Twitter is such a great medium for stalking people, and for people who enjoy being stalked to tell their stalkers what's on their minds. Here are some tweets from yesterday, following the Blizzard WCS announcement.
SK_MC's Rant
@SK__MC: No matter how I look at it, I can only see WCS as having disadvantageous conditions for Korean players. Players who are in the qualifiers [old Code B] cannot compete in WCS Korea at all [MC means the Code S/top 32 division].
Players who compete in the most difficult tournament, the GSL, will be picked as Korea's representatives. However, if you're not going to prevent Korean players from going to other countries [to compete in either the America or EU region], then it makes practicing in Korea for Korean tournaments itself a foolish act. Anyone would rather qualify easily from America or Europe, as opposed to a place with many strong, Korean players.
I just don't get Blizzard's plan. Either allow only players from that country to play in their region, or make a separate qualifier [and tournament] for WCS instead of turning the GSL into the WCS. For Korean players who are down in the qualifiers/Code B right now, WCS is a tournament that you really have no desire to play.
Even for me, being in Code S right now, there's a lot to think about. In that case, how big of a dillema must this be for players in Code A or the preliminaries? In conclusion, it's a tournament format I really don't like.
Just looking at LG-IM, there's Mvp, First, ByuL, Ragnarok, Seed, etc. in the preliminaries, and Nestea, Yonghwa, etc. in Code A who have automatically lost the right to compete in the first WCS Korea season. Only the 32 Code S players who were judged by their Wings of Liberty skill are Korean representatives.
To make an analogy, let's say for soccer there's the Premier league in England, the Chinese league, and Japanese league. There's a 'champions league' type tournament, and they seed the top five teams from each of the national leagues. The condition is, clubs can decide which league they want to play in, and the 2nd and 3rd vision of the Premier league can't even play in the champions league while all the JP/CN teams compete together in their league. What would top teams like Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool etc. think? What would the teams in the lower divisions of English football think? Would there be any reason for them to play in the lower divisions of England where they can't even play in the champions league, when they could get top results in the overseas leagues?
[Incomprehensible archery analogy omitted] Right now, in an esports industry where it's a problem because Korean players are dominating every tournament, it's obvious from the perspective of a foreign esports fan to want to see players their country doing well. If Korean players go to WCS EU and WCS NA and dominate there as well, I wonder what kind of Amerian or European fan would want to watch the WCS finals.
Teammates respond: @LGIMSeed: Because I'm in the preliminaries, I've forcefully had pain inflicted. @IM_RagnaroK: T_T so painful
Worshipers gather at the church of Polt
@TSLRam I can hear the sound of Polt shoveling all the way from here. @CMStormPolt: I can hear the sound of people packing and moving to America all the way from here... @TSLRam: Lol, because of restrictions, most of the guys saying they'll go probably won't be able to? LOL @Quantic_Center: Ah... Hyung.... Looks like you're going to sweep everything up. @AzubuSymbol: Whew... really a god-like move. You can see the future... @QuanticHyuN: So f***ing amazing, 'that person's' decision making... whew... @CMStormPolt: Center, you come to America too! lololol @IM_Ragnarok: T_T I'm ruined, so I'll just study for the college extrance exams.
@LiquidTaeJa: I should go to the US or Europe! @AxMiya: Then I shall remain in Korea. @purerakuen: Is this the start of deep mind-games between proagmers? @LiquidTaeJa: Lololol, yes, this is the beginning. @purerakuen: Polt says don't come to the US. @LiquidTaeJa: Huk! Then I'll go to Europe. @FXOLeenock: Is this the godly play from the Seoul National University student?
Pro-gamers being emo.
@EGJYP: So should I just go to the USA?~~~
@ST_Golden: Lot to think about...
@Liquid_HerO: Has the time come to leave???
EGOzRC: Hmm... do I have to go the USA?
Pro-gamers not being emo.
@ApolloSC2: My opinion: Why do EU/NA players ever care to play in Korea anymore? @HelloSaSe: because some players wanna be as good as possible instead of making money. If I cared much about money I would ALWAYS be in EU^^
NaNiwaSC2: @MLGSundance if u were really gonna help them then you would make them actually MOVE to usa all the time, instead of online + lan... I mean for NA ofcourse guys.. i will still try to practice in KR and win . i dont give a shit who i have to play
I remember on Lo3 that Incontrol was saying how he wanted to smack everyone that didn't agree this was a good thing. I really want to see incontrol hit MC.
On April 04 2013 11:39 TommyP wrote: I remember on Lo3 that Incontrol was saying how he wanted to smack everyone that didn't agree this was a good thing. I really want to see incontrol hit MC.
Because you should hit everyone who doesn't share the same opinions as you're own. That's classy.
On April 04 2013 11:39 TommyP wrote: I remember on Lo3 that Incontrol was saying how he wanted to smack everyone that didn't agree this was a good thing. I really want to see incontrol hit MC.
Because you should hit everyone who doesn't share the same opinions as you're own. That's classy.
come on, we all WISH we could. That's why I want to have my brain transplanted into a giant robot exo-skeleton
It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
Haha I love banter the guys are having with Polt. Polt gonna dominate NA so hard. Leenock" Is this the godly play of a Seoul National University student?" I died laughing.
On April 04 2013 11:39 TommyP wrote: I remember on Lo3 that Incontrol was saying how he wanted to smack everyone that didn't agree this was a good thing. I really want to see incontrol hit MC.
Because you should hit everyone who doesn't share the same opinions as you're own. That's classy.
come on, we all WISH we could. That's why I want to have my brain transplanted into a giant robot exo-skeleton
As long as it still has your wavy long hair by all means. Needs to be styling and profiling.
It does suck for Koreans a great deal, but atleast they aren't missing out on anymore money than before. Players in Code A will still get money from participating in Code A, they just miss out on the chance for additional money that wasn't there before. This extra money should be seen as an incentive for players to try harder than ever to improve their play.
On April 04 2013 11:39 TommyP wrote: I remember on Lo3 that Incontrol was saying how he wanted to smack everyone that didn't agree this was a good thing. I really want to see incontrol hit MC.
Because you should hit everyone who doesn't share the same opinions as you're own. That's classy.
Don't act like an MC vs Incontrol smackdown wouldn't be fun.
Maybe Polt leaving TSL for America was for the better, regardless of whether he knew this was happening or not. All the events just worked out perfectly in his favor. Maybe Polt really is a fortune teller?
It would be funny if a Korean team relocated to NA or EU and dominated that WCS instead, assuming they all have equal prize pools it might be a worthy venture.
On April 04 2013 11:44 Erik.TheRed wrote: So awesome to see SaSe & Nani fighting the good fight.
It makes absolutely no sense at all to stay in Korea if you're a foreigner. If rotting in Code B for the next 12 months if the 'good fight' to you then that's fine and I'm not a fan of either player but their decision is absurd.
You know, some good points are brought up. If Koreans cannot practically even compete in WCS in Korea, why would they not go to NA or EU? This may not be good for NA/EU players, if Koreans choose to compete in these instead of risking everything on some qualifiers.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
It punishes the Korean scene for being good while rewarding Americans who are pretty terrible in comparison with 5 slots out of a 16 slot tournament. A bit silly.
On April 04 2013 11:39 TommyP wrote: I remember on Lo3 that Incontrol was saying how he wanted to smack everyone that didn't agree this was a good thing. I really want to see incontrol hit MC.
MC tackled that guy who stole his wallet ^_^
Loved Naniwa's comments along with the Korean pros. There is a lot going on here, I just want to be able to see my favorite Koreans compete in Korea. There's no greater battle ground then the holy land of Starcraft.
On April 04 2013 11:44 Erik.TheRed wrote: So awesome to see SaSe & Nani fighting the good fight.
It makes absolutely no sense at all to stay in Korea if you're a foreigner. If rotting in Code B for the next 12 months if the 'good fight' to you then that's fine and I'm not a fan of either player but their decision is absurd.
I see no problem with it. At the end of the day they want to become a better gamer and competing in the hardest market most certainly helps. It's their decision you don't have to agree with it, but if they feel like they can compete I say let them. More power to them!
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
They have fewer tournaments than they did last year because of this change.
Last year they had 5 seasons of GSL, 1 OSL, and 1 WCS. Now they have 3 seasons of GSL and 1 OSL.
On April 04 2013 11:49 rename wrote: what did MC expect ... play three leagues in the same day teleporting from Korea to europe to US in a day ... jeez
His main complaint if you'd actually care to read the translation is that player are 'locked' into Korea by being in Code A/B this season (on the back of WOL play) even though they have no chance to win points and make the regional finals and weren't told in advance and given the option to drop out of Code A/B and play in NA/EU where they would have been able to win points or a spot in the regionals from the start.
For players in Code A/B then a third of the season is basically forfeit on the back of WOL play and with them not being given the option to play in another region.
So basically he's complaining that since the best players are Korean, he's upset that the world's SC2 tournaments aren't structured so that Koreans can come in at their convenience and win.
I don't see why WCS has to suddenly dominate a progamer's career path. It's basically just another tournament on top of the many that already exist. They can still treat preliminaries/Code A/Code S as they did before. And they can go to foreign tournaments. They just probably won't play in the WCS finals.
It sucks for Koreans because their main tournament got turned into a WCS event and they were forced into it. The other regions just get another tournament on top of their already existing ones. GSL is more exciting than WCS. Sucks that it's just become a qualifier for a lesser event.
On April 04 2013 11:54 Jerubaal wrote: So basically he's complaining that since the best players are Korean, he's upset that the world's SC2 tournaments aren't structured so that Koreans can come in at their convenience and win.
That is not what he is saying. Wow, people cannot read these days.
On April 04 2013 11:49 rename wrote: what did MC expect ... play three leagues in the same day teleporting from Korea to europe to US in a day ... jeez
His main complaint if you'd actually care to read the translation is that player are 'locked' into Korea by being in Code A/B this season (on the back of WOL play) even though they have no chance to win points and make the regional finals and weren't told in advance and given the option to drop out of Code A/B and play in NA/EU where they would have been able to win points or a spot in the regionals from the start.
For players in Code A/B then a third of the season is basically forfeit on the back of WOL play and with them not being given the option to play in another region.
Alright, that is a legitimate concern i was not aware of - everybody just seem to be jumping on the general idea of having three regions to choose from.
On April 04 2013 11:44 Erik.TheRed wrote: So awesome to see SaSe & Nani fighting the good fight.
It makes absolutely no sense at all to stay in Korea if you're a foreigner. If rotting in Code B for the next 12 months if the 'good fight' to you then that's fine and I'm not a fan of either player but their decision is absurd.
I see no problem with it. At the end of the day they want to become a better gamer and competing in the hardest market most certainly helps. It's their decision you don't have to agree with it, but if they feel like they can compete I say let them. More power to them!
You also become a better gamer by experiencing winning tournaments, if anything the art of actually winning on the big stage is as important as actual in game skill.
Just look at players like Mvp or MC. They haven't been the most skilled at their race in terms of mechanics for a long time imo but they know what it takes to win high pressure Bo5/Bo7's when huge amounts of money are on the line.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
I definitely think that WCS using GSL as their regional is quite silly. It obviously should have been a separate tournament like MLG will have. The regional tournaments should be open to anyone who wants to participate in them, not through some long qualifier. GSL may be known for how competitive and difficult it is, but it never has been the best representation of skill. I imagine there are plenty of "Code B" players (particularly some Kespa players) who could knock out Code A/S players if there was a totally open WCS tournament.
Anyway, they should just make a separate tournament in Korea that ISN'T GSL.
@Doodsmack
You must not care much for equality or fairness. If someone makes a new $2000000000000 tournament and everyone except for you was invited, would you be upset? It's true that many players do not care about the money, and only the prestige (GSL was a good example). But, since GSL is PART of an even larger tournament, then wouldn't it only make sense that the larger tournament was more prestigious? And obviously, larger prize pool is significant...
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
It punishes the Korean scene for being good while rewarding Americans who are pretty terrible in comparison with 5 slots out of a 16 slot tournament. A bit silly.
Now we are seeing people who's in it to get the easiest way to get the money (who doesn't?) and the people who really wants to be the very best (money being the bonus).
Blizzard is like "Here's the money, here's the system, now bring me the best damn player in the planet!"
Some (or most) players are like "Oh shit, I'm f*cked in this place, time to bolt and cash-in somewhere!" or "Oh no, there will never be no more chance for me to win this...QQ"
Where will we ever hear "F*ck it, I'm gonna ladder like crazy and beat the sh*t all of you and take home my moolah!"? (oh the ideal world!)
On April 04 2013 11:54 Jerubaal wrote: So basically he's complaining that since the best players are Korean, he's upset that the world's SC2 tournaments aren't structured so that Koreans can come in at their convenience and win.
What? Did you even read the post? READ THE LAST PARAGRAPH. He clearly states that this decision hurts the foreign viewers and competitors just as much as it hurts the KR players. The structure makes no sense for any of the parties involved and really leaves more people disliking it than actually enjoying the new format.
On April 04 2013 11:54 Jerubaal wrote: So basically he's complaining that since the best players are Korean, he's upset that the world's SC2 tournaments aren't structured so that Koreans can come in at their convenience and win.
A lot of you seem to be missing what he said. I would re-read the part about Code B/A gamers not having a shot to compete in the KR WCS because only Code S players qualify. In other words, it isn't a level playing field from the get go.
On April 04 2013 11:49 rename wrote: what did MC expect ... play three leagues in the same day teleporting from Korea to europe to US in a day ... jeez
His main complaint if you'd actually care to read the translation is that player are 'locked' into Korea by being in Code A/B this season (on the back of WOL play) even though they have no chance to win points and make the regional finals and weren't told in advance and given the option to drop out of Code A/B and play in NA/EU where they would have been able to win points or a spot in the regionals from the start.
For players in Code A/B then a third of the season is basically forfeit on the back of WOL play and with them not being given the option to play in another region.
Ahh, now I understand the problem with the GSL/WCS.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
On April 04 2013 11:55 Doodsmack wrote: I don't see why WCS has to suddenly dominate a progamer's career path. It's basically just another tournament on top of the many that already exist. They can still treat preliminaries/Code A/Code S as they did before. And they can go to foreign tournaments. They just probably won't play in the WCS finals.
Because $1.6m is a lot of money, IPL, GSL and OSL don't exist anymore and HSC, Dreamhack and IEM don't pay out decent prize money unless you win and even then it's kind of low.
The only place to earn decent prize money now outside of WCS is NASL and MLG and the future of NASL is pretty unclear at this point.
So yeah WCS is kind of a big deal, it's basically all that really matters now.
the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Let's face it. The system is basically flawed for the Koreans. What can Korean players that aren't top code S players do other than move permanently to the Europe or US. There is nothing in Korea for them the same as foreigners now So why even bother playing and getting nowhere. I fear this will drive them to other games.
On April 04 2013 11:54 Jerubaal wrote: So basically he's complaining that since the best players are Korean, he's upset that the world's SC2 tournaments aren't structured so that Koreans can come in at their convenience and win.
A lot of you seem to be missing what he said. I would re-read the part about Code B/A gamers not having a shot to compete in the KR WCS because only Code S players qualify. In other words, it isn't a level playing field from the get go.
Indeed. I thought Wax posted a pretty clear translation, but I suppose people's attention spans are too short or something, yeesh MC brings up a pretty good issue with this for sure.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Everything that makes the tournament GSL is still there. The only difference is that there's less events, but that can be attributed to amount of prize money that's available the fact that there's no overlapping between GSL and OSL. It doesn't matter what we call it. GSL is GSL.
On April 04 2013 12:02 Beau_Monde wrote: Let's face it. The system is basically flawed for the Koreans. What can Korean players that aren't top code S players do other than move permanently to the Europe or US. There is nothing in Korea for them the same as foreigners now So why even bother playing and getting nowhere. I fear this will drive them to other games.
They don't have to move permanently, they just need to show up at the event for the weekend, like they had been doing for the last 2 years.
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
On April 04 2013 11:54 Jerubaal wrote: So basically he's complaining that since the best players are Korean, he's upset that the world's SC2 tournaments aren't structured so that Koreans can come in at their convenience and win.
A lot of you seem to be missing what he said. I would re-read the part about Code B/A gamers not having a shot to compete in the KR WCS because only Code S players qualify. In other words, it isn't a level playing field from the get go.
Indeed. I thought Wax posted a pretty clear translation, but I suppose people's attention spans are too short or something, yeesh MC brings up a pretty good issue with this for sure.
People are lucky to read beyond the title of a thread before they want to reply to it.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a post which reads: "MC is just sore that his 2-base doesn't work on Polt's sick TvP"
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Everything that makes the tournament GSL is still there. The only difference is that there's less events, but that can be attributed to amount of prize money that's available.
Except last year they had WCS, OSL and GSL. Now they just have WCS, there's clearly a reduction in prize money/opportunities to win tournaments for Koreans.
MC has a point. Isn't the objective of WCS to get the best of the best from every continent? Showcase the best from NA, best from EU, then just reinforce in the end that the best of KR are still total ballers superior to all foreigners? :D
I just don't get Blizzard's plan. Either allow only players from that country to play in their region, or make a separate qualifier [and tournament] for WCS instead of turning the GSL into the WCS. For Korean players who are down in the qualifiers/Code B right now, WCS is a tournament that you really have no desire to play.
Even for me, being in Code S right now, there's a lot to think about. In that case, how big of a dillema must this be for players in Code A or the preliminaries? In conclusion, it's a tournament format I really don't like.
Just looking at LG-IM, there's Mvp, First, ByuL, Ragnarok, Seed, etc. in the preliminaries, and Nestea, Yonghwa, etc. in Code A who have automatically lost the right to compete in the first WCS Korea season. Only the 32 Code S players who were judged by their Wings of Liberty skill are Korean representatives.
On April 04 2013 11:39 TommyP wrote: I remember on Lo3 that Incontrol was saying how he wanted to smack everyone that didn't agree this was a good thing. I really want to see incontrol hit MC.
Because you should hit everyone who doesn't share the same opinions as you're own. That's classy.
come on, we all WISH we could. That's why I want to have my brain transplanted into a giant robot exo-skeleton
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Everything that makes the tournament GSL is still there. The only difference is that there's less events, but that can be attributed to amount of prize money that's available.
Except last year they had WCS, OSL and GSL. Now they just have WCS, there's clearly a reduction in prize money/opportunities to win tournaments for Koreans.
We don't even know what the distribution in prize money is yet. It has nothing to do with it being unfair to Koreans. It's a change in formats. Koreans shouldn't be entitled to X amount of events every year. Who can say that if Blizzard didn't implement this change, that GSL wouldn't reduce the amount of events per year?
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Everything that makes the tournament GSL is still there. The only difference is that there's less events, but that can be attributed to amount of prize money that's available.
Except last year they had WCS, OSL and GSL. Now they just have WCS, there's clearly a reduction in prize money/opportunities to win tournaments for Koreans.
We don't even know what the distribution in prize money is yet. It has nothing to do with it being unfair to Koreans. It's a change in formats. Koreans shouldn't be entitled to X amount of events every year. Who can say that if Blizzard didn't implement this change, that GSL wouldn't reduce the amount of events per year?
Because they already had their entire schedule planned. Their plan was to do 4 events this year + WCS Korea with most likely another Blizzard cup at the end. Now the year will be 1 GSL and 2 WCS Koreas from gom. With 1 more WCS Korea from OSL.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
So last season Koreans had 5 GSL's, 1 OSL, WCS Korea and WCS Asia.
That's 8 domestic tournaments with good prize pools and prestige.
This season they have 3.
Do you see now why Koreans have been a bit shafted by this?
On April 04 2013 12:00 larse wrote: MC got the whole thing wrong.
He can still go to all the old tournaments he likes. MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, NASL. He can still do all these just like the old days.
They won't receive any qualifier points from those. If they lock their region as Korea. They can only gain points from team leagues (which I'm strongly opposed to) and GSL Code S breakdown. In other words, for this upcoming WCS you have to be in Code S. That means a lot of legitimate Koreans don't have the same equal opportunity as the players in Europe/NA start with a clean slate. It's a long process if you try to qualify through Korea whereas EU and NA regions have it much easier with the format and structure. It's less work and definitely less skill outside of KR. If Koreans decide to travel they have more restrictions based on scheduling. If they decide to compete/move to other regions it's going to be much harder for them to retain their skill.
On April 04 2013 11:44 Erik.TheRed wrote: So awesome to see SaSe & Nani fighting the good fight.
It makes absolutely no sense at all to stay in Korea if you're a foreigner. If rotting in Code B for the next 12 months if the 'good fight' to you then that's fine and I'm not a fan of either player but their decision is absurd.
I see no problem with it. At the end of the day they want to become a better gamer and competing in the hardest market most certainly helps. It's their decision you don't have to agree with it, but if they feel like they can compete I say let them. More power to them!
You also become a better gamer by experiencing winning tournaments, if anything the art of actually winning on the big stage is as important as actual in game skill.
Just look at players like Mvp or MC. They haven't been the most skilled at their race in terms of mechanics for a long time imo but they know what it takes to win high pressure Bo5/Bo7's when huge amounts of money are on the line.
Sase won enough in Wc3. and Naniwa in SC2. and they both played enough on the big stage so i think they should be fine.
i don't see your problem. they just want to become the best players. they are the anti Stephano. who doesn' t give a shit how good he is and just wants money.
well guess what koreans? life isnt fair. look at the NA scene. Our tournaments are dominated by Koreans who get their way there paid for by the leagues. One of our major leagues just folded. The most recent MLG had more Koreans than NA players. The North American Star League is 45 players from all around the world. And now our WCS event may very well be filled with Koreans. Yet all that is said is, get better!
And its funny because more money in esports comes from North America than anywhere else, especially now that Blizzard is even more involved. Same for viewership.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
So last season Koreans had 5 GSL's, 1 OSL, WCS Korea and WCS Asia.
That's 8 domestic tournaments with good prize pools and prestige.
This season they have 3.
Do you see now why Koreans have been a bit shafted by this?
they are whining because blizzard is ganna pay over 1millions in prize money more than the previous 2 years combine? and all those prize money will surely go to the koreans' pockets? No man, they should be laughing their asses off, Ez money!
On April 04 2013 11:44 Erik.TheRed wrote: So awesome to see SaSe & Nani fighting the good fight.
It makes absolutely no sense at all to stay in Korea if you're a foreigner. If rotting in Code B for the next 12 months if the 'good fight' to you then that's fine and I'm not a fan of either player but their decision is absurd.
I see no problem with it. At the end of the day they want to become a better gamer and competing in the hardest market most certainly helps. It's their decision you don't have to agree with it, but if they feel like they can compete I say let them. More power to them!
You also become a better gamer by experiencing winning tournaments, if anything the art of actually winning on the big stage is as important as actual in game skill.
Just look at players like Mvp or MC. They haven't been the most skilled at their race in terms of mechanics for a long time imo but they know what it takes to win high pressure Bo5/Bo7's when huge amounts of money are on the line.
Sase won enough in Wc3. and Naniwa in SC2. and they both played enough on the big stage so i think they should be fine.
i don't see your problem. they just want to become the best players. they are the anti Stephano. who doesn' t give a shit how good he is and just wants money.
Sase won major tournaments in WC3? Naniwa's only won one major tournament and it was basically just bashing on NA players not to mention it was two years ago.
On April 04 2013 11:55 Doodsmack wrote: I don't see why WCS has to suddenly dominate a progamer's career path. It's basically just another tournament on top of the many that already exist. They can still treat preliminaries/Code A/Code S as they did before. And they can go to foreign tournaments. They just probably won't play in the WCS finals.
Because $1.6m is a lot of money, IPL, GSL and OSL don't exist anymore and HSC, Dreamhack and IEM don't pay out decent prize money unless you win and even then it's kind of low.
The only place to earn decent prize money now outside of WCS is NASL and MLG and the future of NASL is pretty unclear at this point.
So yeah WCS is kind of a big deal, it's basically all that really matters now.
not really. its pretty much the same as last year minus IPL, which has nothing to do with WCS. GSL was always most important to Koreans, now just exchange that for WCS. GSL and OSL don't exist in the way they did last year, but its not like they folded like IPL, they are just WCS now.
On April 04 2013 12:13 ffadicted wrote: The incentive NEEDS to be more money and points in korea. They simply cannot split the rewards evenly, anything close to even would be a travesty
No they don't need to, because the koreans will be dominating all the foreigner events like they usually do, all the points from NA and EU are going to go to the koreans, MLG will fly them over every event for sure.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:09 rei wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
So last season Koreans had 5 GSL's, 1 OSL, WCS Korea and WCS Asia.
That's 8 domestic tournaments with good prize pools and prestige.
This season they have 3.
Do you see now why Koreans have been a bit shafted by this?
they are whining because blizzard is ganna pay over 1millions in prize money more than the previous 2 years combine? and all those prize money will surely go to the koreans' pockets? No man, they should be laughing their asses off, Ez money!
There's no way in hell the prize money for Koreans will add up to as much as the 5 GSLs, Blizzard cup, WCS Korea, OSL, WCS Asia, and WCS World from last year. The 1.6mil is global prize pool. I guess if 1/3 of the koreans go to each of the regions they might win it all but I doubt that will happen.
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
WCS is paying out much more money this year. that can't be ignored.
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
WCS is paying out much more money this year. that can't be ignored.
That's because they are counting the money that GSL and OSL are paying as WCS Prize money...
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:09 rei wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
So last season Koreans had 5 GSL's, 1 OSL, WCS Korea and WCS Asia.
That's 8 domestic tournaments with good prize pools and prestige.
This season they have 3.
Do you see now why Koreans have been a bit shafted by this?
they are whining because blizzard is ganna pay over 1millions in prize money more than the previous 2 years combine? and all those prize money will surely go to the koreans' pockets? No man, they should be laughing their asses off, Ez money!
