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United Kingdom12027 Posts
On April 23 2013 22:58 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 22:53 Gladiator333 wrote:
I hope this fix will help protoss in Code S. No it wont. Oracle speed is a one trick pony. They get the odd build order win here and there, but fundamentally the unit is too gas heavy and has poor utility ( its other spells dont other nothing new).
Revelation is one of the most useful spells for SC2 protoss in the game. Having basically constant vision on the majority of a large army the whole time is a massive deal and a speedboost should make people more willing to use it.
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Oracle too fast I need 120Hz monitor.
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On April 23 2013 22:32 lorestarcraft wrote:
Haha, all the whiners... if you are dying to oracles then the problem is YOU. And YOU should feel bad about YOUR skill and go make YOUR play better. I like all these changes. Oracles are a huge investment and movement speed is not that big of a buff anyway, after all, they buffed the speed and health regen of mutas, which are a massable unit.
So they should buff it so it is even better against bad players but a buff that would barely change it at the pro level to a point where it would probably get no more use. Makes sense. They should just make it tankier so it doesn't die in 2 hits and so maybe it can kill a few drones before 1 spore hit but lower it's damage so that it can't kill everything if a player was bad enough to miss it. Doesn't that fix the problems more, both at pro level and at low level?
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On April 23 2013 22:33 Bagi wrote:
A 50/50 burrow at hatch tech could bring a ton of variety to zerg early game plays. At that price, there's no reason NOT to get it early on.
Well, I think you still want players to make a cost analysis, otherwise you might as well just give it to them for free.
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On April 23 2013 23:09 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 22:58 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On April 23 2013 22:42 Sissors wrote:On April 23 2013 22:06 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
Hellbats need a damage nerf. Usually, in RTS games, speed movement and range are negatively corrrelated. In the hellbats case, both are low and they compensate it with a huge dps. I'd rather have a faster and less powerful hellbat at this point, one that allows you to maneuver around your siege tanks line, rather than having this sluggish but insanely powerful unit. We could maybe call that unit a hellion? (Which are imo atm underrated) Yeah the hellion is a great meatshield, as we've seen in wol You cannot have both mobility and tankyness at the same time.
Ultras, and in a lesser extent archons, are quite mobile and tanky :p (but of course higher supply/cost)
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The oracle would surpass the DT as the most annoying unit in the game with these changes. It's so retardedly gimmicky because of how fast it kills workers. It's absurd really.
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On April 23 2013 22:32 lorestarcraft wrote:
Haha, all the whiners... if you are dying to oracles then the problem is YOU. And YOU should feel bad about YOUR skill and go make YOUR play better. I like all these changes. Oracles are a huge investment and movement speed is not that big of a buff anyway, after all, they buffed the speed and health regen of mutas, which are a massable unit.
Thank you for your insight, but the majority of players do not play this game "as a way of life" for 3-4 hours every day, so they do not have the time or inclination to get better than they are and simply want to play for fun. Casuals dont mind losing, but they do mind losing to a stupid unit they cant do anything against.
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As a Terran Oracles are easy to deal with even at my low level. Even if you haven't scouted the stargate and don't have sufficient anti-air, you can just run your probes around until you do, or until the Oracle has no more energy. Its energy requirement, low range, and the fact that it can't shoot while moving more than compensates for its speed and extremely high DPS.
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Terran is perfect right now, so I'm glad they are trying to buff Z/P rather than nerfing Terran.
Also, even as a Terran myself, the race that gets WRECKED by oracles if you don't scout/counter them quickly, I agree with the oracle change. Speedy oracles would be really cool to see.
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On April 23 2013 09:42 TimENT wrote:
lol damn blizz wut no t nerf? niiiice
Great post, but really - imho buffing P/Z is better than nerfing T at this point. I dont think T is too strong, but I'd rather see more spectacular/fun/extreme units than calming everything down. Mines and speedvacs are too fun to nerf.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On April 23 2013 10:36 BiG wrote:
so hellbats, mines, voidrays and medivacspeed will be unchanged?
and i would love a different mappool, which is a bit more "balanced". on most of the maps besides akilon and daybreak its VERY VERY hard to ever take a 3rd as a protoss, while its ok for T and Z. thats why your options are rather limited as a P.
