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On April 10 2013 19:21 Miss_Foxy wrote:
Knowing Blizzard, I'm pretty sure they have something planned up their sleeve, considering the fact that they were aware that it would happen.
Probably some chain-effect that we never saw before could happen and more people would join GSL in the long run, thus creating a constant supply of new players, etc.
I saw your previous post and I would agree that in the long term this creates a very positive effect for Korean players, but it completely screws over NA players and EU will eventually be invaded too maybe.
For now I expect WCS EU will be the most watched league, having three superstar koreans and the best foreigners.
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I just wanna know what happens to Scarlett at this point.
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On April 10 2013 18:27 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:16 Fionn wrote:
I don't think all 20 of the Koreans moving to NA will get invites. I'm sure most of them will have to qualify through the special qualifiers and/or go through the challenger league before overtaking the North American invites by season two. I'm sure Polt, Violet, Jaedong, Nestea, etc. will get invited, but guys like Center will probably have to just win the qualifier. 8 Koreans are invited to NA Premier division
That's not 100 % true, but I see where you're coming from. 16 of the 24 invites are going to North Americans, the remaining 8 invitations are going to people who are not North American. That could be both Europeans and Koreans. The last 8 spots are coming from online qualifiers. That's your 32 for this season.
Edit: When I say 16 are for North America, that includes players such as Fenix, MajOr, etc. so it's more like just America.
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"We're announcing this huge tournament that will be split into regions to encourage more participation from upcoming players in places other than Korea, but here's the kick. Professional Korean players are still going to come to each region to play and take all of the money anyways because we're not going to implement any kind of restrictions. Enjoy."
Sincerely, The tournament that's making GSL less prestigious and pulling over champions to play, causing them to not reappear in the GSL until 2014, and given they're successful, they may not even reappear in 2014.
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Quite funny to consider this :
WCS Europe
 Mvp : 4 GSL
 MC : 2 GSL
MMA : 1 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup
Total : 7 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup
WCS Korea
 Life : 1 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup
DRG : 1 GSL
Sniper : 1 GSL
RorO : 1GSL
Total : 4 GSL + 1 GSL Blizzard cup
WCS America
NesTea : 3 GSL
Polt : 1 GSL
Total : 4 GSL
Other
FruitDealer (retired) : 1 GSL
jjakji (lost) : 1 GSL
Seed (code B) : 1 GSL
Conclusion : Europe is the most stacked region with GSL winners, and NA and Korea are very close from each other :p
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On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know.
Well, I watched the EU WCS (even most of the country qualifiers), and it was amazing (especially the finals Dreamhack did). The NA I didn't watch for many reasons. For one, I live in Europe so I care more about that scene. Also, EU has better games and I don't really relate to most NA players. But the biggest reason is that MLG/Blizzard completely butchered the NA WCS because it was like an unimportant tournament happening at the same time as a stacked MLG. I'm pretty sure I would have watched some of the finals at least if it were properly produced.
As for your first point, it's been discussed to death so I won't repeat things here. You can read CatZ's post on reddit if you like, he makes some good points regarding that.
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On April 10 2013 18:52 Zane wrote:
The king and the president have set their eyes on Europe. But a part of the tournament is played online, right? Not sure how KR->EU will work.
This, I tried EU->KR and it was like a full second delay, which makes it pretty unplayable for noobsich me, let alone a pro. Is KR->EU better? Or is it different per place?
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hahaha, blizzard wanted ppl to watch koreans play in korea, foreigners in europe and america and now koreans move to europe and america, we can metagame them and move to korea, sic
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On April 10 2013 18:57 grungust wrote:
Jaedong forfeit coda a?????? This is so fucking stupid. Blizzard what have you done.
He wouldn't have got into the WCS regional finals this season thanks to the way the system works.
I'd rather see Jaedong destroy people in the regional finals than code A :p
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On April 10 2013 19:25 Mangooze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:52 Zane wrote:
The king and the president have set their eyes on Europe. But a part of the tournament is played online, right? Not sure how KR->EU will work. This, I tried EU->KR and it was like a full second delay, which makes it pretty unplayable for noobsich me, let alone a pro. Is KR->EU better? Or is it different per place?
Well Moman made it to kr high masters playing from france if I remember correctly. So I guess there may be places where it's playable, and you have to keep in mind t hat the internet in korea is way way better. Didn't hyun make a shit ton of money playing in eu/na cups from kr?
