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EU looks good, a few classy Koreans and some good European players, will be interesting. NA is going to be a bit stronger than EU looking at the number of Koreans entering. Apart from Scarlett though I do not see any NA player properly competing for top spots, the region was lacking in top quality talent but I am not sure bombarding the scene with tons of Korean pros is the best thing for NA in the long run, we will see I suppose.
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On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea.
With 2 "homegrown" Koreans (Violet and Polt) NA players would get to play matches that were streamed and get to promote their sponsors. With 20 Koreans their onscreen time is very limited which gives fever eyes for their sponsors. and that makes it a poor investment compared to say CSL/LOL.
The exception is off course the "International" teams like EG, TL and Axiom that can send all their Koreans to get the all the onscreen time they can ask for.
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On April 10 2013 19:45 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:43 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 19:33 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:32 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 19:29 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea, giving players who are not really code S (or bottom code S) the chance to just play elsewhere while staying on the same place. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. Did WCS succeed in growing the foreign scene? Personally, it was a big reason I played SC 2. I had never played SC 2 until well after WCS. After seeing that 64 "noobs" are being given a free plane ticket and a chance at "real money" I had to try playing. I mean, it was 100 times greater than WCG ever was. If they had this WCS format last year, I prob would have never picked up WoL. WoL was a shitty game to begin with. Now for the big question: Being that you don't like the game, consider the NA players to be noobs anyway, and just want free money... are you influential to the growth of the scene? Exactly how good are you? Like are you a pro I haven't heard of or something? You can tell foreigners they can climb a mole hill at a chance for money or you can tell them they can climb Mount Everest. If you can't figure out which one is more motivating and going to get more takers, there's nothing to be said to you that you would comprehend. The more vigor foreigners have, the more they will practice, and, in turn, the higher the more they will improve. Now which mountain climber ever got better by sticking with mole-hills?
Wow, talk about taking an analogy as literally as possible. Just because something starts out looking like an easy task doesn't mean it ends up being an easy task a year or two later. When everyone starts out with a mindset of being able to achieve something, they all practice like they can do it if they want it enough. Before you know it, the scene is getting a lot better and you have to play a lot to not fall behind.
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On April 10 2013 19:42 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere.In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. I don't see where we disagree to be honest. Investment is not only about the teams, most of the stuff you are speaking about korea and kespa teams have the advantadge of a centralized hub, and that requires investment of course, and it's what i am speaking about. This doesn't only come from the teams, but some sort of centralized league for different regions where those team have the motivation to invest. Most of the rest of your post is player bashing so i will just ignore it. Edit - And by the way, i haven't read catz (or anyone post) in the matter, i don't even use reddit.
Sorry it wasn't directly posted refering to you. It got a bit longer than I usually planned to reply. I think we disagree with the fact that you would want to build a league without Korean competition in it, while you make the statement it would grow the scene, I argue it would hurt eSport. Banning a nation is never a good thing.
I agree with leagues for EU and NA, but as I said make it a league like the GSL - that takes time and isn't as major. Don't put 50-100k$ on the line, so it actually attracts regional players but not so much Koreans/over regional players. I am all for local/regional leagues , teamhouses etc, but hosting such a major event and make it 'regionlocked' as in another region cannot participate would not be right.
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Kind of makes you wonder what the purpose of region locked areas are. Clearly no foreigners are getting through that list.
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On April 10 2013 19:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:35 Type|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:47 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2013 18:41 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 18:37 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 18:34 sc2superfan101 wrote:
Can someone please explain how this ruins anything?
