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Blizzard's Potential Balance Test Map Changes - Page 18

Forum Index > SC2 General
1113 CommentsPost a Reply
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mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
April 23 2013 09:01 GMT
#341
Judging from what I see in top level play and personal experience in the past, all of these changes are good.
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
SC2ShoWTimE
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany722 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-23 09:02:30
April 23 2013 09:01 GMT
#342
disappointing oracle change-idea. instead they should decrease the damage, give it a bit more health/shields and maybe even increase the range by 1. it really sucks that 1 turret/spore shuts down the oracle completely what makes it feel like a "hope-he-has-no-defense-so-i-can-rape-his-entire-mineral-line" type of unit. i remember blizzard stating that the oracle should reward players with good micro and multitasking so they can harass with it throughout the entire game. it simply doesnt fit that role atm.

also quite suprised they are not thinking of a speedmedivac/hellbat change. guess they want to give the players a bit more time to get used to them before they make a change.
Progamer
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
April 23 2013 09:06 GMT
#343
On April 23 2013 17:57 omnic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 17:51 Sissors wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:38 omnic wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:33 Sissors wrote:
Last fellow terran who used them against me killed 4-5 SCVs for losing 4 medivacs + their hellbats.

You shut down 4 medivacs full of hellbats and only lost 4-5 scvs? What league are you in and when did these hellbats arrive?

Sorry that wasn't completely clear, they didnt all arrive at once, first two-times a single medivac, than once two medivacs. Still wouldn't call it a good trade for him though. They arrived at fairly normal timing for hellbat drop, dunno when exactly. And masters league.

Just a matter of pulling SCVs in time, having at least one missile turret, but preferably more (in case of early drops more isn't realistic, but a widow is then nice), and marauders with concussive shells. They are already quite slow with piss poor range, but when you got marauders with concussive shells kiting them can be done by a bronze leaguer. So then it just is a matter of making sure his medivac has a limitted life span.

Of course I have also lost from hellbat drops, but that teached me to adapt: a few marines are not a defense against hellbat drops.


That sounds pretty solid as terran where marauders are going to be good pretty much all game but what exactly are zergs supposed to do? queens and zerglings are not exactly great against hellbats in a mineral line. If zerg scouts a factory should they roach just in case of hellbat drops even though hydra/roach is bad vs mech?

Pretty much yes . Probably not the answer you were hoping for, but yeah I think you just need roaches, maybe on a 2-base timing mutas would be in time, but I think you just got to invest in a roach warren + few roaches.

Good part is that roaches with speed are quite good against mech. Until he has a critical mass of siege tanks they aren't all that great against roaches. Alternative is banelings, they are also reasonable against hellbats. Lings are just a waste if he has them reasonably positioned. I guess queens could work if you got 3 or so in your base, but in the early game that might not be too realistic.

Zerg indeed has no unit like marauders to slow them down early in the game. On the other hand zerg should have ovis in their attack path, so you shouldn't be surprised by them. Honestly most important part is imo taking out that medivac. Without medivac they are just very slow units that at best can deny you mining time.
Callynn
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands917 Posts
April 23 2013 09:06 GMT
#344
The Oracle speed increase could be really devastating for the lower leagues who have trouble dealing with cheese in the first place. A good mechanical player can have an oracle out at 6:00. Increase their speed and a player's eco could be dead in seconds.

The spore change - please yes. I am so f**king tired of muta vs muta in ZvZ - both to watch and to play.
Comparing BW with SCII is like comparing a beautiful three-master sailing ship with a modern battlecruiser. Both are beautiful in their own way, both perform the same task, but they are worlds apart in how they are built and how they are steered.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 23 2013 09:06 GMT
#345
On April 23 2013 18:01 SC2ShoWTimE wrote:
disappointing oracle change-idea. instead they should decrease the damage, give it a bit more health/shields and maybe even increase the range by 1. it really sucks that 1 turret/spore shuts down the oracle completely what makes it feel like a "hope-he-has-no-defense-so-i-can-rape-his-entire-mineral-line" type of unit. i remember blizzard stating that the oracle should reward players with good micro and multitasking so they can harass with it through out the entire game. it simply doesnt fit that role atm.

also quite suprised they are not thinking of a speedmedivac/hellbat change. guess they want to give the players a bit more time to get used to them before they make a change.


