|
France9034 Posts
This is totally fine ! 
1°) Great games everywhere, instead of only in WCS Korea and a few in WCS EU.
2°) Bringing a league style tournament to other scene is cool (but it lacks offline event, though these are harder to pull in Europe and Americe), and having Koreans in it will definitely put the bar high for foreigners, which isn't a bad thing imo. Only those who understand how to practice and to think about the game will make it far, ladder grinders won't and I'm perfectly fine with that.
I still think this needs a lot of improvements (more offline event, more cash so that foreign teams can afford better infrastructures etc), but this is a good start !
|
Really happy about this, pure north american tournaments would be kinda boring to watch without any koreans. (Remeber WCS NA ? Yeah that was where Scarlett lost 1 (ONE) Map in the ENTIRE tournament)
|
Blizzard had a wonderful way to promote esports in every country last year...now they not only fucked gsl up...they also "killed" NA's and EU's scenes.
|
So.. as an outsider... this just looks like it'll be Koreans at the top in every league? Is that right? Doesn't that suck ass?
|
On April 10 2013 19:33 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:24 Serimek wrote:Quite funny to consider this : WCS Europe Mvp : 4 GSL  MC : 2 GSL MMA : 1 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup Total : 7 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup WCS Korea Life : 1 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup DRG : 1 GSL Sniper : 1 GSL RorO : 1GSL Total : 4 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup WCS AmericaNesTea : 3 GSL Polt : 1 GSL Total : 4 GSL OtherFruitDealer (retired) : 1 GSL jjakji (lost) : 1 GSL Seed (code B) : 1 GSL Conclusion : Europe is the most stacked region with GSL winners, and NA and Korea are very close from each other :p MC, Nestea and Mvp realistically were never going to win another GSL. Why do you think they switched?
In the case of Nestea and Mvp they probably switched because if they stayed in KR they would be 1 WCS season behind and screwed on points for the global finals. Blizzard did a dumb thing and made this season of Code S the first season of WCS KR without telling anyone until all the qualification was over.
|
On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around.
What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere.
In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation.
I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this.
Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination?
I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound.
Good thing its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good.
Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment..
Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype:
How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it.
|
The new WCS, however, does give the more "well-known" pros another chance to make good earnings once again, and it opens up slots in the GSL for newer, unknown players.
We'll have to wait this out and see, but I'm expecting it to go well, considering Blizzard always has something up their sleeve.
And it increases the skill bar as well, so we'll possibly be seeing an increase of newer builds and tactics, considering the local players have got to find some way to stay ahead.
|
Seems like this has backfired badly for blizzard. Tons of non-kespa koreans fleeing the stampede and devaluing Code A.
|
On April 10 2013 19:23 pms wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:19 NapkinBox wrote:
I'm just sad that so far, this isn't going to be a "World Championship", but more of a second Super-Super Tournament. What happened to the olympic model from last year? It wasn't only about who's the "best of the best" (and you can pretty much could guess who), but the whole point was to bring everyone from all corners of the world to represent their country. I was excited when it was announced this year because I thought we were finally going to get a, in a way, world wide Code S system.
I didn't know there were a lot people who didn't give any shit about the foreign scene... The problem with olympic model for SC2 is that Koreans are far better than every other country, and regional finals basically lack prestige. Another problem is that if there will be no real global tournament (like WCS is going to be), then the international players will stay inferior to Koreans for ever. That's really boring. This answers your last point: it's not true that people don't give a shit about foreign scene, they just have different point of view than yours.
But how will players get more exposure if they stay hidden under all the first round knock outs? Having region-locked qualifiers will expose more potential players to the top and open up their scene to the public more. Facing the Koreans will be inevitable for all players that make it far in the WCS finals sure; and if they lose, well they lost to a korean which is expected, but it still gives them that experience and exposure which I believe is more important. However, if they win on that day, well they just showed the world that they can be at the top when given a chance. That wouldn't happen if koreans are flooding other regional qualifiers.
|
On April 10 2013 19:32 StarVe wrote:
Europe will be very, very exciting to watch, although I still find it strange to have people there with no connection at all to the scene they choose to be playing in.
NA is fucked for local players and will become the international brother of GSL for Koreans on foreign teams.
