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On April 23 2013 20:18 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 20:16 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 20:05 scypio wrote:On April 23 2013 15:55 Liquid`Ret wrote:
wtf is a burrow change. I think blizzard maybe only watches GSL/GSTL because everywhere else terran is raping the shit out of everything, and in Korea the only thing that sometimes works is the same old 2/2 muta ling bane timing lol, and even there terran is dominating overall.
Lucifron, Happy, ForGG, Dayshi, Heromarine are all amazing players who deserve to win almost every teamleague and tournament they enter over everybody else. If you watch any of the popular terran streams (Demuslim/Byun/Polt) you simply don't see them lose.
wtf is a burrow change seriously Perhaps they do not meet the top zergs on the ladder. The good ones who compete online do not seem to be that worried with balance after all...  Nerchio wins GO4SC2 #281 (7th April) with Liquid Snute as runner-up Hyun won ZOTAC NA #97 (13th April) Liquid TLO, won ZOTAC EU #152 (14th April) Liquid Snute won ZOTAC EU #153 (21st April) with Nerchio as the runner-up. sYz wins GO4SC2 #285 (21th April) with TomikuS as runner-up This does not look all that bad to me  The problem is that the "lazy" zergs feel offended and they want their easy wol times back. You got to work for your win now as zerg, and I'm actually liking that, sorry. Widow mines finally make zergs micro too, so tvz is now micro vs micro, which is awesome. And to ret: - Demuslim didn't even qualify for WCS NA, so yes, he is losing. - Polt was dominating in wol, and he is now dominating in hots. He is just good. Same for byun. he effing beat JD 2-0 and barely lost to revival, lol.
And your point is ? Demuslim is a baddie or something ? Because JD is overhyped outside teamleagues, sleep deprived and with latency issues. And by the way expecting ByuN or Polt to not crush the NA ladder is a bit naive.
I am sure you can have great insight on the game, i think you should maybe post a thread on detail of what is wrong with the match ups, and why it's bad for the game.
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I'm really disappointed in TL today. Pertaining to the fact that most people are thumbs downing the oracle speed buff. You obviously do not play protoss and try to use oracles enough. An oracle is shut down by a cannon/spore/turret. An oracle costs 150/150. An oracle requires stargate tech (very important for PvT wherein stargate tech is essentially useless after terrans know you are going oracles, unless you commit to phoenix which is not that great vs bio. An oracle is shutdown by any form of army, or anti air unit. It is completely useless in an army, hard to actually harass with if scouted or once used. It is a very VERY heavy investment early game. To be honest I think some people are just fucking whining or upset because of them losing to oracle proxies early game in PvT or PvP or some other shit, they clearly do not have an educated opinion on the oracle.
Oh and by the way I'm a Grandmaster protoss player if you think I don't know what im talking about. Just think a bit longer on the oracle as a unit, not just as a thing that kills workers really fast.
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So the problem is that a mirror MU is "boring to watch" because it has organically evolved to the current metagame due to upgrades and changes in HotS.
Wow, that is surely a big problem... Maybe they should change the mutas' textures and add some glitter, so they look prettier.
PS: Yes, I'm biased about this, but I'm amazed that people complains about Lucifron winning because terran is OP, when Luci was winning even when all terrans were complaining in WoL. Just sayin'.
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On April 23 2013 20:18 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 20:16 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 20:05 scypio wrote:On April 23 2013 15:55 Liquid`Ret wrote:
wtf is a burrow change. I think blizzard maybe only watches GSL/GSTL because everywhere else terran is raping the shit out of everything, and in Korea the only thing that sometimes works is the same old 2/2 muta ling bane timing lol, and even there terran is dominating overall.