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
WCS is paying out much more money this year. that can't be ignored.
The combined prize pool of all 5 GSL's, Blizzard Cup and OSL last year was about $1m, plus they had the WCS money on top of that.
It's really not a prize bump for Koreans at all, it's a prize bump for foreigners but not Koreans.
That is unless GSL/OSL are still paying out their usual prize money and the Blizzard $1.6m is purely for Regional/Global finals, but that's not how I saw it from the press release.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:09 rei wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
So last season Koreans had 5 GSL's, 1 OSL, WCS Korea and WCS Asia.
That's 8 domestic tournaments with good prize pools and prestige.
This season they have 3.
Do you see now why Koreans have been a bit shafted by this?
they are whining because blizzard is ganna pay over 1millions in prize money more than the previous 2 years combine? and all those prize money will surely go to the koreans' pockets? No man, they should be laughing their asses off, Ez money!
There's no way in hell the prize money for Koreans will add up to as much as the 5 GSLs, Blizzard cup, WCS Korea, OSL, WCS Asia, and WCS World from last year. The 1.6mil is global prize pool. I guess if 1/3 of the koreans go to each of the regions they might win it all but I doubt that will happen.
and that global prize pool will go to the koreans, there is no way any foreigner is ganna beat a korean for even 10% of that prize pool.
On April 04 2013 12:00 larse wrote: MC got the whole thing wrong.
He can still go to all the old tournaments he likes. MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, NASL. He can still do all these just like the old days.
They won't receive any qualifier points from those. If they lock their region as Korea. They can only gain points from team leagues (which I'm strongly opposed to) and GSL Code S breakdown. In other words, for this upcoming WCS you have to be in Code S. That means a lot of legitimate Koreans don't have the same equal opportunity as the players in Europe/NA start with a clean slate. It's a long process if you try to qualify through Korea whereas EU and NA regions have it much easier with the format and structure. It's less work and definitely less skill outside of KR. If Koreans decide to travel they have more restrictions based on scheduling. If they decide to compete/move to other regions it's going to be much harder for them to retain their skill.
How can you say they won't win points for those? the MLG events Koreans will play in wont be the WCS events. And I'd imagine like DH, those MLGs will have WCS points.
Nothing can be said for sure until the point system is revealed.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
So last season Koreans had 5 GSL's, 1 OSL, WCS Korea and WCS Asia.
That's 8 domestic tournaments with good prize pools and prestige.
This season they have 3.
Do you see now why Koreans have been a bit shafted by this?
I can see why people would think it's unfair. But the Blizzard mindset is that the prize money is still there. You just have to work harder for it.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:09 rei wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
So last season Koreans had 5 GSL's, 1 OSL, WCS Korea and WCS Asia.
That's 8 domestic tournaments with good prize pools and prestige.
This season they have 3.
Do you see now why Koreans have been a bit shafted by this?
they are whining because blizzard is ganna pay over 1millions in prize money more than the previous 2 years combine? and all those prize money will surely go to the koreans' pockets? No man, they should be laughing their asses off, Ez money!
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
WCS is paying out much more money this year. that can't be ignored.
The combined prize pool of all 5 GSL's, Blizzard Cup and OSL last year was about $1m, plus they had the WCS money on top of that.
It's really not a prize bump for Koreans at all, it's a prize bump for foreigners but not Koreans.
no, you shouldn't say prize bump for foreigners, you can say prize bump for foreigner events so the koreans will have a ez pay day.
I don't mind having Koreans win each region as long as they have to live there and most likely practice on that server, then you will (hopefully) get an overall increase of skill + it limits how many Koreans will actually be able to do that,
Thank you for the translations, nice to read them not thro google translate ^_^
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
It punishes the Korean scene for being good while rewarding Americans who are pretty terrible in comparison with 5 slots out of a 16 slot tournament. A bit silly.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
They have fewer tournaments than they did last year because of this change.
Last year they had 5 seasons of GSL, 1 OSL, and 1 WCS. Now they have 3 seasons of GSL and 1 OSL.
Agreed. The main problem is most non-KeSPA Koreans do not even make salary.
So that means their sole source of income is tournaments.
Back in BW, when there was MSL, OSL, and (for a while, the GOMTV Classic) and there wasn't as many pro gamers back then either.
Now in SC2, there's just 3 seasons of GSL and 1 season of OSL?
There is larger amount of Koreans who invested time into being a progamer compared to NA and EU (the teams in South Korea are huge and there are not just the players you see, but the B-teamers too which practice a ton too).
I can definitely see why Koreans are upset and it's understandable (again, you have to remember a lot make money based on tournaments alone and not salary - and also again, there are less tournaments in Korea this year than the previous year).
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:09 rei wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
So last season Koreans had 5 GSL's, 1 OSL, WCS Korea and WCS Asia.
That's 8 domestic tournaments with good prize pools and prestige.
This season they have 3.
Do you see now why Koreans have been a bit shafted by this?
I can see why people would think it's unfair. But the Blizzard mindset is that the prize money is still there. You just have to work harder for it.
This is an issue of supply (of jobs) and demand.
The supply isn't there. It doesn't matter how hard a Korean works, because there will always be a percentage of players that probably won't be able to earn money.
For example, if only the top 1 player could win money (out of 100 total players), then it doesn't matter how hard all the 100 players work to get that top place because 99 of them will always get no pay (due to the fact that there is only enough reward is only for 1 player).
Of course, this is an issue with StarCraft 2 and South Korea mainly (SC2 isn't as big in South Korea anymore).
Before, Koreans had more freedom to do foreign tournaments which increased the potential for them to get prize money. Now, most of it is just Korean tournaments only.
Edit - I'm not saying the region lock thing is bad or anything. I definitely think it has potential to better the SC2 scene as a whole.
However, what I am saying in this post is that it is completely understandable for Koreans to complain about this. Remember that a lot of them invested time into become a progamer already. Then when you find out you have much less tournaments in your home country and you also have less of an option to compete in foreign events, it kind of sucks considering how much the player may have invested into becoming an SC2 progamer.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:09 rei wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
So last season Koreans had 5 GSL's, 1 OSL, WCS Korea and WCS Asia.
That's 8 domestic tournaments with good prize pools and prestige.
This season they have 3.
Do you see now why Koreans have been a bit shafted by this?
they are whining because blizzard is ganna pay over 1millions in prize money more than the previous 2 years combine? and all those prize money will surely go to the koreans' pockets? No man, they should be laughing their asses off, Ez money!
On April 04 2013 12:18 jmbthirteen wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
WCS is paying out much more money this year. that can't be ignored.
The combined prize pool of all 5 GSL's, Blizzard Cup and OSL last year was about $1m, plus they had the WCS money on top of that.
It's really not a prize bump for Koreans at all, it's a prize bump for foreigners but not Koreans.
no, you shouldn't say prize bump for foreigners, you can say prize bump for foreigner events so the koreans will have a ez pay day.
The NA/EU tournaments will still be paying out good prize money, considerably more than they had in 2012.
On April 04 2013 12:23 Laryleprakon wrote: I don't mind having Koreans win each region as long as they have to live there and most likely practice on that server, then you will (hopefully) get an overall increase of skill + it limits how many Koreans will actually be able to do that,
Thank you for the translations, nice to read them not thro google translate ^_^
What you said there is an illusion of choice, it's not a choice for them at all if you put limitation like that, it's like saying to a 4 year old kid that you can walk into the bar and drink beer but you will need to be this tall first. What's likely going to happen is that all the ppl in code S will stick around, and ppl from code A will win all the foreigner events, and all the code B koreans will be playing the code A matches
On April 04 2013 11:47 Dodgin wrote: It would be funny if a Korean team relocated to NA or EU and dominated that WCS instead, assuming they all have equal prize pools it might be a worthy venture.
I've seen alot of people assuming equal prize pools, but Blizzard hasn't actually said anything about it, so it's possible that the Korean WCS prize pool might be larger (I could definitely see OGN or GOM insisting on that to maintain the highest level of competition).
On April 04 2013 11:54 Jerubaal wrote: So basically he's complaining that since the best players are Korean, he's upset that the world's SC2 tournaments aren't structured so that Koreans can come in at their convenience and win.
That is not what he is saying. Wow, people cannot read these days.
For all the 'OMG can't you read WHARRGGLBBBLL' nobody said anything that contradicted me. If you take the words 'Korea(n)' and 'GSL/WCS' and replace them with any other tournament/nationality nobody would give a damn. I'm sorry you can't compete in every tournament in optimal fashion, MC, deal with it, brohan.
And you think that suggesting a rule change that would benefit him proves the validity of his point? I guess we should send out a memo to all the tournaments that have separate qualifiers without region locks that they're doing it wrong.
On April 04 2013 11:42 gyad wrote: It's not like the Koreans HAVE to come to the west. They're just butthurt that they can't win free money in the WCS events. They can still have to the non-WCS events if they want. And even if they wanted to, most of them probably didn't have the money to come anyway. If Blizzard never announced this WCS stuff, 95% of the Koreans would still be playing in Korean tournaments anyway. They're just butthurt that can't play in our tournaments on a whim.
You have very poor reading comprehension. The thing they don't like is that GSL no longer exists.
GSL still exists.
No. It is WCS Korea now.
Call it what you want. It's still GSL with global points that lead somewhere.
On April 04 2013 12:09 rei wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
you forgot OSL still will go on, but what i'm pointing out is the certain instead of uncertain, we will still have koreans dominating all foreign events, nothing has change from that, and now there will be even more money involve for them if they win. I don't hear anything about 1.6mil being thrown around till blizzard came along.
So last season Koreans had 5 GSL's, 1 OSL, WCS Korea and WCS Asia.
That's 8 domestic tournaments with good prize pools and prestige.
This season they have 3.
Do you see now why Koreans have been a bit shafted by this?
they are whining because blizzard is ganna pay over 1millions in prize money more than the previous 2 years combine? and all those prize money will surely go to the koreans' pockets? No man, they should be laughing their asses off, Ez money!
On April 04 2013 12:18 jmbthirteen wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:
On April 04 2013 12:01 rei wrote: the koreans don't have to move to usa or europe, they just need to show up a MLG / ESL events for the week end like they had been doing. At the end of the year, it will be the koreans who wins every single tournament in North America and Europe and Korea, nothing will change.
Yeah but IEM and Dreamhack don't really pay out decent prize pool.
Look at it this way in 2012 Koreans had the following tournaments paying out good money to Korean players:
MLG, WCS, IPL, GSL, OSL, NASL.
In 2013 they have.
MLG, WCS. There's also NASL but I think their long term future in Sc2 is uncertain with these announcements.
WCS is paying out much more money this year. that can't be ignored.
The combined prize pool of all 5 GSL's, Blizzard Cup and OSL last year was about $1m, plus they had the WCS money on top of that.
It's really not a prize bump for Koreans at all, it's a prize bump for foreigners but not Koreans.
no, you shouldn't say prize bump for foreigners, you can say prize bump for foreigner events so the koreans will have a ez pay day.
The NA/EU tournaments will still be paying out good prize money, considerably more than they had in 2012.
ya, and the koreans will therefore, win considerably more than they had in 2012
On April 04 2013 12:23 Laryleprakon wrote: I don't mind having Koreans win each region as long as they have to live there and most likely practice on that server, then you will (hopefully) get an overall increase of skill + it limits how many Koreans will actually be able to do that,
Thank you for the translations, nice to read them not thro google translate ^_^
What you said there is an illusion of choice, it's not a choice for them at all if you put limitation like that, it's like saying to a 4 year old kid that you can walk into the bar and drink beer but you will need to be this tall first. What's likely going to happen is that all the ppl in code S will stick around, and ppl from code A will win all the foreigner events, and all the code B koreans will be playing the code A matches
Blizzard would just step in and stop that anyway if it happened, which it won't.
What MC said is true. WCS KR using GSL top 32 Code S as qualifier for WCS main event is an no go.
Meaning those potential that have chance to win the whole WCS (e.g. Code A YongHwa. Ryung, HerO. Nestea, aLive, ByuN etc) will NOT be able to even qualify for it.
Moving away from KR scene by joining EU/NA team would gave them an easier chance to qualify for WCS main event since korean's has been dominating EU/NA events. This is the worst case making Korean's programers to leave their home ground for a EU/NA teams. (e.g. Polt would swipe them whole NA qualifier).
And Top 32 GSL Code S korean representatives are based on WoL skill and not HOTS. There are better HOTS skilled players that might even better than those in the current pool of Top 32.
ByuN is an good example. Look how he all-killed during GSTL. Basically giving him zero chance to participate in WCS.
On April 04 2013 11:54 Jerubaal wrote: So basically he's complaining that since the best players are Korean, he's upset that the world's SC2 tournaments aren't structured so that Koreans can come in at their convenience and win.
That is not what he is saying. Wow, people cannot read these days.
For all the 'OMG can't you read WHARRGGLBBBLL' nobody said anything that contradicted me. If you take the words 'Korea(n)' and 'GSL/WCS' and replace them with any other tournament/nationality nobody would give a damn. I'm sorry you can't compete in every tournament in optimal fashion, MC, deal with it, brohan.
And you think that suggesting a rule change that would benefit him proves the validity of his point? I guess we should send out a memo to all the tournaments that have separate qualifiers without region locks that they're doing it wrong.
Eh you really need to read MC's opinion again man especially the end part because it seemed like you missed that
He complained about the structure which would result in Koreans going overseas and taking over WCS NA and EU. He is worried that will kill interest of NA and EU fans even more.
Right now, in an esports industry where it's a problem because Korean players are dominating every tournament, it's obvious from the perspective of a foreign esports fan to want to see players their country doing well. If Korean players go to WCS EU and WCS NA and dominate there as well, I wonder what kind of Amerian or European fan would want to watch the WCS finals
The supply isn't there. It doesn't matter how hard a Korean works, because there will always be a percentage of players that probably won't be able to earn money.
For example, if only the top 1 player won money (out of 100 total players), then it doesn't matter how hard all the 100 players work to get that top place because 99 of them will always get no pay.
Of course, this is an issue with StarCraft 2 and South Korea mainly (SC2 isn't as big in South Korea anymore).
Before, Koreans had more freedom to do foreign tournaments which increased the potential for them to get prize money. Now, most of it is just Korean tournaments only.
This applies to any competition though. There will always be winners and losers.
And we also don't know that the hardwork won't pay off. Previously in the GSL, hard work DOES pay off because if you make it to code S, then you earn money. What we don't know yet, is how the point system works. I'm assuming that making it to the playoffs guarantees prize money.
Ok, is Blizzard going to be fronting up the prize money for the two GOM WCS Korea tournaments and the 1 OSL WCS Korea tournament? If they are then can't GOM or OGN just use the funds they had budgeted to put into another tournament? Blizzard DID say that they can still run other tournaments.
On April 04 2013 12:32 Kachna wrote: If you as korean cant qualify through GSL then whats point qualifying through NA or EU if you wont be able to beat koreans from GSL anyway in finals ?
Here's what MC is saying. Code S is decided, period. The qualifiers for the KR are essentially done. You are either in Code S or you have 0 chance for the first season(hence the comments about throwing away a third of the season). This is his point.
On April 04 2013 12:32 Kim Hyuna wrote: What MC said is true. WCS KR using GSL top 32 Code S as qualifier for WCS main event is an no go.
Meaning those potential that have chance to win the whole WCS (e.g. Code A YongHwa. Ryung, HerO. Nestea, aLive, ByuN etc) will NOT be able to even qualify for it.
Moving away from KR scene by joining EU/NA team would gave them an easier chance to qualify for WCS main event since korean's has been dominating EU/NA events. This is the worst case making Korean's programers to leave their home ground for a EU/NA teams. (e.g. Polt would swipe them whole NA qualifier).
I would not say an easier chance to qualify, they don't have to leave their home ground for a EU/NA team, they just need to fly to NA/EU for that particular weekend that MLG is happening or whatever other tournament is happening, just like what they had been doing all along for the past 2 years. Only thing is that if any korean do this they will not be completing in gsl, and that's all, they will still win all the money and all the points.
On April 04 2013 12:00 larse wrote: MC got the whole thing wrong.
He can still go to all the old tournaments he likes. MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, NASL. He can still do all these just like the old days.
They won't receive any qualifier points from those. If they lock their region as Korea. They can only gain points from team leagues (which I'm strongly opposed to) and GSL Code S breakdown. In other words, for this upcoming WCS you have to be in Code S. That means a lot of legitimate Koreans don't have the same equal opportunity as the players in Europe/NA start with a clean slate. It's a long process if you try to qualify through Korea whereas EU and NA regions have it much easier with the format and structure. It's less work and definitely less skill outside of KR. If Koreans decide to travel they have more restrictions based on scheduling. If they decide to compete/move to other regions it's going to be much harder for them to retain their skill.
How can you say they won't win points for those? the MLG events Koreans will play in wont be the WCS events. And I'd imagine like DH, those MLGs will have WCS points.
Nothing can be said for sure until the point system is revealed.
The bolded is true. From what I heard, only NA/EU players will be able to receive qualifier points from premiere tournaments outside of Korea because of the region lock. Yes, they'll still be able to compete, but they won't receive points from them. I'm sure NA players will only receive points from NA tournaments as well and the same rule will apply to Europeans. The amount of work/effort you put into LANs like DH/MLG/IEM is very different too. It's a matter of days to earn qualifier points; whereas, in Korea you have to be a Code S player and to earn points is a lot harder and it's dragged out by their format. There are only a few guys who would stick around for such a thing.
On April 04 2013 12:32 Kachna wrote: If you as korean cant qualify through GSL then whats point qualifying through NA or EU if you wont be able to beat koreans from GSL anyway in finals ?
They're able to beat the code s koreans, but qualifying through NA/EU would be much easier.
On April 04 2013 11:39 TommyP wrote: I remember on Lo3 that Incontrol was saying how he wanted to smack everyone that didn't agree this was a good thing. I really want to see incontrol hit MC.
Well of course the guy that has won like 1400 dollars total in his entire Sc2 career wants the amount of competition in Korea to be stifled tremendously and have the NA region gifted a whole bunch of undeserving seeds.
Unfortunately, it just means more Koreans coming and taking away NA/EU spots, and no one ends up winning.
The fact that they pretty much brutalised the GSL and destroyed what was a really efficient system and great thing to watch is just sad. But, I suppose someone has to pay the bills and it cant be helped.
The supply isn't there. It doesn't matter how hard a Korean works, because there will always be a percentage of players that probably won't be able to earn money.
For example, if only the top 1 player won money (out of 100 total players), then it doesn't matter how hard all the 100 players work to get that top place because 99 of them will always get no pay.
Of course, this is an issue with StarCraft 2 and South Korea mainly (SC2 isn't as big in South Korea anymore).
Before, Koreans had more freedom to do foreign tournaments which increased the potential for them to get prize money. Now, most of it is just Korean tournaments only.
This applies to any competition though. There will always be winners and losers.
And we also don't know that the hardwork won't pay off. Previously in the GSL, hard work DOES pay off because if you make it to code S, then you earn money. What we don't know yet, is how the point system works. I'm assuming that making it to the playoffs guarantees prize money.
Furthermore, we also don't know whether GomTV plans to host additional non-WCS events during the off-season of GSL to make up for it. They only said that you can't run non-WCS related events on the same weekend as the WCS events.
I basically was posting this in the announcement thread yesterday. By the creation of this system, there's no incentive to attempt to get into GSL anymore if you're not already there (Code B and potentially fringe Code A players) as, if your team has the money and many do (MVP, Startale, Axiom (even though they're out), Azubu, LG-IM etc.). As long as your team can send you to NA or EU to play the offline matches and finals, you can get all of the benefits of playing on the KR ladder with your teammates, help them prepare for matches, play GSTL or PL, and play on NA only when you need to play your online matches for WCS. Not only would your builds be hidden, but you'd be at a severe advantage in the quality of practice. The only downside is the ping, but that usually doesn't stop the Koreans in NASL which is basically what we're talking about here. They don't even have to move to the US or Europe!
In practicality, I can't see KeSPA sending anyone over, as it just doesn't seem like something they'd do, and I suppose that Korean teams won't cherrypick their players into the other regions, but if they were smart, I certainly think they would be wise to do so, they either have to put up with the latency or move to the US which is likely not financially viable.
On April 04 2013 12:32 Kachna wrote: If you as korean cant qualify through GSL then whats point qualifying through NA or EU if you wont be able to beat koreans from GSL anyway in finals ?
Here's what MC is saying. Code S is decided, period. The qualifiers for the KR are essentially done. You are either in Code S or you have 0 chance for the first season(hence the comments about throwing away a third of the season). This is his point.
Isnt he saying this because of his friend MVP btw ? Because he is not in Code S. Anyway WoL didnt have a lot of consistency. If you miss third of the season you can still catch up.
On April 04 2013 12:32 Kachna wrote: If you as korean cant qualify through GSL then whats point qualifying through NA or EU if you wont be able to beat koreans from GSL anyway in finals ?
well it's pretty obvious, they are qualifying through NA and EU so that we the consumers won't have to suffer through the roflstomp that is going to be a rape in the first round should an foreigner made it into the final tournament. But on a seriously note, they do get a lot of prize money for winning the qualifier tournaments.
Even if WCS KR was started as a new qualifier and tournament, entirely separate from GSL, it would still be hard as fuck for any given Korean to place. The chances of those who currently are code B/A in the current system would only be marginally better if WCS KR became an independent event.
And they can still treat GSL/OSL as they did before. While they were merged with WCS, it's not like they ceased to exist, since they still give out prize money and crown champions for individual seasons etc.
Ultimately Blizzard couldn't please everybody. The ideal system from a spectator standpoint is for GSL and OSL to have implications for WCS, rather than for WCS to be completely separate. Given this, Blizzard had to transition to the new system in the way that's best for SC2 esports, and IMO they did. It's unfortunate that a bunch of Koreans probably lost out on their chance at a share of $1.6 mil, but let's face it, they didn't have much of a chance either way.
On April 04 2013 12:00 larse wrote: MC got the whole thing wrong.
He can still go to all the old tournaments he likes. MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, NASL. He can still do all these just like the old days.
They won't receive any qualifier points from those. If they lock their region as Korea. They can only gain points from team leagues (which I'm strongly opposed to) and GSL Code S breakdown. In other words, for this upcoming WCS you have to be in Code S. That means a lot of legitimate Koreans don't have the same equal opportunity as the players in Europe/NA start with a clean slate. It's a long process if you try to qualify through Korea whereas EU and NA regions have it much easier with the format and structure. It's less work and definitely less skill outside of KR. If Koreans decide to travel they have more restrictions based on scheduling. If they decide to compete/move to other regions it's going to be much harder for them to retain their skill.
holy shit im so slow thank you for this post i finally get it lolol
On April 04 2013 12:32 Kim Hyuna wrote: What MC said is true. WCS KR using GSL top 32 Code S as qualifier for WCS main event is an no go.
Meaning those potential that have chance to win the whole WCS (e.g. Code A YongHwa. Ryung, HerO. Nestea, aLive, ByuN etc) will NOT be able to even qualify for it.
Moving away from KR scene by joining EU/NA team would gave them an easier chance to qualify for WCS main event since korean's has been dominating EU/NA events. This is the worst case making Korean's programers to leave their home ground for a EU/NA teams. (e.g. Polt would swipe them whole NA qualifier).
I would not say an easier chance to qualify, they don't have to leave their home ground for a EU/NA team, they just need to fly to NA/EU for that particular weekend that MLG is happening or whatever other tournament is happening, just like what they had been doing all along for the past 2 years. Only thing is that if any korean do this they will not be completing in gsl, and that's all, they will still win all the money and all the points.
Like what MC said, GSL alone is a prestige tournament which all Korean's progamers want a shot at it. Leaving KR to join MLG but not being able to participate in GSL is a no for most of them. Yonghwa knew he could take down MLG in ease that's why he left GSL U&D for it.
And remember, not all teams have the funds to send their best player for MLG or EU/NA qualifier because not everyone is like LGIMMVP.
I believed everyone should be given a fair chance to qualify (e.g. an separate qualifier for WCS).
On April 04 2013 12:00 larse wrote: MC got the whole thing wrong.
He can still go to all the old tournaments he likes. MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, NASL. He can still do all these just like the old days.
They won't receive any qualifier points from those. If they lock their region as Korea. They can only gain points from team leagues (which I'm strongly opposed to) and GSL Code S breakdown. In other words, for this upcoming WCS you have to be in Code S. That means a lot of legitimate Koreans don't have the same equal opportunity as the players in Europe/NA start with a clean slate. It's a long process if you try to qualify through Korea whereas EU and NA regions have it much easier with the format and structure. It's less work and definitely less skill outside of KR. If Koreans decide to travel they have more restrictions based on scheduling. If they decide to compete/move to other regions it's going to be much harder for them to retain their skill.
holy shit im so slow thank you for this post i finally get it lolol
The Koreans have legitimate concerns, well I think all players have legitimate concerns. I think Blizzard and the rest who took part in this WCS agenda will be watching very closely to see how their plan works out and will probably make changes for next year. Or if it works out then the Koreans fears may be belayed.
I posted my thoughts on this, indirectly, in the GSL thread:
I really hope the ESF players in particular give it their all. A lot of them feel like they're getting shortchanged and might try to drop out of the GSL by simply not caring/preparing and/or focusing entirely on the GSTL, so as to switch regions from KR to something else as soon as they can.
This would completely ruin the GSL...
I would not be surprised if by the end of 2013 GSL/OSL is almost entirely KeSPA players and most of the ESF players have decided to, if not already have, switched to NA/EU regions because of WCS and do not compete in the GSL anymore. While this isn't as much of a problem once it all happens and everything settles down. it is a problem when we still have pro-gamers who are unhappy with what they're stuck with and everything is admist a transition period. We've got many months to wait yet before things get fair and normal, I feel.