No, Daybreak needs to hurry its ass up and leave the map-pool.
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Just want to suggest that there should be a thumbs up option for No Terran Nerf.
My vote is to go with the school of thought on keeping things "OP" and add power to other races to balance it out like broodwar. Nerf things too much and we get another WOL.
For oracle boost, I say test it out! Im all for making units more powerful due to skill and not cheese. Reward the high level players. I am all for it. Even if they will destroy me again and again. I welcome it. Because I will learn and destroy my opponents again and again as well.
For me balance should not be nerfing, it should be boosting. I don't want to play with under powered toys. I play vintage magic and its fun to play OP cards. Its doesn't feel OP anymore since everyone has OP cards, and its not coin flippy. Its still very skill oriented.
I hope BALANCE does not equate to NERF. I hope balance equates to FUN AND EXCITING that will keep players playing.
I lose tons and tons to zerg and I don't complain. I lose tons and tons against terran and protoss as well. I don't complain. Its fun to lose knowing I can learn to destroy the enemy as well.
Hands down SC2 is more fun the WOL. I WANT YOU TO HEAR THIS BLIZZARD. HOTS IS MORE FUN THAN WOL. PLEASE KEEP IT THAT WAY.
Thanks Blizzard for taking things slow and not making big changes right away just because alot of know it alls demand a nerf. Thats their opinion. Well hear out my opinion as well. NO NERF AND MORE POWER TO OTHER UNITS. I am no expert and not a game designer so I will let you do your jobs as game designers. Making art is not a democracy, let the artists do their thing. Our feedback helps but its your call and I trust you guys.
Please don't listen to every whiner out there. Just trust your gut. Again, Hots is fun. Please keep it that way.
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On April 23 2013 23:17 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 23:09 Baum wrote:On April 23 2013 22:58 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On April 23 2013 22:42 Sissors wrote:On April 23 2013 22:06 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
Hellbats need a damage nerf. Usually, in RTS games, speed movement and range are negatively corrrelated. In the hellbats case, both are low and they compensate it with a huge dps. I'd rather have a faster and less powerful hellbat at this point, one that allows you to maneuver around your siege tanks line, rather than having this sluggish but insanely powerful unit. We could maybe call that unit a hellion? (Which are imo atm underrated) Yeah the hellion is a great meatshield, as we've seen in wol You cannot have both mobility and tankyness at the same time. On April 23 2013 22:52 Decrith wrote:On April 23 2013 22:39 Baum wrote:On April 23 2013 22:32 lorestarcraft wrote:
Haha, all the whiners... if you are dying to oracles then the problem is YOU. And YOU should feel bad about YOUR skill and go make YOUR play better. I like all these changes. Oracles are a huge investment and movement speed is not that big of a buff anyway, after all, they buffed the speed and health regen of mutas, which are a massable unit. It's a huge buff in the early game. It means proxy oracle arrive even earlier and it means you can now kill marines and get out to regen shields and go again with the second oracle which will result in more free wins. It will probably do absolutely nothing to make the oracle a viable mid game harassing unit. So it's a stupid change because it would do what protoss players complain about all the time making a gimmicky unit better at being gimmicky but not giving it more usability in longer games. Having an oracle 5 seconds earlier than usual isn't gonna make that big of a difference. It does. It's the difference between having 6 marines to protect your turrets going up and things spiraling out of control because of not being able to. I'm pretty confident that this change will not make it through testing. Learn to scout for proxy stargates, its no different than Zerg scouting for proxy Barracks. Terran shouldn't be immune from cheese just because they want to fast 3 CC every game
I'm not sure why you are telling me this. I'm not complaining about proxy oracles but I'm pointing out that it is a bad idea to buff an already strong cheese instead of giving the unit a more longterm usage. Proxy oracles just makes a lot of builds a coinflip against Protoss already so it has a huge influence on the meta game why does it need to be better?
