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On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level.
They were good players,but now are bit worse and thats why are in Code B or less.Even Code B in Korea is better than GM in EU or NA.Killing our scene??? Everytime a Foreigner face MVP or NEstea there is a lot of people watching,why would this change now? HuK,Thorzain or Naniwa beating koreans on DH or MLG were the most seen games.
Are you telling me you are upset because a guy who practice 10 h a day will beat another whoy practice 2???? Is this how EU and NA work? This is a shame.Work and dedication must be praised,not being lazy...
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On April 10 2013 20:03 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:45 Maesy wrote:Type|NarutO -- Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. This is what I have a problem with, and this is what CatZ is talking about. I quote (Catz referring to Korean culture) "They eat and breathe SC2. Go try to eat and breathe SC2 in the US and see how fast you starve". I personally (As a High Masters player) was really looking forward to even just attempt to play in this thing even if I failed terribly, just to be able to participate in this thing and get experience. What Catz says right here hits me hard because it's what hurts me the most. Even finding somewhere just to sleep and eat was difficult for me (I hopped states several times) while I practice, even with the intention of having a part-time job on the side and helping with living costs because, just from the 'culture' alone, everybody surrounding you just generally thinks you're a fucking idiot wasting your life on a video game. They can't differentiate anything and think it's like I'm playing World of Warcraft, something where there's no end and nothing to be earned. That problem is not because of the Koreans though, it's how the big teams (the ones that have the financial backing to truly achieve something) outside of Korea are being run. They do not invest in promising players and they do not lay off players who show no promise anymore.
Yep... it seems that they are feeding the lucrative and popular players, like Catz, Idra etc. just because these players get the viewership. In the long run though, for the foreigner community it is devastating.
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When GSL started Blizzard put up the money for the open seasons and the league was technically region locked as only a handful of foreigners had financial support and will to commit to a Korean visit. As the "GSL" in EU/NA is setting up Korean scene is now more developed which means that there is an well known asymmetry between KR to EU/NA. With establishment of the cloned GSL leagues we would expect the same level of region locking in EU/NA that Korea had in the early days of wings. So I think that a greater level of region locking could be needed for at least 2013.
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On April 10 2013 19:46 sage_francis wrote:
this is kinda ridiculous but yet predictibable.
Now kespa players with better practice and competitive environment will definitely dominate the sc2 scene, and it will end like good old bw days when foreigner scene did barely exist ^^
Just the way we want it. 
Ok i'm just kidding, maybe
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On April 10 2013 19:55 Headnoob wrote:
So Blizzard essentially killed any chance for anyone not korean to even make a notable performance.
It's like blizzard have no idea how to do anything right.
Why the blizzard hate? It's not like anyone actually had a chance to make a notable performance in any previous WCS...
As others have also pointed out that an "olympic" style sc2 tournament doesn't really work with the SK domination. (Could be interesting to have a European championship tho - since it's pretty much the only region with multiple nationalities without a clear winner).
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On April 10 2013 20:02 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:59 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2013 19:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:51 FXOdesRow wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. CLG backed out because there is no reason for them to invest when theres gonna be 20koreans in Premier or even more. The odds of a new CLG pick up making it far into Premier into a global season finals or make it to blizzcon is 0% It seemed like a good investment because the scene was growing. Now the scene stays the same. CLG can't get immediate results and so wants to back out? Well then shit... I guess that's how she goes. Because they have so much money to throw around fruitlessly in an industry that is far from profitable for many people. It's a business decision that makes sense. I wasn't aware that their original goal was immediate results. If that was their goal, than yes, they should back out now because immediate results aren't gonna happen. I'm not judging them for it, just saying that they obviously were not dying to throw money into the scene if something like this completely drove them away.
Stop saying "immediate results", it's beyond petulant and has nothing to do with anything. This scene is not even close to being about the long term. There might not even be a long term for esports in a capacity that makes any sort of financial sense for people looking to invest money. It's chaotic and changing far too much to try and invest in anything but the short term. Like I said, they're an organization making a smart business decision to not sponsor any NA players. They were dedicated to an idea that got snuffed out, no big deal.
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On April 10 2013 19:57 dynwar7 wrote:
Could someone help me with this.
What exactly does it mean that Koreans are moving to NA/EU? Does it mean they will not be allowed to play in their original location? So for example Polt will not be allowed to play in Korea again, as his place is now NA?
Secondly, do they physically move and live there, to EU or NA, or do they just simply play there?
Please help me someone, I am so lost in SC2 scene since that epic announcement from Blizz...WCS Korea, WCS EU, WCS NA etc...
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On April 10 2013 19:58 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level.
Only 3 of them are Code S...
The BEST Koreans, excepting one or two, aren't going anywhere as of yet.
I agree that it sucks for foreigners who were expecting an easier way. But the easy way is not the way to balance the scenes. If this shit ain't brutal then there will be no way that foreigners can ever compete.
Trust me guys, I'm a little worried too. I was absolutely expecting one of my favorite players in the world to be able to qualify easy, and now he might not. But if he doesn't than that is his fault. Not Blizzards, not Koreans. His.