Lucifron, Happy, ForGG, Dayshi, Heromarine are all amazing players who deserve to win almost every teamleague and tournament they enter over everybody else. If you watch any of the popular terran streams (Demuslim/Byun/Polt) you simply don't see them lose.
wtf is a burrow change seriously Perhaps they do not meet the top zergs on the ladder. The good ones who compete online do not seem to be that worried with balance after all... Nerchio wins GO4SC2 #281 (7th April) with Liquid Snute as runner-up Hyun won ZOTAC NA #97 (13th April) Liquid TLO, won ZOTAC EU #152 (14th April) Liquid Snute won ZOTAC EU #153 (21st April) with Nerchio as the runner-up. sYz wins GO4SC2 #285 (21th April) with TomikuS as runner-up This does not look all that bad to me The problem is that the "lazy" zergs feel offended and they want their easy wol times back. You got to work for your win now as zerg, and I'm actually liking that, sorry. Widow mines finally make zergs micro too, so tvz is now micro vs micro, which is awesome. And to ret: - Demuslim didn't even qualify for WCS NA, so yes, he is losing. - Polt was dominating in wol, and he is now dominating in hots. He is just good. Same for byun. he effing beat JD 2-0 and barely lost to revival, lol.
The issue is that foreign Zergs have an highly inflated view of themselves, and a more or less hidden contempt for foreign Terrans, all this based on the past WoL results.
What you have to acknowledge is that post infestor/queen patch Zerg was the best WoL race and Terran the worse.
Therefore, the fact that foreign Zergs used to smash foreign Terrans was not an indicator of anything.
Besides, JD is nothing special in Sc2, he is not even code A material.
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On April 23 2013 20:26 Skiblet wrote:
I'm really disappointed in TL today. Pertaining to the fact that most people are thumbs downing the oracle speed buff. You obviously do not play protoss and try to use oracles enough. An oracle is shut down by a cannon/spore/turret. An oracle costs 150/150. An oracle requires stargate tech (very important for PvT wherein stargate tech is essentially useless after terrans know you are going oracles, unless you commit to phoenix which is not that great vs bio. An oracle is shutdown by any form of army, or anti air unit. It is completely useless in an army, hard to actually harass with if scouted or once used. It is a very VERY heavy investment early game. To be honest I think some people are just fucking whining or upset because of them losing to oracle proxies early game in PvT or PvP or some other shit, they clearly do not have an educated opinion on the oracle.
Oh and by the way I'm a Grandmaster protoss player if you think I don't know what im talking about. Just think a bit longer on the oracle as a unit, not just as a thing that kills workers really fast.
I agree with most of it, but not with "It is completely useless in an army". You should watch HasuObs use one or two oracles late game to have constant vision of the enemy's army. I really think revelation is a great spell late game, a great combination with the Tempest and still underused.
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good thing they're helping the other races deal with skytoss by... buffing... the.... oracle. I'm also surprised they're not seriously looking into the widow mine,
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Oracle buff? I was expecting a nerf, but ok.
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On April 23 2013 20:33 KazmA wrote:
good thing they're helping the other races deal with skytoss by... buffing... the.... oracle. I'm also surprised they're not seriously looking into the widow mine,
If i would balance i would try make widow mines visible see how that goes. Its just not skill involved and to unpredictable to have units like that invisible. Thats why zvt is not fun right now. The dmg is to good but you can avoid that and reward good micro.
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On April 23 2013 20:32 Eviscerador wrote:
PS: Yes, I'm biased about this, but I'm amazed that people complains about Lucifron winning because terran is OP, when Luci was winning even when all terrans were complaining in WoL. Just sayin'.
Yeah it's pretty funny that ret uses LucifroN as an example of terran imbalance. LucifroN is as talented as it gets as far as foreigners are concerned.
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On April 23 2013 20:33 KazmA wrote:
good thing they're helping the other races deal with skytoss by... buffing... the.... oracle. I'm also surprised they're not seriously looking into the widow mine,
Because Terrans can't handle skytoss......
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On April 23 2013 20:40 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 20:32 Eviscerador wrote:
PS: Yes, I'm biased about this, but I'm amazed that people complains about Lucifron winning because terran is OP, when Luci was winning even when all terrans were complaining in WoL. Just sayin'. Yeah it's pretty funny that ret uses LucifroN as an example of terran imbalance. LucifroN is as talented as it gets as far as foreigners are concerned.
