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On April 23 2013 20:26 Skiblet wrote:
I'm really disappointed in TL today. Pertaining to the fact that most people are thumbs downing the oracle speed buff. You obviously do not play protoss and try to use oracles enough. An oracle is shut down by a cannon/spore/turret. An oracle costs 150/150. An oracle requires stargate tech (very important for PvT wherein stargate tech is essentially useless after terrans know you are going oracles, unless you commit to phoenix which is not that great vs bio. An oracle is shutdown by any form of army, or anti air unit. It is completely useless in an army, hard to actually harass with if scouted or once used. It is a very VERY heavy investment early game. To be honest I think some people are just fucking whining or upset because of them losing to oracle proxies early game in PvT or PvP or some other shit, they clearly do not have an educated opinion on the oracle.
Oh and by the way I'm a Grandmaster protoss player if you think I don't know what im talking about. Just think a bit longer on the oracle as a unit, not just as a thing that kills workers really fast.
I think the oracle needs more potential to micro it but there needs to be some kind of tradeoff because otherwise it will just be way too effective early on. Proxy oracle already changed TvP quite a bit already in terms of allocating your early minerals. I think the oracle should have some kind of moving shot so that it can be used effectively throughout the game while not being too powerful in the early game and then maybe the speed can be buffed as well.
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On April 23 2013 21:21 Scorch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
So no changes to widow mines, eh? From a biased zerg perspective, widow mines are the most cost efficient and annoying units to play against that were ever in the game. They kill overseers, they make muta harrassment too risky, they don't become unburrowed or visible after firing, they're immune to their own splash damage, and they're much easier to use than what zerg has to do to mitigate damage, let alone kill them. It's really rare for a widow mine to not kill its own cost in enemy units, plus it incites frustration and paranoia. Compare how much utility a widow mine yields compared to a roach of the same cost. It's just too much. If they didn't attack air or revealed themselves when shooting, I wouldn't have a problem with them, but they just have no weaknesses at all against zerg.
/end rant
You keep ranting about the mines and vacs but fail to see that some things should change after HotS release. One of them is the top of the EU/NA scene, consisting of like 10 tosses and 20 zergs.
This means 10 of the zergs need to go and 10 T's should appear instead.
The zergs have two options:
a) whine (most popular)
b) prove themselves (and this is what guys like  Snute, Nerchio, Hyun, TLO do, competing and winning in the EU/NA cups).
Now take a guess: which zergs will actually go down?
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I feel like what Toss really needs is an upgrade for stalkers and/or a bonus to their anti-air (to deal with Voids, Mutas, and speed-medevacs.
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no words about protoss air?
or a buff to Thors?
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On April 23 2013 21:37 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 21:21 Scorch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
So no changes to widow mines, eh? From a biased zerg perspective, widow mines are the most cost efficient and annoying units to play against that were ever in the game. They kill overseers, they make muta harrassment too risky, they don't become unburrowed or visible after firing, they're immune to their own splash damage, and they're much easier to use than what zerg has to do to mitigate damage, let alone kill them. It's really rare for a widow mine to not kill its own cost in enemy units, plus it incites frustration and paranoia. Compare how much utility a widow mine yields compared to a roach of the same cost. It's just too much. If they didn't attack air or revealed themselves when shooting, I wouldn't have a problem with them, but they just have no weaknesses at all against zerg.
/end rant You keep ranting about the mines and vacs but fail to see that some things should change after HotS release. One of them is the top of the EU/NA scene, consisting of like 10 tosses and 20 zergs. This means 10 of the zergs need to go and 10 T's should appear instead. The zergs have two options: a) whine (most popular) b) prove themselves (and this is what guys like Snute, Nerchio, Hyun, TLO do, competing and winning in the EU/NA cups). Now take a guess: which zergs will actually go down?
While toss might need some buff against Z they're in general fine against T, we need some tweaks/nerfs on terran, hellbats are way to cheap/effective mineral only unit, i don't have that much issue with WM's tho.
Answered no to Oracle as i feel different buff might be needed - give it some extra shields or something i doubt speed will be good answer as people who made their mineral lines oracle safe will still be safe with increased speed.