I understand that NA/EU need more infrastructure. But you know what, judging by this thread. It isn't just infrastructure. It's attitude.
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You all focus on WCS only but the "transfer" of all those koreans means that they will all participate in the local tournaments too, like MLG/Dreamhack/IEMs etc
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On April 10 2013 20:05 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:55 Headnoob wrote:
So Blizzard essentially killed any chance for anyone not korean to even make a notable performance.
It's like blizzard have no idea how to do anything right. Why the blizzard hate? It's not like anyone actually had a chance to make a notable performance in any previous WCS... As others have also pointed out that an "olympic" style sc2 tournament doesn't really work with the SK domination. (Could be interesting to have a European championship tho - since it's pretty much the only region with multiple nationalities without a clear winner).
It is the best environment they can provide at this time. Once this all goes off line and the matches are weekly, in a studio, we will see fewer Korean players. The process of getting a work visa to play in NA would be a nightmare and almost impossible without a NA team(you need a sponsor for a work visa and that shit cost real money).
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On April 10 2013 19:55 snafoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:45 Maesy wrote:Type|NarutO -- Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. This is what I have a problem with, and this is what CatZ is talking about. I quote (Catz referring to Korean culture) "They eat and breathe SC2. Go try to eat and breathe SC2 in the US and see how fast you starve". I personally (As a High Masters player) was really looking forward to even just attempt to play in this thing even if I failed terribly, just to be able to participate in this thing and get experience. What Catz says right here hits me hard because it's what hurts me the most. Even finding somewhere just to sleep and eat was difficult for me (I hopped states several times) while I practice, even with the intention of having a part-time job on the side and helping with living costs because, just from the 'culture' alone, everybody surrounding you just generally thinks you're a fucking idiot wasting your life on a video game. They can't differentiate anything and think it's like I'm playing World of Warcraft, something where there's no end and nothing to be earned. I don't understand this, you realize when SC2 was first released(and even now) VERY FEW KR players had any kind of salaray and infact had to pay to live in the teamhouses/be part of the team/giving part of their winnings to the team... They barely survived. Infact Polt was buying groceries for TSL with his tournament winnings before it disbanded. So many KR teams run on very little money. How many players in NA would be prepared to get no salary, pay to live in a house, give up some of their winning whilst having little to no normal social life? None? The real issue I think is players get overvalued, when some players are getting ~$100k a year whilst teams are complaining that they can't afford to support new talent there's an issue... You think the B team players in KR have any kind of good life? It's better for eSF players then for Kespa B teamers, but still...
I'm not saying they have a good life, I'm saying it's much fucking harder to do. It's bad to barely have a roof over your head and food in front of you, but hey, you have the culture around you, all of the competition is right around you in Korea and everybody is accepting of it. That's a bit warming.
Now you look at it from a foreigner stance. Not only is it bad -- it's plain fucking awful. It's the same thing, except if you went outside and tried to explain it to somebody they would look at you like you just woke up out of some nerd dream and tell you to go suck it up and go do some physical labor. There's no "Little to no social life", there's no social life because finding someone to be supportive of your dream is going to be a nightmare.
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Hahaha, 3 Koreans Tournaments. I love it :D Full 16 koreans finals incoming :D
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On April 10 2013 20:02 pms wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:01 GreenMash wrote:
I don't know how blizzard didn't know that this was going to happen.
This will NOT even the playing field.
If it did, then foreigners would already be at the level of Koreans because every foreign tournament looks like this.
I really don't understand Blizzard They did it on purpose, and for a reason. If you don't understand it they read more interviews with Blizzard etc.
I understand the way they think. I just don't understand why they think the way they do sometimes lol
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On April 10 2013 20:06 Nerchio wrote:
You all focus on WCS only but the "transfer" of all those koreans means that they will all participate in the local tournaments too, like MLG/Dreamhack/IEMs etc
Only if they actually move to live in EU/US. At the moment there's nothing much to indicate that.
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On April 10 2013 19:52 m0ck wrote:
Shouldn't we be blaming the EU/US teams, not Blizzard? Why is Taeja forfeiting his code S spot to go US? Why is so many EG Koreans going to US, don't they see that the decision screws their players based in US? Why is the Korean project of TB going all out on US?
But it underscores an issue in SC2: Lots of money is already funneled from EU/US sponsors to Korean players, this is just a more obvious version of it. This is (to some degree) at the cost of players in the foreign scene.
If you don't like the way that WCS is shaping up, one thing to do is to complain to blizzard. Another is to complain to the EU/US teams who have decided that their Korean players should all play in US.
I don't see the issue with Blizzard moving around the pieces on the chess board and breaking up the monopoly korea has on having the top sc2 events. Also what korean wouldn't jump at the chance to come to the US if they have a sustainable way to earn a living?