He beat Scarlett 3-0 at one of the last WoL events. Lucifron is just a monster, but I am sure actually Ret agrees.
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On April 23 2013 20:26 Skiblet wrote:
I'm really disappointed in TL today. Pertaining to the fact that most people are thumbs downing the oracle speed buff. You obviously do not play protoss and try to use oracles enough. An oracle is shut down by a cannon/spore/turret.
And I am really dissapointed a GM apparently thinks increasing oracle speed is going to help it against cannons/spores/turrets? It won't be any better for harrasment since that is still shut down by a static defenses. It only makes them better in their cheesy role and won't do much to make them better for harrasment afterwards.
The same would btw be true if you increase their damage output for example. Right now they are already so lethal that everyone who is afraid of oracles will make his mineral line 100% oracle proof, so also if they would increase damage that wouldn't make them better for worker harrasment.
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still no love for the siege tanks? they were atrociously nerfed due to the stupid map pool of wol beta, and forgotten completely...i love siege, i refuse to play this game until they buff them
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On April 23 2013 20:32 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 20:18 Liquid`Ret wrote:On April 23 2013 20:16 Snowbear wrote:On April 23 2013 20:05 scypio wrote:On April 23 2013 15:55 Liquid`Ret wrote:
wtf is a burrow change. I think blizzard maybe only watches GSL/GSTL because everywhere else terran is raping the shit out of everything, and in Korea the only thing that sometimes works is the same old 2/2 muta ling bane timing lol, and even there terran is dominating overall.
Lucifron, Happy, ForGG, Dayshi, Heromarine are all amazing players who deserve to win almost every teamleague and tournament they enter over everybody else. If you watch any of the popular terran streams (Demuslim/Byun/Polt) you simply don't see them lose.
wtf is a burrow change seriously Perhaps they do not meet the top zergs on the ladder. The good ones who compete online do not seem to be that worried with balance after all... Nerchio wins GO4SC2 #281 (7th April) with Liquid Snute as runner-up Hyun won ZOTAC NA #97 (13th April) Liquid TLO, won ZOTAC EU #152 (14th April) Liquid Snute won ZOTAC EU #153 (21st April) with Nerchio as the runner-up. sYz wins GO4SC2 #285 (21th April) with TomikuS as runner-up This does not look all that bad to me The problem is that the "lazy" zergs feel offended and they want their easy wol times back. You got to work for your win now as zerg, and I'm actually liking that, sorry. Widow mines finally make zergs micro too, so tvz is now micro vs micro, which is awesome. And to ret: - Demuslim didn't even qualify for WCS NA, so yes, he is losing. - Polt was dominating in wol, and he is now dominating in hots. He is just good. Same for byun. he effing beat JD 2-0 and barely lost to revival, lol. The issue is that foreign Zergs have an highly inflated view of themselves, and a more or less hidden contempt for foreign Terrans, all this based on the past WoL results. What you have to acknowledge is that post infestor/queen patch Zerg was the best WoL race and Terran the worse. Therefore, the fact that foreign Zergs used to smash foreign Terrans was not an indicator of anything. Besides, JD is nothing special in Sc2, he is not even code A material.
if you think about it, no one is really special in sc2, i'm wondering, why...
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On April 23 2013 20:26 Skiblet wrote:
I'm really disappointed in TL today. Pertaining to the fact that most people are thumbs downing the oracle speed buff. You obviously do not play protoss and try to use oracles enough. An oracle is shut down by a cannon/spore/turret. An oracle costs 150/150. An oracle requires stargate tech (very important for PvT wherein stargate tech is essentially useless after terrans know you are going oracles, unless you commit to phoenix which is not that great vs bio. An oracle is shutdown by any form of army, or anti air unit. It is completely useless in an army, hard to actually harass with if scouted or once used. It is a very VERY heavy investment early game. To be honest I think some people are just fucking whining or upset because of them losing to oracle proxies early game in PvT or PvP or some other shit, they clearly do not have an educated opinion on the oracle.