It is very likely that the GSL as we know it will die and we will see a significant portion of the ESF players not play in it anymore. The most frustrating part of that, however, is right now, when the players who want to make a switch can't because they are stuck in Code A/S. Once everyone is settled and happy in the regions they want to be in things will get good again - but that may not be for another 9 months.
I feel like there's pretty much no point to watching the GSL at all in the next few months. Right now some pro-gamers are frustrated and/or feel like it's a waste of time to play anymore, so they aren't "there" mentally. Some want to switch regions but can't - it's all a big mess, and the next few months of play in the GSL won't be truly indicative of much of anything, really.
Honestly if this was a separate thing then it would be no problem. We could just say "if you don't like it, don't play in it" - except because the GSL/OSL are directly involved now... they have/could effectively ruin(ed) the two biggest, most important leagues in SC2. This isn't something you can just ignore. It's a big problem.
I don't see why they had to change the format in the first place though? Last year's format seemed fine to me. In fact this year will probably be less internationally represented at the global finals considering no more #1 seeds for TW and CN from Asia and the fact that Koreans can qualify from NA and EU..
MC brings up some good points. Some people in this thread needs to stop seeing just what they want to see and learn some reading comprehension.
I really hope the ESF players in particular give it their all. A lot of them feel like they're getting shortchanged and might try to drop out of the GSL by simply not caring/preparing and/or focusing entirely on the GSTL, so as to switch regions from KR to something else as soon as they can.
This would completely ruin the GSL...
I would not be surprised if by the end of 2013 GSL/OSL is almost entirely KeSPA players and most of the ESF players have decided to, if not already have, switched to NA/EU regions because of WCS and do not compete in the GSL anymore. While this isn't as much of a problem once it all happens and everything settles down. it is a problem when we still have pro-gamers who are unhappy with what they're stuck with and everything is admist a transition period. We've got many months to wait yet before things get fair and normal, I feel.
It is very likely that the GSL as we know it will die and we will see a significant portion of the ESF players not play in it anymore. The most frustrating part of that, however, is right now, when the players who want to make a switch can't because they are stuck in Code A/S.
I feel like there's pretty much no point to watching the GSL at all in the next few months.
I agree with you that it's clearly the smart move for any Code B and maybe some Code A players to switch, but will the eSF teams cherry pick their players to region switch? It could over complicate things for team leagues etc. in terms of scheduling.
In terms of the average Korean's financial stability, however, I think people are missing the fact that NOTHING IS CHANGING (sorry for the caps, but this is critical), merely an additional system is being added to accrue points based on the existing system and online tournaments run by WCS. The average Korean still has to make his money from foreign tournaments (in this case non-affiliated ones) and GSL. I don't see what's different if they all stay in Korea. Things can only get better for them if they switch, as the money's easier.
From what I gather, the previous weekend events like MLG and Dreamhack are exactly the same. There's just another tournament during weekdays similar to gsl for NA and EU.
On April 04 2013 12:00 larse wrote: MC got the whole thing wrong.
He can still go to all the old tournaments he likes. MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, NASL. He can still do all these just like the old days.
They won't receive any qualifier points from those. If they lock their region as Korea. They can only gain points from team leagues (which I'm strongly opposed to) and GSL Code S breakdown. In other words, for this upcoming WCS you have to be in Code S. That means a lot of legitimate Koreans don't have the same equal opportunity as the players in Europe/NA start with a clean slate. It's a long process if you try to qualify through Korea whereas EU and NA regions have it much easier with the format and structure. It's less work and definitely less skill outside of KR. If Koreans decide to travel they have more restrictions based on scheduling. If they decide to compete/move to other regions it's going to be much harder for them to retain their skill.
holy shit im so slow thank you for this post i finally get it lolol
Your welcome. Everyone will have to hold their breath until we see how Blizzard and co. plan on divvying up qualifier points.
On April 04 2013 12:32 Kim Hyuna wrote: What MC said is true. WCS KR using GSL top 32 Code S as qualifier for WCS main event is an no go.
Meaning those potential that have chance to win the whole WCS (e.g. Code A YongHwa. Ryung, HerO. Nestea, aLive, ByuN etc) will NOT be able to even qualify for it.
Moving away from KR scene by joining EU/NA team would gave them an easier chance to qualify for WCS main event since korean's has been dominating EU/NA events. This is the worst case making Korean's programers to leave their home ground for a EU/NA teams. (e.g. Polt would swipe them whole NA qualifier).
I would not say an easier chance to qualify, they don't have to leave their home ground for a EU/NA team, they just need to fly to NA/EU for that particular weekend that MLG is happening or whatever other tournament is happening, just like what they had been doing all along for the past 2 years. Only thing is that if any korean do this they will not be completing in gsl, and that's all, they will still win all the money and all the points.
Like what MC said, GSL alone is a prestige tournament which all Korean's progamers want a shot at it. Leaving KR to join MLG but not being able to participate in GSL is a [b]no for most of them. Yonghwa knew he could take down MLG in ease that's why he left GSL U&D for it.
[/b] and this mentality of wanting a shot at the most prestige is what drives the koreans to be the best, but not every korean have the guts to clime the highest mountain if they choose to take the ez way out and win some money the option is there, blizzard made this system to reward skills(and koreans have all the skills), but at the end of the day, if you want to win it all at the end of the final tournament, you would have to go through all those ppl that qualify through the GSL anyways.
Here is the bottom line, the koreans will win every tournament, and all the money in all 3 continents.
I really hope the ESF players in particular give it their all. A lot of them feel like they're getting shortchanged and might try to drop out of the GSL by simply not caring/preparing and/or focusing entirely on the GSTL, so as to switch regions from KR to something else as soon as they can.
This would completely ruin the GSL...
I would not be surprised if by the end of 2013 GSL/OSL is almost entirely KeSPA players and most of the ESF players have decided to, if not already have, switched to NA/EU regions because of WCS and do not compete in the GSL anymore. While this isn't as much of a problem once it all happens and everything settles down. it is a problem when we still have pro-gamers who are unhappy with what they're stuck with and everything is admist a transition period. We've got many months to wait yet before things get fair and normal, I feel.
It is very likely that the GSL as we know it will die and we will see a significant portion of the ESF players not play in it anymore. The most frustrating part of that, however, is right now, when the players who want to make a switch can't because they are stuck in Code A/S. Once everyone is settled and happy in the regions they want to be in things will get good again - but that may not be for another 9 months.
I feel like there's pretty much no point to watching the GSL at all in the next few months.
Honestly if this was a separate thing then it would be no problem. We could just say "if you don't like it, don't play in it" - except because the GSL/OSL are directly involved now... they have/could effectively ruin(ed) the two biggest, most important leagues in SC2. This isn't something you can just ignore. It's a big problem.
"It is very likely" is just you talking out of your ass. We have no idea what's going to happen and we just have to wait and see. No point to watching GSL? That's overdramatic. If Korean players want to play in the most prestigious tournament, they will keep trying to compete in GSL/OSL, and I'd bet a lot of them will do just that. If nothing else, I can come up with equally convincing speculation that they will stay as you can that they will jump ship to NA/EU.
On April 04 2013 12:45 MCXD wrote: I posted my thoughts on this, indirectly, in the GSL thread:
I really hope the ESF players in particular give it their all. A lot of them feel like they're getting shortchanged and might try to drop out of the GSL by simply not caring/preparing and/or focusing entirely on the GSTL, so as to switch regions from KR to something else as soon as they can.
This would completely ruin the GSL...
I would not be surprised if by the end of 2013 GSL/OSL is almost entirely KeSPA players and most of the ESF players have decided to, if not already have, switched to NA/EU regions because of WCS and do not compete in the GSL anymore. While this isn't as much of a problem once it all happens and everything settles down. it is a problem when we still have pro-gamers who are unhappy with what they're stuck with and everything is admist a transition period. We've got many months to wait yet before things get fair and normal, I feel.
It is very likely that the GSL as we know it will die and we will see a significant portion of the ESF players not play in it anymore. The most frustrating part of that, however, is right now, when the players who want to make a switch can't because they are stuck in Code A/S. Once everyone is settled and happy in the regions they want to be in things will get good again - but that may not be for another 9 months.
I feel like there's pretty much no point to watching the GSL at all in the next few months.
Honestly if this was a separate thing then it would be no problem. We could just say "if you don't like it, don't play in it" - except because the GSL/OSL are directly involved now... they have/could effectively ruin(ed) the two biggest, most important leagues in SC2. This isn't something you can just ignore. It's a big problem.
"It is very likely" is just you talking out of your ass. We have no idea what's going to happen and we just have to wait and see. No point to watching GSL? That's overdramatic. If Korean players want to play in the most prestigious tournament, they will keep trying to compete in GSL/OSL, and I'd bet a lot of them will do just that. If nothing else, I can come up with equally convincing speculation that they will stay as you can that they will jump ship to NA/EU.
Any Code S player or high Code A (essentially fringe Code S) player would be nuts to change regions now, and if a bunch of Code B players switch, that's not really going to affect Code S except for an up and comer potentially in a few seasons. As I posted before, the money isn't changing for Koreans, only getting better if the Code B guys decide to take over NA.
MC definitely has a point. All of the Code A people basically get shafted. They have no say, they don't get points and they don't get to switch regions while all the foreigners get to. Korea should definitely be compensated in this system for being better and for having so many players screwed over like this. The GSL (As in Korean WCS) should definitely give more points. It is straight up not fair that that the foreign equivalent tournaments give the same number of points when the level of play isn't even close to the same. There should be incentives for Koreans to stay in Korea so that the level of play stays high and we don't see mass migration of Korean players to the US or EU. Currently there are no incentives. It is choose a foreign region (if you aren't screwed over by the system already and trapped in KR) and walk through the tournaments or stay in Korea, work your butt off, and still probably not get through. It is pretty obvious which choice those outside of the extreme top tier in Korea are going to choose. Well that or retire, which is even worse because that is harmful to the scene. Losing talent is never a good thing. We need a middle tier of solid pros that have good days and bad days. With this system it will turn into the top tier and those who have enough money to move or travel to other regions. I am worried about how this will affect up-and-coming players or those that aren't heavily funded.
It almost feels as though they planned this with the idea that people would stay in their current regions and not switch to easier ones. It seems like there were some MASSIVE oversights with the design of this system.
They also should have waited until next season to start this with the GSL for a couple reasons. A) so we could perhaps get a more evenly distributed race representation in GSL now that we have a new game (not to mention a more balanced game where skill is more of a factor now) rather than having 13 Zergs in the first season of WCS Korea that in some cases got there because of an old game, and B) so people currently in the GSL could know the system and have the choice between moving regions or staying.
This all feels very poorly planned when it comes to how Korea was fit into the system. I am hoping it turns out better than they have explained it but as it stands there are some glaring flaws that could potentially mess up the whole thing.
On April 04 2013 12:45 MCXD wrote: I posted my thoughts on this, indirectly, in the GSL thread:
I really hope the ESF players in particular give it their all. A lot of them feel like they're getting shortchanged and might try to drop out of the GSL by simply not caring/preparing and/or focusing entirely on the GSTL, so as to switch regions from KR to something else as soon as they can.
This would completely ruin the GSL...
I would not be surprised if by the end of 2013 GSL/OSL is almost entirely KeSPA players and most of the ESF players have decided to, if not already have, switched to NA/EU regions because of WCS and do not compete in the GSL anymore. While this isn't as much of a problem once it all happens and everything settles down. it is a problem when we still have pro-gamers who are unhappy with what they're stuck with and everything is admist a transition period. We've got many months to wait yet before things get fair and normal, I feel.
It is very likely that the GSL as we know it will die and we will see a significant portion of the ESF players not play in it anymore. The most frustrating part of that, however, is right now, when the players who want to make a switch can't because they are stuck in Code A/S. Once everyone is settled and happy in the regions they want to be in things will get good again - but that may not be for another 9 months.
I feel like there's pretty much no point to watching the GSL at all in the next few months.
Honestly if this was a separate thing then it would be no problem. We could just say "if you don't like it, don't play in it" - except because the GSL/OSL are directly involved now... they have/could effectively ruin(ed) the two biggest, most important leagues in SC2. This isn't something you can just ignore. It's a big problem.
"It is very likely" is just you talking out of your ass. We have no idea what's going to happen and we just have to wait and see. No point to watching GSL? That's overdramatic. If Korean players want to play in the most prestigious tournament, they will keep trying to compete in GSL/OSL, and I'd bet a lot of them will do just that. If nothing else, I can come up with equally convincing speculation that they will stay as you can that they will jump ship to NA/EU.
We can keep watching. But not everyone has this romantic ideals of just playing in the most prestigious tournament. They need to earn money too, they are doing it as a 'profession'. I'm fairly confident we will see a at least a small number of Koreans choosing to participate in NA/EU WCS if they can afford the investment.
SO is the big decsion because you get locked into a region as soon as you play in one of the "leagues?" Does this mean no GSL players can play in IEM or MLG?? and vice versa? Or at the very least they can't earn points once locked into another region, basically giving them less incentive to do so?
It probably would've been better to start WCS Korea from scratch as well . Beeing judged by a , lets face it , pretty broken WoL isn't exactly a great idea. Not to mention it completely scews any Asian thats not a Korean .
On April 04 2013 12:55 onPHYRE wrote: SO is the big decsion because you get locked into a region as soon as you play in one of the "leagues?" Does this mean no GSL players can play in IEM or MLG?? and vice versa?
No, you declare which region your WCS ranking and competition will be in, KR, NA or EU. You then play in WCS sanctioned events online and at the major tournament in your region, accruing points. There's a system for who has the most points at certain intervals, which eventually leads to a few WCS affiliated LANs at the big regional tournaments like MLG and IEM and then the final at Blizzcon.
There will be non-WCS affiliated portions at MLG, IEM etc. which anyone will be able to participate in, regardless of region.
On April 04 2013 12:32 Kim Hyuna wrote: What MC said is true. WCS KR using GSL top 32 Code S as qualifier for WCS main event is an no go.
Meaning those potential that have chance to win the whole WCS (e.g. Code A YongHwa. Ryung, HerO. Nestea, aLive, ByuN etc) will NOT be able to even qualify for it.
Moving away from KR scene by joining EU/NA team would gave them an easier chance to qualify for WCS main event since korean's has been dominating EU/NA events. This is the worst case making Korean's programers to leave their home ground for a EU/NA teams. (e.g. Polt would swipe them whole NA qualifier).
I would not say an easier chance to qualify, they don't have to leave their home ground for a EU/NA team, they just need to fly to NA/EU for that particular weekend that MLG is happening or whatever other tournament is happening, just like what they had been doing all along for the past 2 years. Only thing is that if any korean do this they will not be completing in gsl, and that's all, they will still win all the money and all the points.
Like what MC said, GSL alone is a prestige tournament which all Korean's progamers want a shot at it. Leaving KR to join MLG but not being able to participate in GSL is a [b]no for most of them. Yonghwa knew he could take down MLG in ease that's why he left GSL U&D for it.
and this mentality of wanting a shot at the most prestige is what drives the koreans to be the best, but not every korean have the guts to clime the highest mountain if they choose to take the ez way out and win some money the option is there, blizzard made this system to reward skills(and koreans have all the skills), but at the end of the day, if you want to win it all at the end of the final tournament, you would have to go through all those ppl that qualify through the GSL anyways.
Here is the bottom line, the koreans will win every tournament, and all the money in all 3 continents.
[/b]
You still fail to see my point. The new format of putting Top 32 Code S for WCS is a joke and not because the Korean's doesn't have the guts to climb the highest mountain. Even with the guts and skills, they were unable to compete in WCS because they are in GSL Code A/B putting them in the lowest point as a programer and do note that Korean's have very big ego in their pride.
By refusing an entry to WCS because they are labelled as Code A/B would basically kill off their career as an programer in KR. Like i said again, Blizzard need to think and give chances to those A/B players too.
Not all Code A/B players are as BAD as compared to those Top 32 Code S players. And, this is HOTS not WoL and fair play system needs to kick in allowing the A/B players to participate.
Naniwa and Sase are geniuses. All the koreans will go to NA and EU looking for easy wins, only to end up playing each other anyway and leaving no Koreans left in Korea, leading to an epic Nani/Sase GSL finals. Mindgames...such ballers those two.
On April 04 2013 12:55 onPHYRE wrote: SO is the big decsion because you get locked into a region as soon as you play in one of the "leagues?" Does this mean no GSL players can play in IEM or MLG?? and vice versa?
No, you declare which region your WCS ranking and competition will be in, KR, NA or EU. You then play in WCS sanctioned events online and at the major tournament in your region, accruing points. There's a system for who has the most points at certain intervals, which eventually leads to a few WCS affiliated LANs at the big regional tournaments like MLG and IEM and then the final at Blizzcon.
There will be non-WCS affiliated portions at MLG, IEM etc. which anyone will be able to participate in, regardless of region.
This would mean even more Koreans will show up in foreigner tournaments to raise the skill level of foreign events, blizzard had thought this through, good move.
On April 04 2013 13:00 vesicular wrote: Naniwa and Sase are geniuses. All the koreans will go to NA and EU looking for easy wins, only to end up playing each other anyway and leaving no Koreans left in Korea, leading to an epic Nani/Sase GSL finals. Mindgames...such ballers those two.
Sad to say, even most KR programers leave KR scene still leave them no chance to beating a KR programer in GSL final.
On April 04 2013 13:00 vesicular wrote: Naniwa and Sase are geniuses. All the koreans will go to NA and EU looking for easy wins, only to end up playing each other anyway and leaving no Koreans left in Korea, leading to an epic Nani/Sase GSL finals. Mindgames...such ballers those two.
You had me on board until I remembered KeSPA's not going anywhere T_T
On April 04 2013 12:55 onPHYRE wrote: SO is the big decsion because you get locked into a region as soon as you play in one of the "leagues?" Does this mean no GSL players can play in IEM or MLG?? and vice versa?
No, you declare which region your WCS ranking and competition will be in, KR, NA or EU. You then play in WCS sanctioned events online and at the major tournament in your region, accruing points. There's a system for who has the most points at certain intervals, which eventually leads to a few WCS affiliated LANs at the big regional tournaments like MLG and IEM and then the final at Blizzcon.
There will be non-WCS affiliated portions at MLG, IEM etc. which anyone will be able to participate in, regardless of region.
This would mean even more Koreans will show up in foreigner tournaments to raise the skill level of foreign events, blizzard had thought this through, good move.
What? I don't see what you're saying. Koreans are still going to be limited by what their teams can afford to pay to send them, and that's always going to be the bottom line.
On April 04 2013 13:00 vesicular wrote: Naniwa and Sase are geniuses. All the koreans will go to NA and EU looking for easy wins, only to end up playing each other anyway and leaving no Koreans left in Korea, leading to an epic Nani/Sase GSL finals. Mindgames...such ballers those two.
They both have foresight in seeing there would be a mass increase of koreans in foreigner events because of this, and it would be impossible like it had always been for them to win anything at all, and they would be better off training and compete with the best to get better.
On April 04 2013 12:55 s3rp wrote: It probably would've been better to start WCS Korea from scratch as well . Beeing judged by a , lets face it , pretty broken WoL isn't exactly a great idea. Not to mention it completely scews any Asian thats not a Korean .
pretty much this. but i have to wonder if gomtv and ogn will just do another tournaments and maybe call that OSL and GSL instead. they could use the "old money" from other sponsors for that and the money from blizz for WCS korea.
one big thing i didnt see mentioned is that GSL is now on korean TV (or was it before?), that could lead to bigger interest and probably catch some new sponsors for korean teams. well lets wait and see what happens, i hope it will be fine^^
Weird. I would have thought this would be a good thing for korean pros. I don't understand how this is worse than a WCS korea where they face the same competition anyway? It's bad for foreign quals but great for korea...
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
On April 04 2013 12:38 ETisME wrote: Well then wcs is just gonna be so boring to watch. The skill difference between the players will be too big to enjoy until the foreigners are all out
GSL and OSL will still be by far the most prestigious tournaments. the foreigner riddled tourneys will be trash because they will have tons of B teamers that felt like getting free rides in NA / EU
And people say Blizzard didn't screw up... Riot > Blizzard.
They took into account for this happening, but I guess they didn't they into account how all those Code A and Code B people got shafted... I feel for All the players BossToss mentioned.
MC is right. It seems like in EU and NA, MLG and ESL will still run their regular tournaments, whereas in Korea GSL transforms into WCS. Why not have GSL and a WCS?
Well described by MC. However the soccer analogy isn't perfect. The soccer does have a common thing with WCS in Champions League. Its true that the best footballing nations have extra slots in champions league, however its still disproportionate to the skill level in say Premier league, la liga, league A (italian) and so on. I haven't really checked out the WCS format exhaustively, but I'd be amazed if there was no other direct qualifiers or ways to gain sufficient outside GSL.
Another thing, is that even though koreans feel they got the worse end of the deal, its still a freebie in my eyes. When some one adds extra cash/tournaments as charity or gesture of good will you can't really complain when all the cash doesn't sprinkle down on you.
If a lot of koreans DO decide to move its a very good thing for the game in my opinion. That means they will go to team houses abroad with a great mindset and skill. This will certainly improve the level of foreigners determination and mechanics. Overall it's an improvement of the global skill level.
On April 04 2013 12:55 onPHYRE wrote: SO is the big decsion because you get locked into a region as soon as you play in one of the "leagues?" Does this mean no GSL players can play in IEM or MLG?? and vice versa?
No, you declare which region your WCS ranking and competition will be in, KR, NA or EU. You then play in WCS sanctioned events online and at the major tournament in your region, accruing points. There's a system for who has the most points at certain intervals, which eventually leads to a few WCS affiliated LANs at the big regional tournaments like MLG and IEM and then the final at Blizzcon.
There will be non-WCS affiliated portions at MLG, IEM etc. which anyone will be able to participate in, regardless of region.
This would mean even more Koreans will show up in foreigner tournaments to raise the skill level of foreign events, blizzard had thought this through, good move.
What? I don't see what you're saying. Koreans are still going to be limited by what their teams can afford to pay to send them, and that's always going to be the bottom line.
You have go a point here, so far most of the koreans who got invited were paid for by the event organizers, and those who didn't get the invite have to have their team pay for the trip. I suppose we won't see a huge increase of korean after all, what a shame.
well hopefully since Blizzard implemented this horrible plan the foreign teams will replace all foreigners with koreans and start running like Korean teams. This isn't going to make foreigners better, they will never play as well as Koreans with their training methods. All this is doing is making us see less true high level play since the koreans cant move around. A better use of that prize money would have been to fund foreign training houses that are ran like Korean ones. Now they are having more foreigners play when everyone knows that better players are out there. I just don't understand people who don't want to watch only the absolute best play, it's like picking the CFL over the NFL
Does anyone seriously think any Code A player really wants to give up the chance to be a GSL or OSL champion to instead attempt to be the North American WCS Champ?
Im thinking it doesnt change much, except more skilled players in tournaments (=koreans) and i think thats fair. Every korean or foreign team will split there flock of players over the three competitions(continents) so they have the most chance for exposure for sponsors. And dont worry, the sponsors will gladly pay for the trip to landay, so there players and there brand will shine on the superbowl of SC2.
A big fus over nothing. We are finally gonna see the best players in the world compete, regardless of nationality (which will mean 13 koreans and 2 foreigners). I think its completly fair for the players (as the best will compete with the best) and e-sports will thrive because of this.
On April 04 2013 12:32 Kim Hyuna wrote: What MC said is true. WCS KR using GSL top 32 Code S as qualifier for WCS main event is an no go.
Meaning those potential that have chance to win the whole WCS (e.g. Code A YongHwa. Ryung, HerO. Nestea, aLive, ByuN etc) will NOT be able to even qualify for it.
Moving away from KR scene by joining EU/NA team would gave them an easier chance to qualify for WCS main event since korean's has been dominating EU/NA events. This is the worst case making Korean's programers to leave their home ground for a EU/NA teams. (e.g. Polt would swipe them whole NA qualifier).
I would not say an easier chance to qualify, they don't have to leave their home ground for a EU/NA team, they just need to fly to NA/EU for that particular weekend that MLG is happening or whatever other tournament is happening, just like what they had been doing all along for the past 2 years. Only thing is that if any korean do this they will not be completing in gsl, and that's all, they will still win all the money and all the points.
Like what MC said, GSL alone is a prestige tournament which all Korean's progamers want a shot at it. Leaving KR to join MLG but not being able to participate in GSL is a [b]no for most of them. Yonghwa knew he could take down MLG in ease that's why he left GSL U&D for it.
and this mentality of wanting a shot at the most prestige is what drives the koreans to be the best, but not every korean have the guts to clime the highest mountain if they choose to take the ez way out and win some money the option is there, blizzard made this system to reward skills(and koreans have all the skills), but at the end of the day, if you want to win it all at the end of the final tournament, you would have to go through all those ppl that qualify through the GSL anyways.
Here is the bottom line, the koreans will win every tournament, and all the money in all 3 continents.
You still fail to see my point. The new format of putting Top 32 Code S for WCS is a joke and not because the Korean's doesn't have the guts to climb the highest mountain. Even with the guts and skills, they were unable to compete in WCS because they are in GSL Code A/B putting them in the lowest point as a programer and do note that Korean's have very big ego in their pride.
By refusing an entry to WCS because they are labelled as Code A/B would basically kill off their career as an programer in KR. Like i said again, Blizzard need to think and give chances to those A/B players too.
Not all Code A/B players are as BAD as compared to those Top 32 Code S players. And, this is HOTS not WoL and fair play system needs to kick in allowing the A/B players to participate.
