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Australia2108 Posts
So Blizzard essentially killed any chance for anyone not korean to even make a notable performance.
It's like blizzard have no idea how to do anything right.
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On April 10 2013 19:45 Maesy wrote:Type|NarutO -- Show nested quote +Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. This is what I have a problem with, and this is what CatZ is talking about. I quote (Catz referring to Korean culture) "They eat and breathe SC2. Go try to eat and breathe SC2 in the US and see how fast you starve". I personally (As a High Masters player) was really looking forward to even just attempt to play in this thing even if I failed terribly, just to be able to participate in this thing and get experience. What Catz says right here hits me hard because it's what hurts me the most. Even finding somewhere just to sleep and eat was difficult for me (I hopped states several times) while I practice, even with the intention of having a part-time job on the side and helping with living costs because, just from the 'culture' alone, everybody surrounding you just generally thinks you're a fucking idiot wasting your life on a video game. They can't differentiate anything and think it's like I'm playing World of Warcraft, something where there's no end and nothing to be earned.
I don't understand this, you realize when SC2 was first released(and even now) VERY FEW KR players had any kind of salaray and infact had to pay to live in the teamhouses/be part of the team/giving part of their winnings to the team... They barely survived. Infact Polt was buying groceries for TSL with his tournament winnings before it disbanded. So many KR teams run on very little money. How many players in NA would be prepared to get no salary, pay to live in a house, give up some of their winning whilst having little to no normal social life? None? The real issue I think is players get overvalued, when some players are getting ~$100k a year whilst teams are complaining that they can't afford to support new talent there's an issue...
You think the B team players in KR have any kind of good life? It's better for eSF players then for Kespa B teamers, but still...
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On April 10 2013 19:49 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:42 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:
[quote]
Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere.In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. I don't see where we disagree to be honest. Investment is not only about the teams, most of the stuff you are speaking about korea and kespa teams have the advantadge of a centralized hub, and that requires investment of course, and it's what i am speaking about. This doesn't only come from the teams, but some sort of centralized league for different regions where those team have the motivation to invest. Most of the rest of your post is player bashing so i will just ignore it. Edit - And by the way, i haven't read catz (or anyone post) in the matter, i don't even use reddit. Sorry it wasn't directly posted refering to you. It got a bit longer than I usually planned to reply. I think we disagree with the fact that you would want to build a league without Korean competition in it, while you make the statement it would grow the scene, I argue it would hurt eSport. Banning a nation is never a good thing. I agree with leagues for EU and NA, but as I said make it a league like the GSL - that takes time and isn't as major. Don't put 50-100k$ on the line, so it actually attracts regional players but not so much Koreans/over regional players. I am all for local/regional leagues , teamhouses etc, but hosting such a major event and make it 'regionlocked' as in another region cannot participate would not be right.
I didn't say build a league withouth korean competition, i think they are key to improve other regions because of their experience (specially good player coaches/coaches) would help players/teams who are motivated enough to do that investment of moving to a team house on centralized hub, and i really hope this WCS is a movement in that direction (as i think it is), but i also think this is going to be a really weird year when you get champion EU who had been on Korea the whole time. Nothing more, i was just answering because there seem to be some thinking that WCS was useless for foreigners in the past, which is far from the truth, and that the problem i think is exactly that the korean players aren't moving so the other regions aren't really getting better practice partners/ladder.
As i see we don't disagree, except on the cheap foreigner aiming for money, but you could say the same about the koreans who are going to play NA or EU. That's why i said it's player bashing, and to be honest, i entirely disagree, it's obvious up & comers players will try to take more safer approaches to their careers.
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On April 10 2013 19:51 FXOdesRow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. CLG backed out because there is no reason for them to invest when theres gonna be 20koreans in Premier or even more. The odds of a new CLG pick up making it far into Premier into a global season finals or make it to blizzcon is 0% It seemed like a good investment because the scene was growing. Now the scene stays the same.
CLG can't get immediate results and so wants to back out? Well then shit... I guess that's how she goes.
edit: HOLY SHIT! I just realized who you are! Dude, I'm a big fan!
Still though, I think you guys are all overstating the case here.
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On April 10 2013 19:52 m0ck wrote:
Shouldn't we be blaming the EU/US teams, not Blizzard? Why is Taeja forfeiting his code S spot to go US? Why is so many EG Koreans going to US, don't they see that the decision screws their players based in US? Why is the Korean project of TB going all out on US?
But it underscores an issue in SC2: Lots of money is already funneled from EU/US sponsors to Korean players, this is just a more obvious version of it. This is (to some degree) at the cost of players in the foreign scene.
If you don't like the way that WCS is shaping up, one thing to do is to complain to blizzard. Another is to complain to the EU/US teams who have decided that their Korean players should all play in US.
Or you could actually be reasonable about it. But hey...
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Okay so I'm interested in people's opinions on this. Yes you TL user, I'm talking to you, even if you're a lurker who's never made a single post I encourage you to vote.
As a spectator, what would you enjoy watching more?