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On April 10 2013 20:04 pms wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:03 JustPassingBy wrote:On April 10 2013 19:45 Maesy wrote:Type|NarutO -- Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. This is what I have a problem with, and this is what CatZ is talking about. I quote (Catz referring to Korean culture) "They eat and breathe SC2. Go try to eat and breathe SC2 in the US and see how fast you starve". I personally (As a High Masters player) was really looking forward to even just attempt to play in this thing even if I failed terribly, just to be able to participate in this thing and get experience. What Catz says right here hits me hard because it's what hurts me the most. Even finding somewhere just to sleep and eat was difficult for me (I hopped states several times) while I practice, even with the intention of having a part-time job on the side and helping with living costs because, just from the 'culture' alone, everybody surrounding you just generally thinks you're a fucking idiot wasting your life on a video game. They can't differentiate anything and think it's like I'm playing World of Warcraft, something where there's no end and nothing to be earned. That problem is not because of the Koreans though, it's how the big teams (the ones that have the financial backing to truly achieve something) outside of Korea are being run. They do not invest in promising players and they do not lay off players who show no promise anymore. Yep... it seems that they are feeding the lucrative and popular players, like Huk, Idra etc. just because these players get the viewership. In the long run though, for the foreigner community it is devastating.
Well, just to state my opinion on that, Huk and Idra are definitely good players who have repeatedly proven that they can be the best. But EG definitely needs some sort of foreign Academy like what col once had (does it still have it, I'm out of touch with the NA scene).
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On April 10 2013 20:06 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 20:02 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:59 Serpico wrote:On April 10 2013 19:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:51 FXOdesRow wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. CLG backed out because there is no reason for them to invest when theres gonna be 20koreans in Premier or even more. The odds of a new CLG pick up making it far into Premier into a global season finals or make it to blizzcon is 0% It seemed like a good investment because the scene was growing. Now the scene stays the same. CLG can't get immediate results and so wants to back out? Well then shit... I guess that's how she goes. Because they have so much money to throw around fruitlessly in an industry that is far from profitable for many people. It's a business decision that makes sense. I wasn't aware that their original goal was immediate results. If that was their goal, than yes, they should back out now because immediate results aren't gonna happen. I'm not judging them for it, just saying that they obviously were not dying to throw money into the scene if something like this completely drove them away. Stop saying "immediate results", it's beyond petulant and has nothing to do with anything. This scene is not even close to being about the long term. There might not even be a long term for esports in a capacity that makes any sort of financial sense for people looking to invest money. It's chaotic and changing far too much to try and invest in anything but the short term. Like I said, they're an organization making a smart business decision to not sponsor any NA players. They were dedicated to an idea that got snuffed out, no big deal.
They were clearly implying that they wanted to invest in long term growth in the scene.
If it's not a big deal (and I agree that it isn't) than why is it being touted as proof that the NA scene is crumbling all around us?
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Congratulations Blizzard :D
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On April 10 2013 19:56 Dodgin wrote:Okay so I'm interested in people's opinions on this. Yes you TL user, I'm talking to you, even if you're a lurker who's never made a single post I encourage you to vote. As a spectator, what would you enjoy watching more? Poll: As a spectator, what kind of WCS would you enjoy more?WCS EU, Lots of EU foreigners, MMA/MC/Mvp and a few Koreans (79) 59% WCS KR, GSL is always the best (46) 34% WCS NA, Lots of Korean players and NA pro players (10) 7% 135 total votes Your vote: As a spectator, what kind of WCS would you enjoy more? (Vote): WCS NA, Lots of Korean players and NA pro players
(Vote): WCS EU, Lots of EU foreigners, MMA/MC/Mvp and a few Koreans
(Vote): WCS KR, GSL is always the best
Okay so the results pretty much confirms what I was thinking, what foreigners want to see is the best foreigners (EU players minus scarlett) competing with Koreans that have a legacy behind them, and not too many Koreans. Three big name players in EU is the perfect amount to add legitimacy to the tournament without making it so there's no hope for the foreigners to win. MMA, Mvp and MC are all fan favorites with lots of history behind them, the casters can tell the story of those players to the casual fans and get them into the korean vs foreigner storyline. EU also has the best broadcasting times for sc2, morning/afternoon EU and evening NA is prime streaming time.
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On April 10 2013 20:09 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:52 m0ck wrote:
Shouldn't we be blaming the EU/US teams, not Blizzard? Why is Taeja forfeiting his code S spot to go US? Why is so many EG Koreans going to US, don't they see that the decision screws their players based in US? Why is the Korean project of TB going all out on US?
But it underscores an issue in SC2: Lots of money is already funneled from EU/US sponsors to Korean players, this is just a more obvious version of it. This is (to some degree) at the cost of players in the foreign scene.
If you don't like the way that WCS is shaping up, one thing to do is to complain to blizzard. Another is to complain to the EU/US teams who have decided that their Korean players should all play in US. I don't see the issue with Blizzard moving around the pieces on the chess board and breaking up the monopoly korea has on having the top sc2 events. Also what korean wouldn't jump at the chance to come to the US if they have a sustainable way to earn a living?
Listen to this weeks Inside the Game, they give a bunch of reasons, mostly that most Koreans do not like living in "not Korea".
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EPT