That's why they buff the speed. There are always places that the oracle could harass. Yeah, you are not gonna get 10kills in 5seconds with it, just because your "skill" is so high. But you gotta get something done.
Not to mention that the oracle is not just a harassing unit, but has one of the most powerful scouting abilities in the game and provides Protoss stargate tech with detection.
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3682 Posts
April 23 2013 09:08 GMT
#346
Aehm I don't get how this does anything?
IMO zvz was starting to become fine and people were already figuring out how to transition to infestor on the highest level, no need to buff spores even more.
Oracle speed is ok I guess, but I feel like an mc can still do 100 times better with it than I ever could with his insane micro.
Don't care much about the burrow change. The real issue is that there is no nerf to the actual op shit. Hellbats are way to cost efficient for only costing 100 mins, mines do friendly splash but don't splash each other (dafuq is that?), there is still no down side to using the booster (I still really like the idea of it costing energy each time you boost), and besides maps that you can split super well I still feel like end game skytoss is an issue in pvz.

GJ blizzard ignoring the important things as always and possibly ruining zvz by overnerfing mutas (right now I don't wanna engage spores until I have a over a control group of mutas, am I supposed to mass up to like 40 now before I can engage spores?). Maybe randomly remove an upgrade again like siege mode for no apparent reason?
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 23 2013 09:09 GMT
#347
On April 23 2013 17:57 omnic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 17:51 Sissors wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:38 omnic wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:33 Sissors wrote:
Last fellow terran who used them against me killed 4-5 SCVs for losing 4 medivacs + their hellbats.

You shut down 4 medivacs full of hellbats and only lost 4-5 scvs? What league are you in and when did these hellbats arrive?

Sorry that wasn't completely clear, they didnt all arrive at once, first two-times a single medivac, than once two medivacs. Still wouldn't call it a good trade for him though. They arrived at fairly normal timing for hellbat drop, dunno when exactly. And masters league.

Just a matter of pulling SCVs in time, having at least one missile turret, but preferably more (in case of early drops more isn't realistic, but a widow is then nice), and marauders with concussive shells. They are already quite slow with piss poor range, but when you got marauders with concussive shells kiting them can be done by a bronze leaguer. So then it just is a matter of making sure his medivac has a limitted life span.

Of course I have also lost from hellbat drops, but that teached me to adapt: a few marines are not a defense against hellbat drops.


That sounds pretty solid as terran where marauders are going to be good pretty much all game but what exactly are zergs supposed to do? queens and zerglings are not exactly great against hellbats in a mineral line. If zerg scouts a factory should they roach just in case of hellbat drops even though hydra/roach is bad vs mech?


na, just 1 spine/spore+queen per mineral line and additional lings. Meanwhile spam swarm hosts against his frontline and then blind all tanks with vipers.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
April 23 2013 09:11 GMT
#348
On April 23 2013 17:33 Sissors wrote:



Regarding oracles: you can double their speed, it won't change much. Well higher speed means they can use envision better, but thats all. Why? Because oracles are so enormously dangerous already. So right now there are pretty much two scenarios: the defender didn't expect the oracles and sees some mineral line genocide. Or he did expect oracles and made sure his mineral line is 100% oracle proof, there is nothing in between.


This is nonsense, speed matters quite a bit for the unit.
Less need to proxy. Esier to escape muta, queens, stimmed marines etc.
And most importantly you can chase workers much better. Just pulling your workers against oracles minimizes the damage pretty well, you only lose about 4 to 5 workers then while the stargate is a pretty huge investment with little other use.
It's also just fun to use hallucinated oracles instead of phoenixes if the speed difference is negligible. Scaring away workers from mineral lines looks awesome.

Besides if burrow cost is significantly reduced that is another easy answer to early oracle harass, oracles don't have energy to detect and attack in fast attacks anyway.


