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Quite frankly, I'm appalled. I was expecting Code B players with money to switch, but the caliber of the players making the move is crippling for the NA scene. Imagine if you're a GM player who was looking to grab one of the 8 qualifier slots and looking to make a name for yourself? You have to seriously consider not even playing now. If you wanted the best games, I hope you're happy, we have GSL gutted, NA totally dominated by Koreans, and Europe who has to deal with freaking Mvp and friends. If you can look at me with a straight face and tell me this is working as intended, I simply won't believe you.
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haha nice, this way there are 3 interesting tournaments instead of 1. Hope koreans top8 everywhere.
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poor americans 
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Oh dear. This is.... ugh. Kinda what everybody expected I guess, if not worse.
I'm trying to look at the bright sides, though...
That's just enough Koreans to spice up EU without making it impossible for a foreigner to cause an upset. I kinda like it, actually.
NA got hit pretty hard, but for me personally (who doesn't follow the US scene much), it will actually make it more interesting to watch the NA matches.
As for KR... with many of the top players locked into NA and EU this will make room for lesser known Koreans - and Kespa players - to make a splash. Could be good.
Still.... I hope there will be changes to the format. This is all pretty messed up.
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Isn't The STC on Complexity now, not Quantic?
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On April 10 2013 20:23 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:20 Kylo55 wrote:On April 10 2013 20:16 TheSir wrote:On April 10 2013 20:02 Laryleprakon wrote:On April 10 2013 20:00 zicoz wrote:On April 10 2013 19:55 Headnoob wrote:
So Blizzard essentially killed any chance for anyone not korean to even make a notable performance.
It's like blizzard have no idea how to do anything right. In NA, pretty sure the EU scene can compete with the Koreans that chose to play there, Naniwa, Thorzain, Ret, Snute, the Spanish armada etc can make things interesting. Possibly Stephano as well. Mana, Nerchio, Grubby, Babyknight etc etc, all of them have beaten Koreans before. EU wont be a clean sweep for Koreans, thats for sure. Thats why there's 6 koreans on EU and 20 on NA  They know what they are doing There are like 4 players originaly form NA that can do sth. Idra, Goswser, Scarlet, Huk. And on EU? Stephano, Nercio, Mana, Grubby, Ret, Snute, Sase, Nani (they both will play korea probably :/), Thorzain, Vortix, Lucifron... Nani stated in the thread about him moving to Korea that he will play EU. He will still stay in Korea though, just for training purposes.
Awesome I missed him so much on WCS2012
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On April 10 2013 20:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:06 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2013 20:02 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:59 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2013 19:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:51 FXOdesRow wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. CLG backed out because there is no reason for them to invest when theres gonna be 20koreans in Premier or even more. The odds of a new CLG pick up making it far into Premier into a global season finals or make it to blizzcon is 0% It seemed like a good investment because the scene was growing. Now the scene stays the same. CLG can't get immediate results and so wants to back out? Well then shit... I guess that's how she goes. Because they have so much money to throw around fruitlessly in an industry that is far from profitable for many people. It's a business decision that makes sense. I wasn't aware that their original goal was immediate results. If that was their goal, than yes, they should back out now because immediate results aren't gonna happen. I'm not judging them for it, just saying that they obviously were not dying to throw money into the scene if something like this completely drove them away. Stop saying "immediate results", it's beyond petulant and has nothing to do with anything. This scene is not even close to being about the long term. There might not even be a long term for esports in a capacity that makes any sort of financial sense for people looking to invest money. It's chaotic and changing far too much to try and invest in anything but the short term. Like I said, they're an organization making a smart business decision to not sponsor any NA players. They were dedicated to an idea that got snuffed out, no big deal. They were clearly implying that they wanted to invest in long term growth in the scene. If it's not a big deal (and I agree that it isn't) than why is it being touted as proof that the NA scene is crumbling all around us?
Not only are they clearly implying that they want to invest longterm, the way theyve chosen to do this seems to come more and more to fruition as time goes. As i see it, theese first two or three seasons of wcs are not gonna be the best, but as with GSL its gonna grow slowly in each region, as the players solidify their status. Also, i think its without doubt that its also eventually gonna be all off line, like gsl, so that the koreans actually have to make a significant investment by living near the studio of which their regions wcs games are played, in the same way gsl has worked for foreigners... Soo all the best talent is still gonna be coming from korea, but its not gonna flood the other regions, but rather trickle out, making the other regions hard enough that you as a foreigner really have to up your play... I think, given a few years its gonna be such a strong and cool competition!
