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Bareleon
371 Posts
They need for buffs: Speed/Acceleration, a slight price decrease, HP/Shields Right now. if you dont do damage with them, you are behind. It is way too risky to use them which is why I dont use them very often. And if you do FFE into Stargate, you wont have a Robo, and yeah, vs terran, its useless unless doing an all-in. | ||
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AdelSC123
France362 Posts
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Empedocles
United States47 Posts
I agree with all your points but i really think the corruptor buff is a good idea. I think their ability, although decent, is practically almost never used, especially with the addition of the extra spell caster we got, there is just no time in the heat of a battle to cast corruption. I think they should either make it an autocast ability or take it away completely and buff the corruptor some other way. Maybe + range or + armour or + health or a cool new ability, something. They are laughable against VR's and even dont really stand up to mutas either theres almost to reason to build them at this point. I would really like to see a change here, but being as David Kim didnt even mention the corruptor in his latest balance chat, im not holding my breath... | ||
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BaaL`
297 Posts
Not so sure about the others, is burrow really that interesting? And oracle seems ok where it is, its just a niche unit like banshee/DT. Buffed speed could make it too good, it already sees quite a bit of use? | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 24 2013 02:12 Darksoldierr wrote: I dont want to be rude, but a good Brood War player would have destroyed a causal Brood War player even more than in Sc2. In Sc2 thanks to the lot of all ins, the weaker player (unless the skill difference is that high) has a chance to win. Sc2 is lot more forgiving than BW was. Saying Sc2 is "harder" because you don't fight the AI or UI but units is like saying Football is hard, because the ball is rounded and can go anywhere. Ummm ... the difference between a "good" and a "casual" player is not the question. It is the difference between a casual and a slightly better casual and the ability to have "stupid wins" (the ones ending with ragequit) in SC2 due to the all-or-nothing kind of units AND the ability mass up a critical number with about any kind of unit while your opponent - who is rather sloppy with his mechanics just as you are - does not do so. In BW you didnt have the ability to get a critical number with any kind of unit because you had to "fight the game" with the movement and the unit selection limitations. THAT WAS GOOD ... for casuals but pros dont care for either way!!!! SC2 is obviously harder because you have LOTS MORE to do at the same time ... multitasking is a killer and so are gimmicky units which bypass strategic play. In BW you didnt have blink, burrowed movement, Nydus worms that can surface anywhere, warp-ins, ... all things which add requirements to SC2 which casuals do not have. Thus the game is harder for casuals than BW is. BW was simpler and less gimmicky and thus easier to play, even though it took more effort to play. Just dont think about "using units" but rather think about "playing against units" and then limit yourself to half your thoughts about them and you might see the problem of SC2. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Usernameffs
Sweden107 Posts
On April 24 2013 01:42 Rabiator wrote: Free boring game with nothing to decide? How about making Warp Gate or Blink free as well, because Protoss needs to get some free stuff too, eh? Diffrence is burrow effect all units charge and blink is like roach speed. Maybe make burrow cost only minerals but 50/50 is okey uppgrades should cost gas. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 24 2013 03:20 Shikyo wrote: SC2 harder for casuals than BW? I mean... that's just completely off. The players who were attacking with 5 Zealots and 3 Dragoons at 10min in BW with their 40 APM are now platinum in SC2. SC2 is far more casual-centric. Thats just stupid, because you have to do FAR MORE multitasking .... just argue with the things I mentioned which make any kind of casual strategy harder. Did you ever get killed in a few minutes because your opponent made one or two Reapers and jumped into your walled off base and you werent ready for it? That is a stupid and not really satisfying way for a game to be played. BW simply did not have these gimmicks and was much simpler and thus easier to play for a casual ... If you dont want to accept that it is just Blizzard propaganda about the awesome unlimited unit selection ... which is stupid and the cause for many balance issues. | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On April 24 2013 02:29 wUndertUnge wrote: granting vision of an army without a robo doesn't help in the counterattack? I know it's not in direct damage, but still... I understand, though, and I wonder if a +1 range increase might help with the raid on the mineral line and also in defending... Not sure, though. Actually, not totally sure why Oracle buffing is even being discussed. the vision helps if they are going to be dropping, but often they can just do a big frontal assault and since gas has been spent on stuff other than sentries/robo units there won't be enough protoss stuff to come close to stopping it. In theory the oracle has decent dps so you would think it should help against a marine ball but in practice it just melts before getting anything done, especially since terrans will have stim/combat shields by then. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On April 24 2013 03:17 Rabiator wrote: Ummm ... the difference between a "good" and a "casual" player is not the question. It is the difference between a casual and a slightly better casual and the ability to have "stupid wins" (the ones ending with ragequit) in SC2 due to the all-or-nothing kind of units AND the ability mass up a critical number with about any kind of unit while your opponent - who is rather sloppy with his mechanics just as you are - does not do so. In BW you didnt have the ability to get a critical number with any kind of unit because you had to "fight the game" with the movement and the unit selection limitations. THAT WAS GOOD ... for casuals but pros dont care for either way!!!! SC2 is obviously harder because you have LOTS MORE to do at the same time ... multitasking is a killer and so are gimmicky units which bypass strategic play. In BW you didnt have blink, burrowed movement, Nydus worms that can surface anywhere, warp-ins, ... all things which add requirements to SC2 which casuals do not have. Thus the game is harder for casuals than BW is. BW was simpler and less gimmicky and thus easier to play, even though it took more effort to play. Just dont think about "using units" but rather think about "playing against units" and then limit yourself to half your thoughts about them and you might see the problem of SC2. rofl | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
If you add anti-bio splash to Spores, then Mutalisk will die in ZvZ completely, and it will turn back into Hydralisk-Roach battles again. Well, lets discuss some ideas around buffing Mutalisks counters for ZvZ. _________________________________________________ More defensive anti-bio-air options with slow effect 1. Queen damage against biological air units is increased to 27 (three times more than current anti-air damage). I want to remember - only against biological air units. Queens can heal other Queens, also they can be upgraded with armor upgrades, and they have biggest anti-air range of all AA Zerg units. Their range is 7, when Hydralisk range after upgrade is only 6. Try to use that factor, and maybe buff it into soft-counter for Mutalisks. 2. Add slow effect to Spore Crawlers against air-biological units. And stay with current +15 damage to bio-air units. Spore Crawlers will be able to slow down a bit flying muta, especially when in big numbers, some Mutalisks will be slowed down, and you will be able to snipe them with buffed Queens against bio-air. Result. Spore Crawlers do more damage to biological air units and they slow a bit all affected units for a short time, like 2-3 seconds. Queens with Spores can do more damage, especially against some slowed Mutalisks. _________________________________________________ Corruptor as real anti-Mutalisk counter. Buff it against Mutalisks! • Make Corruption ability slow down by 50% all aircraft units. It will also balance Corruptors against Phoenixes. Right now Corruptors can't counter Phoenixes as they supposed to do. • Or make Corruption ability slow down by 50% only biological air units. • Another good idea - extend "+6 damage against massive targets" to "+6 damage against biological and massive targets", in other word, make Corruptors do bonus damage to biological aircraft too. _________________________________________________ Mobile Spore Crawlers 1. Allow Spore Crawlers to attack when uprooted. 2. Increase rooting time from 6 seconds back to 12 seconds. 3. When uprooted, Spore Crawlers still lose their ability to detect. 4. Remove +15 bonus damage against biological targets. 5. Probably increase cost of Spore Crawlers to 100 minerals (+50 from Drone) 6. Slighty decrease Spore Crawler speed on creep. Probably make it 1.88 or 2.25 7. Probably disallow to attack off-creep. 8. Any other nerf to mobile Spore Crawlers Result • Spore Crawlers still can not be strong anti-air unit off-creep, because they are very slow, like Queens. • Spore Crawlers can not detect while uprooted. • Spore Crawlers become a new Zerg weapon against aircraft, especially against Sky-Protoss, which is strong right now, especially with Storms and other splash weapons that eradicate Hydralisks quickly, and Void Rays who destroy Corruptors even more quickly too. Spore Crawlers are armored too, but they are immune to Storms, but they do ZERO damage to ground units, so it's like ground-to-air tanking units, which can be destroyed by everything, like Stalkers, Zealots, Archons (with bonus damage against bio), or even Void Rays with their new charge. • When they become mobile and strong anti-air, they can not attack off-creep, so it means, that Zergs must spread creep to use Spore Crawlers in combat. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