It's sad to see mech or some of the other hardly used stuff isn't changed. Ie. hots will most likely be mostly MMM in TvZ/TvP during it's course. I had hoped they wouldn't resort to subtle balance changes so early but instead had the guts to still work on actual gameplay changes.
If mech worked in PvT we would automatically see stargate play and aggressive multitasking harassing protoss in the matchup. I don't get why they just fix mech when they obviously don't shun ugly matchup-specific changes lately, if we can have biological mechanical units and +bio or +shield damage why don't they just introduce a specific change for TvP. I hate the matchup as P now because I just feel I do some gimmicky all-in or only defend till I have critical upgrades/mass and practically a-move over them. It's a frustating match for both sides that P can only defend basically and T has to micro much more lategame to win.
...what
Profile Joined April 2011
England94 Posts
April 23 2013 09:12 GMT
#349
the burrow change makes sense because what we really need is more cheese / allins from zerg players

-.-'

I like the oracle change though, in PvT it won't effect widow mine defence of mineral lines, but will help with mid-game oracles for envision, or whatever the unit tracker spell is called.
SC2ShoWTimE
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany722 Posts
April 23 2013 09:13 GMT
#350
On April 23 2013 18:06 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 18:01 SC2ShoWTimE wrote:
disappointing oracle change-idea. instead they should decrease the damage, give it a bit more health/shields and maybe even increase the range by 1. it really sucks that 1 turret/spore shuts down the oracle completely what makes it feel like a "hope-he-has-no-defense-so-i-can-rape-his-entire-mineral-line" type of unit. i remember blizzard stating that the oracle should reward players with good micro and multitasking so they can harass with it through out the entire game. it simply doesnt fit that role atm.

also quite suprised they are not thinking of a speedmedivac/hellbat change. guess they want to give the players a bit more time to get used to them before they make a change.


That's why they buff the speed. There are always places that the oracle could harass. Yeah, you are not gonna get 10kills in 5seconds with it, just because your "skill" is so high. But you gotta get something done.
Not to mention that the oracle is not just a harassing unit, but has one of the most powerful scouting abilities in the game and provides Protoss stargate tech with detection.


a speed buff wont do anything and no, there are not always places where the oracle can harass. there is a reason why we never see oracles used vs zerg except for proxy stargate stuff and vs terran it is basically the same.
Progamer
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
April 23 2013 09:14 GMT
#351
On April 23 2013 18:06 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 18:01 SC2ShoWTimE wrote:
disappointing oracle change-idea. instead they should decrease the damage, give it a bit more health/shields and maybe even increase the range by 1. it really sucks that 1 turret/spore shuts down the oracle completely what makes it feel like a "hope-he-has-no-defense-so-i-can-rape-his-entire-mineral-line" type of unit. i remember blizzard stating that the oracle should reward players with good micro and multitasking so they can harass with it through out the entire game. it simply doesnt fit that role atm.

also quite suprised they are not thinking of a speedmedivac/hellbat change. guess they want to give the players a bit more time to get used to them before they make a change.


That's why they buff the speed. There are always places that the oracle could harass. Yeah, you are not gonna get 10kills in 5seconds with it, just because your "skill" is so high. But you gotta get something done.

Problem with the damage dealt by Oracles vs workers is that there is very little between no damage done and 10 kills. Either a mineral line is Oracle proof or it isn't.
omnic
Profile Joined July 2010
United States188 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-23 09:19:18
April 23 2013 09:16 GMT
#352
On April 23 2013 18:06 Sissors wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 17:57 omnic wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:51 Sissors wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:38 omnic wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:33 Sissors wrote:
Last fellow terran who used them against me killed 4-5 SCVs for losing 4 medivacs + their hellbats.

You shut down 4 medivacs full of hellbats and only lost 4-5 scvs? What league are you in and when did these hellbats arrive?

Sorry that wasn't completely clear, they didnt all arrive at once, first two-times a single medivac, than once two medivacs. Still wouldn't call it a good trade for him though. They arrived at fairly normal timing for hellbat drop, dunno when exactly. And masters league.

Just a matter of pulling SCVs in time, having at least one missile turret, but preferably more (in case of early drops more isn't realistic, but a widow is then nice), and marauders with concussive shells. They are already quite slow with piss poor range, but when you got marauders with concussive shells kiting them can be done by a bronze leaguer. So then it just is a matter of making sure his medivac has a limitted life span.

Of course I have also lost from hellbat drops, but that teached me to adapt: a few marines are not a defense against hellbat drops.


That sounds pretty solid as terran where marauders are going to be good pretty much all game but what exactly are zergs supposed to do? queens and zerglings are not exactly great against hellbats in a mineral line. If zerg scouts a factory should they roach just in case of hellbat drops even though hydra/roach is bad vs mech?

