oracles used vs zerg except for proxy stargate stuff and vs terran it is basically the same. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On April 23 2013 18:06 Big J wrote: That's why they buff the speed. There are always places that the oracle could harass. Yeah, you are not gonna get 10kills in 5seconds with it, just because your "skill" is so high. But you gotta get something done. Problem with the damage dealt by Oracles vs workers is that there is very little between no damage done and 10 kills. Either a mineral line is Oracle proof or it isn't. | ||
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omnic
United States188 Posts
On April 23 2013 18:06 Sissors wrote: Pretty much yes . Probably not the answer you were hoping for, but yeah I think you just need roaches, maybe on a 2-base timing mutas would be in time, but I think you just got to invest in a roach warren + few roaches. Good part is that roaches with speed are quite good against mech. Until he has a critical mass of siege tanks they aren't all that great against roaches. Alternative is banelings, they are also reasonable against hellbats. Lings are just a waste if he has them reasonably positioned. I guess queens could work if you got 3 or so in your base, but in the early game that might not be too realistic. Zerg indeed has no unit like marauders to slow them down early in the game. On the other hand zerg should have ovis in their attack path, so you shouldn't be surprised by them. Honestly most important part is imo taking out that medivac. Without medivac they are just very slow units that at best can deny you mining time. I'm not really worried about slowing them down. It's that while in the mineral line zerglings can't get a surround. Banelings could work but they won't really be cost effective against the hellbats and against a meching player banelings are not exactly something you would want to invest into. It's the same thing for roaches and while roaches can do well vs mech in small numbers what terran moves out with mech early on these days? It's always turtle on 2-3 bases + harassing with drops and if my reaction costs me more resources than it cost for the harasser than hasn't the harass worked anyways? This is assuming I react correctly and he does the drop. If he doesn't do the drop suddenly i've invested all these resources fairly early on that are borderline useless later if he just goes straight mech. IDK it seems coin flippy to me. On April 23 2013 18:09 Big J wrote: na, just 1 spine/spore+queen per mineral line and additional lings. Meanwhile spam swarm hosts against his frontline and then blind all tanks with vipers. This sounds like a better solution. | ||
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BerthaG
France74 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On April 23 2013 18:16 omnic wrote: I'm not really worried about slowing them down. It's that while in the mineral line zerglings can't get a surround. Banelings could work but they won't really be cost effective against the hellbats and against a meching player banelings are not exactly something you would want to invest into. It's the same thing for roaches and while roaches can do well vs mech in small numbers what terran moves out with mech early on these days? It's always turtle on 2-3 bases + harassing with drops and if my reaction costs me more resources than it cost for the harasser than hasn't the harass worked anyways? This is assuming I react correctly and he does the drop. If he doesn't do the drop suddenly i've invested all these resources fairly early on that are borderline useless later if he just goes straight mech. IDK it seems coin flippy to me. Personally vs zerg I go bio-mech (the old one, so with siege tanks, not bio-widow mine), so not too much experience with real mech vs zerg. If he doesn't do drops you are a zerg who is allowed to macro uncontested, be happy . Roaches are good in small numbers against mech, and you are right in bigger numbers they become worse. However blizzard did give you guys the viper, at which point roaches suddenly are good again vs mech. In the end you have to invest something to hold off his drops. I agree banelings aren't the best one, was more if you are going ling/bling/muta that until you got muta out you can probably best use banelings, at least a better idea than lings. This sounds like a better solution. Swarmhosts + blinding cloud is awesome. But it is also something that is a bit further in the game. Just make sure you don't cheap out too much on anti-air, you need to take down that medivac. | ||
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
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eXdeath
France66 Posts
So maybe a proper buff would be to make it more mineral heavy like 200/100 instead of 150/150? I like the idea of making Oracles lasting more though, I wish they could be used as a map control/scouting unit, picking lings and marines here and there on the map, and not just a worker wrecker unit. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On April 23 2013 18:06 Big J wrote: That's why they buff the speed. There are always places that the oracle could harass. Yeah, you are not gonna get 10kills in 5seconds with it, just because your "skill" is so high. But you gotta get something done. Not to mention that the oracle is not just a harassing unit, but has one of the most powerful scouting abilities in the game and provides Protoss stargate tech with detection. Ah yes, I agree. I think it should be mentioned that the Oracle can also harass outside of a mineral line. At least in my (T) latest game against Protoss, my opponent really made a great effort being a total prick, sniping my scv as they were building infrastructure, or single marines as they were produced... <.< | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
The answer is obviously that mutas are one of the best harassing unit of the game, as well as more than decent fighters because of their speed ability to dodge skill aoe shots. So they need to adress the fighting capabilities. Best way would be to decrease the hp by something like 10-20%. Mutas would still be highly effective harassing units but not so much of a beefy fighting unit anymore. | ||
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E.L.V.I.S
Belgium458 Posts
Let's do this!! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23792 Posts
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