[/b] i see what you mean, gsl have the code s and code a system where 8 ppl from code S gets seeded, and ppl from code B don't have excess to code S right away even if they qualify for code A, they need to remove all the seeds and have a huge open tournament to establish all the seeding again to make it fair.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
On April 04 2013 13:11 HappyTimePANDA wrote: I just don't understand people who don't want to watch only the absolute best play, it's like picking the CFL over the NFL
You're ignoring the fact that the NFL used to not include the AFL, and the first two Super Bowls (then called the AFL/NFL Championship) were considered a joke, just like the WCS is being considered one now, and for the same reasons. How'd that turn out?
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
I believe Blizzard is looking at the wrong direction when coming with a worldwide league. If they wanted a tournament to find out who's the best of the best in the world, individually, that should be the already-established GSL/OSL. It seems unfair that there's a world championship tournament when the only country with a fully stabalized eSports foundation is Korea, giving them the advantage, as we know already.
I think a better idea would be a worldwide Proleague. A teamleague would, not completely, prevent the best of the best players to win for their team (and they likely would, as it should), but the whole point of it is to give more exposure to foreign teams and foreign players. I'm sure sponsors would love to hear another "Thorzain all-kills IM" than "Top foreigner gets last place in a league filled with Koreans".
But, maybe I'm just not getting the whole point of this. o.O
Interesting that they would allow people of any nationality to take part in any of the regions, considering that one of the initial reasons for WCS was to "allow local heroes to rise to the top". I guess they've moved on from that
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
I did say it was my ideal situation, not the best situation.
If foreigners are worse than B teamers and can't find a way to improve and win, yes that's what I want. If foreigners improve enough to beat B teamers, then great, I'd rather watch those guys.
On April 04 2013 13:19 Weirdkid wrote: Interesting that they would allow people of any nationality to take part in any of the regions, considering that one of the initial reasons for WCS was to "allow local heroes to rise to the top". I guess they've moved on from that
If u want to participate in the olympics, u need to pass a threshold regardless of nationality. I think its fair.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
I did say it was my ideal situation, not the best situation.
Damn, that's a pretty sterile outlook. Kinda takes the heart out of it.
If foreigners are worse than B teamers and can't find a way to improve and win, yes that's what I want. If foreigners improve enough to beat B teamers, then great, I'd rather watch those guys.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
I did say it was my ideal situation, not the best situation.
If foreigners are worse than B teamers and can't find a way to improve and win, yes that's what I want. If foreigners improve enough to beat B teamers, then great, I'd rather watch those guys.
Damn, that's a pretty sterile outlook. Kinda takes the heart out of it.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
I did say it was my ideal situation, not the best situation.
If foreigners are worse than B teamers and can't find a way to improve and win, yes that's what I want. If foreigners improve enough to beat B teamers, then great, I'd rather watch those guys.
Damn, that's a pretty sterile outlook. Kinda takes the heart out of it.
I'm an Asian robot, go figure :p
Edit: On a positive note maybe YUGIOHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh will move to Catz' house and win WCS NA.
On April 04 2013 13:12 vesicular wrote: Does anyone seriously think any Code A player really wants to give up the chance to be a GSL or OSL champion to instead attempt to be the North American WCS Champ?
they arent going to NA to be the wcs champ, its for the money. Most of those code a guys get no salary. So why stay in code a(where winnings are minimal), fighting for a potential code s spot(whose winnings are heavy on top), when they know they can get easier access to winnings outside of korea.
edit: i read somewhere kespa or gom or one of those organizations wanted to do weekendish events like mlg, but in korea. Like some random 2-3 day lan tourneys or even more online tourneys based in korea. If those are implemented, i can see those code a/b guys staying in korea.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
"Faceless" is just your opinion. Watching Demuslim play 2v2s and 4v4s and losing to random players on NA ladder seems less appealing to me than Apocalypse grinding game after game in KR master's league.
On April 04 2013 13:19 Weirdkid wrote: Interesting that they would allow people of any nationality to take part in any of the regions, considering that one of the initial reasons for WCS was to "allow local heroes to rise to the top". I guess they've moved on from that
If u want to participate in the olympics, u need to pass a threshold regardless of nationality. I think its fair.
I don't see how your response actually responds to what I was trying to talk about, so I'll clarify
I meant that one of the main purposes of WCS was to bring out and showcase the talents from different countries. Now that they've made it such that anyone can play in any region, it doesn't quite fulfil that purpose anymore.
But I guess this new format might just be them moving on from their initial vision of what WCS should be. People/companies change afterall.
So, whatever happened to that thing Slasher was saying about the GM leagues getting invited into the feeder competitions? Or is that more of a NA/EU thing...
On April 04 2013 13:12 vesicular wrote: Does anyone seriously think any Code A player really wants to give up the chance to be a GSL or OSL champion to instead attempt to be the North American WCS Champ?
they arent going to NA to be the wcs champ, its for the money. Most of those code a guys get no salary. So why stay in code a(where winnings are minimal), fighting for a potential code s spot(whose winnings are heavy on top), when they know they can get easier access to winnings outside of korea.
Ahh so they're not serious about being the best player in the world, got it.
I'm sorry, but all i really see is MC worrying about the potential of him being turned into a B-teamer again, and fretting that there will be a clear top tier beginning to separate itself from the rest of korea.
Players will have to make a choice. I suspect more people will go to na/eu than a lot of people think.
The prestige of GSL is going to fade though, at least for code a. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
On April 04 2013 13:32 felisconcolori wrote: So, whatever happened to that thing Slasher was saying about the GM leagues getting invited into the feeder competitions? Or is that more of a NA/EU thing...
Just NA and EU most likely, given that the korean scene is already well structured.
On April 04 2013 13:12 vesicular wrote: Does anyone seriously think any Code A player really wants to give up the chance to be a GSL or OSL champion to instead attempt to be the North American WCS Champ?
unless the point system and prize money is heavily skewed towards wcs korea. it makes more sense for a code a to try and win wcs na/eu than wcs korea. gsl and osl prestige means nothing in this new format given. they are really just a point feeder into wcs global which is now the real competition (not gsl, osl, mlg or iem). the lost of prestige by qualifying through an "easier" route is overshadowed by the fact that competition in wcs global will probably be dominated by koreans anyway. i really dont see why a code a player would hurt their chances for wcs global by playing in a harder league just to win gsl and osl when they can just cruise in wcs global through na and eu.
On April 04 2013 13:38 Angel_ wrote: I'm sorry, but all i really see is MC worrying about the potential of him being turned into a B-teamer again, and fretting that there will be a clear top tier beginning to separate itself from the rest of korea.
Players will have to make a choice. I suspect more people will go to na/eu than a lot of people think.
The prestige of GSL is going to fade though, at least for code a. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Hmm lets see, MC the most successful protoss in the GSL and all-time highest money winner who has an exclusive contract with SK is worried about being a B-teamer?
ahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha funniest thing I heard all year. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
I think it is highly unlikely that the kespa B team players will be moving out of korea for WCS because the entire infrastructure of the teamhouses is that the B teams help the A teams train for the big money. By moving out of the country they aren't really able to help where it counts.
Seems like things are getting better for the non- top tier Koreans. They simply have more options to gain access to the biggest tournament: play in US / EU, instead of being stuck Code A or even outside of Code A. The pressure is on the EU / NA players now, and is that a good thing? Too hard to judge.
The question though should be .... if WCS qualification process is independent from the running leagues / tournaments a better model , which deserves its own thread.
I see no reasons for any Koreans to live permanently outside of Korea.
On April 04 2013 14:04 Roarer wrote: Seems like things are getting better for the non- top tier Koreans. They simply have more options to gain access to the biggest tournament: play in US / EU, instead of being stuck Code A or even outside of Code A. The pressure is on the EU / NA players now, and is that a good thing? Too hard to judge.
The question though should be .... if WCS qualification process is independent from the running leagues / tournaments a better model , which deserves its own thread.
I see no reasons for any Koreans to live permanently outside of Korea.
As long as they are willing to put up with any latency issues, and can afford to fly themselves to the "final events" for the WCS process, there's no reason for them to have to move. They don't have to live in the region, but if they don't they won't get paid travel to get to the top whatever final live event for that region.
Also, let me just say, Polt's game sense just proved to be better than Flash in the tournament meta. Although I don't know how much practice he'll be getting while he studies.
On April 04 2013 14:04 Roarer wrote: Seems like things are getting better for the non- top tier Koreans. They simply have more options to gain access to the biggest tournament: play in US / EU, instead of being stuck Code A or even outside of Code A. The pressure is on the EU / NA players now, and is that a good thing? Too hard to judge.
The question though should be .... if WCS qualification process is independent from the running leagues / tournaments a better model , which deserves its own thread.
I see no reasons for any Koreans to live permanently outside of Korea.
And that's the thing, like MC said. The regions aren't even region locked - you can play all of the WCS games online apparently. Or, at least, most of them. If you can play weekend WCS NA MLG events for points, then go to the three major LANs, then you're set.
I love the quote from the first page of Incontrol wanting to "punch" anyone who didn't agree that it's a good thing. Well, MC just threw down the gauntlet and made pretty much unimpeachable points. What did he say that was legitimately untrue or manufactured? Mike Morhaime even admitted to it in the Q&A - Koreans will probably declare in droves for the NA/EU regions and sweep the qualifiers, making the WCS championships laughably 16/16 Korean.
On April 04 2013 14:11 Mauldo wrote: I love the quote from the first page of Incontrol wanting to "punch" anyone who didn't agree that it's a good thing. Well, MC just threw down the gauntlet and made pretty much unimpeachable points.
The problem is incontrol is right, this is a good thing. The fact that everyone wants to be cynical about it doesn't change that fact.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
"Faceless" is just your opinion. Watching Demuslim play 2v2s and 4v4s and losing to random players on NA ladder seems less appealing to me than Apocalypse grinding game after game in KR master's league.
"Faceless" isn't just his opinion. Viewership numbers have historically plummeted for Korean/Korean games when compared to Foreigner/Foreigner or Foreigner/Korean games. Give us a tournament where the Top 8 is Korean (and obviously isn't GSL/Proleague) and viewer numbers plummet.
I mean, look at the streams on the side. Just a few hours ago Demuslim had how many thousands of viewers? Liquid'Hero had 600 max.
And even right now, midnight Central Standard Time, Suppy as 1069 viewers, Catz has 501, Leiya 1128, and then Cella with 333 and Hwangsin at 203.
And that spread, no matter how you want to twist it, has been typical from the start. The numbers don't back you up man, sorry. WCS is literally tying its own noose by not enforcing residency as a requirement for the region lock. WCS NA isn't WCS NA if, you know, there aren't any North Americans playing in it.
People should stop watching the Olympics because it's not the best of the best. I can't tell you how enraged I get when I watch the 100 meter dash and I see a white a guy. A white guy!?! Fuck Sweeden, give me a black guy. Always ruins the experience for me. Instead of having the best guys in the world! I'm stuck with 5 of the best and then 5 random white guys.
You know what would be the most genius solution ever!? Make Sweden a region and allow black people from other countries to choose Sweden as their country, and then we can have the 10 best guys in the world! Man, thank god for brilliant solutions like this. The Olympics will finally be worth watching and sponsors can finally feel compelled to put some money into it. I'm amazing, I work at Blizzard.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
"Faceless" is just your opinion. Watching Demuslim play 2v2s and 4v4s and losing to random players on NA ladder seems less appealing to me than Apocalypse grinding game after game in KR master's league.
"Faceless" isn't just his opinion. Viewership numbers have historically plummeted for Korean/Korean games when compared to Foreigner/Foreigner or Foreigner/Korean games. Give us a tournament where the Top 8 is Korean (and obviously isn't GSL/Proleague) and viewer numbers plummet.
I mean, look at the streams on the side. Just a few hours ago Demuslim had how many thousands of viewers? Liquid'Hero had 600 max.
And even right now, midnight Central Standard Time, Suppy as 1069 viewers, Catz has 501, Leiya 1128, and then Cella with 333 and Hwangsin at 203.
And that spread, no matter how you want to twist it, has been typical from the start. The numbers don't back you up man, sorry. WCS is literally tying its own noose by not enforcing residency as a requirement for the region lock. WCS NA isn't WCS NA if, you know, there aren't any North Americans playing in it.
Umm MLG? Top 8 was all Korean and it had way higher viewers than the ro32. Personal stream viewers aren't that relevant because very very few top Koreans stream while pretty much every top foreigner streams. Mostly it's just the Code B Koreans and Koreans on foreign teams. If Nestea/MVP/Parting/Life streamed consistently they would get more numbers than anyone besides like Grubby and Stephano maybe.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
I think it is highly unlikely that the kespa B team players will be moving out of korea for WCS because the entire infrastructure of the teamhouses is that the B teams help the A teams train for the big money. By moving out of the country they aren't really able to help where it counts.
Actually i think that's exactly why most teams might send its B players to other region. These B-teamers will still want to participate in WCS as well . So B-teamers of Kespa or even ESF teams can join NA/EU so it reduces the possibility of meeting their teammates in tournaments. Thus they can still be efficient practice partners because they don't have to hide their builds from the A-team who is in KR. Previously, things get awkward between teammates who encounter each other in a tournament because they then have to hide builds. This way, the A-teamers and B-teamers can support each other to qualify in their respective regions.
The early rounds can be played online so it is only if the B players do get to Ro 16 that they have to make an overseas trip. And if they did make it that far, the potential gain outweigh the cost of sending. I am sure many sponsors will be ready to support on a new rising star who has made the top 16 as well.
On April 04 2013 14:11 Mauldo wrote: I love the quote from the first page of Incontrol wanting to "punch" anyone who didn't agree that it's a good thing. Well, MC just threw down the gauntlet and made pretty much unimpeachable points.
The problem is incontrol is right, this is a good thing. The fact that everyone wants to be cynical about it doesn't change that fact.
It's a good thing on principle, yeah, but to declare it an unblemished God Child of Possibilities and not see the issues others have as legitimate is unreasonable. I've only ever had one other beef with Incontrol before (back when he left SOTG because they "weren't paying him enough"), and this will have to count as number two.
When you've got MC and numerous other Koreans ranting about the region lock issues, and you plug your ears singing "Lalala, this is great, lalala" it's not helping anything.
Don't get me wrong. WCS in principle is wonderful. Last WCS was great. But it was great because the tourneys were actually region locked, like WCG except for awesome and not completely backass retarded. Their World Championships actually consisted of, you know, the world.
This WCS just seems...off. If that makes me cynical, then I'll count my company of Taeja, MC, Scarlett, et all. and be happy with it.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
"Faceless" is just your opinion. Watching Demuslim play 2v2s and 4v4s and losing to random players on NA ladder seems less appealing to me than Apocalypse grinding game after game in KR master's league.
"Faceless" isn't just his opinion. Viewership numbers have historically plummeted for Korean/Korean games when compared to Foreigner/Foreigner or Foreigner/Korean games. Give us a tournament where the Top 8 is Korean (and obviously isn't GSL/Proleague) and viewer numbers plummet.
I mean, look at the streams on the side. Just a few hours ago Demuslim had how many thousands of viewers? Liquid'Hero had 600 max.
And even right now, midnight Central Standard Time, Suppy as 1069 viewers, Catz has 501, Leiya 1128, and then Cella with 333 and Hwangsin at 203.
And that spread, no matter how you want to twist it, has been typical from the start. The numbers don't back you up man, sorry. WCS is literally tying its own noose by not enforcing residency as a requirement for the region lock. WCS NA isn't WCS NA if, you know, there aren't any North Americans playing in it.
Umm MLG? Top 8 was all Korean and it had way higher viewers than the ro32. Personal stream viewers aren't that relevant because very very few top Koreans stream while pretty much every top foreigner streams. Mostly it's just the Code B Koreans and Koreans on foreign teams. If Nestea/MVP/Parting/Life streamed consistently they would get more numbers than anyone besides like Grubby and Stephano maybe.
And that was based off of HOTS hype. Everyone said "Wow, those numbers. Just imagine if Ret had managed to stick around longer."
Even in a world where MLG kept a huge audience with the ro8, everyone still found it sensible to say "But a foreigner would have made numbers better." I think that alone wins the argument for me.
On April 04 2013 13:19 Weirdkid wrote: Interesting that they would allow people of any nationality to take part in any of the regions, considering that one of the initial reasons for WCS was to "allow local heroes to rise to the top". I guess they've moved on from that
If u want to participate in the olympics, u need to pass a threshold regardless of nationality. I think its fair.
I don't see how your response actually responds to what I was trying to talk about, so I'll clarify
I meant that one of the main purposes of WCS was to bring out and showcase the talents from different countries. Now that they've made it such that anyone can play in any region, it doesn't quite fulfil that purpose anymore.
But I guess this new format might just be them moving on from their initial vision of what WCS should be. People/companies change afterall.
I agree, the purpose changed. But it is more fair then ever before. For example : No more lucifron vs life or MVP v.s. Snute semifinals because they were also picked based on nationality (and didnt pick better koreans because of marketing etcetc). Although, i like bot players very much, they are not yet on par with some topkoreans.
This new setup will result in a smaller difference between quality on NA, EU and KR ladder. Which in turn means that EU-players get more practise against better players. In the long run the big leap between Korea and the world will become smaller and smaller. I still see the changes as positive for short term and long term for every proplayer in the world.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
I mean, look at the streams on the side. Just a few hours ago Demuslim had how many thousands of viewers? Liquid'Hero had 600 max.
And even right now, midnight Central Standard Time, Suppy as 1069 viewers, Catz has 501, Leiya 1128, and then Cella with 333 and Hwangsin at 203.
And that spread, no matter how you want to twist it, has been typical from the start. The numbers don't back you up man, sorry. WCS is literally tying its own noose by not enforcing residency as a requirement for the region lock. WCS NA isn't WCS NA if, you know, there aren't any North Americans playing in it.
Dragon has over 4000 viewers consistently. Stephano has over 9000 consistently. Polt has like 3000 consistently. Point?
@IM_Ragnarok: T_T I'm ruined, so I'll just study for the college extrance exams.
@IM_RagnaroK: T_T so painful
did he get raped or something? Oh god....
on a serious note: I was hoping for something that would boost NA and EU sc2 but as it is right now, whats stopping Code A and code B do go and dominate the EU/NA scene? Players like EffOrt Byun Sniper (whos in code A now and therefor wont be able to compete in WCS I know...) hell even Noblesse could prob be like "sup NA Ima win everything now" and then we still have players like YongHwa HerO Avenge Killer and Ryung...
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
"Faceless" is just your opinion. Watching Demuslim play 2v2s and 4v4s and losing to random players on NA ladder seems less appealing to me than Apocalypse grinding game after game in KR master's league.
"Faceless" isn't just his opinion. Viewership numbers have historically plummeted for Korean/Korean games when compared to Foreigner/Foreigner or Foreigner/Korean games. Give us a tournament where the Top 8 is Korean (and obviously isn't GSL/Proleague) and viewer numbers plummet.
I mean, look at the streams on the side. Just a few hours ago Demuslim had how many thousands of viewers? Liquid'Hero had 600 max.
And even right now, midnight Central Standard Time, Suppy as 1069 viewers, Catz has 501, Leiya 1128, and then Cella with 333 and Hwangsin at 203.
And that spread, no matter how you want to twist it, has been typical from the start. The numbers don't back you up man, sorry. WCS is literally tying its own noose by not enforcing residency as a requirement for the region lock. WCS NA isn't WCS NA if, you know, there aren't any North Americans playing in it.
Umm MLG? Top 8 was all Korean and it had way higher viewers than the ro32. Personal stream viewers aren't that relevant because very very few top Koreans stream while pretty much every top foreigner streams. Mostly it's just the Code B Koreans and Koreans on foreign teams. If Nestea/MVP/Parting/Life streamed consistently they would get more numbers than anyone besides like Grubby and Stephano maybe.
And that was based off of HOTS hype. Everyone said "Wow, those numbers. Just imagine if Ret had managed to stick around longer."
Even in a world where MLG kept a huge audience with the ro8, everyone still found it sensible to say "But a foreigner would have made numbers better." I think that alone wins the argument for me.
If it was just because of HotS hype then why didn't the initial foreigner vs korean or foreigner vs foreigner matches get more viewers than the Korean vs Korean matches. The idea that viewer numbers suffer because of foreigners being eliminated is ridiculously unfounded. There has never actually been a sudden drop in viewers when the final foreigner dies. Viewers almost always peak with the finals of any tournament regardless of how foreigners do.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
"Faceless" is just your opinion. Watching Demuslim play 2v2s and 4v4s and losing to random players on NA ladder seems less appealing to me than Apocalypse grinding game after game in KR master's league.
"Faceless" isn't just his opinion. Viewership numbers have historically plummeted for Korean/Korean games when compared to Foreigner/Foreigner or Foreigner/Korean games. Give us a tournament where the Top 8 is Korean (and obviously isn't GSL/Proleague) and viewer numbers plummet.
I mean, look at the streams on the side. Just a few hours ago Demuslim had how many thousands of viewers? Liquid'Hero had 600 max.
And even right now, midnight Central Standard Time, Suppy as 1069 viewers, Catz has 501, Leiya 1128, and then Cella with 333 and Hwangsin at 203.
And that spread, no matter how you want to twist it, has been typical from the start. The numbers don't back you up man, sorry. WCS is literally tying its own noose by not enforcing residency as a requirement for the region lock. WCS NA isn't WCS NA if, you know, there aren't any North Americans playing in it.
Umm MLG? Top 8 was all Korean and it had way higher viewers than the ro32. Personal stream viewers aren't that relevant because very very few top Koreans stream while pretty much every top foreigner streams. Mostly it's just the Code B Koreans and Koreans on foreign teams. If Nestea/MVP/Parting/Life streamed consistently they would get more numbers than anyone besides like Grubby and Stephano maybe.
And that was based off of HOTS hype. Everyone said "Wow, those numbers. Just imagine if Ret had managed to stick around longer."
Even in a world where MLG kept a huge audience with the ro8, everyone still found it sensible to say "But a foreigner would have made numbers better." I think that alone wins the argument for me.
If it was just because of HotS hype then why didn't the initial foreigner vs korean or foreigner vs foreigner matches get more viewers than the Korean vs Korean matches. The idea that viewer numbers suffer because of foreigners being eliminated is ridiculously unfounded. There has never actually been a sudden drop in viewers when the final foreigner dies. Viewers almost always peak with the finals of any tournament regardless of how foreigners do.
Viewers do have favorites. I remember that MLG where viewers dropped off after Flash and foreigners all got knocked out in earlier rounds.
On April 04 2013 14:30 NEEDZMOAR wrote: @IM_Ragnarok: T_T I'm ruined, so I'll just study for the college extrance exams.
@IM_RagnaroK: T_T so painful
did he get raped or something? Oh god....
Blizzard: Ending progamer careers since April 2, 2013.
Seriously, I hope all the progamers are all right and find a solution to this predicament...
The solution is sponsorpayd trips to lan events. Dont worry, A lot of fuss over nothing. IM-Ragnarok finally gets a chance to play for a big cup during vacation full expenses payd by LG, whats wrong with that?
No offense to SaSe, but I completely disagree with him. While its all good to be noble and try to get better at the game, given the state of eSports and what not, get money get paid.
It's not like you're getting paid a boat load of money salary wise. Imo, maximize your EV now. I don't know his background, I don't know if he has anything to fall back on should he need to, but I much prefer Stephano's approach, make a boat load of money, and if he doesn't enjoy it anymore, bail out and you have a nice chunk of change stored away from which he can draw on to do something else in life.
i like how pepole say the GSL doesn't exist anymore because it now has a different name.
also some of those tweets in OP are reinforcing my suspicion that Polt knew what was gonna happen when he made his decision tbh. not that there's anything wrong with that, and it's an amazing decision for him to make. dude's handsome as fuck too.
On April 04 2013 14:20 playa wrote: People should stop watching the Olympics because it's not the best of the best. I can't tell you how enraged I get when I watch the 100 meter dash and I see a white a guy. A white guy!?! Fuck Sweeden, give me a black guy. Always ruins the experience for me. Instead of having the best guys in the world! I'm stuck with 5 of the best and then 5 random white guys.
You know what would be the most genius solution ever!? Make Sweden a region and allow black people from other countries to choose Sweden as their country, and then we can have the 10 best guys in the world! Man, thank god for brilliant solutions like this. The Olympics will finally be worth watching and sponsors can finally feel compelled to put some money into it. I'm amazing, I work at Blizzard.
Yeah about those white guys in the 100 meters... + Show Spoiler +
Countries with better athletes get way more spots in the end, the way the system is designed in most sports in the Olympics. And it's a completely different thing. Compare it to individual pro sports like Tennis or Golf, where there are no restrictions based on nationality or residence.
On April 04 2013 14:04 Roarer wrote: Seems like things are getting better for the non- top tier Koreans. They simply have more options to gain access to the biggest tournament: play in US / EU, instead of being stuck Code A or even outside of Code A. The pressure is on the EU / NA players now, and is that a good thing? Too hard to judge.
The question though should be .... if WCS qualification process is independent from the running leagues / tournaments a better model , which deserves its own thread.
I see no reasons for any Koreans to live permanently outside of Korea.
And that's the thing, like MC said. The regions aren't even region locked - you can play all of the WCS games online apparently. Or, at least, most of them. If you can play weekend WCS NA MLG events for points, then go to the three major LANs, then you're set.
I love the quote from the first page of Incontrol wanting to "punch" anyone who didn't agree that it's a good thing. Well, MC just threw down the gauntlet and made pretty much unimpeachable points. What did he say that was legitimately untrue or manufactured?