On April 24 2013 03:14 Empedocles wrote: hey wUnder!!!! </waves> I agree with all your points but i really think the corruptor buff is a good idea. I think their ability, although decent, is practically almost never used, especially with the addition of the extra spell caster we got, there is just no time in the heat of a battle to cast corruption. I think they should either make it an autocast ability or take it away completely and buff the corruptor some other way. Maybe + range or + armour or + health or a cool new ability, something. They are laughable against VR's and even dont really stand up to mutas either theres almost to reason to build them at this point. I would really like to see a change here, but being as David Kim didnt even mention the corruptor in his latest balance chat, im not holding my breath... </waves back> Yeah, the much maligned corrupter could use some tweaking just ot make it a more interesting and useful unit. Could even be the answer. That way spire tech actually come swith some decision making. I don't know, though. anyways, see you at 8pm for practice. Be there! | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On April 24 2013 03:04 Bareleon wrote: Oracles need more buffs. They need for buffs: Speed/Acceleration, a slight price decrease, HP/Shields Right now. if you dont do damage with them, you are behind. It is way too risky to use them which is why I dont use them very often. That's a great point! I would really enjoy investing into harassing units with reasonable late-gate abilities, do no damage with them and come out ahead or at least even. | ||
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RandomAccount#282689
42 Posts
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
On April 24 2013 03:48 Existor wrote: Is it not better to discuss what the solution can be to Mutalisks in ZvZ matchup? Rather than trying useless buff to Spores. Why developers do not understand, that 15-20 mutalisks can one-shot Spore crawlers no matter how many they have damage? If you add anti-bio splash to Spores, then Mutalisk will die in ZvZ completely, and it will turn back into Hydralisk-Roach battles again. Well, lets discuss some ideas around buffing Mutalisks counters for ZvZ. _________________________________________________ More defensive semi-mobile anti-bio-air options 1. Queen damage against biological air units is increased to 27 (three times more than current anti-air damage). I want to remember - only against biological air units. Queens can heal other Queens, also they can be upgraded with armor upgrades, and they have biggest anti-air range of all AA Zerg units. Their range is 7, when Hydralisk range after upgrade is only 6. Try to use that factor, and maybe buff it into soft-counter for Mutalisks. 2. Add slow effect to Spore Crawlers against air-biological units. And stay with current +15 damage to bio-air units. Spore Crawlers will be able to slow down a bit flying muta, especially when in big numbers, some Mutalisks will be slowed down, and you will be able to snipe them with buffed Queens against bio-air. Result. Spore Crawlers do more damage to biological air units and they slow a bit all affected units for a short time, like 2-3 seconds. Queens with Spores can do more damage, especially against some slowed Mutalisks. _________________________________________________ Corruptor as real anti-Mutalisk counter. Buff it against Mutalisks! • Make Corruption ability slow down by 50% all aircraft units. It will also balance Corruptors against Phoenixes. Right now Corruptors can't counter Phoenixes as they supposed to do. • Or make Corruption ability slow down by 50% only biological air units. • Another good idea - extend "+6 damage against massive targets" to "+6 damage against biological and massive targets", in other word, make Corruptors do bonus damage to biological aircraft too. _________________________________________________ Mobile Spore Crawlers 1. Allow Spore Crawlers to attack when uprooted. 2. Increase rooting time from 6 seconds back to 12 seconds. 3. When uprooted, Spore Crawlers still lose their ability to detect. 4. Remove +15 bonus damage against biological targets. 5. Probably increase cost of Spore Crawlers to 100 minerals (+50 from Drone) 6. Slighty decrease Spore Crawler speed on creep. Probably make it 2.25 7. Probably disallow to attack off-creep. Result • Spore Crawlers still can not be strong anti-air unit off-creep, because they are very slow, like Queens. • Spore Crawlers can not detect while uprooted. • Spore Crawlers become a new Zerg weapon against aircraft, especially against Sky-Protoss, which is strong right now, especially with Storms and other splash weapons that eradicate Hydralisks quickly, and Void Rays who destroy Corruptors even more quickly too. Spore Crawlers are armored too, but they are immune to Storms, but they do ZERO damage to ground units, so it's like ground-to-air tanking units, which can be destroyed by everything, like Stalkers, Zealots, Archons (with bonus damage against bio), or even Void Rays with their new charge. • When they become mobile and strong anti-air, they can not attack off-creep, so it means, that Zergs must spread creep to use Spore Crawlers in combat. I like some of these ideas, esp. the queen and corrupter buffs. It should at least be tested internally at Blizz. The spore crawlers attacking while uprooted miffs me a bit. I know you wrote no defending while off of creep, but then there's almost 0 reason to keep them rooted in ZvZ or ZvT at all. This sounds kind of broken. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10134 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On April 24 2013 03:57 wUndertUnge wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 24 2013 03:48 Existor wrote: Is it not better to discuss what the solution can be to Mutalisks in ZvZ matchup? Rather than trying useless buff to Spores. Why developers do not understand, that 15-20 mutalisks can one-shot Spore crawlers no matter how many they have damage? If you add anti-bio splash to Spores, then Mutalisk will die in ZvZ completely, and it will turn back into Hydralisk-Roach battles again. Well, lets discuss some ideas around buffing Mutalisks counters for ZvZ. _________________________________________________ More defensive semi-mobile anti-bio-air options 1. Queen damage against biological air units is increased to 27 (three times more than current anti-air damage). I want to remember - only against biological air units. Queens can heal other Queens, also they can be upgraded with armor upgrades, and they have biggest anti-air range of all AA Zerg units. Their range is 7, when Hydralisk range after upgrade is only 6. Try to use that factor, and maybe buff it into soft-counter for Mutalisks. 2. Add slow effect to Spore Crawlers against air-biological units. And stay with current +15 damage to bio-air units. Spore Crawlers will be able to slow down a bit flying muta, especially when in big numbers, some Mutalisks will be slowed down, and you will be able to snipe them with buffed Queens against bio-air. Result. Spore Crawlers do more damage to biological air units and they slow a bit all affected units for a short time, like 2-3 seconds. Queens with Spores can do more damage, especially against some slowed Mutalisks. _________________________________________________ Corruptor as real anti-Mutalisk counter. Buff it against Mutalisks! • Make Corruption ability slow down by 50% all aircraft units. It will also balance Corruptors against Phoenixes. Right now Corruptors can't counter Phoenixes as they supposed to do. • Or make Corruption ability slow down by 50% only biological air units. • Another good idea - extend "+6 damage against massive targets" to "+6 damage against biological and massive targets", in other word, make Corruptors do bonus damage to biological aircraft too. _________________________________________________ Mobile Spore Crawlers 1. Allow Spore Crawlers to attack when uprooted. 2. Increase rooting time from 6 seconds back to 12 seconds. 3. When uprooted, Spore Crawlers still lose their ability to detect. 4. Remove +15 bonus damage against biological targets. 5. Probably increase cost of Spore Crawlers to 100 minerals (+50 from Drone) 6. Slighty decrease Spore Crawler speed on creep. Probably make it 2.25 7. Probably disallow to attack off-creep. Result • Spore Crawlers still can not be strong anti-air unit off-creep, because they are very slow, like Queens. • Spore Crawlers can not detect while uprooted. • Spore Crawlers become a new Zerg weapon against aircraft, especially against Sky-Protoss, which is strong right now, especially with Storms and other splash weapons that eradicate Hydralisks quickly, and Void Rays who destroy Corruptors even more quickly too. Spore Crawlers are armored too, but they are immune to Storms, but they do ZERO damage to ground units, so it's like ground-to-air tanking units, which can be destroyed by everything, like Stalkers, Zealots, Archons (with bonus damage against bio), or even Void Rays with their new charge. • When they become mobile and strong anti-air, they can not attack off-creep, so it means, that Zergs must spread creep to use Spore Crawlers in combat. I like some of these ideas, esp. the queen and corrupter buffs. It should at least be tested internally at Blizz. The spore crawlers attacking while uprooted miffs me a bit. I know you wrote no defending while off of creep, but then there's almost 0 reason to keep them rooted in ZvZ or ZvT at all. This sounds kind of broken. Why? Banshees still can snipe them, spores are more expensive and slower at all (off creep they are still slow, on creep they are like non-stimmed Marines). Against Protoss? Make stalkers / zealots / archons / void-rays / carriers / immortals / dark-templars (no detect in uprooted state) / other anti-ground unit - everyone counters spores easily, especially when they are more expensive, like spines. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
On April 24 2013 04:06 Existor wrote: Why? Banshees still can snipe them, spores are more expensive and slower at all (off creep they are still slow, on creep they are like non-stimmed Marines). Against Protoss? Make stalkers / zealots / archons / void-rays / carriers / immortals / dark-templars (no detect in uprooted state) / other anti-ground unit - everyone counters spores easily, especially when they are more expensive, like spines. Who is actually going banshees vs. zerg right now? Also, I didn't mention protoss. I didn't see it as a problem really, so I don't know why you're responding to it. BUT now that you bring it up, it kind of does lower the skill ceiling. You say use those ground units, but some players (cough, Catz) are using spores and swarm hosts to keep the ground army and air army up. Now imagine just being able to keep those thngs uprooted...sounds inelegant. That's all. | ||
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