EPTBlizzard's Potential Balance Test Map Changes - Page 24
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On April 23 2013 23:40 mprs wrote: Well, I think you still want players to make a cost analysis, otherwise you might as well just give it to them for free. I'd be ok with that :p Free siege tech, free burrow?  | ||
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DavoS
United States4605 Posts
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RandomAccount#282689
42 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On April 24 2013 01:05 danl9rm wrote: I'd be ok with that :p Free siege tech, free burrow? Would be fun against protoss, burrow your scout drone to block their nexus until observers are out. Alternatively burrow it to prevent wall-off and just early pool every game. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:39 ishmoks wrote: Regarding rewarding high level players, check out Artosis blog post "The Raised Skill Ceiling: HotS vs BW" at http://scdojo.tumblr.com/ What he wrote makes sense. Sadly he only looks at how the new game mechanics affect high level players ... who can manage the additional power of not having to "battle the (movement) AI and unit selection mechanics" really nicely, but for the average players it is a totally different story. They are overwhelmed by the amount of stuff and thus the biggest part of being good is the ability to split-second-multitask. Just watch TLO streaming and you will see him switching his view 3-4 times per second in constant action while a normal player might switch once every 5 seconds maybe. SC2 has the power, but for most people this amount of power is too much to handle and that is where BW was better, because the stuff you had to "fight" (unit selection limit, movement, low production) leveled the playing field between the players to such an extent that you games werent such easy walkovers as they are in SC2 on the lower end of the scale IF you manage to get one of several stupidly powerful and gimmicky units going. Banelings, warp-ins in the enemy base, Nydus worms are some of the examples, but now we have to add Oracles, Mutalisks, Speed-Medivacs and a few more to the list. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3509 Posts
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
How are hellbats in any way balanced? Simply put they are zealots ( without charge) with an AoE damage setup, better armor ( no 0 defense shields), biological ( yeah.....) so can be healed, but also mechanical ( yeah..) so can be repaired, and the ability to become a very cheap and fast harassing unit (helions). How are oracles in any way balanced? Initially a "worker-friendly" harassing unit, it's now just a fast unit that 2-shots workers. With the exception of the opportunity cost of opening stargate instead of more late-game focused unit, this unit is unbelievably OP. You can clear a whole mineral line with 2 oracles in just a few seconds, and now they wonder if they should be even FASTER. You know, I used to say " replace the SC2 team", but seeing how much of a trainwreck D3 and WoW are, I think it's their Ace team.... | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 24 2013 01:05 danl9rm wrote: Free siege tech, free burrow? Free boring game with nothing to decide? How about making Warp Gate or Blink free as well, because Protoss needs to get some free stuff too, eh? | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On April 24 2013 01:26 Patate wrote: How are hellbats in any way balanced? Simply put they are zealots ( without charge) with an AoE damage setup, better armor ( no 0 defense shields), biological ( yeah.....) so can be healed, but also mechanical ( yeah..) so can be repaired, and the ability to become a very cheap and fast harassing unit (helions). How are oracles in any way balanced? Initially a "worker-friendly" harassing unit, it's now just a fast unit that 2-shots workers. With the exception of the opportunity cost of opening stargate instead of more late-game focused unit, this unit is unbelievably OP. You can clear a whole mineral line with 2 oracles in just a few seconds, and now they wonder if they should be even FASTER. . They also have significantly less HP, are significantly slower, can't be built anywhere on the map, can't dash, and don't auto regen a large amount of their HP for free. | ||
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unsaintly
Germany687 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 24 2013 01:05 danl9rm wrote: I'd be ok with that :p Free siege tech, free burrow? Free charge? Free Blink? Free Warp gate? | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On April 24 2013 01:24 Rabiator wrote: Sadly he only looks at how the new game mechanics affect high level players ... who can manage the additional power of not having to "battle the (movement) AI and unit selection mechanics" really nicely, but for the average players it is a totally different story. They are overwhelmed by the amount of stuff and thus the biggest part of being good is the ability to split-second-multitask. Just watch TLO streaming and you will see him switching his view 3-4 times per second in constant action while a normal player might switch once every 5 seconds maybe. SC2 has the power, but for most people this amount of power is too much to handle and that is where BW was better, because the stuff you had to "fight" (unit selection limit, movement, low production) leveled the playing field between the players to such an extent that you games werent such easy walkovers as they are in SC2 on the lower end of the scale IF you manage to get one of several stupidly powerful and gimmicky units going. Banelings, warp-ins in the enemy base, Nydus worms are some of the examples, but now we have to add Oracles, Mutalisks, Speed-Medivacs and a few more to the list. You have clearly never been wraith rushed or lurker dropped in brood war. You had all the goofy cheeses in addition to fighting the AI to do what you wanted. In sc2 it is easier to get the APM and focus to scout for that stuff. | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
What if they added some other interesting utility to the oracle like a channeled shield generator that might actually help defend against marine/marauder or roach hydra counters? Maybe reduce the damage of the oracle attack as well and make it a normal attack rather than energy based. I think that would create for a more interesting and skill-based unit that can really pay for itself throughout the entire game if it's microd well. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