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On April 10 2013 19:49 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:42 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:
[quote]
Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere.In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. I don't see where we disagree to be honest. Investment is not only about the teams, most of the stuff you are speaking about korea and kespa teams have the advantadge of a centralized hub, and that requires investment of course, and it's what i am speaking about. This doesn't only come from the teams, but some sort of centralized league for different regions where those team have the motivation to invest. Most of the rest of your post is player bashing so i will just ignore it. Edit - And by the way, i haven't read catz (or anyone post) in the matter, i don't even use reddit. Sorry it wasn't directly posted refering to you. It got a bit longer than I usually planned to reply. I think we disagree with the fact that you would want to build a league without Korean competition in it, while you make the statement it would grow the scene, I argue it would hurt eSport. Banning a nation is never a good thing.
What do you think about a region lock based on residency like the EPS?
To make some annoying sports anology, we love it when international stars come to the Bundesliga: Lewandowski, Robben, Raul, van der Vaart, Pep Guardiola. They love them and identify themselves with them independent of nationality. English Premier league is full of international players and everybody is happy. But they want to see them for three or more years and be a part of the league, not just play half a season to grab money and go. In the German basketball league we had a lot of "cheap Americans" that didn't make it to the NBA and just changed team every (half-)season. Zero identification with the player, zero identification with the team.
I am thrilled to see Mvp and MC in EU, but it would suck if they played online and come here for two weeks and go. I want to see them stay here for a while, see them improve, see them struggle, see them adapt to life in Europe.
The foreseen problem with NA is that it has acceptable latency for Korean players and most of them have nothing to do with NA. Worst case, they just play their stuff online, go over there, lock themselves up while eating only Korean food, win money, go back. Zero identifcation with the player, zero identification with the league.
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On April 10 2013 20:16 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:09 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2013 20:06 Nerchio wrote:
You all focus on WCS only but the "transfer" of all those koreans means that they will all participate in the local tournaments too, like MLG/Dreamhack/IEMs etc Only if they actually move to live in EU/US. At the moment there's nothing much to indicate that. They don't play GSL in Korea anymore. There's nothing to play for in Korea apart from GSTL which takes up some time but not everything. Korean events have seen a huge reduction in numbers with the new WCS format, so Koreans have a lot of free time in their schedules to go to every foreign event their teams can send them to, especially since they can earn WCS points along the way. Koreans need to go to foreign events to get exposure and money now. The new WCS system has changed the structure of EVERYTHING, not only the structure of the WCS leagues themselves. All the scenes will change drastically.
MLG is already filled to the brim with Korean players.
How many of the players moving to EU/US actually play in the GSL at the moment?
Most tournaments have always been open to Korean players, but almost exclusively Korean players on foreign teams have attended. It's more a question of whether the Korean teams have money for/interest in seeing their players abroad. I don't see that changing drastically.
Nerchio must be concerned about the European tournaments. The tendency for more Koreans participating there was already happening, regardless of WCS (see their upcoming tournament).
I don't see WCS making all that much of a change in Korean participation in European tournaments, to be honest.
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This is kinda bad
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Reading CatZ post on reddit and the other blog posts from pro players, I thought that the problem was over-stated and that realistically not that many Koreans would play in the other leagues because of practical problems of playing tournaments in other countries.
Seems that I was wrong. This is shaping up to be the dumbest tournament yet, Blizzard really REALLY messed up and kinda continue to show there ignorance (at this point what else could it be?) at how ESPORTS actually works and how to help grow sc2 as a sport that is sustainable.
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On April 10 2013 20:24 AgentW wrote:
Quite frankly, I'm appalled. I was expecting Code B players with money to switch, but the caliber of the players making the move is crippling for the NA scene. Imagine if you're a GM player who was looking to grab one of the 8 qualifier slots and looking to make a name for yourself? You have to seriously consider not even playing now. If you wanted the best games, I hope you're happy, we have GSL gutted, NA totally dominated by Koreans, and Europe who has to deal with freaking Mvp and friends. If you can look at me with a straight face and tell me this is working as intended, I simply won't believe you.
Why dont you try to practice 12 a day and win some MLG or DH? I bet after this you wil make a NAME and you wont give a **** about who is your enemy and if he is from China or NY...