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On April 23 2013 21:42 Salient wrote:
I feel like what Toss really needs is an upgrade for stalkers and/or a bonus to their anti-air (to deal with Voids, Mutas, and speed-medevacs.
yeah no one agrees. they're fine with blink. you have templar, phoenix, phoenix with upgrade, nexus cannon, cannons, counter-voids, archons, and everything else
tbh, the only thing you don't have are zealots. just get better mechanics, man. i'm sure you'll pull through
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Oracle speed? >_>
They want to make protoss even more gimicky?
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On April 23 2013 21:48 Simsons2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 21:37 scypio wrote:On April 23 2013 21:21 Scorch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
So no changes to widow mines, eh? From a biased zerg perspective, widow mines are the most cost efficient and annoying units to play against that were ever in the game. They kill overseers, they make muta harrassment too risky, they don't become unburrowed or visible after firing, they're immune to their own splash damage, and they're much easier to use than what zerg has to do to mitigate damage, let alone kill them. It's really rare for a widow mine to not kill its own cost in enemy units, plus it incites frustration and paranoia. Compare how much utility a widow mine yields compared to a roach of the same cost. It's just too much. If they didn't attack air or revealed themselves when shooting, I wouldn't have a problem with them, but they just have no weaknesses at all against zerg.
/end rant You keep ranting about the mines and vacs but fail to see that some things should change after HotS release. One of them is the top of the EU/NA scene, consisting of like 10 tosses and 20 zergs. This means 10 of the zergs need to go and 10 T's should appear instead. The zergs have two options: a) whine (most popular) b) prove themselves (and this is what guys like Snute, Nerchio, Hyun, TLO do, competing and winning in the EU/NA cups). Now take a guess: which zergs will actually go down? While toss might need some buff against Z they're in general fine against T, we need some tweaks/nerfs on terran, hellbats are way to cheap/effective mineral only unit, i don't have that much issue with WM's tho. Answered no to Oracle as i feel different buff might be needed - give it some extra shields or something i doubt speed will be good answer as people who made their mineral lines oracle safe will still be safe with increased speed.
I have mixed feeling about toss... I did not watch them that closely, thou they seem to be doing a lot better than in the days of Parting as the last man standing (vs a ton of zergs).
On the other hand they don't seem to be doing all that hot in the NA/EU and ZOTAC and GO4SC2s results show it... this worries me a bit and makes any buff to toss way more reasonable than to #1 whinies 
Notice that we only have one major tournament in the backlog, so ultimately I would go with "it's too early to tell" option.
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On April 23 2013 21:55 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 21:42 Salient wrote:
I feel like what Toss really needs is an upgrade for stalkers and/or a bonus to their anti-air (to deal with Voids, Mutas, and speed-medevacs. yeah no one agrees. they're fine with blink. you have templar, phoenix, phoenix with upgrade, nexus cannon, cannons, counter-voids, archons, and everything else tbh, the only thing you don't have are zealots. just get better mechanics, man. i'm sure you'll pull through
No one agrees? You speak for everyone? And you make ad hominim attacks (without any information about who you are attacking) instead of responding to the argument? Reported.
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On April 23 2013 22:00 scypio wrote:... this worries me a bit and makes any buff to toss way more reasonable than to #1 whinies .
I actually play Zerg and i feel that alot of different setups are working rather too well against toss, however it seems to be other way around against T , and few cannons don't help toss against Hellbat drops that much either
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PLEASE NERF HELLBATS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
they ruin tvt its retarded
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Buffing spores isn't a bright idea. If they want to affect nothing but the ZvZ meta, why not give the +bio damage to hydras, fungal (vs bio-air only) or infested terrans ? Sc2 is full of special rules anyway, at this point they can keep expanding.
Oracles, meh. Better decrease the damage and the cost, instead of having that glass cannon.
Burrow change leaves me kinda indifferent.
Hellbats need a damage nerf. Usually, in RTS games, speed movement and range are negatively corrrelated. In the hellbats case, both are low and they compensate it with a huge dps. I'd rather have a faster and less powerful hellbat at this point, one that allows you to maneuver around your siege tanks line, rather than having this sluggish but insanely powerful unit.