Pretty much yes . Probably not the answer you were hoping for, but yeah I think you just need roaches, maybe on a 2-base timing mutas would be in time, but I think you just got to invest in a roach warren + few roaches.

Good part is that roaches with speed are quite good against mech. Until he has a critical mass of siege tanks they aren't all that great against roaches. Alternative is banelings, they are also reasonable against hellbats. Lings are just a waste if he has them reasonably positioned. I guess queens could work if you got 3 or so in your base, but in the early game that might not be too realistic.

Zerg indeed has no unit like marauders to slow them down early in the game. On the other hand zerg should have ovis in their attack path, so you shouldn't be surprised by them. Honestly most important part is imo taking out that medivac. Without medivac they are just very slow units that at best can deny you mining time.


I'm not really worried about slowing them down. It's that while in the mineral line zerglings can't get a surround. Banelings could work but they won't really be cost effective against the hellbats and against a meching player banelings are not exactly something you would want to invest into. It's the same thing for roaches and while roaches can do well vs mech in small numbers what terran moves out with mech early on these days? It's always turtle on 2-3 bases + harassing with drops and if my reaction costs me more resources than it cost for the harasser than hasn't the harass worked anyways? This is assuming I react correctly and he does the drop. If he doesn't do the drop suddenly i've invested all these resources fairly early on that are borderline useless later if he just goes straight mech. IDK it seems coin flippy to me.

On April 23 2013 18:09 Big J wrote:

na, just 1 spine/spore+queen per mineral line and additional lings. Meanwhile spam swarm hosts against his frontline and then blind all tanks with vipers.

This sounds like a better solution.
BerthaG
Profile Joined December 2012
France74 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-23 09:18:17
April 23 2013 09:17 GMT
#353
Something come to my mind:I really hope that oracle will be slower than phenix. Otherwise PvP will be shit.
Never surrender
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-23 09:24:32
April 23 2013 09:21 GMT
#354
On April 23 2013 18:16 omnic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 18:06 Sissors wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:57 omnic wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:51 Sissors wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:38 omnic wrote:
On April 23 2013 17:33 Sissors wrote:
Last fellow terran who used them against me killed 4-5 SCVs for losing 4 medivacs + their hellbats.

You shut down 4 medivacs full of hellbats and only lost 4-5 scvs? What league are you in and when did these hellbats arrive?

Sorry that wasn't completely clear, they didnt all arrive at once, first two-times a single medivac, than once two medivacs. Still wouldn't call it a good trade for him though. They arrived at fairly normal timing for hellbat drop, dunno when exactly. And masters league.

Just a matter of pulling SCVs in time, having at least one missile turret, but preferably more (in case of early drops more isn't realistic, but a widow is then nice), and marauders with concussive shells. They are already quite slow with piss poor range, but when you got marauders with concussive shells kiting them can be done by a bronze leaguer. So then it just is a matter of making sure his medivac has a limitted life span.

Of course I have also lost from hellbat drops, but that teached me to adapt: a few marines are not a defense against hellbat drops.


That sounds pretty solid as terran where marauders are going to be good pretty much all game but what exactly are zergs supposed to do? queens and zerglings are not exactly great against hellbats in a mineral line. If zerg scouts a factory should they roach just in case of hellbat drops even though hydra/roach is bad vs mech?

Pretty much yes . Probably not the answer you were hoping for, but yeah I think you just need roaches, maybe on a 2-base timing mutas would be in time, but I think you just got to invest in a roach warren + few roaches.

Good part is that roaches with speed are quite good against mech. Until he has a critical mass of siege tanks they aren't all that great against roaches. Alternative is banelings, they are also reasonable against hellbats. Lings are just a waste if he has them reasonably positioned. I guess queens could work if you got 3 or so in your base, but in the early game that might not be too realistic.

Zerg indeed has no unit like marauders to slow them down early in the game. On the other hand zerg should have ovis in their attack path, so you shouldn't be surprised by them. Honestly most important part is imo taking out that medivac. Without medivac they are just very slow units that at best can deny you mining time.


I'm not really worried about slowing them down. It's that while in the mineral line zerglings can't get a surround. Banelings could work but they won't really be cost effective against the hellbats and against a meching player banelings are not exactly something you would want to invest into. It's the same thing for roaches and while roaches can do well vs mech in small numbers what terran moves out with mech early on these days? It's always turtle on 2-3 bases + harassing with drops and if my reaction costs me more resources than it cost for the harasser than hasn't the harass worked anyways? This is assuming I react correctly and he does the drop. If he doesn't do the drop suddenly i've invested all these resources fairly early on that are borderline useless later if he just goes straight mech. IDK it seems coin flippy to me.