Keep in mind that a GSL style NA/EU tournament with similar prize money didn't exist before this. Keep in mind that every country had a WCS last season and Koreans were only playing in the Korean WCS. Thus, non Koreans could actually win something... So now they actually have to play better players to win something... Oh no! I'm sorry but I'm having a real hard time sympathizing with all this entitlement coming out of the foreign scene right now. There will always be international tournaments with tons of top koreans stomping foreigners, but many wanted WCS to be the starcraft olympics. National champions being sent to the world final etc. Would you not enjoy that? Some regional competission leading up to a world final on top of all the international stuff? Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level. (emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. What grows the scene is INVESTMENT and DETERMINATION. All people who read CatZ post on reddit and think its clever really need to put some more thought into it. Korea didn't start with an eSports scene. They did build it with a huge playerbase. Teams / amateurs put up houses to practice in and pay fees to play there. Its not like they magically appeared and it was SKTelecomT1, CJ Entus, T8, STX SouL appearing from nowhere. In Europe and NA sponsors do more or less see 'us' / teams as product placement in eSports, but do they really care and support the scene because the scene is important? Don't know about that. In Korea its good image / good investment for a sponsor to invest into a starleague, into a team, because its not just product placement but overall public relation. I mentioned that a powerhouse like EG with potentially the money should host a house for 16 players, let them pay a certain amount so you can cover the costs at least by 70-90% so they have a house to practice in and food. Give them a schedule and potentially some experiecend coach, doesn't need to be a professional Korean one. The scene will grow based on something like this. Money ofcourse bringts interest, but if you really think it would improve the scene that you can easily get money in NA/EU you are wrong. Progamers wouldn't practice harder, just because they can get money more easily now. If they want to win money right now, they at least need to compete with Koreans - while if you make it region locked - banned Koreans - you can just stick at your level and yes, you can win money - you can sustain yourself, but is that motivation to increase skill and put more into it? Is it reason for more determination? I don't think so. Cheap pros look for easy money, while others look for skill. I understand all progamers and their arguments about money and that determination alone isn't enough to cover costs and put food on the table, but there's more to "give us money, we play" than some people make it sound. Good think its not nation-locked, Koreans should be there and play, the level will increase regardless of them playing only against each other or ladder , but at least we will see foreigners training and trying to get and steal games from Koreans. If we end up with 2 foreigners that are worthy in WCS global finals I am very happy. If we see an all Korean Final, also good. Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. Also towards the statement of CLGs manager @ CatZ skype: How ridiculous is that. If I were to sponsor a team and would see so much lack of determination and sense for competition I'd immediately quit them. Hilarious - how did they want to GROW TALENT to begin with when they only jump in and expect victories? Talents don't win from the start - you need to put time and money into it and it EVENTUALLY pays off, nothing guaranteed. Now a handfull of Koreans comes over that are good but they are human and you can potentially beat them and they just quit? Well right there you got the reason why Korea is superior to EU/US. Its right there, just look at it. So much this. I cannot for the life of me understand why these altruists who were gonna just pour money into the scene would run away because 10 Koreans moved into the scene. Obviously they weren't all that dedicated to the idea.
CLG backed out because there is no reason for them to invest when theres gonna be 20koreans in Premier or even more. The odds of a new CLG pick up making it far into Premier into a global season finals or make it to blizzcon is 0%
It seemed like a good investment because the scene was growing. Now the scene stays the same.
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Does SK have any kind of house/facilities in europe? I can't imagine MC and MVP playing EU from KR, and flying out for every offline tournament is going to be quite expensive.
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On April 10 2013 19:42 blackbrrd wrote:
As I see it before this the EU/NA players couldn't compete against the Koreans except some rare tournaments. Not playing against the Koreans meant they were inexperienced in playing against top-notch players. This again meant they didn't see the flaws in their play, until they came to for instance MLG and in the later rounds ran into a Korean.
With the changed scene of "GSL's" in EU and NA with some Koreans the native EU/NA players will more often compete against Koreans and give them more experience in playing against top-notch players. I think the result will be that the number of top-notch native EU/NA players will increase, especially since they won't loose the best players in the scene to GSL in Korea.
This is it. People need to realize, that the gap between foreigners and Koreans was growing in the last two years. Remember Jinro? Huk? Naniwa? Stephano? Remember who was winning MLG, who got top4, top8 of GSL? And who is in GSL now? There is not even one foreigner there. MLG top8 has not seen a foreigner for some time already... The gap is growing.
So either we change something, or the gap will grow even further...
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All these clusterfucks just made me question why they decided to do away with the successful 2012 WCS model?
I dig a little deeper and the guy behind last year's events (Ilja Rotelli) has quit Blizzard since October last year and is now with Riot Games. This might be part of the reason why WCS is so different this year. Disappointing.
edit: Seriously, read this interview from last year's WCS and see how much more sense it made....
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306396
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One of my business professors always said:
"Reward performance, not hard work" because at the end of the day, performance matters, hours invested does not.
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ok i will not watch the wcs na, the good joke.
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Shouldn't we be blaming the EU/US teams, not Blizzard? Why is Taeja forfeiting his code S spot to go US? Why is so many EG Koreans going to US, don't they see that the decision screws their players based in US? Why is the Korean project of TB going all out on US?