For everyone crying like you: WCG 2012 was 3 Koreans and 21!!!! Foreigners.Gues what? The rournament was won by a Korean nad 2 of the 3 Koreans made it to the RO8.Parting was the champion and faced Adelscott.Where is this guy now? Do you know abything about him???Is he still playing.Watching the players in the WCG 2012 is just silly.The most of them I havent heard anything about....
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this is the final nail in the coffin for sea players to have any chance in wcs unless some get invites
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On April 10 2013 20:24 AgentW wrote:
Quite frankly, I'm appalled. I was expecting Code B players with money to switch, but the caliber of the players making the move is crippling for the NA scene. Imagine if you're a GM player who was looking to grab one of the 8 qualifier slots and looking to make a name for yourself? You have to seriously consider not even playing now. If you wanted the best games, I hope you're happy, we have GSL gutted, NA totally dominated by Koreans, and Europe who has to deal with freaking Mvp and friends. If you can look at me with a straight face and tell me this is working as intended, I simply won't believe you.
I think people need to get away from the dream of an absolute nobody appearing in a tournament, crushing the competition and firmly stamp his name into the eSport scene.
The natural progression in competitive sport should be (as it is in Korea):
Show promise on ladder -> get scouted by a team -> receive training from the team -> show off your skills at a tournament
It's just none of the big teams are going their way to scout for new talent.
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On April 10 2013 20:27 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:24 AgentW wrote:
Quite frankly, I'm appalled. I was expecting Code B players with money to switch, but the caliber of the players making the move is crippling for the NA scene. Imagine if you're a GM player who was looking to grab one of the 8 qualifier slots and looking to make a name for yourself? You have to seriously consider not even playing now. If you wanted the best games, I hope you're happy, we have GSL gutted, NA totally dominated by Koreans, and Europe who has to deal with freaking Mvp and friends. If you can look at me with a straight face and tell me this is working as intended, I simply won't believe you. Why dont you try to practice 12 a day and win some MLG or DH? I bet after this you wil make a NAME and you wont give a **** about who is your enemy and if he is from China or NY...
Because I'm in Plat and have a job?
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On April 10 2013 20:26 immanentblue wrote:
Not only are they clearly implying that they want to invest longterm, the way theyve chosen to do this seems to come more and more to fruition as time goes. As i see it, theese first two or three seasons of wcs are not gonna be the best, but as with GSL its gonna grow slowly in each region, as the players solidify their status. Also, i think its without doubt that its also eventually gonna be all off line, like gsl, so that the koreans actually have to make a significant investment by living near the studio of which their regions wcs games are played, in the same way gsl has worked for foreigners... Soo all the best talent is still gonna be coming from korea, but its not gonna flood the other regions, but rather trickle out, making the other regions hard enough that you as a foreigner really have to up your play... I think, given a few years its gonna be such a strong and cool competition!
Kudos!
Uf, we need to see more of such posts.
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This will be interesting, especially when they have to develop newer tactics to defeat the Korean players.
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Oh god, if these koreans actually end up coming to the United States by the time the next IEM season starts up, its gonna be even more korean loaded than last year for the Americas region..
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On April 10 2013 20:06 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something...I Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. They all have been code S players at some point in the past year most making deep runs. To tell me that list isn't among the best Koreans out there is just a flat lie. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level. Only 3 of them are Code S... The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet. I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete. Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His. I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude.
LOL and it is his fault he doesn't have a training house where he can play as much as he needs everyday with food and living taken care of. So sorry he probably has to work part to full time then on top of that most likely has to go to school because he is given no opportunity. The best player in na will stay the way they are not because of lack of determination or will but the fact that they have more responsibility and less time in the day. How many people you think would give it all up for 3 meals a day and a computer? I know a Damn lot of them but that is not even an option its a spit in the face to call these players out like they are sitting with the same exact settings and life of these Koreans and expect the same results. And by letting these top players come over instead of opening up options you are hamstringing them before anything even happens.
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On April 10 2013 20:27 baldgye wrote:
Reading CatZ post on reddit and the other blog posts from pro players, I thought that the problem was over-stated and that realistically not that many Koreans would play in the other leagues because of practical problems of playing tournaments in other countries.
Seems that I was wrong. This is shaping up to be the dumbest tournament yet, Blizzard really REALLY messed up and kinda continue to show there ignorance (at this point what else could it be?) at how ESPORTS actually works and how to help grow sc2 as a sport that is sustainable.
Could you please provide some arguments?...
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EPT