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On April 23 2013 22:05 teddyoojo wrote:
PLEASE NERF HELLBATS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
they ruin tvt its retarded
>_>? You know theres a reason any terran past diamond doesnt really use it?
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On April 23 2013 22:05 teddyoojo wrote:
PLEASE NERF HELLBATS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
they ruin tvt its retarded
Hellbats are fine, stick a bunker + turret near the mineral line if you scout them early, or build a tank.
Learn to play and learn to scout. You cant bitch in a mirror match-up its a skill thing
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Nice on the Burrow. Can't wait to do all those horrible things I do with burrow already, just cheaper now.
Oracle speed is hmmm. Usually pros fail with the Oracle control in the midgame. And the Oracle wastes their energy on an extractor, because the Protoss is busy distracting the opponents army. So Speed increase wouldn't really help there. Changing the spell would probably help more, as in "ignores buildings unless told to attack".
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On April 23 2013 21:37 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 21:21 Scorch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
So no changes to widow mines, eh? From a biased zerg perspective, widow mines are the most cost efficient and annoying units to play against that were ever in the game. They kill overseers, they make muta harrassment too risky, they don't become unburrowed or visible after firing, they're immune to their own splash damage, and they're much easier to use than what zerg has to do to mitigate damage, let alone kill them. It's really rare for a widow mine to not kill its own cost in enemy units, plus it incites frustration and paranoia. Compare how much utility a widow mine yields compared to a roach of the same cost. It's just too much. If they didn't attack air or revealed themselves when shooting, I wouldn't have a problem with them, but they just have no weaknesses at all against zerg.
/end rant You keep ranting about the mines and vacs but fail to see that some things should change after HotS release. One of them is the top of the EU/NA scene, consisting of like 10 tosses and 20 zergs. This means 10 of the zergs need to go and 10 T's should appear instead. The zergs have two options: a) whine (most popular) b) prove themselves (and this is what guys like Snute, Nerchio, Hyun, TLO do, competing and winning in the EU/NA cups). Now take a guess: which zergs will actually go down?
Are you fucking kidding me?
http://nios.kr/
Checked the top recently? ^
Have you seen who qualified for WCS in europe? Only terrans and protoss..
Get a grip.
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On April 23 2013 22:08 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 22:05 teddyoojo wrote:
PLEASE NERF HELLBATS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
they ruin tvt its retarded
>_>? You know theres a reason any terran past diamond doesnt really use it?
Oh that's why top tier korean GM players are using it massively at the moment.
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On April 23 2013 22:13 Uni1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 21:37 scypio wrote:On April 23 2013 21:21 Scorch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
So no changes to widow mines, eh? From a biased zerg perspective, widow mines are the most cost efficient and annoying units to play against that were ever in the game. They kill overseers, they make muta harrassment too risky, they don't become unburrowed or visible after firing, they're immune to their own splash damage, and they're much easier to use than what zerg has to do to mitigate damage, let alone kill them. It's really rare for a widow mine to not kill its own cost in enemy units, plus it incites frustration and paranoia. Compare how much utility a widow mine yields compared to a roach of the same cost. It's just too much. If they didn't attack air or revealed themselves when shooting, I wouldn't have a problem with them, but they just have no weaknesses at all against zerg.
/end rant You keep ranting about the mines and vacs but fail to see that some things should change after HotS release. One of them is the top of the EU/NA scene, consisting of like 10 tosses and 20 zergs. This means 10 of the zergs need to go and 10 T's should appear instead. The zergs have two options: a) whine (most popular) b) prove themselves (and this is what guys like Snute, Nerchio, Hyun, TLO do, competing and winning in the EU/NA cups). Now take a guess: which zergs will actually go down? Are you fucking kidding me? http://nios.kr/Checked the top recently? ^ Have you seen who qualified for WCS in europe? Only terrans and protoss.. Get a grip.
While terran might need nerf most good Eu Zergs were already invited.
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Good changes tbh, but still need changes in widow mines in TvZ (they're fine TvP), drop boosters and void rays (in PvP)
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Blizzard doing bullshit changes once again.
What the hell does the oracles have to do with the balance problems atm?
The problem in PvP isn't that proxy oracles aren't deadly enough but vrays counter everything too damn well.
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EPT