MC is wrong in two most talked about points: "Disadvantageous conditions for Korean Players" - there is no disadvantage, they are free to play whereever they want. SC2 needs big live daily league for EU/US timezones - everything cant be in korea.
"it makes practicing in Korea for Korean tournaments itself a foolish act." unfounded - this all depends on the prize pools, amount of weekend tourneys, and the amount of koreans willing to move and if there are any proper teamhouses going up outside korea.
And his other points are not that unimpeachable either: "People not in CodeS get shafted" - well this is the only reasonably valid arguement, but the other option is to shaft the CodeS players - some might have went to a foreign event instead of focusing on their CodeA matches to get into GSL Season 2 code S.
"The football analogy" - since this is the first season and everyone can choose their region, there is no way to determine how many spots each region should get to the season final 16 tourney. Perhaps in the future the seeds can be switched around based on results of previous season.
"If Korean players go to WCS EU and WCS NA and dominate there as well, I wonder what kind of Amerian or European fan would want to watch the WCS finals." We dont know that yet - korean dominated starcraft2 tourneys sure are the most watched one right now.
... What blizzard did was not perfect, but to make a global daily league happen - all the choices seem to be the best ( or in some cases least wrong ) ones.
On April 04 2013 14:40 Schelim wrote: i like how pepole say the GSL doesn't exist anymore because it now has a different name.
The thing I don't like is, the most prestigious tournament in starcraft 2 (GSL - Code S) with the highest level play is now going to be a feeder tournament to a seasonal WCS Finals which will have an overall lower level of play. The qualifier will be harder than the actual tournament itself lol...
Overall this is a step in the right direction, there is no doubt about that.
Maybe its all in the naming that makes it feel this way I'm not entirely sure. All I know with is when all of this was announced, the GSL just felt a little less meaningful :/
I really don't see what their beef is, how does this really damage anyone in code a or code b? This is a NEW league that did not exist before, they are not being robbed of anything. There will still be MLG's and there will still be Dreamhacks that teams can send their players to. Absolutely nothing changes in terms of the current difficulty of code a or code b. If their argument is that they should be able to roll over the qualifiers in all the other nations because korean mid level players are better than american high level players then that is just absurd. First of all if you are in code b, you are not going to win the wcs anyway, even if you go and roll over the eu wcs you still get crushed by the top koreans eventually and second of all this is meant to be a global tournament, it is called WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, that always entails nations or regions competing. The olympics analogies are correct, it is like claiming that because Canada and Sweden has more skilled hockey players per capita, the Canadian and Swedish players should be able to play for Germany's national team in the olympics. Because why should a bad German player get to play over a better Canadian?
You could argue that Blizzard should have region locked the wcs divisions completely then but the downside to that would have been that you exclude all of the foreigners who are practicing in korea and all of the koreans that are in america or europe because they are on a team or because they are studying there. The solution they went with was the optimal one that creates the least obstacles.
I do believe that Koreans taking money from every foreign tournament is unfair. Yes they are better but they are better because they got a huge head start on the whole esport thing and them throwing that dominance at these scenes that are still in their infancy, killing them before they have a chance to grow into something actually competitive just hurts everyone in the end.
If those exact same koreans happened to have been born in america or europe, they would have never had the chance to take advantage of the many advantages that the korean esport scene has been able to develop by being around since broodwar, and they probably wouldn't be near as good as they are now, even if they practiced 14 hours a day.
On April 04 2013 14:04 Roarer wrote: Seems like things are getting better for the non- top tier Koreans. They simply have more options to gain access to the biggest tournament: play in US / EU, instead of being stuck Code A or even outside of Code A. The pressure is on the EU / NA players now, and is that a good thing? Too hard to judge.
The question though should be .... if WCS qualification process is independent from the running leagues / tournaments a better model , which deserves its own thread.
I see no reasons for any Koreans to live permanently outside of Korea.
And that's the thing, like MC said. The regions aren't even region locked - you can play all of the WCS games online apparently. Or, at least, most of them. If you can play weekend WCS NA MLG events for points, then go to the three major LANs, then you're set.
I love the quote from the first page of Incontrol wanting to "punch" anyone who didn't agree that it's a good thing. Well, MC just threw down the gauntlet and made pretty much unimpeachable points. What did he say that was legitimately untrue or manufactured?
And his other points are not that unimpeachable either: "People not in CodeS get shafted" - well this is the only reasonably valid arguement, but the other option is to shaft the CodeS players - some might have went to a foreign event instead of focusing on their CodeA matches to get into GSL Season 2 code S.
Or they could have made GSL and WCS Korea separate things but they would have required them to put an actual significant amount of money into E-sports. This was super lazy and cheap.
sorry im slow and lost again, can someone tell me why they would have to move to AM or EU. cant they just practice in kr and fly out to the mlgs and dreamhacks and get there points and go home like they did before?
On April 04 2013 15:18 starslayer wrote: sorry im slow and lost again, can someone tell me why they would have to move to AM or EU. cant they just practice in kr and fly out to the mlgs and dreamhacks and get there points and go home like they did before?
I think they can but the problem is playing with lag on the online parts, and then having to fly to the event itself should they make it. I think WCS pays for your ticket, but only if you live in the region where you're going to play in.
On April 04 2013 14:20 playa wrote: People should stop watching the Olympics because it's not the best of the best. I can't tell you how enraged I get when I watch the 100 meter dash and I see a white a guy. A white guy!?! Fuck Sweeden, give me a black guy. Always ruins the experience for me. Instead of having the best guys in the world! I'm stuck with 5 of the best and then 5 random white guys.
You know what would be the most genius solution ever!? Make Sweden a region and allow black people from other countries to choose Sweden as their country, and then we can have the 10 best guys in the world! Man, thank god for brilliant solutions like this. The Olympics will finally be worth watching and sponsors can finally feel compelled to put some money into it. I'm amazing, I work at Blizzard.
Yeah about those white guys in the 100 meters... + Show Spoiler +
Countries with better athletes get way more spots in the end, the way the system is designed in most sports in the Olympics. And it's a completely different thing. Compare it to individual pro sports like Tennis or Golf, where there are no restrictions based on nationality or residence.
Believe it or not but there are at least 10 countries with black people, so more times than not it does look like that. But, we've all seen international sprints where there were white people, inevitably finishing last. And I'm here to tell you, it's a HORRIBLE experience. But it would have been so much better if a black guy got 10th! Sarcasm. Anything country/continent based is never going to have the absolute best of the best, but no one has ever given a fuck about it.
The best athlete/player is always going to win, and if you ruin a national scene just to guarantee a black guy gets 10th, you're a clown. It's no different for "white guys" and Koreans in SC 2. If you want this format, call the regions something else. I've never been to Korea but I could be playing in essentially the Korean nationals. It's dumb.
I'm still curious as to where were all of these people back in BW that hated WCG and TSL. You know teamliquid ran tournaments that excluded Koreans and all of the foreigners loved it? The non Koreans were 100x worse in comparison to the Koreans than in SC 2. Weird right to enjoy watching people that play at a high-level but don't want to play 14 hours a day. O no, they could be better, but since they are around the same level, they still produce close/interesting games.
Blizzard must be hiring PR people by the dozen. Warning, the below video may be disturbing to those that can only palate the best of the best. It's an event in Paris where someone from France, not black, was allowed to delegitimize the event and sully it.
On April 04 2013 15:18 starslayer wrote: sorry im slow and lost again, can someone tell me why they would have to move to AM or EU. cant they just practice in kr and fly out to the mlgs and dreamhacks and get there points and go home like they did before?
I think they can but the problem is playing with lag on the online parts, and then having to fly to the event itself should they make it. I think WCS pays for your ticket, but only if you live in the region where you're going to play in.
This is correct. In order to discourage people from moving around they said they wont pay flight for players that are playing from another region (ie. they wont pay your flights/hotels if you move from korea to america)
Also, i think its good thing for the viewers that we can have some koreans in btoh EU and AM because for many people it adds in the interest for the korean vs foreigner match. A few of these would spice up the tournament because the koreans would probably be the favorites in most situations.
Ofcourse MC is right about code B palyers getting shafted. For fucks sake we have Mvp AND Nestea AND Seed not playing in WCS this season. wtf right? There should be some second chance qualifier for these guys. (maybe have a tournament for 1 season finals spot for people not in code S?)
On April 04 2013 15:18 starslayer wrote: sorry im slow and lost again, can someone tell me why they would have to move to AM or EU. cant they just practice in kr and fly out to the mlgs and dreamhacks and get there points and go home like they did before?
If they want to be in the EU/NA version of CodeS/CodeA, they likely will have to move. Most of the money will be handed out in Ro16 LAN. The Ro16 will likely not be a weekend affair, so in addition to the visa's, intercontinental plane tickets, and the usual 2-day hotel thing - its going to be 1 or 2 weeks of living costs ( unless you have a friend living there ). Might not be worth it.
edit: Not to mention, once you get out of ro32 - you might only have a week to prepare the flights, book the hotels - get a visa and everything. Im not sure if it's even possible.
edit2: Actually this might quite a problem for people who want to participate in NA league outside from Canada/NA. Or people outside Shengen Area in european league.
On April 04 2013 15:10 VanGarde wrote: I really don't see what their beef is, how does this really damage anyone in code a or code b? This is a NEW league that did not exist before, they are not being robbed of anything.
On April 04 2013 15:37 Type|NarutO wrote: Only good for me, less foreign players, more Koreans to qualify over EU/NA. Naniwa and SaSe both with a good mentality.
Same here, either step up EU/NA or watch from the sidelines.
Well, America and Jamaica are separate countries. If 3 of the top 8 were NA and 3 Korean and 2 EU we would be in a golden age of SC2 and could get near the explosion of growth the NBA sees. Seriously. If Chinese guy was in there he would be Chinese and we would say okay, China won the Gold Medal. Not Asian kid won gold medal. If Sweden uses a black guy and he wins we will say Sweden won not black people won.
Thing is Koreans aren't playing ball like that, NA isn't winning from this. Koreans will win, get their money and go back home rich as usual. USA will continue to be a 'third world' SC2 nation if you will, getting no benefit from hosting a tournament as usual. So Koreans take all of our money and retain fanboys like you guys and USA players who *never win* get no fanboys as there is nothing to be a fan OF. People aren't a fan of races they are a fan of winners.
For example, in EU they are able to have plenty of EU only tournaments, and were protected from Korea because they were a bit protectionist and didn't fly all expenses paid every last Korean and its fucking expensive to fly there and look at their scene today its crazy. Best crowds ever!
Its a rich get richer problem. Top 7 KR 2013. 2012 14 of 15 KR. All the rest EU. It goes on. But you guys hate that NA finally gets a shot at SOME cash. Millions of bucks go to KR but thats still not enough you got to root for them to get the rest. Its like "the starving man didn't beat the athlete in a race someone make sure that starving man gets no bread or its wrong!"
All NA wants is a little glory, but winhounds like Korean fanboys only see "best should advance" if given a chance to not be stomped on by superior players... maybe NA actually IS able to be good by LotV, shows good games, gets actual fans. It has happened before. Scarlett now competes in KR. First Idra in 2010. Then Huk in 2011. Now Scarlett in 2012. They proved that we can compete.
BTW If an Asian USA born player wins in NA I will be in his bandwagon. Fuck race. Go Suppy!
And this whole thing about viewership not lowering?
"I want to stop watching this tournament I sunk 20 hours into because no White People" -- said no one ever except for Cletus Grand Dragon of the KKK
However do you see growth? I mean 110k... its good. However we were getting that same number in 2011. There wasn't any growth. Same nerds are watching for Koreans which most people if they WERE racist would have shut this off long ago. Maybe some of the LoL huge growth are frustrated foreigners who love watching the EU and NA teams kick ass and got tired of the SC2 stuff.
I don't know if having NA players lifting a trophy brings in more viewers. We should try to find out though.
On April 04 2013 15:35 mrRoflpwn wrote: This is correct. In order to discourage people from moving around they said they wont pay flight for players that are playing from another region (ie. they wont pay your flights/hotels if you move from korea to america)
Also, i think its good thing for the viewers that we can have some koreans in btoh EU and AM because for many people it adds in the interest for the korean vs foreigner match. A few of these would spice up the tournament because the koreans would probably be the favorites in most situations.
Bullshit. LG_IM will send all there players to the different leagues. There sponsors will pay all travellingexpences for sure as LG wants to be well represented in the WCS, the superbowl of e-sports! Everyone that is whining is wrong. Lesser code B players will finally have a chance to win something on a stage with some real prizemoney. Every mediocre code B or lower player including nestea and MVP (im sorry but they are in code B atm and thus mediocre last season) will benefit, as they still have a shot at a big prize and alot of fame.
Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Well, MC just threw down the gauntlet and made pretty much unimpeachable points.
There's at least three uncertainties I can think of in MC's points. We (and I assume MC and the other Korean players), don't know exactly how the NA/EU qualifiers, the Ro16+ match schedules, and the WCS point system work. Until those are known, how would a Korean player judge when it's worth it to switch regions?
Speculation ahead! Starting with what we've been told...
NA/EU qualifiers
The GSL's Code-A/Code-S/Up/Down format will be the base format for all the regions(1)
Basically, NA and EU are each getting their own GSL. Which means MGL and ESL each have to create a Code A (40 spots) and Code S (32 spots) (3). Here is the info we have on the qualifiers:
Players in North America and Europe will be invited to kick off Season 1 based upon their performances in 2012 across all leagues. Open qualifiers will also be held to determine the final player list. Additionally, the top 200 Grand Masters players on the Starcraft II Ladder will be invited to join the initial qualifiers.(2, emphasis added)
Key points in that quote I see are:
Some players in North America and Europe (and possibly Koreans living abroad, like Polt) will get into the NA/EU GSLs based on 2012 performance. They might not even have to play in the qualifier tournament (i.e. they could be slotted into NA/EU Code S and Code A directly*).
The remaining slots (possibly Code A only**) will be determined via open qualifier.
Grandmaster seeds (or, how open is this qualifier anyway?)
Now, if you were Blizzard/MLG/ESL, would you seed Koreans directly into your NA/EU Code S for the first season? Would you force the invited foreigners to play against Koreans for those initial Code S (and possibly some Code A) spots? Open question.
If only foreigners (and Polt? ) get Code S seeds, and Code A doesn't give points, then Code B Koreans are effectively out of the main WCS season 1 everywhere, not just in Korea. That's not a total loss to a Korean currently in Code B: presumably they'd rather aim for an easy shot at 2 Code S's in NA/EU than one difficult one in KR. If you're already in Korean Code A, however, you still have a shot at being in Code S for two seasons in a row. Without the possible logistical headaches of...
NA/EU Ro16+ Match Schedules In GSL it's typical to have the Ro16 through the finals played over several weeks. If NA/EU Code S copy that part of the format, then Koreans will have to fly out up to four week(end)s in a row to play. They may have to choose between staying away from their team house for up to a month, or paying for flights over and over. And unlike weekend tournaments, they only get paid on their final trip. Possibly worth it, but is it sustainable?
Ideally Koreans that come to NA/EU would join (or better, start) team houses in NA/EU. Then everybody wins.
The Point System We don't know how the entire point system works in the first place. They could even add a bonus for playing in your nation of citizenship's region if the incentive is needed.
*Good luck to non-KR/EU/NA players Moonglade, Sen, et al. Hope they make it through an open bracket! **In the event that NA/EU Code A becomes filled with Koreans at the start of season 2, falling into it will be like falling bloodied into a pool of sharks for the initially seeded Code S foreigners.
Hello, sorry if this has been answered else where. I know that the round of 32 is played online in America and Europe and that after that the games will be played live but what I would like to know is if the round of 16 and up will all be played in on event(likely a weekend tournament) or if they will be spread out like the GSL format? It would be far more expensive to do it the second way because you would have to fly players in and out for each round but it would also be much more exciting.
I really do not get why there is a need to "preserve" "foreigners" in WCS by artificially creating the various divisions, with the Korean one being most likely a death zone.
Why do people want to see "white dudes" so much? Is it because they are non-asian? Is that not just down right discriminatory?
Koreans are not natrually borned as elite progamers with superior genetics (unlike sports where African origins tend to have stronger muscles I believe). They are good at it because they practice hard and sacrificed a lot behind the scenes. Why should those people be penalized by being part of a more difficult group?
Sure, the Koreans can participate in the NA/EU divisions, but that forces them to leave their home... it is not something suitable for everyone, or even financially possible for the not-as-well-off Korean teams. Leaving to another country especially when you struggle with the basics of the local tongue is quite a challenging task (thankfully most people here are fluent in English which can be used to limited degrees around the world, but good luck trying to find someone who knows Korean outside of Korea...).
Instead of giving the "foreigners" the advantage of choosing relatively easy divisions, those who wish to see their foreign representatives represent their region should encourage them to get even better.
This all looks a bit weird. In my opinion the biggest strength of the sc2 eSports scene was always that the tournaments were able to run by themselves financially. Unlike Lol or Dota where Riot and Valve "created" the scene.
And now Blizzard is throwing a lot of money in a system that 98% of the (casual) viewers will never understand. I mean there are three Code A/S and you receive some points and and and....
Holy shit people. This is really simple...It's like an Olympics for SC2. Its a WORLD championship. They want to see the best representatives from all around the world showcased. Not only that, theres a good chance that placing high in the points in the NA or EU region wont even guarentee you a spot in the WCS World Finals.
The Koreans are complaining because they used the exsisting GSL placements as the beginning seeds for WCS KR. EU and NA are getting seeded in too...then with an open qualifyer to fill the remaining spots. Why are EU and NA getting this 'clean start'? Because EU and NA didnt have something like GSL to base their seeds off of! Im more than sure that if there was an EU and NA GSL-style tournament exsisting already, they would've integrated into WCS the same way as they did to the GSL in Korea.
It's almost sad that the main thing everyone is squabbling about after the announcement of a unified world-wide tournament series is "We want the best shot at the money as possible! We think those other guys in a different region are shit, why are we stuck here!". When I bet if they didn't announce the Prize Pool amount, or if it was the same as the old WCS, no one would've given two shits. Just like no one really cared about the last WCS KR...
On April 04 2013 16:24 USvBleakill wrote: This all looks a bit weird. In my opinion the biggest strength of the sc2 eSports scene was always that the tournaments were able to run by themselves financially. Unlike Lol or Dota where Riot and Valve "created" the scene.
And now Blizzard is throwing a lot of money in a system that 98% of the (casual) viewers will never understand. I mean there are three Code A/S and you receive some points and and and....
Good point. Hopefully it wil be Code KR-S, Code NA-S and Code EU-S
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
On April 04 2013 16:11 Hikari wrote: I really do not get why there is a need to "preserve" "foreigners" in WCS by artificially creating the various divisions, with the Korean one being most likely a death zone.
Why do people want to see "white dudes" so much? Is it because they are non-asian? Is that not just down right discriminatory?
Koreans are not natrually borned as elite progamers with superior genetics (unlike sports where African origins tend to have stronger muscles I believe). They are good at it because they practice hard and sacrificed a lot behind the scenes. Why should those people be penalized by being part of a more difficult group?
Sure, the Koreans can participate in the NA/EU divisions, but that forces them to leave their home... it is not something suitable for everyone, or even financially possible for the not-as-well-off Korean teams. Leaving to another country especially when you struggle with the basics of the local tongue is quite a challenging task (thankfully most people here are fluent in English which can be used to limited degrees around the world, but good luck trying to find someone who knows Korean outside of Korea...).
Instead of giving the "foreigners" the advantage of choosing relatively easy divisions, those who wish to see their foreign representatives represent their region should encourage them to get even better.
This is an attempt to provide incentive for the global skill level to improve, so that players no longer have to move to Korea and train there if they want to be at the top level of competition. It's pretty ambitious, and we'll have to see if it pans out. It's up to Western players/teams to step it up and really get serious about training, though.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
From another thread; the only thing that does punish Koreans right now is that the current Code S season is taken as qualifier instead of a new start but other than that;
On April 03 2013 16:33 Type|NarutO wrote:
Isn't it special treatment when you can freely pick the server and pick the server you have latency with and get a workaround from Blizzard to fix it for you? If they want to play EU/NA I think they should also move. Ofcourse your point being they shouldn't leave their superior training-region, but thats a contradictory argument. If they have superior training-region and setup, they are also able to play on a higher level which would lead them into being able to qualify through the Korean qualifiers. Picking the easier way out for them, they gain advantage over the EU/NA players that don't have such chances to practice.
I think if you want one advantage, you have to give up the other.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
He (not Mirco, the guy he's quoting) also forgot to mention the almost $1000 price tag for flying each person and the cost of establishing a new house in said countries. Which considering not every player from a given team would want to play in the same region would mean up to 3 'team houses'. On top of that you have all of the legal bullshit to manage; visa's, passports, etc.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
On April 04 2013 16:11 Hikari wrote: I really do not get why there is a need to "preserve" "foreigners" in WCS by artificially creating the various divisions, with the Korean one being most likely a death zone.
Why do people want to see "white dudes" so much? Is it because they are non-asian? Is that not just down right discriminatory?
Koreans are not natrually borned as elite progamers with superior genetics (unlike sports where African origins tend to have stronger muscles I believe). They are good at it because they practice hard and sacrificed a lot behind the scenes. Why should those people be penalized by being part of a more difficult group?
Sure, the Koreans can participate in the NA/EU divisions, but that forces them to leave their home... it is not something suitable for everyone, or even financially possible for the not-as-well-off Korean teams. Leaving to another country especially when you struggle with the basics of the local tongue is quite a challenging task (thankfully most people here are fluent in English which can be used to limited degrees around the world, but good luck trying to find someone who knows Korean outside of Korea...).
Instead of giving the "foreigners" the advantage of choosing relatively easy divisions, those who wish to see their foreign representatives represent their region should encourage them to get even better.
This is an attempt to provide incentive for the global skill level to improve, so that players no longer have to move to Korea and train there if they want to be at the top level of competition. It's pretty ambitious, and we'll have to see if it pans out. It's up to Western players/teams to step it up and really get serious about training, though.
Global play already encourage that, you do not even need to get your hands onto a Kr account to practice on the Kr ladder: which is what a lot of korean progamers do.
Outside of that, a strict training schedule littered with proper (but not excessive) amounts of rest and guidance offered by Korean team houses is not something the foreign scene cannot follow - by now there should be no 'secret' to the Korean's success.
//
I guess it depends on how people look at a "world championship". Do people want to see the best progamers in the world with sustaining results play in a championship, or do people want to see "local" delegates from each division represent and play even though they may not be the "n'th best in the world".
From past results and experiences, people want to see the former (even if it is littered with Koreans plus 2-3 well known foreigners), this can be seen in various "which match do you want to see" polls in past tournaments.
I am afraid the GSL might suffer the loss of potential players if they decide to take part in NA/EU WCS qualifiers over the GSL.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
I'm with you dude. But the reality is, most of the viewers/consumers of SC2 are non-Koreans (no I don't have hard facts on that but use common sense). Whether it's discriminatory or not doesn't affect the fact that viewership increases when popular foreigners are competing. It is what it is: not fair, but necessary to avoid the situation where less and less people tune in leading to smaller $$, less opportunities, etc., etc.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
On April 04 2013 16:11 Hikari wrote: I really do not get why there is a need to "preserve" "foreigners" in WCS by artificially creating the various divisions, with the Korean one being most likely a death zone.
Why do people want to see "white dudes" so much? Is it because they are non-asian? Is that not just down right discriminatory?
Koreans are not natrually borned as elite progamers with superior genetics (unlike sports where African origins tend to have stronger muscles I believe). They are good at it because they practice hard and sacrificed a lot behind the scenes. Why should those people be penalized by being part of a more difficult group?
Sure, the Koreans can participate in the NA/EU divisions, but that forces them to leave their home... it is not something suitable for everyone, or even financially possible for the not-as-well-off Korean teams. Leaving to another country especially when you struggle with the basics of the local tongue is quite a challenging task (thankfully most people here are fluent in English which can be used to limited degrees around the world, but good luck trying to find someone who knows Korean outside of Korea...).
Instead of giving the "foreigners" the advantage of choosing relatively easy divisions, those who wish to see their foreign representatives represent their region should encourage them to get even better.
This is an attempt to provide incentive for the global skill level to improve, so that players no longer have to move to Korea and train there if they want to be at the top level of competition. It's pretty ambitious, and we'll have to see if it pans out. It's up to Western players/teams to step it up and really get serious about training, though.
Global play already encourage that, you do not even need to get your hands onto a Kr account to practice on the Kr ladder: which is what a lot of korean progamers do.
Outside of that, a strict training schedule littered with proper (but not excessive) amounts of rest and guidance offered by Korean team houses is not something the foreign scene cannot follow - by now there should be no 'secret' to the Korean's success.
//
I guess it depends on how people look at a "world championship". Do people want to see the best progamers in the world with sustaining results play in a championship, or do people want to see "local" delegates from each division represent and play even though they may not be the "n'th best in the world".
From past results and experiences, people want to see the former (even if it is littered with Koreans plus 2-3 well known foreigners), this can be seen in various "which match do you want to see" polls in past tournaments.
I am afraid the GSL might suffer the loss of potential players if they decide to take part in NA/EU WCS qualifiers over the GSL.
Bolded important part.
This has yet to happen outside of Korea. I'm hoping a big, annual, global tournament like this where Western players will regularly be going up against Koreans provides the incentive for this to finally happen. Yes, there have been team houses, but they have not been up to the training quality of the best Korean team houses (looking at KeSPA team houses here as the prime example)
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
This.
Any Code A/B will thrash the hell out of any foreigners. No speaking of Korean's pride but the hard truth.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
err.. they are. Im pretty damn sure players like CjHydra, Seed, Cj hero and jjakji are still better than foreigners who get seeded into Code A and get knocked out in the first round. Dont give lame excuses like "oh but they are korean style toruneys which foreiners arent used to! " because koreans who go to foreign tourneys perform extremely well
edit: even artosis stated on sotg(about a year and half ago i think) that there are plenty of players in code bwho could potentially win Code S.
