EPTMC goes off on WCS & Polt's Machiavellian plan - Page 13
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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TiberiusAk
United States122 Posts
Well, MC just threw down the gauntlet and made pretty much unimpeachable points. There's at least three uncertainties I can think of in MC's points. We (and I assume MC and the other Korean players), don't know exactly how the NA/EU qualifiers, the Ro16+ match schedules, and the WCS point system work. Until those are known, how would a Korean player judge when it's worth it to switch regions? Speculation ahead! Starting with what we've been told... NA/EU qualifiers The GSL's Code-A/Code-S/Up/Down format will be the base format for all the regions(1) Basically, NA and EU are each getting their own GSL. Which means MGL and ESL each have to create a Code A (40 spots) and Code S (32 spots) (3). Here is the info we have on the qualifiers: Players in North America and Europe will be invited to kick off Season 1 based upon their performances in 2012 across all leagues. Open qualifiers will also be held to determine the final player list. Additionally, the top 200 Grand Masters players on the Starcraft II Ladder will be invited to join the initial qualifiers.(2, emphasis added) Key points in that quote I see are:
Now, if you were Blizzard/MLG/ESL, would you seed Koreans directly into your NA/EU Code S for the first season? Would you force the invited foreigners to play against Koreans for those initial Code S (and possibly some Code A) spots? Open question. If only foreigners (and Polt?  ) get Code S seeds, and Code A doesn't give points, then Code B Koreans are effectively out of the main WCS season 1 everywhere, not just in Korea. That's not a total loss to a Korean currently in Code B: presumably they'd rather aim for an easy shot at 2 Code S's in NA/EU than one difficult one in KR. If you're already in Korean Code A, however, you still have a shot at being in Code S for two seasons in a row. Without the possible logistical headaches of...NA/EU Ro16+ Match Schedules In GSL it's typical to have the Ro16 through the finals played over several weeks. If NA/EU Code S copy that part of the format, then Koreans will have to fly out up to four week(end)s in a row to play. They may have to choose between staying away from their team house for up to a month, or paying for flights over and over. And unlike weekend tournaments, they only get paid on their final trip. Possibly worth it, but is it sustainable? Ideally Koreans that come to NA/EU would join (or better, start) team houses in NA/EU. Then everybody wins. The Point System We don't know how the entire point system works in the first place. They could even add a bonus for playing in your nation of citizenship's region if the incentive is needed. I hope more announcements on the above come soon! Sources (1)http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405929 (2)http://www.gamespot.com/news/blizzard-unveils-revamped-16-million-2013-starcraft-ii-tournament-season-6406325 (3)http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/index.php?title=File:GSL_Sponsorship_League_format_2011_November.jpg&filetimestamp=20111027123414 *Good luck to non-KR/EU/NA players Moonglade, Sen, et al. Hope they make it through an open bracket! **In the event that NA/EU Code A becomes filled with Koreans at the start of season 2, falling into it will be like falling bloodied into a pool of sharks for the initially seeded Code S foreigners. | ||
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Geos13
437 Posts
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Hikari
1914 Posts
Why do people want to see "white dudes" so much? Is it because they are non-asian? Is that not just down right discriminatory? Koreans are not natrually borned as elite progamers with superior genetics (unlike sports where African origins tend to have stronger muscles I believe). They are good at it because they practice hard and sacrificed a lot behind the scenes. Why should those people be penalized by being part of a more difficult group? Sure, the Koreans can participate in the NA/EU divisions, but that forces them to leave their home... it is not something suitable for everyone, or even financially possible for the not-as-well-off Korean teams. Leaving to another country especially when you struggle with the basics of the local tongue is quite a challenging task (thankfully most people here are fluent in English which can be used to limited degrees around the world, but good luck trying to find someone who knows Korean outside of Korea...). Instead of giving the "foreigners" the advantage of choosing relatively easy divisions, those who wish to see their foreign representatives represent their region should encourage them to get even better. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
And now Blizzard is throwing a lot of money in a system that 98% of the (casual) viewers will never understand. I mean there are three Code A/S and you receive some points and and and.... | ||
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Micromnky
United States262 Posts
The Koreans are complaining because they used the exsisting GSL placements as the beginning seeds for WCS KR. EU and NA are getting seeded in too...then with an open qualifyer to fill the remaining spots. Why are EU and NA getting this 'clean start'? Because EU and NA didnt have something like GSL to base their seeds off of! Im more than sure that if there was an EU and NA GSL-style tournament exsisting already, they would've integrated into WCS the same way as they did to the GSL in Korea. It's almost sad that the main thing everyone is squabbling about after the announcement of a unified world-wide tournament series is "We want the best shot at the money as possible! We think those other guys in a different region are shit, why are we stuck here!". When I bet if they didn't announce the Prize Pool amount, or if it was the same as the old WCS, no one would've given two shits. Just like no one really cared about the last WCS KR... | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:24 USvBleakill wrote: This all looks a bit weird. In my opinion the biggest strength of the sc2 eSports scene was always that the tournaments were able to run by themselves financially. Unlike Lol or Dota where Riot and Valve "created" the scene. And now Blizzard is throwing a lot of money in a system that 98% of the (casual) viewers will never understand. I mean there are three Code A/S and you receive some points and and and.... Good point. Hopefully it wil be Code KR-S, Code NA-S and Code EU-S  | ||
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waylander_
United States82 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea. Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:11 Hikari wrote: I really do not get why there is a need to "preserve" "foreigners" in WCS by artificially creating the various divisions, with the Korean one being most likely a death zone. Why do people want to see "white dudes" so much? Is it because they are non-asian? Is that not just down right discriminatory? Koreans are not natrually borned as elite progamers with superior genetics (unlike sports where African origins tend to have stronger muscles I believe). They are good at it because they practice hard and sacrificed a lot behind the scenes. Why should those people be penalized by being part of a more difficult group? Sure, the Koreans can participate in the NA/EU divisions, but that forces them to leave their home... it is not something suitable for everyone, or even financially possible for the not-as-well-off Korean teams. Leaving to another country especially when you struggle with the basics of the local tongue is quite a challenging task (thankfully most people here are fluent in English which can be used to limited degrees around the world, but good luck trying to find someone who knows Korean outside of Korea...). Instead of giving the "foreigners" the advantage of choosing relatively easy divisions, those who wish to see their foreign representatives represent their region should encourage them to get even better. This is an attempt to provide incentive for the global skill level to improve, so that players no longer have to move to Korea and train there if they want to be at the top level of competition. It's pretty ambitious, and we'll have to see if it pans out. It's up to Western players/teams to step it up and really get serious about training, though. | ||
