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On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it.
Great post, I think everybody should realize that.
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so many new koreans are gna come up in the korean wcs now, i like it
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On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it.
So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea.
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On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere.In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment..
I don't see where we disagree to be honest. Investment is not only about the teams, most of the stuff you are speaking about korea and kespa teams have the advantadge of a centralized hub, and that requires investment of course, and it's what i am speaking about. This doesn't only come from the teams, but some sort of centralized league for different regions where those team have the motivation to invest.
Most of the rest of your post is player bashing so i will just ignore it.
Edit - And by the way, i haven't read catz (or anyone post) in the matter, i don't even use reddit.
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On April 10 2013 19:00 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:52 Charlie.Sheen wrote:
So GSL is officially KeSPA-SL now Well, let's see what ESF players have left KR... Some LG-IM players. Some MVP players. Some Azubu players. And the rest are foreign team players. So that leaves the rest of LG-IM, MVP, Azubu, and also all of Startale, Prime, NS Hoseo, FXO. Not too bad. Now let's see what Code S players will leave KR... MC Hyun Taeja That's it. 3 out of 32. That's less than 10%. Code A players from last season: Ryung Center aLive HerO That's 5 out of 16. That's still less than 30%. If it's 10% of Code S players and 30% of Code A players giving up, it's not too bad... While it initially looks like Koreans are moving house en masse, upon closer inspection, it isn't anywhere near as significant. Still something to watch out for though
Except all those koreans should make it to premier for WCS NA so that leaves AMERICA 12 spots.
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eSF players avoiding KeSPA players like the plague. KeSPA buying out top 8 Code S this season may not be far from reality...
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As I see it before this the EU/NA players couldn't compete against the Koreans except some rare tournaments. Not playing against the Koreans meant they were inexperienced in playing against top-notch players. This again meant they didn't see the flaws in their play, until they came to for instance MLG and in the later rounds ran into a Korean.
With the changed scene of "GSL's" in EU and NA with some Koreans the native EU/NA players will more often compete against Koreans and give them more experience in playing against top-notch players. I think the result will be that the number of top-notch native EU/NA players will increase, especially since they won't loose the best players in the scene to GSL in Korea.
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Get ready to see new players emerge in the GSL, possibly opening the doors to more opportunities.
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On April 10 2013 19:33 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:32 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 19:29 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:
[quote]
Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea, giving players who are not really code S (or bottom code S) the chance to just play elsewhere while staying on the same place. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. Did WCS succeed in growing the foreign scene? Personally, it was a big reason I played SC 2. I had never played SC 2 until well after WCS. After seeing that 64 "noobs" are being given a free plane ticket and a chance at "real money" I had to try playing. I mean, it was 100 times greater than WCG ever was. If they had this WCS format last year, I prob would have never picked up WoL. WoL was a shitty game to begin with. Now for the big question: Being that you don't like the game, consider the NA players to be noobs anyway, and just want free money... are you influential to the growth of the scene? Exactly how good are you? Like are you a pro I haven't heard of or something?
I didn't like WoL. No one should. I "love" HotS, though. I'm a competitive player that qualified for WCG's in BW. So, I'm not a casual type that is more worried about custom games and decals. Part of growing the foreigner scene and having people increasing their skill is to give them something to compete for. Truth of the matter is, if you're faced with working 14 hours a day at a chance at pay, you better be able to convince yourself you have decent odds. And even if you feel you have good odds, the money has to make sense or else you would be better off with a minimum wage job.
You can tell foreigners they can climb a mole hill at a chance for money or you can tell them they can climb Mount Everest. If you can't figure out which one is more motivating and going to get more takers, there's nothing to be said to you that you would comprehend. The more vigor foreigners have, the more they will practice, and, in turn, the scene's skill level will be raised.
If they kept the format from last season, I'd have a decent shot at qualifying this year. And, since it was really the only reason I picked up the game, it's prob not good for the competitive scene. But, if you think casuals types are 100% what it's about, that's your opinion that you're entitled to.
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This whole invite thing terribly contradicts the purpose of the regional finals.Blizzard, the tournament organisators (guess they want big names to carry them in the short term) and the teams made the decision to almost completely destroy the concept and the chance for talent growth in NA.
Congratulation?
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This is exactly what I feared, we're going to have 3 different groups of koreans dominating each scene, making the average player quality lower and also the average game less exciting. If the korean guys can stay as good they are in SK, they are going to have a 90%+ winrate against the non koreans. Blizzard had to pick between let everyone play everything and give players the choice how sick their schedule would be OR let everyone play their own league, no moving shit etc and give the koreans a way of gaining points over non-koreans if they are better via the season finals and other tournaments.
The only way this can become a good thing is if non koreans start living with koreans more and more non koreans are thrown into the korean schedules.
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On April 10 2013 19:21 Miss_Foxy wrote:
Knowing Blizzard, I'm pretty sure they have something planned up their sleeve, considering the fact that they were aware that it would happen.