On April 04 2013 16:11 Hikari wrote: I really do not get why there is a need to "preserve" "foreigners" in WCS by artificially creating the various divisions, with the Korean one being most likely a death zone.
Why do people want to see "white dudes" so much? Is it because they are non-asian? Is that not just down right discriminatory?
Koreans are not natrually borned as elite progamers with superior genetics (unlike sports where African origins tend to have stronger muscles I believe). They are good at it because they practice hard and sacrificed a lot behind the scenes. Why should those people be penalized by being part of a more difficult group?
Sure, the Koreans can participate in the NA/EU divisions, but that forces them to leave their home... it is not something suitable for everyone, or even financially possible for the not-as-well-off Korean teams. Leaving to another country especially when you struggle with the basics of the local tongue is quite a challenging task (thankfully most people here are fluent in English which can be used to limited degrees around the world, but good luck trying to find someone who knows Korean outside of Korea...).
Instead of giving the "foreigners" the advantage of choosing relatively easy divisions, those who wish to see their foreign representatives represent their region should encourage them to get even better.
Koreans have won a ton of foreign cash and fame that Blizzard clearly feels is "killing" the game to some degree.. At least a significant enough degree to merit changes such as the ones being implemented. I imagine Blizzard's main goal is to grow starcraft 2 in all regions and they have presumably done a lot of research before committing to this degree of support, monetary or otherwise. They clearly feel having a certain type of "regional discouragment" will help grow the game in every region. It will be interesting to see if this venture will work out as planned, but personally I think its worth a shot.. Especially as an attempt to save a stagnant North American competitive scene.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
A lot of the current "code b players" have proven it themselves over and over again by beating foreigners and the fact that they are in code b is prove enough.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
err.. they are. Im pretty damn sure players like CjHydra, Seed, Cj hero and jjakji are still better than foreigners who get seeded into Code A and get knocked out in the first round. Dont give lame excuses like "oh but they are korean style toruneys which foreiners arent used to! " because koreans who go to foreign tourneys perform extremely well
edit: even artosis stated on sotg(about a year and half ago i think) that there are plenty of players in code bwho could potentially win Code S.
한국의 vs 한국의 will always be hard and tough. 한국의 vs foreigners ez anytime.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
Whoah whoah whoah. Are you talking about a specific country here, or Europe and NA in general? Because that's one of the most ignorant and borderline-retarded generalizations I've read in a while.
Now more on the topic at hand, I think MC is right, this seems to be a terrible format. Blizzard must've gotten the whole "we want a more focused storyline we can follow" idea that was brought up in the oversaturation period, which is great, but they way they're trying to implement a solution looks like it'll backfire pretty hard. I also think it's silly that they decided to use both GOM and OGN for Korea (this isn't the silly part) while only choosing MLG to do the NA regionals. Obviously, NASL have been putting out quality online content for a while now, one could even say it's their bread and butter, it's what they're known for and best at. So instead of Blizzard utilizing this in their favour and bringing the scene even closer together, they decide to directly compete with one of their major tournament organizers. DreamHack should be fine, there's still Counter-Strike and that godly atmosphere for their SC2 finals so it won't hurt them that much that they have to compete with ESL.
I don't know what Blizzard's thinking with this, but as it stands I don't see this working out as planned, not by a long shot.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
You are wrong.
FYI, MVP, MC dropped to code B before. Does that make them not good? 한국의 players all strong. Sometimes you win sometime you lose. Just like Life. Before MVP, Nestea MC era he is nothing and unheard of.
That doesn't make any Code A/B players no good. In fact, some are good but no luck during actual qualifier day.
Again, put them (those you called Code A/B players weak who can't get past any of their own countrymen) in ANY foreigners event, they will own you.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
You point out that those Korean B-Teamers don't need to be at the WCS World Finals because they have no chance in winning anyways. He is saying that even those Code B Koreans are far superior to any NA/EU player and are worthy of the grand finals. With the decision to make the current Code S the qualifiers, you take all chances from them to even proof they could potentially be there.
Also; if the Code B Koreans don't deserve to be there / no need for them to be there because they cannot win against the Code S Koreans anyway, why do you need EU/NA players there? Its not even about only caring for the Korean scene, hell I am really a supporter of Korea, but really thats because I care for the best of the best. Bring in a foreigner that is as good as them and I'll happily cheer for him, thats the point everyone seems to not understand when people like Korean play.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
That Koreans still utterly dominate... what's your point exactly?
How does OSL work? Would the non-Code S players be able to at least participate in that season of WCS (although I guess they wouldn't stand a chance at getting enough points to be significant if they only participate in one season)
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
You point out that those Korean B-Teamers don't need to be at the WCS World Finals because they have no chance in winning anyways. He is saying that even those Code B Koreans are far superior to any NA/EU player and are worthy of the grand finals. With the decision to make the current Code S the qualifiers, you take all chances from them to even proof they could potentially be there.
Also; if the Code B Koreans don't deserve to be there / no need for them to be there because they cannot win against the Code S Koreans anyway, why do you need EU/NA players there?
Im pointing out that a lot of the perceived 'injustice' to koreans who dont happen to be in Code S right at this very moment, is ridiculous. And that claiming that because you can pick out non-code s koreans that are better than most EU/NA players proves this injustice is also ridiculous. And all of this is stemming from the fact that Blizzard threw out a big prize pool number.
Is it really that scandalous that a new Regional series, gave out its initial regional seeds, based on the results of the last largest tournament held in that region? They didnt seed current Code S players directly into the WCS World Finals.
Furthermore, claiming that players from NA/EU shouldn't get their own region specific qualifiers because theres some players in the other region that can beat them is silly. From the announcements themselves, they even said that for the EU and NA tournaments, they are going to be seeding the top 32 players from 2012 tournament results. I'll say it again. If there was a large, region based tournament, like GSL, in NA and EU, they probably would've used the top 32 finishers in those, from their respective regions.
Koreans will probably sweep WCS World Finals. PLUS!...They even said, with teh bonus points available from MLG, DH, IEM, and other tournaments, theres a good chance, Koreans could sweep ALL spots in the WORLD finals anyway.
On April 04 2013 16:11 Hikari wrote: I really do not get why there is a need to "preserve" "foreigners" in WCS by artificially creating the various divisions, with the Korean one being most likely a death zone.
Why do people want to see "white dudes" so much? Is it because they are non-asian? Is that not just down right discriminatory?
Koreans are not natrually borned as elite progamers with superior genetics (unlike sports where African origins tend to have stronger muscles I believe). They are good at it because they practice hard and sacrificed a lot behind the scenes. Why should those people be penalized by being part of a more difficult group?
Sure, the Koreans can participate in the NA/EU divisions, but that forces them to leave their home... it is not something suitable for everyone, or even financially possible for the not-as-well-off Korean teams. Leaving to another country especially when you struggle with the basics of the local tongue is quite a challenging task (thankfully most people here are fluent in English which can be used to limited degrees around the world, but good luck trying to find someone who knows Korean outside of Korea...).
Instead of giving the "foreigners" the advantage of choosing relatively easy divisions, those who wish to see their foreign representatives represent their region should encourage them to get even better.
Koreans have won a ton of foreign cash and fame that Blizzard clearly feels is "killing" the game to some degree.. At least a significant enough degree to merit changes such as the ones being implemented. I imagine Blizzard's main goal is to grow starcraft 2 in all regions and they have presumably done a lot of research before committing to this degree of support, monetary or otherwise. They clearly feel having a certain type of "regional discouragment" will help grow the game in every region. It will be interesting to see if this venture will work out as planned, but personally I think its worth a shot.. Especially as an attempt to save a stagnant North American competitive scene.
Then making yet another top heavy "global" tournament imo is not the solution. Smaller cups (common among european scene), team leagues (where the top x players does not keep the majority of the prize pool as the cash can be spread among the team), invitational cups, etc might be better off in growing the scene. But then... last I checked, the Korean teams and players are the ones who are financially struggling (if your team isn't LG-IM), not the well oiled foreign teams.
A lot of current sc2 powerhouses are once upon a time team B'ers or even new comers. So its not like it is impossible for foreigners to catch up. Foreign gamers seem to be stuck in this downward spiral of:
perform poorly -> less incentive -> less practice -> perform poorly
I think being a foreigner right now has a lot of advantages: it is easy to establish a fan base if you demonstrate good performance against the Koreans ("the new foreigner hope!" what an honor to shoulder the hopes and dreams of so many people in the world!"): that enough should be a good motivational boost.
On April 04 2013 16:11 Hikari wrote: I really do not get why there is a need to "preserve" "foreigners" in WCS by artificially creating the various divisions, with the Korean one being most likely a death zone.
Why do people want to see "white dudes" so much? Is it because they are non-asian? Is that not just down right discriminatory?
Koreans are not natrually borned as elite progamers with superior genetics (unlike sports where African origins tend to have stronger muscles I believe). They are good at it because they practice hard and sacrificed a lot behind the scenes. Why should those people be penalized by being part of a more difficult group?
Sure, the Koreans can participate in the NA/EU divisions, but that forces them to leave their home... it is not something suitable for everyone, or even financially possible for the not-as-well-off Korean teams. Leaving to another country especially when you struggle with the basics of the local tongue is quite a challenging task (thankfully most people here are fluent in English which can be used to limited degrees around the world, but good luck trying to find someone who knows Korean outside of Korea...).
Instead of giving the "foreigners" the advantage of choosing relatively easy divisions, those who wish to see their foreign representatives represent their region should encourage them to get even better.
Koreans have won a ton of foreign cash and fame that Blizzard clearly feels is "killing" the game to some degree.. At least a significant enough degree to merit changes such as the ones being implemented. I imagine Blizzard's main goal is to grow starcraft 2 in all regions and they have presumably done a lot of research before committing to this degree of support, monetary or otherwise. They clearly feel having a certain type of "regional discouragment" will help grow the game in every region. It will be interesting to see if this venture will work out as planned, but personally I think its worth a shot.. Especially as an attempt to save a stagnant North American competitive scene.
Then making yet another top heavy "global" tournament imo is not the solution. Smaller cups (common among european scene), team leagues (where the top x players does not keep the majority of the prize pool as the cash can be spread among the team), invitational cups, etc might be better off in growing the scene. But then... last I checked, the Korean teams and players are the ones who are financially struggling (if your team isn't LG-IM), not the well oiled foreign teams.
A lot of current sc2 powerhouses are once upon a time team B'ers or even new comers. So its not like it is impossible for foreigners to catch up. Foreign gamers seem to be stuck in this downward spiral of:
perform poorly -> less incentive -> less practice -> perform poorly
I think being a foreigner right now has a lot of advantages: it is easy to establish a fan base if you demonstrate good performance against the Koreans ("the new foreigner hope!" what an honor to shoulder the hopes and dreams of so many people in the world!"): that enough should be a good motivational boost.
Every time i see "the new foreigner hope" coming from a fan base i ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ!!
On April 04 2013 17:15 Kim Hyuna wrote: Sorry to say but sometimes i think American's speak without using their brain.
Not bashing region or targeting specifically on them but sometimes or even in real life those i meet are BM and speak without using their brain.
Make them real chobo.
Sorry to say but sometimes I think that non-Americans speak without using their brain.
Not bashing region or targeting specific people, but sometimes, even in real life, those I meet are BM and speak before thinking.
you see? real chobo.
all bm. same as NA servers all bm but no skill.
gg try harder next time ^^
Or how about you don't dismiss someone who has a different opinion as yours, as less intelligent, merely because they were born in a different place than you were.
This degenerated into a koreans/best vs. foreigners/suck rather quickly...
To clarify, the issue at hand is more about the lack of WCS Asia representation outside of the current GSL format. There should be more than one avenue into the WCS than the one current tournament. Blizzard should have open bracket bi-weekly tours with a 5k or so USD cash prize in which the person with the most points get one (or two) of the five spots of that season. Solves the problem...
PS. Whatever happened to competing for the competitions sake and love of the game? In that regard, I salute both Sase and Naniwa!
On April 04 2013 17:01 mongmong wrote: edit: even artosis stated on sotg(about a year and half ago i think) that there are plenty of players in code bwho could potentially win Code S.
Definitely true; we've even seen it happen a few times.
I remember when DRG had that interview on TL way back when he was still in Code B (Letters from Korea or something?). I think that's when they were discussing him on SotG and Idra even said he was legit. This was all back before he finally made it in the GSTL, then GSL proper to show everyone how good he was.
Does Diamond still run the ESV weeklies? I remember you could watch those and see all sorts of future stars in that - Jjakji, Taeja, Life all made names for themselves in those weeklies before they could get out of Code B too.
So the point is: these guys all struggled mightily to get through Code B even though they were very good players. They didn't just decide one day to put all their effort into SC2 and made the leap into Code S (I guess Life sorta did with the Zenex-ST merger).
The GSL qualifiers are brutal; part of the reason you get random dark horses doing great in foreign tournaments is because people don't go to *every* foreign tournament. But that's pretty much what happens in GSL; the same cast of characters show up for *every* Code A qualifier, it's just too crowded each season and it's more of a lottery than a qualifier (like when that random master's player only beat one player to get into Code A).
On April 04 2013 17:15 Kim Hyuna wrote: Sorry to say but sometimes i think American's speak without using their brain.
Not bashing region or targeting specifically on them but sometimes or even in real life those i meet are BM and speak without using their brain.
Make them real chobo.
Sorry to say but sometimes I think that non-Americans speak without using their brain.
Not bashing region or targeting specific people, but sometimes, even in real life, those I meet are BM and speak before thinking.
you see? real chobo.
all bm. same as NA servers all bm but no skill.
gg try harder next time ^^
First off ; check your PM. Second; you should watch your tone. Even if you feel offended and disagree with a posters opinion and even if he uses stupid accusations, you shouldn't be using them. Especially because you have a very low post count and it only gets you banned. Just a headsup.
We should look at this from someone like MVP's pov. He wants to win more GSL titles but also would want to actually qualify for the WCS. He could either have gone to another region to have a better chance of making WCS or stay to try and win more GSLs but might not make WCS.
On April 04 2013 17:27 Aphasie wrote: This degenerated into a koreans/best vs. foreigners/suck rather quickly...
To clarify, the issue at hand is more about the lack of WCS Asia representation outside of the current GSL format. There should be more than one avenue into the WCS than the one current tournament. Blizzard should have open bracket bi-weekly tours with a 5k or so USD cash prize in which the person with the most points get one (or two) of the five spots of that season. Solves the problem...
PS. Whatever happened to competing for the competitions sake and love of the game? In that regard, I salute both Sase and Naniwa!
This is actually a great idea. The reason all the Korean dailies/weeklies are gone is because they weren't financially sustainable because there weren't many people willing to watch these mostly Code B/Code A players duke it out, even though it's these same tournaments that foreshadowed the ascent of TaeJa and Life. But with them being funded by Blizzard, this would no longer be an issue. Blizzard have a better tournament format, lesser known Koreans have a better shot at qualifying (at least it's there), Korean scene gets more money and a bit more exposure (since the content should be streamed for whoever's interested).
But knowing Blizzard, they'll either not implement it or wait until it's too late... ._.
he is right though, this playing overseas complete defeats the purpose of having representation of all continents. Either force nationality/living in other countries or just make it a global qualification.
On April 04 2013 17:15 Kim Hyuna wrote: Sorry to say but sometimes i think American's speak without using their brain.
Not bashing region or targeting specifically on them but sometimes or even in real life those i meet are BM and speak without using their brain.
Make them real chobo.
Sorry to say but sometimes I think that non-Americans speak without using their brain.
Not bashing region or targeting specific people, but sometimes, even in real life, those I meet are BM and speak before thinking.
you see? real chobo.
all bm. same as NA servers all bm but no skill.
gg try harder next time ^^
First off ; check your PM. Second; you should watch your tone. Even if you feel offended and disagree with a posters opinion and even if he uses stupid accusations, you shouldn't be using them. Especially because you have a very low post count and it only gets you banned. Just a headsup.
On April 04 2013 17:31 Markwerf wrote: he is right though, this playing overseas complete defeats the purpose of having representation of all continents. Either force nationality/living in other countries or just make it a global qualification.
Exactly. I want to see several stable regional leagues. The fact that they all culminate into a bigger final makes it just that much better. I really think that if NA and EU had GSL/OSL/MSL style leagues (on-going, STABLE, cut-throat) for as long as the Koreans, it would be a much more globally balanced field.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
That Koreans still utterly dominate... what's your point exactly?
He is bitter cause there is no other scene that matters except the KR one. His bitterness level is gonna over 9000 in 2013 if the slaughter of foreigners at premier tournaments continues.
OT: Scarlett Vibe Idra Major got the same amount of money as Rain Parting Hero_TL Hero_CJ from the qualifiers in 2012. I feel that money would be better spend ELSEWHERE. There is no point in pumping money in the foreign scene, the level of play will not be rising. (The difference in skill is just too huge, you cant compare sc2 to soccer anymore IMO, where are many countries around the globe who can compete in the World Cup. Sc2 has past table tennis at this point and is becoming basketball.)
They honestly never should have incoperated the GSL in the WCS. Do 1 GSL less/year but make its completely own thing. If you are code B you need to and qualify for code A and getting through to just have a chance to the WCS korea. With this system the Korean qualifiers will be harder then the main tournament.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
That Koreans still utterly dominate... what's your point exactly?
He is bitter cause there is no other scene that matters except the KR one. His bitterness level is gonna over 9000 in 2013 if the slaughter of foreigners at premier tournaments continues.
OT: Scarlett Vibe Idra Major got the same amount of money as Rain Parting Hero_TL Hero_CJ from the qualifiers in 2012. I feel that money would be better spend ELSEWHERE. There is no point in pumping money in the foreign scene, the level of play will not be rising. (The difference in skill is just too huge, you cant compare sc2 to soccer anymore IMO, where are many countries around the globe who can compete in the World Cup. Sc2 has past table tennis at this point and is becoming basketball.)
Uh, not really...I watch GSL just as much as I watch other leagues. Im not anti-korean, or anything silly.
I just want NA and EU to have a stable regional league, much like Korea has. I think that if that happens, the quality and quantity of players from those regions will rise, and the global scene will be better for it.
lol.. this is great at giving other regions a shot at the money. i get that koreans are the best but lets see the best of korea vs the rest of the regions instead of koreans just stomping.
On April 04 2013 12:58 lichter wrote: Like I've said, I only care about Korean leagues so I am still on the fence (leaning towards upset) about WCS. I couldn't care less about NA/EU.
Agreed. Either we'll see top tier Koreans leave GSL to compete internationally, or we'll see top tier Koreans get shafted for WCS. The Korean WCS is going to be brutal, so that will be great to watch. But the competition afterwards, involving all three areas won't be nearly as good I feel.
I'd rather watch B teamers than NA/EU players -_-''
What I am more concerned about is players actually getting paid and having an opportunity in WCS. The only way to make it work for me is to EXPAND GSL. With how many great players there are, Code S Ro64 would still be as stacked and difficult as the Ro32 we have now. With the sponsorship money they already had and the Blizzbucks they could do it. Expand Code A as well. I think this would help solve the problem MC mentions.
With a larger Code S/A pool of players, those left in Code B will truly be B teamers, with greater incentive to play in NA/EU. A larger Code S/A, and then mass B team migration dominating NA/EU... that would be my ideal situation.
So just a bunch of faceless Korean B teamers actually winning in NA/EU, alienating two huge markets would be good?
"Faceless" is just your opinion. Watching Demuslim play 2v2s and 4v4s and losing to random players on NA ladder seems less appealing to me than Apocalypse grinding game after game in KR master's league.
"Faceless" isn't just his opinion. Viewership numbers have historically plummeted for Korean/Korean games when compared to Foreigner/Foreigner or Foreigner/Korean games. Give us a tournament where the Top 8 is Korean (and obviously isn't GSL/Proleague) and viewer numbers plummet.
I mean, look at the streams on the side. Just a few hours ago Demuslim had how many thousands of viewers? Liquid'Hero had 600 max.
And even right now, midnight Central Standard Time, Suppy as 1069 viewers, Catz has 501, Leiya 1128, and then Cella with 333 and Hwangsin at 203.
And that spread, no matter how you want to twist it, has been typical from the start. The numbers don't back you up man, sorry. WCS is literally tying its own noose by not enforcing residency as a requirement for the region lock. WCS NA isn't WCS NA if, you know, there aren't any North Americans playing in it.
Viewership numbers on streams are not the best point to make simply because people spend more of their time chatting it up with the other viewers, not caring about the games (unless streamer decides to do something like take strategy requests or something along those lines).
You see 10k people "watching" stephano or idra's stream but how many of those people actually care about the content that being provided? And what's the competition, really? Can you tell me that if LG-IM MVP or SKT.RAIN or (insert any of the current ro32 Code S players) streamed as regularly or even at all that the viewership wouldn't be drastically different for foreign streamers?
edit: MVP isn't currently Code S, but hopefully my point is still clear.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
That Koreans still utterly dominate... what's your point exactly?
He is bitter cause there is no other scene that matters except the KR one. His bitterness level is gonna over 9000 in 2013 if the slaughter of foreigners at premier tournaments continues.
OT: Scarlett Vibe Idra Major got the same amount of money as Rain Parting Hero_TL Hero_CJ from the qualifiers in 2012. I feel that money would be better spend ELSEWHERE. There is no point in pumping money in the foreign scene, the level of play will not be rising. (The difference in skill is just too huge, you cant compare sc2 to soccer anymore IMO, where are many countries around the globe who can compete in the World Cup. Sc2 has past table tennis at this point and is becoming basketball.)
You know why Major insisted on join a KR team? That is because only by playing and training with the best will improve his skill set and mechanics of Starcraft. Trust me, give him another year, he will eat sleep breath Starcraft and dominate like the rest of the KR programers.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
That Koreans still utterly dominate... what's your point exactly?
He is bitter cause there is no other scene that matters except the KR one. His bitterness level is gonna over 9000 in 2013 if the slaughter of foreigners at premier tournaments continues.
OT: Scarlett Vibe Idra Major got the same amount of money as Rain Parting Hero_TL Hero_CJ from the qualifiers in 2012. I feel that money would be better spend ELSEWHERE. There is no point in pumping money in the foreign scene, the level of play will not be rising. (The difference in skill is just too huge, you cant compare sc2 to soccer anymore IMO, where are many countries around the globe who can compete in the World Cup. Sc2 has past table tennis at this point and is becoming basketball.)
Uh, not really...I watch GSL just as much as I watch other leagues. Im not anti-korean, or anything silly.
I just want NA and EU to have a stable regional league, much like Korea has. I think that if that happens, the quality and quantity of players from those regions will rise, and the global scene will be better for it.
Then why can't they just have little pointless leagues with foreigners duking it out with eachother and getting lots of views? Why subject Koreans to the farce?
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
That Koreans still utterly dominate... what's your point exactly?
He is bitter cause there is no other scene that matters except the KR one. His bitterness level is gonna over 9000 in 2013 if the slaughter of foreigners at premier tournaments continues.
OT: Scarlett Vibe Idra Major got the same amount of money as Rain Parting Hero_TL Hero_CJ from the qualifiers in 2012. I feel that money would be better spend ELSEWHERE. There is no point in pumping money in the foreign scene, the level of play will not be rising. (The difference in skill is just too huge, you cant compare sc2 to soccer anymore IMO, where are many countries around the globe who can compete in the World Cup. Sc2 has past table tennis at this point and is becoming basketball.)
Uh, not really...I watch GSL just as much as I watch other leagues. Im not anti-korean, or anything silly.
I just want NA and EU to have a stable regional league, much like Korea has. I think that if that happens, the quality and quantity of players from those regions will rise, and the global scene will be better for it.
Then why can't they just have little pointless leagues with foreigners duking it out with eachother and getting lots of views? Why subject Koreans to the farce?
On April 04 2013 17:46 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: lol.. this is great at giving other regions a shot at the money. i get that koreans are the best but lets see the best of korea vs the rest of the regions instead of koreans just stomping.
What is the difference between those 2? The stomping will just take a bit longer.
On April 04 2013 17:27 Aphasie wrote: This degenerated into a koreans/best vs. foreigners/suck rather quickly...
To clarify, the issue at hand is more about the lack of WCS Asia representation outside of the current GSL format. There should be more than one avenue into the WCS than the one current tournament. Blizzard should have open bracket bi-weekly tours with a 5k or so USD cash prize in which the person with the most points get one (or two) of the five spots of that season. Solves the problem...
PS. Whatever happened to competing for the competitions sake and love of the game? In that regard, I salute both Sase and Naniwa!
This is actually a great idea. The reason all the Korean dailies/weeklies are gone is because they weren't financially sustainable because there weren't many people willing to watch these mostly Code B/Code A players duke it out, even though it's these same tournaments that foreshadowed the ascent of TaeJa and Life. But with them being funded by Blizzard, this would no longer be an issue. Blizzard have a better tournament format, lesser known Koreans have a better shot at qualifying (at least it's there), Korean scene gets more money and a bit more exposure (since the content should be streamed for whoever's interested).
But knowing Blizzard, they'll either not implement it or wait until it's too late... ._.
I'd hope everyone would read that post, but not many will.
It really is a good idea, people keep going on about how in NA/EU that WCS will give new/unknown players a way to establish themselves - it's the exact opposite in KR's current incarnation of WCS, it'll be the same same/similar players we've been seeing for the last year+, whilst implementing the suggestion above would allow unknowns to potentially shine(ie; Life, Taeja, Jajjkji and more from ESV's weeklys in 2011).