Personally vs zerg I go bio-mech (the old one, so with siege tanks, not bio-widow mine), so not too much experience with real mech vs zerg.

If he doesn't do drops you are a zerg who is allowed to macro uncontested, be happy . Roaches are good in small numbers against mech, and you are right in bigger numbers they become worse. However blizzard did give you guys the viper, at which point roaches suddenly are good again vs mech.

In the end you have to invest something to hold off his drops. I agree banelings aren't the best one, was more if you are going ling/bling/muta that until you got muta out you can probably best use banelings, at least a better idea than lings.


This sounds like a better solution.

Swarmhosts + blinding cloud is awesome. But it is also something that is a bit further in the game. Just make sure you don't cheap out too much on anti-air, you need to take down that medivac.
BlackCompany
Profile Joined August 2012
Germany8388 Posts
April 23 2013 09:30 GMT
#355
I like the fact that they are taking things slowly. I dont want another WoL where they have no clue what to do and either nerf things into uselessness or just do random things ( barracks/bunker anyone?). If some of the issues still arise in a couple of mnths (for example medivac speed/voidrays) they can try adjusting things. But at first let th players try to figure out something themselves, maybe everything gets solved!
eXdeath
Profile Joined August 2011
France66 Posts
April 23 2013 09:36 GMT
#356
I think the problem with the Oracle is the cost. It's a powerful unit but very expensive, and if you don't do damage then you're way behind in tech (for example, you can't have aoe fast enough behind a failed oracle opening vs T).
So maybe a proper buff would be to make it more mineral heavy like 200/100 instead of 150/150?

I like the idea of making Oracles lasting more though, I wish they could be used as a map control/scouting unit, picking lings and marines here and there on the map, and not just a worker wrecker unit.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
April 23 2013 09:49 GMT
#357
On April 23 2013 18:06 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2013 18:01 SC2ShoWTimE wrote:
disappointing oracle change-idea. instead they should decrease the damage, give it a bit more health/shields and maybe even increase the range by 1. it really sucks that 1 turret/spore shuts down the oracle completely what makes it feel like a "hope-he-has-no-defense-so-i-can-rape-his-entire-mineral-line" type of unit. i remember blizzard stating that the oracle should reward players with good micro and multitasking so they can harass with it through out the entire game. it simply doesnt fit that role atm.

also quite suprised they are not thinking of a speedmedivac/hellbat change. guess they want to give the players a bit more time to get used to them before they make a change.


That's why they buff the speed. There are always places that the oracle could harass. Yeah, you are not gonna get 10kills in 5seconds with it, just because your "skill" is so high. But you gotta get something done.
Not to mention that the oracle is not just a harassing unit, but has one of the most powerful scouting abilities in the game and provides Protoss stargate tech with detection.


Ah yes, I agree. I think it should be mentioned that the Oracle can also harass outside of a mineral line.
At least in my (T) latest game against Protoss, my opponent really made a great effort being a total prick, sniping my scv as they were building infrastructure, or single marines as they were produced... <.<
TigerKarl
Profile Joined November 2010
1757 Posts
April 23 2013 09:52 GMT
#358
It's just a shame that they don't realize that they onesidedly buffed a unit that was perfectly viable in every matchup to make for more exciting gameplay, without considering to decrease some of it's strength in return. That's horrible game design.
The answer is obviously that mutas are one of the best harassing unit of the game, as well as more than decent fighters because of their speed ability to dodge skill aoe shots. So they need to adress the fighting capabilities. Best way would be to decrease the hp by something like 10-20%. Mutas would still be highly effective harassing units but not so much of a beefy fighting unit anymore.
E.L.V.I.S
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium458 Posts
April 23 2013 09:53 GMT
#359
I think buffing anti air attack from hydras would make zerg the strongest race Let's do this!!
http://twitch.tv/maggrig | @SC2ELVIS | http://www.facebook.com/sc2ELVIS
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25257 Posts
April 23 2013 09:54 GMT
#360
Why do you want Zerg to be the strongest race? God, the latter days of WoL weren't enough? Greedy bastards :p
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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