Probably some chain-effect that we never saw before could happen and more people would join GSL in the long run, thus creating a constant supply of new players, etc.
What exactly is it you know about Blizzard that makes you have faith in them? They really seem to be botching this sc2 esports thing. They have been very slow to do anything about urgent esports issues in sc2 from the start (lag/drop problems at tournaments, many observers often make the game lag, resume from replay came 2 years late, still no lan even at tournaments, region-restriction for 2 years followed by global play that is not really all that good, done very little to protect even the top of the ladder against cheaters, bad ladder maps, no proper infrastructure for professional custom map development, etc.). WCS last year was a decent success despite some flaws in how it was carried out (like holding the NA portion concurrently with an MLG tournament), and the tournaments at BlizzCon have generally gone well, but Blizzard have never really blown us away with anything spectacular and most of the fundamental stuff that really should be fixed ASAP is still largely ignored. I like that Blizzard is paying some attention and pumping money into esports, but I don't feel they are going about it the right way.
To anyone familiar with the sc2 esports scene this announcement cannot come as a huge shock. Maybe some expected a fewer (or more) Koreans, but I doubt anyone was under the illusion that we wouldn't have 10+ Koreans playing in foreign regions when they can do the initial stages online and the offline stages are condensed into a few weekend events.
It seems obvious that if you want the best competition, then any kind of region restriction was wrong as Koreans are just the best at the moment and we only have a few foreigners who can even compete. If they wanted to grow the regional esports scenes, then the way to go is fairly heavy region restriction. Maybe a permanent residency requirement of some sort (with exceptions for the excluded regions like SEA and China). Catz wrote a very elaborate post on reddit about this. This does of course not exclude holding "international" events for all regions (as we are used to) or favoring the harder regions (Korea) by giving them a larger pricepool and better representation in the final global stage.
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Mvp is a big surprise, EU as well... Its gonna be an interesting WCS season. Can't wait. I wonder what we gonna se in GSL too, should be a lot of new players. Maybe we will see more foreigners now
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haha look at all the foreign teams putting their Koreans at their own regions.... only NesTea takes a shot at NA from a korean team. EU looks nice with MVP/MC/MMA tho....
Didn't expect MVP to go to EU and NesTea to NA but besides that there not that many surprises if this is true.
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United States33371 Posts
Catz we can't let you stay in America if you keep spouting protectionist, socialist propaganda.
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Type|NarutO --
Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment..
This is what I have a problem with, and this is what CatZ is talking about. I quote (Catz referring to Korean culture) "They eat and breathe SC2. Go try to eat and breathe SC2 in the US and see how fast you starve".
I personally (As a High Masters player) was really looking forward to even just attempt to play in this thing even if I failed terribly, just to be able to participate in this thing and get experience. What Catz says right here hits me hard because it's what hurts me the most.
Even finding somewhere just to sleep and eat was difficult for me (I hopped states several times) while I practice, even with the intention of having a part-time job on the side and helping with living costs because, just from the 'culture' alone, everybody surrounding you just generally thinks you're a fucking idiot wasting your life on a video game. They can't differentiate anything and think it's like I'm playing World of Warcraft, something where there's no end and nothing to be earned.
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I actually think blizzard might change something after seeing this...at least i hope so xD
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On April 10 2013 19:41 nkr wrote:
so many new koreans are gna come up in the korean wcs now, i like it
Ironically this will benefit the Korean up and comers more than anyone, while benefiting the established Korean players just as much as well. Pretty much a tourney for the Korean scene in general.
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On April 10 2013 19:43 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:33 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:32 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 19:29 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
So now they actually have to play better players to win something...
Oh no!
I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea, giving players who are not really code S (or bottom code S) the chance to just play elsewhere while staying on the same place. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. Did WCS succeed in growing the foreign scene? Personally, it was a big reason I played SC 2. I had never played SC 2 until well after WCS. After seeing that 64 "noobs" are being given a free plane ticket and a chance at "real money" I had to try playing. I mean, it was 100 times greater than WCG ever was. If they had this WCS format last year, I prob would have never picked up WoL. WoL was a shitty game to begin with. Now for the big question: Being that you don't like the game, consider the NA players to be noobs anyway, and just want free money... are you influential to the growth of the scene? Exactly how good are you? Like are you a pro I haven't heard of or something? You can tell foreigners they can climb a mole hill at a chance for money or you can tell them they can climb Mount Everest. If you can't figure out which one is more motivating and going to get more takers, there's nothing to be said to you that you would comprehend. The more vigor foreigners have, the more they will practice, and, in turn, the higher the more they will improve.
Now which mountain climber ever got better by sticking with mole-hills?
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this is kinda ridiculous but yet predictibable.
Now kespa players with better practice and competitive environment will definitely dominate the sc2 scene, and it will end like good old bw days when foreigner scene did barely exist ^^
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EPT