On April 23 2013 23:41 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 23:09 Baum wrote:On April 23 2013 22:58 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On April 23 2013 22:42 Sissors wrote:On April 23 2013 22:06 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
Hellbats need a damage nerf. Usually, in RTS games, speed movement and range are negatively corrrelated. In the hellbats case, both are low and they compensate it with a huge dps. I'd rather have a faster and less powerful hellbat at this point, one that allows you to maneuver around your siege tanks line, rather than having this sluggish but insanely powerful unit. We could maybe call that unit a hellion? (Which are imo atm underrated) Yeah the hellion is a great meatshield, as we've seen in wol You cannot have both mobility and tankyness at the same time. Ultras, and in a lesser extent archons, are quite mobile and tanky :p (but of course higher supply/cost)
But those are gas heavy tech units with additional drawbacks like size and vulnerability to EMPs. Both units can hardly be described as way more mobile than the hellbat.
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On April 23 2013 23:18 Psychobabas wrote:
The oracle is just flawed to start with.
It should have never made it into the released game in my opinion.
Either protoss deals ridiculous damage and gets a massive advantage early on or it gets countered and the protoss can only sit there while the opponent pretty much macros up no problem or amoves across the map 3-5 minutes later.
Complete 1-trick pony.
when the oracle destroy the mineral line, it's because people forget to run away with the workers...
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On April 23 2013 22:18 Simsons2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 22:13 Uni1987 wrote:On April 23 2013 21:37 scypio wrote:On April 23 2013 21:21 Scorch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
So no changes to widow mines, eh? From a biased zerg perspective, widow mines are the most cost efficient and annoying units to play against that were ever in the game. They kill overseers, they make muta harrassment too risky, they don't become unburrowed or visible after firing, they're immune to their own splash damage, and they're much easier to use than what zerg has to do to mitigate damage, let alone kill them. It's really rare for a widow mine to not kill its own cost in enemy units, plus it incites frustration and paranoia. Compare how much utility a widow mine yields compared to a roach of the same cost. It's just too much. If they didn't attack air or revealed themselves when shooting, I wouldn't have a problem with them, but they just have no weaknesses at all against zerg.
/end rant You keep ranting about the mines and vacs but fail to see that some things should change after HotS release. One of them is the top of the EU/NA scene, consisting of like 10 tosses and 20 zergs. This means 10 of the zergs need to go and 10 T's should appear instead. The zergs have two options: a) whine (most popular) b) prove themselves (and this is what guys like  Snute, Nerchio, Hyun, TLO do, competing and winning in the EU/NA cups). Now take a guess: which zergs will actually go down? Are you fucking kidding me? http://nios.kr/Checked the top recently? ^ Have you seen who qualified for WCS in europe? Only terrans and protoss.. Get a grip. While terran might need nerf most good Eu Zergs were already invited.
Terran most definitely does not need a nerf, we don't want to go down the path of WoL.
On April 23 2013 23:59 ishmoks wrote:Just want to suggest that there should be a thumbs up option for No Terran Nerf. My vote is to go with the school of thought on keeping things "OP" and add power to other races to balance it out like broodwar. Nerf things too much and we get another WOL. For oracle boost, I say test it out! Im all for making units more powerful due to skill and not cheese. Reward the high level players. I am all for it. Even if they will destroy me again and again. I welcome it. Because I will learn and destroy my opponents again and again as well. For me balance should not be nerfing, it should be boosting. I don't want to play with under powered toys. I play vintage magic and its fun to play OP cards. Its doesn't feel OP anymore since everyone has OP cards, and its not coin flippy. Its still very skill oriented. I hope BALANCE does not equate to NERF. I hope balance equates to FUN AND EXCITING that will keep players playing. I lose tons and tons to zerg and I don't complain. I lose tons and tons against terran and protoss as well. I don't complain. Its fun to lose knowing I can learn to destroy the enemy as well. Hands down SC2 is more fun the WOL. I WANT YOU TO HEAR THIS BLIZZARD. HOTS IS MORE FUN THAN WOL. PLEASE KEEP IT THAT WAY. Thanks Blizzard for taking things slow and not making big changes right away just because alot of know it alls demand a nerf. Thats their opinion. Well hear out my opinion as well. NO NERF AND MORE POWER TO OTHER UNITS. I am no expert and not a game designer so I will let you do your jobs as game designers. Making art is not a democracy, let the artists do their thing. Our feedback helps but its your call and I trust you guys. Please don't listen to every whiner out there. Just trust your gut. Again, Hots is fun. Please keep it that way.