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On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know.
Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea, giving players who are not really code S (or bottom code S) the chance to just play elsewhere while staying on the same place.
I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On April 10 2013 18:56 Broodwurst wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:54 Qikz wrote:
The only thing is (TotalBiscuit if you read this)
Why are you sending the Axiom guys to the US and not Europe? The team has no connection to the EU, why would they?
TotalBiscuit is English... Him and his wife AFAIK are both European. :p
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One thing I don't really understand is Mvp to Europe. MC, Forgg and MMA make sense because they all play for European teams, makes travelling and other logistics much easier. Tails and Finale just wanna try their luck I guess. But why Mvp?
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On April 10 2013 19:25 budar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Well, I watched the EU WCS (even most of the country qualifiers), and it was amazing (especially the finals Dreamhack did). The NA I didn't watch for many reasons. For one, I live in Europe so I care more about that scene. Also, EU has better games and I don't really relate to most NA players. But the biggest reason is that MLG/Blizzard completely butchered the NA WCS because it was like an unimportant tournament happening at the same time as a stacked MLG. I'm pretty sure I would have watched some of the finals at least if it were properly produced. As for your first point, it's been discussed to death so I won't repeat things here. You can read CatZ's post on reddit if you like, he makes some good points regarding that.
I skimmed Catz post, but as far as I could see he was making the same arguments everyone here seems to be making:
That the scene could have grown more if they did XYZ.
Only he (and everyone else) is couching that argument in completely different language. Instead of saying: the scene could have grown more, they are saying: "The scene has been killed."
I would put my money on WCS NA getting more viewers now than it ever got. I would also put my money on WCS EU getting at least similar (if not more) viewer numbers as before. I would also put my money on an overall increase in foreigner skill level because of this.
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On April 10 2013 19:26 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:57 grungust wrote:
Jaedong forfeit coda a?????? This is so fucking stupid. Blizzard what have you done. He wouldn't have got into the WCS regional finals this season thanks to the way the system works. I'd rather see Jaedong destroy people in the regional finals than code A :p
I think his "problem" is that Blizzard took the most prestigious tournament that every Korean strived to participate in and made it so that players choose not to compete in it.
Imagine Jaedong having to face MC or MVP to get into the next Code S season, now neither of them are there.
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On April 10 2013 19:24 Maesy wrote:
"We're announcing this huge tournament that will be split into regions to encourage more participation from upcoming players in places other than Korea, but here's the kick. Professional Korean players are still going to come to each region to play and take all of the money anyways because we're not going to implement any kind of restrictions. Enjoy."
Sincerely, The tournament that's making GSL less prestigious and pulling over champions to play, causing them to not reappear in the GSL until 2014, and given they're successful, they may not even reappear in 2014.
Citation that shows that the bold part is blizzard's goal?
I thought it was to get more Korean to move to NA / EUR to improve the practice environment overseas.
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On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea, giving players who are not really code S (or bottom code S) the chance to just play elsewhere while staying on the same place. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around.
Did WCS succeed in growing the foreign scene?
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On April 10 2013 19:27 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:56 Broodwurst wrote:On April 10 2013 18:54 Qikz wrote:
The only thing is (TotalBiscuit if you read this)
Why are you sending the Axiom guys to the US and not Europe? The team has no connection to the EU, why would they? TotalBiscuit is English... Him and his wife AFAIK are both European. :p
I'm pretty sure Genna is american
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On April 10 2013 19:27 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:56 Broodwurst wrote:On April 10 2013 18:54 Qikz wrote:
The only thing is (TotalBiscuit if you read this)
Why are you sending the Axiom guys to the US and not Europe? The team has no connection to the EU, why would they? TotalBiscuit is English... Him and his wife AFAIK are both European. :p
you're wrong, Genna Bain, TotalBiscuit's wife, is American, and TotalBiscuit just got his green card.
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On April 10 2013 19:27 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 18:56 Broodwurst wrote:On April 10 2013 18:54 Qikz wrote:
The only thing is (TotalBiscuit if you read this)
Why are you sending the Axiom guys to the US and not Europe? The team has no connection to the EU, why would they? TotalBiscuit is English... Him and his wife AFAIK are both European. :p
Pretty sure Genna Bain is American. And TB emigrated to the US, no?
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EPT