Poll: As a spectator, what kind of WCS would you enjoy more?WCS EU, Lots of EU foreigners, MMA/MC/Mvp and a few Koreans (79) 59% WCS KR, GSL is always the best (46) 34% WCS NA, Lots of Korean players and NA pro players (10) 7% 135 total votes Your vote: As a spectator, what kind of WCS would you enjoy more? (Vote): WCS NA, Lots of Korean players and NA pro players
(Vote): WCS EU, Lots of EU foreigners, MMA/MC/Mvp and a few Koreans
(Vote): WCS KR, GSL is always the best
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On April 10 2013 18:10 bduddy wrote:
Oh, Blizzard. There is nothing good about this at all. GSL is worse, the "NA" championship will be a joke, and WCS EU now has the allure of an average weekend tournament.
Exactly this. This was really poorly thought out by Blizzard.
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I guess all those NA players expecting a free lunch are out of business. Time they improved their skills and compete or expect to get steam rolled
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Could someone help me with this.
What exactly does it mean that Koreans are moving to NA/EU? Does it mean they will not be allowed to play in their original location? So for example Polt will not be allowed to play in Korea again, as his place is now NA?
Secondly, do they physically move and live there, to EU or NA, or do they just simply play there?
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Dodgin you made me vote against Mvp 
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Rediculous system... -.-
I'm really disappointed that all of these great names are giving up on GSL/OSL.
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On April 10 2013 19:51 FXOdesRow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. CLG backed out because there is no reason for them to invest when theres gonna be 20koreans in Premier or even more. The odds of a new CLG pick up making it far into Premier into a global season finals or make it to blizzcon is 0% It seemed like a good investment because the scene was growing. Now the scene stays the same.
desRow I respect you so please don't take it as offensive, but in terms of business and investment, you cannot expect to have your investment pay off within the first season. They mentioned they want to raise a talent pool and build a house, but if their goal is actually not public relation and growing the scene, but winning, they need to buy a team and then they can also buy top players.
They way they made it sound is nothing short of propaganda. If you want to raise a team and grow the scene, you can very well do it and very well succeed with it. Scarlett, Stephano to name two exceptional players that stood up against Korea without training there. European players took games off of Koreans. You can get to a level to threaten them which doesn't mean its
a) easy
b) fast
c) possible for everyone
If a team like CLG backs out because a handfull of Koreans joins the scene no one can tell me they really had interest in building the scene to begin with or they really lack sense for competition. No businessman ever will guarantee his sponsors success when expanding to a new field EVER.
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So what's the point of having a regional format again? May as well call it WCS group A, group B etc.
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On April 10 2013 19:55 Headnoob wrote:
So Blizzard essentially killed any chance for anyone not korean to even make a notable performance.
It's like blizzard have no idea how to do anything right.
How is this any different that most MLG's (and it's equivalents) last year?
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On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea.
I like how you say it like its 10 random B teamers that have never won anything. These are 10 of the BEST code S players or team aces one has won 3 gsls so ya excuse me if I'm a bit upset that the Korean SCSI won't actually have the BEST Koreans in it. Instead they come here and kill our scene that is getting off the ground finally an opportunity to raise better players finally a chance for those who play 10 hours a day to get noticed and get to make a living then be raised to compete on the highest level.
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On April 10 2013 19:56 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:51 FXOdesRow wrote:On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea. CLG backed out because there is no reason for them to invest when theres gonna be 20koreans in Premier or even more. The odds of a new CLG pick up making it far into Premier into a global season finals or make it to blizzcon is 0% It seemed like a good investment because the scene was growing. Now the scene stays the same. CLG can't get immediate results and so wants to back out? Well then shit... I guess that's how she goes.
Because they have so much money to throw around fruitlessly in an industry that is far from profitable for many people. It's a business decision that makes sense.
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mlg and esl has just gotten real LOL...
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I dont understand why people complain about the EU and NA full of Koreans.How do you expect us to raise our skill and finally compete with Koreans on same skill? We MUST face top players in our ladders/leagues and learn from them.Whats the point of WCG finals where 4 EU+4NA are fighting 8 Koreans? All the MU where a Korean is facing Foreigner are like GM vs Silver...
I am ashamed of our skill level in the TOP and now I am pretty happy that our Pros will have to raise their game and practice more to be able to compete with the "guests" form Korea.
Imagine if you live in Peru or Roumania and Barcelona or Manchester City come to your country to play the league...They will win always,but the league will gain in quality.There is a problem in Scotland for 20 years where only Glasgow Rangers and Celtic are winning the league.They asked England to join the Premeir,but were not allowed.If Manchester,Arsenal and Liverpool decide to go to Scotland and play the league I am sure Glasgow and Celtic will be pretty happy,because they will finally got a real competition HOME.So dont cry if the best koreans are coming here to help us improve and teach us play.Imagine all the replays we will got!!!
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On April 10 2013 19:52 Grovbolle wrote:
One of my business professors always said:
"Reward performance, not hard work" because at the end of the day, performance matters, hours invested does not.
And your economics professor would have scorched you for insisting on this in the context. It makes (economic) sense for the teams to reward the best performance. It doesn't necessarily for the tournament organizers.
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EPT