KR is just going to stay the same with some good and famous players gone but that'll be easily replaced by the abundance of incredible talent in Code B/Code A.
Word.
NA pros really are gonna have a very unpleasant time, though I also think Europeans won't be too happy ^_^
Safe to say that the Kespa guys are gonna fill the "void" in the GSL. Legacy of the void for real.
|
On April 10 2013 19:30 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:28 Bagi wrote:
One thing I don't really understand is Mvp to Europe. MC, Forgg and MMA make sense because they all play for European teams, makes travelling and other logistics much easier. Tails and Finale just wanna try their luck I guess. But why Mvp?
I explained the most likely reason in a previous post of mine! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407158¤tpage=7#128The lag will be quite something though, I wonder if maybe SK will set something up and MC and Mvp can both move to EU and live there during WCS.
Yeah the IM - SK partnership might have something to do with it. Still weird to see the king of wings just give up on code S like that.
|
Yeah, way to go Blizzard, I'm sure the foreign(/US specifically) SC2 scene will grow when they just get stomped and rolled over by the Koreans.
*eyeroll*
|
Zzz... easy way out. No respect
|
at this point its looking like last years format was better... just needed better execution
|
On April 10 2013 19:34 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:29 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea, giving players who are not really code S (or bottom code S) the chance to just play elsewhere while staying on the same place. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. Did WCS succeed in growing the foreign scene? Are you just trolling ? Of course it did. Go watch WCS EU last year if you don't think it gave a huge exposure to many players, and make them willing and motivated to practice. Hell, ask the south-american pro community how much that helped. And that doesn't even have anything to do with THEIR CURRENT intentions, that was pretty much get koreans to move physically to other regions to improve the training enviroments on other regions. This doesn't accomplish that.
I don't really follow the foreign scene all that much so I don't know of any of these breakout stars who came from WCS EU or South America... not saying that there aren't any, but obviously they didn't make a huge splash on the world scene because I haven't even heard of any of them.
I'm pretty sure Blizzard's intentions were both monetary (which will be satisfied by this), and potential growth in the world scene (which will, IMO, also be satisfied by this).
|
I guess we will soon be able to add MKP to that list haha (if he doesn't make it out of his gsl group)
|
On April 10 2013 19:33 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:24 Serimek wrote:Quite funny to consider this : WCS EuropeMvp : 4 GSL MC : 2 GSL MMA : 1 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup Total : 7 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup WCS KoreaLife : 1 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup DRG : 1 GSL Sniper : 1 GSL RorO : 1GSL Total : 4 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup WCS AmericaNesTea : 3 GSL Polt : 1 GSL Total : 4 GSL OtherFruitDealer (retired) : 1 GSL jjakji (lost) : 1 GSL Seed (code B) : 1 GSL Conclusion : Europe is the most stacked region with GSL winners, and NA and Korea are very close from each other :p MC, Nestea and Mvp realistically were never going to win another GSL. Why do you think they switched?
I'm not saying they were at all.
But on a side note, I remember that I was thinking that Mvp "realistically w[as] never going to win another GSL" in the beginning of 2012, considering his wrist injuries and so on...
|
Well, everyone is scared of North Korea and as it turns out it's the South that is invading US after all
Now on a more serious note, I don't think it's doomsday scenario. It's only a few players that are, let's face it, good but second tier to monsters like Flash, Life, Rain, Yoda, Innovation etc. This is healthy competition, remember that WCS is a 64 player tournament, there are still a lot of spots left. Bringing some good people to stir up the pot of players in the region is a healthy thing, it will only make non-koreans train harder if they want to accomplish something. I think that a scene that has a huge league like WCS would be fully satisfied with 300k a year and would just stagnate and say "fuck global tournaments I have this league to win and I am set".
It's a Code A-S style, you know your opponent, you can prepare for him, bring out special tailored build just for that guy. With a lot of hard work a lesser opponent can put up a good fight if he prepares.
|
I can't believe people are actually supporting this.
|
On April 10 2013 19:34 Trumpstyle wrote:
Are the koreans actually moving to US and EU or they just training in korea than just play the tournaments in EU and US when they need to??
They're not actually moving. Just flying in for like two weekends during those three months.
That's when all the foreign players need to play ladder 24/7 so they can meet those pros and catch up in skill. At least that's how Blizzard seem to have planned it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