But it underscores an issue in SC2: Lots of money is already funneled from EU/US sponsors to Korean players, this is just a more obvious version of it. This is (to some degree) at the cost of players in the foreign scene.
If you don't like the way that WCS is shaping up, one thing to do is to complain to blizzard. Another is to complain to the EU/US teams who have decided that their Korean players should all play in US.
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I wouldn't even consider forGG a korean ''moving'' to eu,he already has forfeited his code A spot a year ago to live in France.
He's now a legit european competitor :p
Overall i'm pretty satisfied for EU,a few yet pretty good name came to join us,also any of them can be taken down by an European player,this will undoubtedly improve the event quality ( a bit surprised about daisy and real not joining us tho )
NA on the other hand is out of control,i feel like seeing an april fools joke...
seriously ? what the fuck is this shit ?
No,just NO.
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On April 10 2013 19:48 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:45 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:43 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 19:33 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:32 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 19:29 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level.
(emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea, giving players who are not really code S (or bottom code S) the chance to just play elsewhere while staying on the same place. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. Did WCS succeed in growing the foreign scene? Personally, it was a big reason I played SC 2. I had never played SC 2 until well after WCS. After seeing that 64 "noobs" are being given a free plane ticket and a chance at "real money" I had to try playing. I mean, it was 100 times greater than WCG ever was. If they had this WCS format last year, I prob would have never picked up WoL. WoL was a shitty game to begin with. Now for the big question: Being that you don't like the game, consider the NA players to be noobs anyway, and just want free money... are you influential to the growth of the scene? Exactly how good are you? Like are you a pro I haven't heard of or something? You can tell foreigners they can climb a mole hill at a chance for money or you can tell them they can climb Mount Everest. If you can't figure out which one is more motivating and going to get more takers, there's nothing to be said to you that you would comprehend. The more vigor foreigners have, the more they will practice, and, in turn, the higher the more they will improve. Now which mountain climber ever got better by sticking with mole-hills? Wow, talk about taking an analogy as literal as possible. Just because something starts out looking like an easy task doesn't mean it ends up being an easy task a year or two later. When everyone starts out with a mindset of being able to achieve something, they all practice like they can do it if they want it enough. Before you know it, the scene is getting a lot better and you have to play a lot to not fall behind.
Or you get easy money for relatively little effort and human nature dictates that you will not work for the extra cherry on top, but stick with working enough to get your easy money. Sure the scene will become slightly more competitive... maybe. But it will never reach Korean status because there would be absolutely no incentive to do so. Meanwhile, little Korean boy is still stuck looking at his Mt. Everest that grows larger every day by leaps and bounds and says... fuck it. So in the end you have a bloated, inferior NA/EU scene and a ridiculously over-saturated, hyper-superior Korean scene.
Could they have done it better than they have? Sure. They should have made the entire thing offline. Other than that... this is the way to go. Sure, it's gonna be painful for people who thought this was their ticket to easy cash. But pro sports isn't about the ticket to easy cash.
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On April 10 2013 19:45 Maesy wrote:Type|NarutO -- Show nested quote +Don't know whats wrong with people nowadays, NA / EU people act like they put more on the line being a progamer than someone from Korea does, when the truth is that they put everything on the line and practice hard. Lots of them don't finish school (?) dont start job training etc. How many people / progamers do you think failed on their way to being successful? Now think about how much sallary EU/NA players get compared to an amateur Korean who PAYS to play in a good training environment.. This is what I have a problem with, and this is what CatZ is talking about. I quote (Catz referring to Korean culture) "They eat and breathe SC2. Go try to eat and breathe SC2 in the US and see how fast you starve". I personally (As a High Masters player) was really looking forward to even just attempt to play in this thing even if I failed terribly, just to be able to participate in this thing and get experience. What Catz says right here hits me hard because it's what hurts me the most. Even finding somewhere just to sleep and eat was difficult for me (I hopped states several times) while I practice, even with the intention of having a part-time job on the side and helping with living costs because, just from the 'culture' alone, everybody surrounding you just generally thinks you're a fucking idiot wasting your life on a video game. They can't differentiate anything and think it's like I'm playing World of Warcraft, something where there's no end and nothing to be earned.
So how does the 'initial plan' of CLG sound to you? Raising a talent pool and build a house? I cannot proof it was a lie to begin with, so I'll leave it at that. They could cover your rent/food as you live in their house and potentially charge you a small amount of money for it. Its an investment for them but its not huge if they have backup sponsors. I really named it multiple times - I don't know why no big team does it. I think its actually really not that expensive and is good public relation and grows the scene. Win - Win to me.