Less CAPS, more bold, that way it doesn't look like you're shouting
Agree about your message though, definitely the way to go.
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On April 24 2013 00:15 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 22:18 Simsons2 wrote:On April 23 2013 22:13 Uni1987 wrote:On April 23 2013 21:37 scypio wrote:On April 23 2013 21:21 Scorch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
So no changes to widow mines, eh? From a biased zerg perspective, widow mines are the most cost efficient and annoying units to play against that were ever in the game. They kill overseers, they make muta harrassment too risky, they don't become unburrowed or visible after firing, they're immune to their own splash damage, and they're much easier to use than what zerg has to do to mitigate damage, let alone kill them. It's really rare for a widow mine to not kill its own cost in enemy units, plus it incites frustration and paranoia. Compare how much utility a widow mine yields compared to a roach of the same cost. It's just too much. If they didn't attack air or revealed themselves when shooting, I wouldn't have a problem with them, but they just have no weaknesses at all against zerg.
/end rant You keep ranting about the mines and vacs but fail to see that some things should change after HotS release. One of them is the top of the EU/NA scene, consisting of like 10 tosses and 20 zergs. This means 10 of the zergs need to go and 10 T's should appear instead. The zergs have two options: a) whine (most popular) b) prove themselves (and this is what guys like Snute, Nerchio, Hyun, TLO do, competing and winning in the EU/NA cups). Now take a guess: which zergs will actually go down? Are you fucking kidding me? http://nios.kr/Checked the top recently? ^ Have you seen who qualified for WCS in europe? Only terrans and protoss.. Get a grip. While terran might need nerf most good Eu Zergs were already invited. Terran most definitely does not need a nerf, we don't want to go down the path of WoL. Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 23:59 ishmoks wrote:Just want to suggest that there should be a thumbs up option for No Terran Nerf. My vote is to go with the school of thought on keeping things "OP" and add power to other races to balance it out like broodwar. Nerf things too much and we get another WOL. For oracle boost, I say test it out! Im all for making units more powerful due to skill and not cheese. Reward the high level players. I am all for it. Even if they will destroy me again and again. I welcome it. Because I will learn and destroy my opponents again and again as well. For me balance should not be nerfing, it should be boosting. I don't want to play with under powered toys. I play vintage magic and its fun to play OP cards. Its doesn't feel OP anymore since everyone has OP cards, and its not coin flippy. Its still very skill oriented. I hope BALANCE does not equate to NERF. I hope balance equates to FUN AND EXCITING that will keep players playing. I lose tons and tons to zerg and I don't complain. I lose tons and tons against terran and protoss as well. I don't complain. Its fun to lose knowing I can learn to destroy the enemy as well. Hands down SC2 is more fun the WOL. I WANT YOU TO HEAR THIS BLIZZARD. HOTS IS MORE FUN THAN WOL. PLEASE KEEP IT THAT WAY. Thanks Blizzard for taking things slow and not making big changes right away just because alot of know it alls demand a nerf. Thats their opinion. Well hear out my opinion as well. NO NERF AND MORE POWER TO OTHER UNITS. I am no expert and not a game designer so I will let you do your jobs as game designers. Making art is not a democracy, let the artists do their thing. Our feedback helps but its your call and I trust you guys. Please don't listen to every whiner out there. Just trust your gut. Again, Hots is fun. Please keep it that way. Less CAPS, more bold, that way it doesn't look like you're shouting Agree about your message though, definitely the way to go.
Actually, I was shouting so Blizzard can hear me if I was reading it out loud :-) And so that the whiners can hear me as well. :-) I've been a lurker too long and sick of reading whiner posts. Its about time I let my voice be heard.
I appreciate the constructive comment regarding the caps vs. bold though.
Glad you agree with the message :-)
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Regarding rewarding high level players, check out Artosis blog post "The Raised Skill Ceiling: HotS vs BW" at http://scdojo.tumblr.com/
What he wrote makes sense.
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When they want to fix zvz why they dont just put +bio dmg on the hydralisk . Even as they could need the extra damage for zvp...
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lol i would be in favor of that oracle change. then my 3 gate stargate rush would be even stronger.
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EPT