On April 04 2013 17:27 Aphasie wrote: This degenerated into a koreans/best vs. foreigners/suck rather quickly...
To clarify, the issue at hand is more about the lack of WCS Asia representation outside of the current GSL format. There should be more than one avenue into the WCS than the one current tournament. Blizzard should have open bracket bi-weekly tours with a 5k or so USD cash prize in which the person with the most points get one (or two) of the five spots of that season. Solves the problem...
PS. Whatever happened to competing for the competitions sake and love of the game? In that regard, I salute both Sase and Naniwa!
This is actually a great idea. The reason all the Korean dailies/weeklies are gone is because they weren't financially sustainable because there weren't many people willing to watch these mostly Code B/Code A players duke it out, even though it's these same tournaments that foreshadowed the ascent of TaeJa and Life. But with them being funded by Blizzard, this would no longer be an issue. Blizzard have a better tournament format, lesser known Koreans have a better shot at qualifying (at least it's there), Korean scene gets more money and a bit more exposure (since the content should be streamed for whoever's interested).
But knowing Blizzard, they'll either not implement it or wait until it's too late... ._.
I'd hope everyone would read that post, but not many will.
It really is a good idea, people keep going on about how in NA/EU that WCS will give new/unknown players a way to establish themselves - it's the exact opposite in KR's current incarnation of WCS, it'll be the same same/similar players we've been seeing for the last year+, whilst implementing the suggestion above would allow unknowns to potentially shine(ie; Life, Taeja, Jajjkji and more from ESV's weeklys in 2011).
Agreed, Korean Weeklies provided amazing series that deserved more attention and support from both Blizzard and from the community. It was a great way for players like Taeja and Life to fight their way to the top of their skill level and eventually break the threshold that was Code S and beyond.
Nobody is going to want to work 3x as hard in the Korean tournaments for the same prize money that the NA/EU tournaments are giving. I can't see this working out :-\
Interesting topic indeed, MC does make good points this time, i wonder how many pros in korea care about this as much as MC does, i thought most of them would be like Naniwa who doesnt give a flying fuck about who the opponent is, but i might be wrong. keep us updated OP ^^
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
Yes, Southern California and Sweden are famous for bad food and ugly women...
Thinking even deeper into this..that Korean house EG just bought and there Korean coaches for it...just turned into a BAD business idea ^_^ There is no point for it now, you could just move them all into the EG Lair in NA and sweep up the MLG/WCS shit there instead. Maybe travel to Europe as well.
Gotta love the way this is fucking the Korean scene up so badly though. Guess blizzard don't really think things through huh?
I don't get it. Before, there was no WCS. Before, Korean players who failed at Code B couldn't have played in anything besides GSTL/Proleague and foreigner events like MLG/DH/IEM etc. Now, Korean players who fail at Code B cannot play in anything besides GSTL/Proleague and foreigner events like MLG/DH/IEM etc. I fail to see the problem, to be honest.
On April 04 2013 18:40 Ammanas wrote: I don't get it. Before, there was no WCS. Before, Korean players who failed at Code B couldn't have played in anything besides GSTL/Proleague and foreigner events like MLG/DH/IEM etc. Now, Korean players who fail at Code B cannot play in anything besides GSTL/Proleague and foreigner events like MLG/DH/IEM etc. I fail to see the problem, to be honest.
There actually was WCS before (last year) and it was another possibility for Koreans that did not yet get to code S to show themselves. Now that is not possible. If you are code B, you need to get to code S first and only then you can dream about participating in WCS, or you can abandon Korean WCS and just participate in the EU/NA one.
Now considering how random SC2 sometimes is, you might be awesome player that is stuck in code B and with much less chance to break through than before. The system introduced right now makes it much less likely for new players to be able to rise up.
All in all the system is pretty shitty compared to what it could be, money that Blizzard is putting in is nice, system they came up with is shit.
On April 04 2013 17:56 MHT wrote: Polt is literally Nostradamus.
If WCS doesn't pay off, his education at UT Austin surely will.
He's the model of career assurance in e-sport really.
If e-sport continue well, he has the level to stay one of the best player in the world. He's of the very very few marketable korean to the western audience and is generally loved. And Blizzard basically gave him his yearly paycheck already.
And if e-sport doesn't work well after a few years ? " Well, I guess I go back at being of the elite student of my country ! Dammit ! "
On April 04 2013 17:56 MHT wrote: Polt is literally Nostradamus.
If WCS doesn't pay off, his education at UT Austin surely will.
He's the model of career assurance in e-sport really.
If e-sport continue well, he has the level to stay one of the best player in the world. He's of the very very few marketable korean to the western audience and is generally loved. And Blizzard basically gave him his yearly paycheck already.
And if e-sport doesn't work well after a few years ? " Well, I guess I go back at being of the elite student of my country ! Dammit ! "
You never stop learning period. Look, once you're done with your e-sports gaming and shit. That's when you can go back to school. You lose some of the best years/experience in high school surely, but you can always go back and graduate. When it comes to post secondary you will see people of all walks in life so you will still be able to get that experience.
I feel like something has to change this year rather than waiting till next years WCS
I think Korea should hold a separate WCS qualifier a weekend tournament like an MLG/IEM. It seems quite odd to have Korean qualifier a 2 month long tournament when Europe and NA and weekend tournaments and the final is going to be a weekend tournament also. A weekend tournament will give a different winner to a 2 month long tournament.
On April 04 2013 17:56 MHT wrote: Polt is literally Nostradamus.
If WCS doesn't pay off, his education at UT Austin surely will.
He's the model of career assurance in e-sport really.
If e-sport continue well, he has the level to stay one of the best player in the world. He's of the very very few marketable korean to the western audience and is generally loved. And Blizzard basically gave him his yearly paycheck already.
And if e-sport doesn't work well after a few years ? " Well, I guess I go back at being of the elite student of my country ! Dammit ! "
You never stop learning period. Look, once you're done with your e-sports gaming and shit. That's when you can go back to school. You lose some of the best years/experience in high school surely, but you can always go back and graduate. When it comes to post secondary you will see people of all walks in life so you will still be able to get that experience.
On April 04 2013 16:00 archonOOid wrote: Why can't they just move? No that hard really. It seems to me that there will be more money in the making abroad from a Korean perspective with WCS EU/NA spots + all the regular (non WCS) tournaments that are located outside Korea.
Move to someplace you don't speak the language, that has shit food, ugly women, and bad ping to Korea? It's not as easy as you make it man. It's unfair-- Koreans are being punished just for being Koreans.
How the hell are they being punished? They aren't entitled to shit. Theres a reason why its Regional, with those regions being KR, NA, EU.
Except that no other region in the world is as good as Korean B teamers.
Was it fair that foreigners got direct seeds into the MLG winter "Championship" by playing in 'regional' qualifiers, beating players like Fenix and complete no name foreigners?
Was the first round not the one of the most atrocious things ever displayed in SC2?
Koreans are being punished for being more talented and working harder? Complete bullshit. I hope this whole disaster doesn't come to fruition. "Incontrol vs TT1, live, winner to the season finals where Code S Koreans who had a path 10,000x harder than them await"
How can you quantifyably prove that these apparent legions of Korean 'B-teamers' are 100% with-out a doubt better than players from the rest of the world?
It was fair that people who are from a certain region, proved they were the best from the region, and got a seed for it. Thats why its a REGIONAL qualifier.
You have got to be kidding dude. Go watch the coverage of the Code A qualifiers on the 10th. Any one of those Koreans would be by far the best foreigner in the world.
Guess how many foreigners ever have made it through the Code A qualifiers? Oh right, 0.. same chance any foreigner wins any WCS finals.
You still cant grasp the concept of a WORLD Championship Series. With REGIONAL qualifiers. Besides, if these Korean B-teamers couldnt get past their countrymen in the Korean qualifiers, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that they wouldn't win the Finals anyway, so why do they need to be there?
You don't give a shit about any scene other than the Korean one. Because apparently theyre the only ones capable of even progressing to a high level. Then enjoy watching GSL, ignore the other Regional tournaments, and go on your way.
WCS is set up the way it is to help build each region.
If this was really that big of an injustice to koreans, then why arent you lobbying to give koreans better seeds in ESL too? Europeans cant beat Koreans apparently, because theyre foreigners, afterall, so why not just seed a ton of koreans there too? Oh wait, because its the EUROPEAN Starleague.
You are wrong.
FYI, MVP, MC dropped to code B before. Does that make them not good? 한국의 players all strong. Sometimes you win sometime you lose. Just like Life. Before MVP, Nestea MC era he is nothing and unheard of.
That doesn't make any Code A/B players no good. In fact, some are good but no luck during actual qualifier day.
Again, put them (those you called Code A/B players weak who can't get past any of their own countrymen) in ANY foreigners event, they will own you.
The point is that their regional qualifiers, which means that they should be played by people from that region. Not a bunch of people who just want easy money. If a regional qualifier could be played by anyone, that takes away the point of it being regional.
On April 04 2013 21:58 Zenbrez wrote: Sorry if this is stated somewhere else - does MLG become the the NA WCS? Or do they just host additional tournaments and their MLGs?
As far as my understanding goes MLG tournaments will still happen independently. Maybe WCS will be incorporated in their big LANs though. Same with IEM I think.
On April 04 2013 21:58 Zenbrez wrote: Sorry if this is stated somewhere else - does MLG become the the NA WCS? Or do they just host additional tournaments and their MLGs?
As far as my understanding goes MLG tournaments will still happen independently. Maybe WCS will be incorporated in their big LANs though. Same with IEM I think.
So they can still win all the tournaments they have been winning. I don't feel so bad for them anymore.
Okay, I want to make sure I'm understanding this right. If you're in Code A or the qualifiers, that means you're already locked into Korea as your region, but you have no chance to compete for points because only Code S players get to?
It's unfortunate for the current code a & b players but IMO, blizzard did what's best in the long run for esports and the spectators. From a spectator standpoint it's much better for GSL and OSL to have implications for a year-end world championship, rather than for the WCS to be just another tourney among many. Ultimately, you can't please everybody. Blizzard did what they had to do given the circumstances in each region.
On April 04 2013 22:42 forsooth wrote: Okay, I want to make sure I'm understanding this right. If you're in Code A or the qualifiers, that means you're already locked into Korea as your region, but you have no chance to compete for points because only Code S players get to?
Well it would really be dumb if you could play Code A and GSL qualifiers while playing WCS in another region so you have two chances to qualify for the next WCS season if I understand this correctly.
Also I think the decision to play WCS in another region should require you to reside in that region so that you actually have to move and practice in that region for a certain amount of time which would result in a more even skill distribution and a way of legitimizing players playing in another region.
I love Naniwa for his attitude, he just want to show everyone, that he can still compete in GSL. I like that, hope to see him in the GSL BTT: I think, that Mcs statment just tells the truth, Blizzard could have done some things better, but anyways i think we will se a lot of great game because of the WCS
On April 04 2013 22:54 Baum wrote: Well it would really be dumb if you could play Code A and GSL qualifiers while playing WCS in another region so you have two chances to qualify for the next WCS season if I understand this correctly.
Also I think the decision to play WCS in another region should require you to reside in that region so that you actually have to move and practice in that region for a certain amount of time which would result in a more even skill distribution and a way of legitimizing players playing in another region.
Why do you want to make it a harder region lock than it already is? Koreans mostly don't even complain about having a harder qualifier, they do complain that they are locked into region and Code S is taken as qualifier which is already decided and Code A / B players don't even had the chance to qualify due to this.
Based on WOL results and the very last season of GSL WoL it has been decided who is qualified...= . = which is just wrong
All this is very true, One way to partly prevent this would be to do a special bracket for Koreans (I actually mean you put all the Koreans in the same side of the overall bracket) this gives the opportunity to all foreign players to compete in Season finals. The problem is that it won't help foreigners to play in Korea.
I don't really understand why the people who won & qualified for code S should be punished for winning, by allowing everyone except them, a second chance.
Only the legit and non fraud koreans will remain in korea and own it up. Because it would just reassure them that if they are on top of the GSL or korean WCS, then they are basically the best in the world, and should go into Blizzcon finals confident they can handle anyone from NA/EU.
On April 04 2013 22:54 Baum wrote: Well it would really be dumb if you could play Code A and GSL qualifiers while playing WCS in another region so you have two chances to qualify for the next WCS season if I understand this correctly.
Also I think the decision to play WCS in another region should require you to reside in that region so that you actually have to move and practice in that region for a certain amount of time which would result in a more even skill distribution and a way of legitimizing players playing in another region.
Why do you want to make it a harder region lock than it already is? Koreans mostly don't even complain about having a harder qualifier, they do complain that they are locked into region and Code S is taken as qualifier which is already decided and Code A / B players don't even had the chance to qualify due to this.
Based on WOL results and the very last season of GSL WoL it has been decided who is qualified...= . = which is just wrong
I am still not quite sure how the system works to be honest. But if playing Code A and playing WCS in another region means that you can qualify for the next WCS season through two different events I think it's not quite fair. Everyone should have the same chance of qualifying. If the best solution is to run a separate qualifier I have nothing against that. I agree that it is not very fair or legitimate to just run the first WCS Korea with all the Code S players. While all the players trying to qualify for Code S don't even get a chance to play in WCS.
My other point about requiring residency for Players playing in different regions is based on the argument that this would help the different regions because it would mean that a player actually had to practice in the region he plays in so if Koreans decide to play in EU and NA which I have no problem with they would be playing on those servers and the level of play in those regions would rise. Also it would legitimize the players doing that and add to their story line. If you think about Polt nobody can really fault him for playing in NA because he is living there and adding to the competitiveness of the American scene just like ForGG is doing the same in Europe.
On April 04 2013 23:06 ErrantKnight wrote: All this is very true, One way to partly prevent this would be to do a special bracket for Koreans (I actually mean you put all the Koreans in the same side of the overall bracket) this gives the opportunity to all foreign players to compete in Season finals. The problem is that it won't help foreigners to play in Korea.
0_0 mindblown. The runner up being worse than ~50-100 Koreans would make this tournament a laughing stock.
It blows my mind is why they don't have a separate WCS qualifier, especially since now they have two sets of caster casting the exactly the same thing which is completely redundant and a terrible waste of money! Instead they should've done:
On April 04 2013 22:53 Doodsmack wrote: It's unfortunate for the current code a & b players but IMO, blizzard did what's best in the long run for esports and the spectators. From a spectator standpoint it's much better for GSL and OSL to have implications for a year-end world championship, rather than for the WCS to be just another tourney among many. Ultimately, you can't please everybody. Blizzard did what they had to do given the circumstances in each region.
I understand why they made OSL/GSL the Korean WCS . Do you think both would co-operate when Blizzard's new tournament would invalidate their status quo ? I sincerly doubt that. OGN and Gom wanted to keep their leagues as WCS qualifiers for their co-operation thats pretty clear . At least thats how i see it.
Yeah quite a few of Koreans players get shafted by this . But it's a buiness afterall for OGN and Gom.
On April 04 2013 23:44 TAMinator wrote: Naniwa to take the final korean spot from Nestea. Called it. (You don't even know how much I want this to happen HEHEHEHE)
I don't get it. What do you mean?
The main complaint is that those in Code A and in Prelims can't compete in this season of WCS Korea and both Nestea and Naniwa are out of the running for this season as it is. They can somehow break into next season though and I guess your scenario could happen then, but even then I'm not sure how they can both be in the running for 5th/6th points wise... Maybe season 3 or Grand Finals.
On April 04 2013 11:39 TommyP wrote: I remember on Lo3 that Incontrol was saying how he wanted to smack everyone that didn't agree this was a good thing. I really want to see incontrol hit MC.
Because you should hit everyone who doesn't share the same opinions as you're own. That's classy.
Only when you're bigger than the person you're hitting ;]
The way that I thought it was going to work was they were going to award points to players based on tournament results i.e. win mlg get 50 points win gsl 200 points etc. then the players that led their respective regions in points would qualify for WCS. This new format doesn't seem to fit well with how starcraft has developed and seems to remove a lot of incentive for players I do like the fact that it is removing a lot of the disconnect between tournaments for players. Hopefully it continues to develop into a far better format but, I really don't like it for this year.
May be thats a silly question but why cant the GSL and de WCS be played both in one season? Would that be to much of an investment? In this case ode A/B koreans could stay in korea playing their qualifiers respectivley up's and down's and the code S koreans could play the GSL and the best of them also compete in the wcs regionals?
Was thinking the exact same thing. First season of WCS should be open and not have the seeded Code S players because it becomes impossible for the non-Code S Koreans to even have a shot at getting anywhere near representing Korea. Also how Code S is set up means that very little new players will be able to get into this top 32 (?) and overall it'll just be very difficult for the majority of Korean pro-gamers to get anywhere near WCS.
Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
On April 05 2013 00:48 InsidiA wrote: Was thinking the exact same thing. First season of WCS should be open and not have the seeded Code S players because it becomes impossible for the non-Code S Koreans to even have a shot at getting anywhere near representing Korea. Also how Code S is set up means that very little new players will be able to get into this top 32 (?) and overall it'll just be very difficult for the majority of Korean pro-gamers to get anywhere near WCS.
from 5 code S + 1 OSL to now 3 WCS, and with many kespa players entering the sc2 scene. Yeah they're getting screwed pretty badly :[
Why the Blizzard hate? Isn't GomTV and/or OnGameNet the ones who decided to limit it to only Code S players for the 1st season just to keep it in line with their current setup? I mean the players aren't limited in NA or EU, just Korea which tells me blizzard didn't pull that string.
On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote: Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
On April 05 2013 00:48 InsidiA wrote: Was thinking the exact same thing. First season of WCS should be open and not have the seeded Code S players because it becomes impossible for the non-Code S Koreans to even have a shot at getting anywhere near representing Korea. Also how Code S is set up means that very little new players will be able to get into this top 32 (?) and overall it'll just be very difficult for the majority of Korean pro-gamers to get anywhere near WCS.
from 5 code S + 1 OSL to now 3 WCS, and with many kespa players entering the sc2 scene. Yeah they're getting screwed pretty badly :[
The GSL format was just never very good for the smaller more unknown players because of how difficult it is to get from Code B to Code S yet how easy it is to retain your Code S spot if youre in it (yes i realize they earned this spot). At this point it seems with WCS being less frequent and having so much prize pool it'll just seem silly for these lesser players to play in WCS.
i'd rather watch WCS with 85% of top tier Korean players and 15% of top tier foreigner players than 33% of Top tier korean players playing against 15% of good foreigners and 52% of foreigners who won't stand any chance at all to even win a map. It's a pretty bad system that dis encourage foreigners from getting better as they will be able to get lots of money by winning their regional WCSs and be nowhere near the level of Korean players in grand finals.
Id rather have good Koreans than watch foreign players get raped without even winning a game in the final tournament. MLG was horrible until later rounds.
On April 05 2013 00:48 InsidiA wrote: Was thinking the exact same thing. First season of WCS should be open and not have the seeded Code S players because it becomes impossible for the non-Code S Koreans to even have a shot at getting anywhere near representing Korea. Also how Code S is set up means that very little new players will be able to get into this top 32 (?) and overall it'll just be very difficult for the majority of Korean pro-gamers to get anywhere near WCS.
from 5 code S + 1 OSL to now 3 WCS, and with many kespa players entering the sc2 scene. Yeah they're getting screwed pretty badly :[
The GSL format was just never very good for the smaller more unknown players because of how difficult it is to get from Code B to Code S yet how easy it is to retain your Code S spot if youre in it (yes i realize they earned this spot). At this point it seems with WCS being less frequent and having so much prize pool it'll just seem silly for these lesser players to play in WCS.
After a few seasons, the NA and EU WCS will be just as bad for up and coming players as the GSL currently is. I respect the complaints, but they are mostly caused by the NA and EU establishing a new league, rather than some master plan to screw over Korean players. Korea has always been the hardest place for players to make it, regardless of where they are from and Blizzard's new event wasn't going to change that. Life is hard and not fair, get a helmet.
On April 05 2013 00:48 InsidiA wrote: Was thinking the exact same thing. First season of WCS should be open and not have the seeded Code S players because it becomes impossible for the non-Code S Koreans to even have a shot at getting anywhere near representing Korea. Also how Code S is set up means that very little new players will be able to get into this top 32 (?) and overall it'll just be very difficult for the majority of Korean pro-gamers to get anywhere near WCS.
from 5 code S + 1 OSL to now 3 WCS, and with many kespa players entering the sc2 scene. Yeah they're getting screwed pretty badly :[
The GSL format was just never very good for the smaller more unknown players because of how difficult it is to get from Code B to Code S yet how easy it is to retain your Code S spot if youre in it (yes i realize they earned this spot). At this point it seems with WCS being less frequent and having so much prize pool it'll just seem silly for these lesser players to play in WCS.
I wouldn't quite say it's easy to hold a code S spot. A lot of people go from S to B within a season. I obviously do agree that going from B to S is harder than holding S, though.
Any format where players from all nationalities can compete in a league, but are locked into one league, is just terrible. Imo Blizzard made their decisions to cather to the casual SC2 viewers and is basicly screwing the "hardcore" fans pretty hard.
If we ignore the 3 worldwide finals for a second, who do you think would be able to gain the most points over the 3 regional competitions? It would be the best players (probably the koreans that move over) in NA/EU because the competition there will be so soft that variance will be much much lower for them and they will be able to make deeper runs more easily.
On the other hand if we would somehow be able to repeat this whole event 1000 times what would basicly happen is that all the koreans would spread out so that the skill level is about the same in all 3 regions. This would also mean that Team Leagues would pretty much be dead or at least suck. It would also mean that the meta game and skill level would evolve slower because for most of the year there would be 3 seperate equally skilled player pools who are barely in contact with each other.
It would also mean that the final leagues would be 3 different groups of players that have stories around them amongst them selves, but stories between groups would be pretty much non existant because they would simply have never faced during the year, or maybe once during the Finals Event.
I think a simple solution would be for Blizzard to just accept South-Koreas superiority and make the NA/EU events online based and have week long finals stage where the final few rounds are played. During that week, Korean leagues would be on break. That way everyone can enter every event and we have 3 big leagues spread over the world that fans AND casuals can enjoy.
On April 05 2013 01:24 bbfg wrote: Any format where players from all nationalities can compete in a league, but are locked into one league, is just terrible. Imo Blizzard made their decisions to cather to the casual SC2 viewers and is basicly screwing the "hardcore" fans pretty hard.
If we ignore the 3 worldwide finals for a second, who do you think would be able to gain the most points over the 3 regional competitions? It would be the best players (probably the koreans that move over) in NA/EU because the competition there will be so soft that variance will be much much lower for them and they will be able to make deeper runs more easily.
On the other hand if we would somehow be able to repeat this whole event 1000 times what would basicly happen is that all the koreans would spread out so that the skill level is about the same in all 3 regions. This would also mean that Team Leagues would pretty much be dead or at least suck. It would also mean that the meta game and skill level would evolve slower because for most of the year there would be 3 seperate equally skilled player pools who are barely in contact with each other.
It would also mean that the final leagues would be 3 different groups of players that have stories around them amongst them selves, but stories between groups would be pretty much non existant because they would simply have never faced during the year, or maybe once during the Finals Event.
I think a simple solution would be would be for Blizzard to just accept South-Koreas superiority and make the NA/EU events online based and have week long finals stage where the final few rounds are played. During that week, Korean leagues would be on break. That way everyone can enter every event and we have 3 big leagues spread over the world that fans AND casuals can enjoy.
So you want more NASL's with an "extra-long weekend LAN" ?
I guess if there was some strict rules about people from other continents playing in other continents' tournaments (e.g. europeans in NA, americans in EU, koreans in EU/NA) it would be a lot safer for players. Something like 'you must be a resident of the country for at least 12 months or full WCS season. That way Koreans would have no reason to stay in EU/NA for 12 months to only play NASL or DreamHack. But people who are commited or have the infrastructure ready for them (Polt, Rain, SeleCT and EG or TeamLiquid players + any other) would be 'more eligible' to compete in NA or EU since they don't practice in Korea and only move to other countries to get some moneyz in WCS.
Are there any T&C's out yet for WCS? It's hard to believe that Blizzard would make all that effort to have separate tournaments to just have it filled with Koreans everywhere. But then... who knows.
I just want the WCS to fucking begin so that Koreans just get more free money and I'll laugh and not give a care about NA teams that I never watch on stream anyways.
On April 05 2013 03:03 kennyf wrote: I guess if there was some strict rules about people from other continents playing in other continents' tournaments (e.g. europeans in NA, americans in EU, koreans in EU/NA) it would be a lot safer for players. Something like 'you must be a resident of the country for at least 12 months or full WCS season. That way Koreans would have no reason to stay in EU/NA for 12 months to only play NASL or DreamHack. But people who are commited or have the infrastructure ready for them (Polt, Rain, SeleCT and EG or TeamLiquid players + any other) would be 'more eligible' to compete in NA or EU since they don't practice in Korea and only move to other countries to get some moneyz in WCS.
Are there any T&C's out yet for WCS? It's hard to believe that Blizzard would make all that effort to have separate tournaments to just have it filled with Koreans everywhere. But then... who knows.
So say Idra suddenly falls in love with a German girl, and wants to move to europe and live with her. He must then wait like a year before he can try to play in WCS again? And if she breaks up with him, and Idra moves back to us - he must wait another year before rejoining US WCS?
The residence requirement is bad because it has so many ways to screw people over. The format with the LAN part, will most likely be enough that everyone who actually plans to earn moneys will likely have to move for quite a long period anyways, so why set restrictions that may bar some players from participating in ANY region.