OH my god. Can we start with free storm research? It would be lovely if Toss didn't to starve every bit of tech [relative to the other races]. There's a reason why the upgrade discounts only put us... on par. edit; wonder if it is too easy to scout in HoTS. Just generally WoL overlord buff probably was too much and gave zergs too much of an edge in seeing things and reducing probabilities. Scan is always solid along with other aggressive scouts terrans have and now Toss really has no excuse for being blind between free hallus and revelation. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On April 24 2013 01:24 Rabiator wrote: Sadly he only looks at how the new game mechanics affect high level players ... who can manage the additional power of not having to "battle the (movement) AI and unit selection mechanics" really nicely, but for the average players it is a totally different story. They are overwhelmed by the amount of stuff and thus the biggest part of being good is the ability to split-second-multitask. Just watch TLO streaming and you will see him switching his view 3-4 times per second in constant action while a normal player might switch once every 5 seconds maybe. SC2 has the power, but for most people this amount of power is too much to handle and that is where BW was better, because the stuff you had to "fight" (unit selection limit, movement, low production) leveled the playing field between the players to such an extent that you games werent such easy walkovers as they are in SC2 on the lower end of the scale IF you manage to get one of several stupidly powerful and gimmicky units going. Banelings, warp-ins in the enemy base, Nydus worms are some of the examples, but now we have to add Oracles, Mutalisks, Speed-Medivacs and a few more to the list. I dont want to be rude, but a good Brood War player would have destroyed a causal Brood War player even more than in Sc2. In Sc2 thanks to the lot of all ins, the weaker player (unless the skill difference is that high) has a chance to win. Sc2 is lot more forgiving than BW was. Saying Sc2 is "harder" because you don't fight the AI or UI but units is like saying Football is hard, because the ball is rounded and can go anywhere. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
That doesn't seem to be the solution to ZvZ. The problem isn't defending against mutas while in your base. The real problem is how vulnerable your muta counter army is while out on the map. Hydras and infestors, which are needed to counteract the mutas, just melt to a number of things that the muta player can throw at them. If you decide to go mutas yourself, the same problem remains in that it's really coin-flippey when actually engaging with the other guys mutas. The spore crawler buff might encourage more defensive play OR give you the option of leaving fewer units at home. Still, I'd like to see a hydra buff OR a corrupter buff in order to counteract mutas. 2nd edit: could a spore life buff be useful, too? The buff to bio damage won't matter when there are 700 mutas hovering over your defense. That could definitely affect medivac play, though...hm... Oracles are kind of easily countered now if it's spotted early on. Still, I'm kind of in the middle on how or why this is being changed. Is there something more subtle and elegant that they could do for balance? Just throwing ideas out: range increase by 1? A bit more shields? +1000 to the burrow buff. The other two races seem to have more potential for early aggression (which we haven't seen the breadth of yet with MSC & toss IMO), but anything to give zerg more early game aggression potential is good by me. 3rd Edit: What would a slight buff to hatch roaches look like? With the map sizes being so big, it could give zerg earlier rush potential that isn't totally game breaking. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1125 Posts
On April 24 2013 02:06 Erik.TheRed wrote: My main problem with the oracle is how it has this window of time where if it hasn't payed off by killing a ton of workers, it won't help at all vs any straight up counter attack (especially stim timings and the like). In fact the stargate is almost completely worthless vs terran if you haven't managed to make the oracles pay off early on and don't start to gain utility again until lategame with revelation in max army battles. What if they added some other interesting utility to the oracle like a channeled shield generator that might actually help defend against marine/marauder or roach hydra counters? Maybe reduce the damage of the oracle attack as well and make it a normal attack rather than energy based. I think that would create for a more interesting and skill-based unit that can really pay for itself throughout the entire game if it's microd well. granting vision of an army without a robo doesn't help in the counterattack? I know it's not in direct damage, but still... I understand, though, and I wonder if a +1 range increase might help with the raid on the mineral line and also in defending... Not sure, though. Actually, not totally sure why Oracle buffing is even being discussed. | ||
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RubixRambo
United States9 Posts
The burrow change would be "cool" but is it really necessary? Their reasoning of "Towards the beginning of HotS, early burrow attacks showed some decent potential but we never see it anymore. We thought this variety in opening especially on the Zerg that usually play a defensive early game was cool," isn't reason enough to patch it so early on. Admittedly no zerg ever gets burrow before lair because that 100/100 is a little to spending, and definitely not worth it if your roaches are still slow. So In short it might be cool but I wouldn't be sad to see this patch not happen. Personally, at my level of play (mid diamond) I am a lot better at macro than the other players at my level so I usually win the muta battle, but its still no fun just to spam that there T button past a certain point in the game. So this patch is welcomed and I am excited to see how much it will change. | ||
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