Oh and by the way I'm a Grandmaster protoss player if you think I don't know what im talking about. Just think a bit longer on the oracle as a unit, not just as a thing that kills workers really fast.
Or it could be that you're seeing a buff and jumping on it, without thinking "is that the change Oracles actually need?" Oracles are too good at their cheesy role in lower leagues, and too bad at anything as the game goes on. They need better scaling throughout the game, rather than a pointless speed change. Voting no on a speed change in no way suggests that respondents feel that no change is needed.
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I feel the Oracle is way too gimmicky right now. In PvT you want to suprise the terran and get a lot of kills. All this can be negated by reacting quick enough.
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wow no terran changes... i just don't understand >_<
i can't believe that they really think terran is balanced right now :o
and the spore change just screams "we have no idea what we're doing"
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On April 23 2013 20:58 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 20:26 Skiblet wrote:
I'm really disappointed in TL today. Pertaining to the fact that most people are thumbs downing the oracle speed buff. You obviously do not play protoss and try to use oracles enough. An oracle is shut down by a cannon/spore/turret. An oracle costs 150/150. An oracle requires stargate tech (very important for PvT wherein stargate tech is essentially useless after terrans know you are going oracles, unless you commit to phoenix which is not that great vs bio. An oracle is shutdown by any form of army, or anti air unit. It is completely useless in an army, hard to actually harass with if scouted or once used. It is a very VERY heavy investment early game. To be honest I think some people are just fucking whining or upset because of them losing to oracle proxies early game in PvT or PvP or some other shit, they clearly do not have an educated opinion on the oracle.
Oh and by the way I'm a Grandmaster protoss player if you think I don't know what im talking about. Just think a bit longer on the oracle as a unit, not just as a thing that kills workers really fast. Or it could be that you're seeing a buff and jumping on it, without thinking "is that the change Oracles actually need?" Oracles are too good at their cheesy role in lower leagues, and too bad at anything as the game goes on. They need better scaling throughout the game, rather than a pointless speed change. Voting no on a speed change in no way suggests that respondents feel that no change is needed.
^ Well said, just because the Oracle needs a buff that makes it less gimmicky doesn't necessarily mean any buff is going to do just that. However, I do feel that the Oracle does need this speed buff because a phoenix pretty much shuts down any kind of oracle harass or find any means of escaping.
I also think its a good way to run away from WM if you accidentally miss click or something.
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So no changes to widow mines, eh? From a biased zerg perspective, widow mines are the most cost efficient and annoying units to play against that were ever in the game. They kill overseers, they make muta harrassment too risky, they don't become unburrowed or visible after firing, they're immune to their own splash damage, and they're much easier to use than what zerg has to do to mitigate damage, let alone kill them. It's really rare for a widow mine to not kill its own cost in enemy units, plus it incites frustration and paranoia. Compare how much utility a widow mine yields compared to a roach of the same cost. It's just too much. If they didn't attack air or revealed themselves when shooting, I wouldn't have a problem with them, but they just have no weaknesses at all against zerg.
/end rant
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The oracle is just poorly designed atm. It never does "reasonable damage", either it gets shut down right away or it kills 20 workers and that's an insta win. So I don't agree with a speed buff, would rather have it tweaked in a broader sense. Lower the damage, add some hp, make it more like a banshee with the maphack and detection abilities. Something like that.
Fixing zvz is hard, because they can't just nerf muta's or buff infestors, both of those things will break other matchups again. Buffing spores sounds like a change in the right direction, but I'm not sure if it will matter enough.
Burrow is already cheap and strong but nobody uses it, so a buff might be nice to popularize it.
I head they were thinking about nerfing the widow mine radius in some other DK interview. That would make the widow mine useless, since it's only useful atm DUE to it's radius vs zerglings/banelings. I do however think hellbats are too strong and I'm surprised they haven't said anything about them lately.
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EPT