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Micromnky
United States262 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:38 waylander_ wrote: Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans. How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:38 waylander_ wrote: Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans. From another thread; the only thing that does punish Koreans right now is that the current Code S season is taken as qualifier instead of a new start but other than that; On April 03 2013 16:33 Type|NarutO wrote: Isn't it special treatment when you can freely pick the server and pick the server you have latency with and get a workaround from Blizzard to fix it for you? If they want to play EU/NA I think they should also move. Ofcourse your point being they shouldn't leave their superior training-region, but thats a contradictory argument. If they have superior training-region and setup, they are also able to play on a higher level which would lead them into being able to qualify through the Korean qualifiers. Picking the easier way out for them, they gain advantage over the EU/NA players that don't have such chances to practice. I think if you want one advantage, you have to give up the other. | ||
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lost_artz
United States366 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:41 Micromnky wrote: How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU. He (not Mirco, the guy he's quoting) also forgot to mention the almost $1000 price tag for flying each person and the cost of establishing a new house in said countries. Which considering not every player from a given team would want to play in the same region would mean up to 3 'team houses'. On top of that you have all of the legal bullshit to manage; visa's, passports, etc. | ||
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waylander_
United States82 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:41 Micromnky wrote: How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU. Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers. Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners? Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_MLG_Winter_Championship#Bracket Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await" | ||
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MugenXBanksy
United States479 Posts
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Hikari
1914 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:40 KrazyTrumpet wrote: This is an attempt to provide incentive for the global skill level to improve, so that players no longer have to move to Korea and train there if they want to be at the top level of competition. It's pretty ambitious, and we'll have to see if it pans out. It's up to Western players/teams to step it up and really get serious about training, though. Global play already encourage that, you do not even need to get your hands onto a Kr account to practice on the Kr ladder: which is what a lot of korean progamers do. Outside of that, a strict training schedule littered with proper (but not excessive) amounts of rest and guidance offered by Korean team houses is not something the foreign scene cannot follow - by now there should be no 'secret' to the Korean's success. // I guess it depends on how people look at a "world championship". Do people want to see the best progamers in the world with sustaining results play in a championship, or do people want to see "local" delegates from each division represent and play even though they may not be the "n'th best in the world". From past results and experiences, people want to see the former (even if it is littered with Koreans plus 2-3 well known foreigners), this can be seen in various "which match do you want to see" polls in past tournaments. I am afraid the GSL might suffer the loss of potential players if they decide to take part in NA/EU WCS qualifiers over the GSL. | ||
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Micromnky
United States262 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:47 waylander_ wrote: Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers. Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners? Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_MLG_Winter_Championship#Bracket Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await" How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world? It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier. | ||
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Bayyne
United States1967 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:47 waylander_ wrote: Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers. Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners? Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_MLG_Winter_Championship#Bracket Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await" I'm with you dude. But the reality is, most of the viewers/consumers of SC2 are non-Koreans (no I don't have hard facts on that but use common sense). Whether it's discriminatory or not doesn't affect the fact that viewership increases when popular foreigners are competing. It is what it is: not fair, but necessary to avoid the situation where less and less people tune in leading to smaller $$, less opportunities, etc., etc. | ||
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waylander_
United States82 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:53 Micromnky wrote: How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world? It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier. You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world. Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:52 Hikari wrote: Global play already encourage that, you do not even need to get your hands onto a Kr account to practice on the Kr ladder: which is what a lot of korean progamers do. Outside of that, a strict training schedule littered with proper (but not excessive) amounts of rest and guidance offered by Korean team houses is not something the foreign scene cannot follow - by now there should be no 'secret' to the Korean's success. // I guess it depends on how people look at a "world championship". Do people want to see the best progamers in the world with sustaining results play in a championship, or do people want to see "local" delegates from each division represent and play even though they may not be the "n'th best in the world". From past results and experiences, people want to see the former (even if it is littered with Koreans plus 2-3 well known foreigners), this can be seen in various "which match do you want to see" polls in past tournaments. I am afraid the GSL might suffer the loss of potential players if they decide to take part in NA/EU WCS qualifiers over the GSL. Bolded important part. This has yet to happen outside of Korea. I'm hoping a big, annual, global tournament like this where Western players will regularly be going up against Koreans provides the incentive for this to finally happen. Yes, there have been team houses, but they have not been up to the training quality of the best Korean team houses (looking at KeSPA team houses here as the prime example) | ||
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Kim Hyuna
Korea (South)264 Posts
On April 04 2013 16:57 waylander_ wrote: You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world. Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals. This. Any Code A/B will thrash the hell out of any foreigners. No speaking of Korean's pride but the hard truth. | ||
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