I can understand that being a progamer as in being alone with the need of food and rent is nearly impossible without support from either family/friends or a team.
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Haha poor Polt  Here he thought he would get an easy time, only MC and MVP doing the smart thing tbh, NA is overun.
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On April 10 2013 19:48 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 19:45 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:43 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 19:33 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:32 playa wrote:On April 10 2013 19:29 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:27 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 19:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 19:10 budar wrote:On April 10 2013 18:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:
[quote]
Not really. I'd probably watch the finals just for the Koreans though. I am one of those rarities that likes Korean players more for both personality and skill level.
(emphasis mine) -> That's the whole point. I also don't really care where someone is from if they can play great games, but there are a lot of people who chose their favorite players based on other criteria, and that's actually perfectly fine and happens in all sports. Especially if you're cheering for your hometown/homecountry representative, it's really completely understandable and desirable. And the point that you are missing is that this is killing that. So you might get some great games in the first season (in the offline event, doubt the online part will be too hot after a few weeks of initial interest), but how long will that continue if viewership and general interest in the game declines. Just look at the LoL and DotA2 scenes... The situation in terms of skill is actually really similar to SC2. North american teams are behind EU teams who are behind Asian teams, with a handful of Stephano-like exceptions. But these scenes are completely separated except for THE big tournament where all roads lead to. The NA LCS is getting great numbers even though those teams are actually pretty weak right now. But hey, people care about them, they know these players from their stream etc. Anyway, it remains to be seen how this will turn out. I might actually watch the NA one now whereas without the Koreans I probably wouldn't have. But that's me and you and people like that. What about the "average Joe" browsing twitch and eating Hot Pockets? I still don't get how this kills the scene though... The only change is no more WCS and more money being funneled into the scene. You could argue that it doesn't advance the NA/EU scene as much as it could have, but then I would again disagree. In the region locked scenario, NA/EU would just stagnate and remain eternally inferior. Foreigners would have no incentive to reach the level to where they could beat Koreans. Was the old WCS really all that successful? I never bothered watching any of it so I don't know. Because WCS was an attempt to grow other region scene outside of korea, and this pretty much does the oppossite. Korean players won't be moving, but just playing online while mantaining their practice on their team houses and friends on korea, giving players who are not really code S (or bottom code S) the chance to just play elsewhere while staying on the same place. I don't think people would see so much troublewith koreans moving, if they were really moving. Specially if the different regions started to have some kind of hubs centralized for the teams to grow around. Did WCS succeed in growing the foreign scene? Personally, it was a big reason I played SC 2. I had never played SC 2 until well after WCS. After seeing that 64 "noobs" are being given a free plane ticket and a chance at "real money" I had to try playing. I mean, it was 100 times greater than WCG ever was. If they had this WCS format last year, I prob would have never picked up WoL. WoL was a shitty game to begin with. Now for the big question: Being that you don't like the game, consider the NA players to be noobs anyway, and just want free money... are you influential to the growth of the scene? Exactly how good are you? Like are you a pro I haven't heard of or something? You can tell foreigners they can climb a mole hill at a chance for money or you can tell them they can climb Mount Everest. If you can't figure out which one is more motivating and going to get more takers, there's nothing to be said to you that you would comprehend. The more vigor foreigners have, the more they will practice, and, in turn, the higher the more they will improve. Now which mountain climber ever got better by sticking with mole-hills? Wow, talk about taking an analogy as literally as possible. Just because something starts out looking like an easy task doesn't mean it ends up being an easy task a year or two later. When everyone starts out with a mindset of being able to achieve something, they all practice like they can do it if they want it enough. Before you know it, the scene is getting a lot better and you have to play a lot to not fall behind.
There's an ongoing regional league in Taiwan, it hasn't produced any talents who can even compete with NA players, let alone Koreans, even though they play and train on the KR server.
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Seriously, this just makes the WCS to be a huge Qualifier for any korean b-teamer. Fuck that, fuck that, fuck that.
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Holly molly, when we were theorizing about Koreans moving around for WCS, I couldn't have imagined it being on such a grand scale. A few minor Koreans playing online here and there... not like a flood of numberless great players. A bit more, and may come to the point where WCS KR is actually not that hard.
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EPT