On April 05 2013 03:03 kennyf wrote: I guess if there was some strict rules about people from other continents playing in other continents' tournaments (e.g. europeans in NA, americans in EU, koreans in EU/NA) it would be a lot safer for players. Something like 'you must be a resident of the country for at least 12 months or full WCS season. That way Koreans would have no reason to stay in EU/NA for 12 months to only play NASL or DreamHack. But people who are commited or have the infrastructure ready for them (Polt, Rain, SeleCT and EG or TeamLiquid players + any other) would be 'more eligible' to compete in NA or EU since they don't practice in Korea and only move to other countries to get some moneyz in WCS.
Are there any T&C's out yet for WCS? It's hard to believe that Blizzard would make all that effort to have separate tournaments to just have it filled with Koreans everywhere. But then... who knows.
So say Idra suddenly falls in love with a German girl, and wants to move to europe and live with her. He must then wait like a year before he can try to play in WCS again? And if she breaks up with him, and Idra moves back to us - he must wait another year before rejoining US WCS?
The residence requirement is bad because it has so many ways to screw people over. The format with the LAN part, will most likely be enough that everyone who actually plans to earn moneys will likely have to move for quite a long period anyways, so why set restrictions that may bar some players from participating in ANY region.
Obviously if there is a really strict rule about residency it would lead to kind of idiotic situations. But if it was something like you have to stay in a certain region for a certain amount of time if you want to play in it then I can't really see how this screws people over.
This thread is awful, 90% of the posters didn't understand what MC said. Instead they went off-topic talking about the same "the bests must win and get the money" shit. Nobody talked about that.
I will resume the situation a little bit and sum up MC thoughts :
-there will be less big events in Korea in general so less money to win eventually in Korea ;
-without a rework of these tournaments's format, with the amount of players and the addition of Kespa it's harder for good koreans to make money;
-WCS works by points and the first season of WCS is based on GSL, so Code A/B really good players who can't pierce through Code A can't play in the event with the biggest prize-pool of the year; basically it's not an open qualifier anymore;
-the whole WCS poses a dilema to most koreans pro players, leave GSL for 1 year and try easier money outside or try to compete in the best league;
-the online part in EU and NA is retarded as Koreans won't need to stay abroad for long and a long stay of koreans abroad would raise the skill in these scenes; if it was a weekly lan we could even see teamhouses rise;
A global league divided in NA, KR, EU is a really good idea screamed since ages ago but Blizzard is disapointing, they should have just made LCS in NA and EU and give money for tournaments in Korea. Instead i feel like they worsened things in Korea, they should have let them sort things out and give them money like Riot does to the Korean's scene (or if they wanted to change things so badly why not combine GSTL and PL and make like 6 GSL/OSL per year), also they didnt do the right things in EU and NA perhaps they were too proud to copy everything that Riot did but then they are bad buisnessmen.
That thing is a step forward, Blizzard takes concrete actions finally, but there will be a lot of rework to do, the system announced like that is miles away from what it should be.
I totally agree with MC. How is it a WCS if anyone can qualify from anywhere? What's the point of playing KR when you can go to NA/EU and have an easy time AND make money?
I think region locking the qualifiers is the hatchet rather than scalpel solution to this issue. With the stated goal of Blizzard in this being raising SC2's esports profile having Min Chul be the "European Champion," will raise a lot of eyebrows from those who may be tuning in for the first time or more casual viewers.
I would like to and do expect to see Koreans qualifying elsewhere but perhaps a cap on number of seeds for region crossing players is a more middle of the road fix?
Say each region has five open seeds you can apply for which are given out by lottery to ensure fairness. Not one of the five who gets to play on another server you can play on your native server. Doubtful that there would be many takers to play on KR I don't know what bearing this would have on practice or preparation but it seems moderately equitable while still allowing for some lesser known players to remain competitive and work their way up a bit.
I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
On April 05 2013 04:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Another upside of this is that it ends to welfare seeds for foreigners into GSL.
amen.
And hopefully welfare plane fare and hotels for Koreans coming to MLG. And brackets for them to qualify for Korea, with a separate bracket for kespa, just to make sure they are there too.
On April 05 2013 04:56 ThomasjServo wrote: I think region locking the qualifiers is the hatchet rather than scalpel solution to this issue. With the stated goal of Blizzard in this being raising SC2's esports profile having Min Chul be the "European Champion," will raise a lot of eyebrows from those who may be tuning in for the first time or more casual viewers.
I would like to and do expect to see Koreans qualifying elsewhere but perhaps a cap on number of seeds for region crossing players is a more middle of the road fix?
Say each region has five open seeds you can apply for which are given out by lottery to ensure fairness. Not one of the five who gets to play on another server you can play on your native server. Doubtful that there would be many takers to play on KR I don't know what bearing this would have on practice or preparation but it seems moderately equitable while still allowing for some lesser known players to remain competitive and work their way up a bit.
It may be a hatchet job but I think the new format is fundamentally flawed. The game is played globally and trying to make it regional is really just cutting out the best players so that some no-name player can get hype behind them. The Koreans shouldn't be punished for putting in more effort and being dominant they should be rewarded.
It is a fundamentally flawed idea to have favoritism built into a tournament's structure.
On April 05 2013 04:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Another upside of this is that it ends to welfare seeds for foreigners into GSL.
amen.
And hopefully welfare plane fare and hotels for Koreans coming to MLG. And brackets for them to qualify for Korea without, with a separate bracket for kespa.
Oh don't tease me ... MLG going FULL FOREIGNER would be su-perb
On April 05 2013 04:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Another upside of this is that it ends to welfare seeds for foreigners into GSL.
amen.
And hopefully welfare plane fare and hotels for Koreans coming to MLG. And brackets for them to qualify for Korea, with a separate bracket for kespa, just to make sure they are there too.
On April 05 2013 04:56 ThomasjServo wrote: I think region locking the qualifiers is the hatchet rather than scalpel solution to this issue. With the stated goal of Blizzard in this being raising SC2's esports profile having Min Chul be the "European Champion," will raise a lot of eyebrows from those who may be tuning in for the first time or more casual viewers.
I would like to and do expect to see Koreans qualifying elsewhere but perhaps a cap on number of seeds for region crossing players is a more middle of the road fix?
Say each region has five open seeds you can apply for which are given out by lottery to ensure fairness. Not one of the five who gets to play on another server you can play on your native server. Doubtful that there would be many takers to play on KR I don't know what bearing this would have on practice or preparation but it seems moderately equitable while still allowing for some lesser known players to remain competitive and work their way up a bit.
It may be a hatchet job but I think the new format is fundamentally flawed. The game is played globally and trying to make it regional is really just cutting out the best players so that some no-name player can get hype behind them. The Koreans shouldn't be punished for putting in more effort and being dominant they should be rewarded.
It is a fundamentally flawed idea to have favoritism built into a tournament's structure.
To be fair; that was the stated goal of the WCS last year. To develop regional storylines and heroes, which in term help foster new communities.
I'm not sure how well it worked (esp since they're scrapping it this year); but for example there was a blog about the the 10 or so contestants for one of the Central American qualifiers and it looked like fun for all involved.
I wonder if this change is more due to the difficulties relying on tiny regional partners who may or may not know what they're doing than the failure to develop local scenes.
On April 05 2013 04:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Another upside of this is that it ends to welfare seeds for foreigners into GSL.
amen.
And hopefully welfare plane fare and hotels for Koreans coming to MLG. And brackets for them to qualify for Korea without, with a separate bracket for kespa.
Oh don't tease me ... MLG going FULL FOREIGNER would be su-perb
Agreed, but I don't like separate brackets for specific groups to bypass qualifying. Or free flights when the normal NA/EU player pays their way.
Yeah fuck it. The system is fucking dreadful, not like the Code B no-namers had much to gain from the scene before either though but yes, certainly a slap in the face of koreans.
On April 05 2013 05:59 Thrill wrote: Yeah fuck it. The system is fucking dreadful, not like the Code B no-namers had much to gain from the scene before either though but yes, certainly a slap in the face of koreans.
I am sure they will get over it. There was no better system for Korea beyond making everyone qualify again, which just as bad. As I said before, life is hard and isn't fair, get a helmet.
Soccer analogy is just bad. Look at FIFAs world cup club competition, only one European club and we all know how dominant Europe is in soccer. (in terms of clubs) Same goes for World Cup for national teams, only South America can cope with Europe, and European cup is considered a lot more difficult than the World Cup.
I just hope it remains this way and somehow they prevent Koreans from farming other regions.
On April 05 2013 05:59 Thrill wrote: Yeah fuck it. The system is fucking dreadful, not like the Code B no-namers had much to gain from the scene before either though but yes, certainly a slap in the face of koreans.
I am sure they will get over it. There was no better system for Korea beyond making everyone qualify again, which just as bad. As I said before, life is hard and isn't fair, get a helmet.
There was a way better system for Korea... Keep the GSL and WCS Korea separate tournaments... They should have just had OGN and Gom host their own tournaments while the other one of them was hosting WCS Korea. Then they'd swap etc. That would have been infinitely better than this for everyone.
On April 05 2013 05:59 Thrill wrote: Yeah fuck it. The system is fucking dreadful, not like the Code B no-namers had much to gain from the scene before either though but yes, certainly a slap in the face of koreans.
I am sure they will get over it. There was no better system for Korea beyond making everyone qualify again, which just as bad. As I said before, life is hard and isn't fair, get a helmet.
There was a way better system for Korea... Keep the GSL and WCS Korea separate tournaments... They should have just had OGN and Gom host their own tournaments while the other one of them was hosting WCS Korea. Then they'd swap etc. That would have been infinitely better than this for everyone.
Thats to many tournaments in Korea for the players and weaken the already existing torments. GOM and OGN would not have gone for that.
On April 05 2013 06:07 Abominous wrote: Soccer analogy is just bad. Look at FIFAs world cup club competition, only one European club and we all know how dominant Europe is in soccer. (in terms of clubs) Same goes for World Cup for national teams, only South America can cope with Europe, and European cup is considered a lot more difficult than the World Cup.
I just hope it remains this way and somehow they prevent Koreans from farming other regions.
my thoughts exactly. EU only gets one direct seed per qualification group for the World Cup. France/Spain should totally complain about it. I can totally understand the koreans being upset, but making a point with football is completely wrong, it is the sport where certain region gets fucked to reach better diversity
On April 05 2013 05:48 Wuster wrote: To be fair; that was the stated goal of the WCS last year. To develop regional storylines and heroes, which in term help foster new communities.
I'm not sure how well it worked (esp since they're scrapping it this year); but for example there was a blog about the the 10 or so contestants for one of the Central American qualifiers and it looked like fun for all involved.
I wonder if this change is more due to the difficulties relying on tiny regional partners who may or may not know what they're doing than the failure to develop local scenes.
Hey, that falls back on Blizzard as well. It's their fault for piggybacking on other organizers to carry out the bloody thing. Think of their prize money as a stimulus package.
On April 05 2013 06:07 Abominous wrote: Soccer analogy is just bad. Look at FIFAs world cup club competition, only one European club and we all know how dominant Europe is in soccer. (in terms of clubs) Same goes for World Cup for national teams, only South America can cope with Europe, and European cup is considered a lot more difficult than the World Cup.
I just hope it remains this way and somehow they prevent Koreans from farming other regions.
my thoughts exactly. EU only gets one direct seed per qualification group for the World Group. France/Spain should totally complain about it. I can totally understand the koreans being upset, but making a point with football is completely wrong, it is the sport where certain region gets fucked to reach better diversity
I see a lot of people trying to make stupid analogies from time to time. I wish it would stop, but they keep coming. Whether we be talking about piracy or game formats. It never ends!
On April 05 2013 04:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Another upside of this is that it ends to welfare seeds for foreigners into GSL.
amen.
And hopefully welfare plane fare and hotels for Koreans coming to MLG. And brackets for them to qualify for Korea without, with a separate bracket for kespa.
Oh don't tease me ... MLG going FULL FOREIGNER would be su-perb
I'd actually be curious to see a poll of MLG ticket buyers that asked whether they would prefer all foreigners or having a Korean presence because I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from you on this.
On April 05 2013 04:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Another upside of this is that it ends to welfare seeds for foreigners into GSL.
amen.
And hopefully welfare plane fare and hotels for Koreans coming to MLG. And brackets for them to qualify for Korea without, with a separate bracket for kespa.
Oh don't tease me ... MLG going FULL FOREIGNER would be su-perb
I'd actually be curious to see a poll of MLG ticket buyers that asked whether they would prefer all foreigners or having a Korean presence because I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from you on this.
Ditto. I wouldn't watch a single game if it were full foreigner.
IMO it's best to integrate WCS with GSL and OSL. From a spectator standpoint it's much more meaningful for those two main tournaments to have implications for WCS, rather than for WCS to be just another tourney among many. Blizzard did the best they could given the existing system.
On April 05 2013 06:40 rift wrote: mlg knows well enough that no koreans = no good for business
Yet DreamHack manages to be one of, if not the, most successful tournament without specifically catering to Koreans. DreamHack Winter had 4 Koreans, all on foreign teams (AKA, ones that would pay flight expenses), yet it had one of the highest viewer counts for 2012.
Too many people just blindly support foreigners. I support the people who clearly have worked the hardest and deserve to get prize money due to their superior skills. I wouldn't be even a bit upset if foreigners didn't win a single dollar. If you wanna win money, actually get to a level where you can.
On April 05 2013 05:10 playa wrote: I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
You sound like a disgruntled lazy person.
There's a reason why the people who work 4+ more hours take all the money. They work that much harder to win it. If the non-Koreans want to win that same money they should work/try harder.
The money and sustainability should be the inspiration. It shouldn't have to come from Mike Morhaime. They are putting the money and tournament out there, the best will win it at the end of the day.
On April 05 2013 04:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Another upside of this is that it ends to welfare seeds for foreigners into GSL.
amen.
And hopefully welfare plane fare and hotels for Koreans coming to MLG. And brackets for them to qualify for Korea without, with a separate bracket for kespa.
Oh don't tease me ... MLG going FULL FOREIGNER would be su-perb
I'd actually be curious to see a poll of MLG ticket buyers that asked whether they would prefer all foreigners or having a Korean presence because I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from you on this.
Ditto. I wouldn't watch a single game if it were full foreigner.
Same! No koreans --> It's sub-par gameplay except for maybe the semis and final. That said I prefer tournaments with a fair foreigner representation as well, just to give better story lines, english interviews, and similar stuff. I suppose you could find a golden ratio where the likelyhood of 1 or 2 foreigners making a good run is good without foreigner vs foreigner games dominating the stream .
On April 05 2013 07:11 lolspoon wrote: Naniwa and Sase, say what you want, but these are the only 2 people that can make something happen out of foregners in the next year
I'd reckon Stephano still has a chance to make something happen.
I'm perfectly fine with Koreans playing in NA and EU. The whole point of this is to build infrastructure in EU and NA. It doesn't matter what country you're originally from. If Polt and Co. decide to come to Texas, build a team house, and recruit local players to come and play with them, you already have succeeded in seeding great "white people". I put that in quotes because I still don't think it matters. The reason why people make such a big fuss about Koreans beating everyone (or the reason they should be citing) is that Koreans have a better infrastructure to develop talent. Once that is equalized, there is no law of the universe that says you must be of Korean nationality to be good at SC2.
On April 05 2013 07:11 lolspoon wrote: Naniwa and Sase, say what you want, but these are the only 2 people that can make something happen out of foregners in the next year
I'd reckon Stephano still has a chance to make something happen.
Not as many opportunities though when you're in the USA (when I say that I mean more cracks at Koreans btw before someone tries to spin doctor that one).
On April 05 2013 06:40 rift wrote: mlg knows well enough that no koreans = no good for business
Yet DreamHack manages to be one of, if not the, most successful tournament without specifically catering to Koreans. DreamHack Winter had 4 Koreans, all on foreign teams (AKA, ones that would pay flight expenses), yet it had one of the highest viewer counts for 2012.
Other factors like TV involvement btw MLG flew more than just Koreans so I don't get the pot shot. Ask any team including EG. They were all very thankful for the gesture shown by MLG.
I don't get why this is ingrained in the GSL. The reason why is obvious (Blizzard/GSL/OGN partnership) but it is just silly and unfair. Even more so now that GSL carried over slots/standings from WoL...
On April 05 2013 07:49 pellejohnson wrote: All I can think of is what the fuck happened with Starcraft? Remember the BW days when players played to win and not just farm money in Europe/USA...
One World Tour Circuit would be pretty awesome. Heck, it's in my manifesto.
I don't really understand why people are being so judgemental about something that hasn't even gone on for more then a week, and is pretty much in a beta phase that is opted to change if needed.
On April 05 2013 05:10 playa wrote: I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
He is the CEO of Blizzard. I will be shocked if he doesn't work 60-80 hours a week. That's not a 9-5 job.
On April 05 2013 07:11 lolspoon wrote: Naniwa and Sase, say what you want, but these are the only 2 people that can make something happen out of foregners in the next year
On April 05 2013 07:57 Daogin wrote: I don't really understand why people are being so judgemental about something that hasn't even gone on for more then a week, and is pretty much in a beta phase that is opted to change if needed.
I guess you are another one of those people who didn't really read Wax's post. Anyway, I've already reiterated the main points several times like several others. The fact it's only the first week is irrelevant. Part of the uproar has to do with the fact the Koreans aren't playing on equal footing based on the format where you have to be in Code S. A lot of players aren't in Code S and this season (cannot even really call it the GSL anymore because the WCS pretty much replaced it with the same format) thus they aren't eligible if they're code A/B. Furthermore they would have to forfeit their positioning in the Code B/A to lock in a different region. Not only that, but code S is based on what they did in WoL.
Yes, it's only beta. Yes, we don't have all the information on qualifier points. What did we get from this? Free Twitch stream with OGN English casts (sorry to those subscribers who feel cheated). GSL/OSL got replaced with WCS. The money in Korea got worse because as it stands there are less opportunities there now with only 3 seasons. Blizzard gave EU and NA a stimulus package by putting more money in those scenes.
On April 05 2013 05:10 playa wrote: I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
He is the CEO of Blizzard. I will be shocked if he doesn't work 60-80 hours a week. That's not a 9-5 job.
Depends really. I know CEOs who play golf all day. I'm pretty sure Mike doesn't play golf all day. I don't mind him being the face of the company, but his public speaking skills could use some improvement.
On April 05 2013 07:57 Daogin wrote: I don't really understand why people are being so judgemental about something that hasn't even gone on for more then a week, and is pretty much in a beta phase that is opted to change if needed.
I guess you are another one of those people who didn't really read Wax's post. Anyway, I've already reiterated the main points several times like several others. The fact it's only the first week is irrelevant. Part of the uproar has to do with the fact the Koreans aren't playing on equal footing based on the format where you have to be in Code S. A lot of players aren't in Code S and this season (cannot even really call it the GSL anymore because the WCS pretty much replaced it with the same format) thus they aren't eligible if they're code A/B. Furthermore they would have to forfeit their positioning in the Code B/A to lock in a different region. Not only that, but code S is based on what they did in WoL.
Yes, it's only beta. Yes, we don't have all the information on qualifier points. What did we get from this? Free Twitch stream with OGN English casts (sorry to those subscribers who feel cheated). GSL/OSL got replaced with WCS. The money in Korea got worse because as it stands there are less opportunities there now with only 3 seasons. Blizzard gave EU and NA a stimulus package by putting more money in those scenes.
I did read it, just half awake and didn't comprehend the entire situation, but that does make more sense and obviously shows a bigger problem , thank you for clarifying.
On April 05 2013 05:10 playa wrote: I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
You sound like a disgruntled lazy person.
There's a reason why the people who work 4+ more hours take all the money. They work that much harder to win it. If the non-Koreans want to win that same money they should work/try harder.
The money and sustainability should be the inspiration. It shouldn't have to come from Mike Morhaime. They are putting the money and tournament out there, the best will win it at the end of the day.
Yeah, because there's definitely enough money in the scene to make working 14 plus hours a day worth it, on the off chance you can place high enough to win money in a top heavy event. The guy doesn't believe a word he says. He just had to do it to appease all of the tournament organizers, that's it. If you're expecting foreigners to put in BW Korean hours, say goodbye to foreigner gaming for good. I'd rather be "lazy" than forced to play a minimum of 14 hours a day. It's a game. It's not life. All of your waking hours spent working is stupid. There should be laws against that if there's not, already.
All Blizzard is doing is promoting "entertainers," a euphemism for people that talk a lot. The only pro gamers should be personalities in such a format, because what difference does it make whether a "good" foreigner finishes after all the Koreans or a personality does? Losing is losing.
I'm sure Mike Morhaime makes a lot of f'ing money, but if he started working 14 hours a day every day, even he would probably say f it. SC 2 isn't that great and the money isn't there. I'd just like to see him give it a go. See how great his wisdom is.
On April 05 2013 05:59 Thrill wrote: Yeah fuck it. The system is fucking dreadful, not like the Code B no-namers had much to gain from the scene before either though but yes, certainly a slap in the face of koreans.
I am sure they will get over it. There was no better system for Korea beyond making everyone qualify again, which just as bad. As I said before, life is hard and isn't fair, get a helmet.
There was a way better system for Korea... Keep the GSL and WCS Korea separate tournaments... They should have just had OGN and Gom host their own tournaments while the other one of them was hosting WCS Korea. Then they'd swap etc. That would have been infinitely better than this for everyone.
Thats to many tournaments in Korea for the players and weaken the already existing torments. GOM and OGN would not have gone for that.
That still would have been less tournaments than they had in 2011 and 2012...
On April 05 2013 05:10 playa wrote: I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
You sound like a disgruntled lazy person.
There's a reason why the people who work 4+ more hours take all the money. They work that much harder to win it. If the non-Koreans want to win that same money they should work/try harder.
The money and sustainability should be the inspiration. It shouldn't have to come from Mike Morhaime. They are putting the money and tournament out there, the best will win it at the end of the day.
Yeah, because there's definitely enough money in the scene to make working 14 plus hours a day worth it, on the off chance you can place high enough to win money in a top heavy event.
Yeah. I mean only ONE team can win the Superbowl, so why bother trying right? May as well just go ahead and stop training and playing NFL games on the OFF chance you make it there.
Ridiculous. This is their life, and its something they chose to pursue. No one forced anyone to be a pro gamer, and no one said it was going to be a charity all the way, much like it was at the beginning of WoL.
The guy doesn't believe a word he says. He just had to do it to appease all of the tournament organizers, that's it. If you're expecting foreigners to put in BW Korean hours, say goodbye to foreigner gaming for good. I'd rather be "lazy" than forced to play a minimum of 14 hours a day. It's a game. It's not life. All of your waking hours spent working is stupid. There should be laws against that if there's not, already.
You'd rather be lazy that put in Korean hours. Thats probably why you're not a pro gamer. If you want to be the best in ANY field, you have to put a shitload of time into it. I mean you might want to consider that besides winning all that money, the game might be an end unto itself, and they might actually enjoy playing starcraft that much. As in, their leisure time is filled with starcraft anyways, because they're passionate about it. But sure, lets take your advice and limit Starcraft practice across the globe to 3 hours a day, just so you feel better about human rights.
Ridiculous.
All Blizzard is doing is promoting "entertainers," a euphemism for people that talk a lot. The only pro gamers should be personalities in such a format, because what difference does it make whether a "good" foreigner finishes after all the Koreans or a personality does? Losing is losing.
Yeah this paragraph makes no sense, skipped it.
I'm sure Mike Morhaime makes a lot of f'ing money, but if he started working 14 hours a day every day, even he would probably say f it. SC 2 isn't that great and the money isn't there. I'd just like to see him give it a go. See how great his wisdom is.
Mike Morhaime has nothing to do with it. Stop using him as a scapegoat to protect foreigners who can't/won't play at the level of Koreans.
On April 05 2013 05:10 playa wrote: I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
You sound like a disgruntled lazy person.
There's a reason why the people who work 4+ more hours take all the money. They work that much harder to win it. If the non-Koreans want to win that same money they should work/try harder.
The money and sustainability should be the inspiration. It shouldn't have to come from Mike Morhaime. They are putting the money and tournament out there, the best will win it at the end of the day.
Yeah, because there's definitely enough money in the scene to make working 14 plus hours a day worth it, on the off chance you can place high enough to win money in a top heavy event. The guy doesn't believe a word he says. He just had to do it to appease all of the tournament organizers, that's it. If you're expecting foreigners to put in BW Korean hours, say goodbye to foreigner gaming for good. I'd rather be "lazy" than forced to play a minimum of 14 hours a day. It's a game. It's not life. All of your waking hours spent working is stupid. There should be laws against that if there's not, already.
All Blizzard is doing is promoting "entertainers," a euphemism for people that talk a lot. The only pro gamers should be personalities in such a format, because what difference does it make whether a "good" foreigner finishes after all the Koreans or a personality does? Losing is losing.
I'm sure Mike Morhaime makes a lot of f'ing money, but if he started working 14 hours a day every day, even he would probably say f it. SC 2 isn't that great and the money isn't there. I'd just like to see him give it a go. See how great his wisdom is.
How is that wisdom? just because people put 14 hours into the game to become good does not mean they are forcing themselves to put 14 hours into work. Though I don't know much about huge businesses and CEO's I highly doubt the Mike got to that position simply putting 8 standard hours a day 40 a week into his career, shit like that takes YEARS of dedication passion and hard work to pay off, in other words, a lot of your own waking hours. Not everyone works just to make money.
On April 05 2013 07:46 StarStruck wrote: Other factors like TV involvement btw MLG flew more than just Koreans so I don't get the pot shot. Ask any team including EG. They were all very thankful for the gesture shown by MLG.
It was not a potshot in the slightest. I was simply stating the fact...DreamHack doesn't need to draw in the best Koreans to be a successful event, so saying MLG needs Koreans is simply not true.
On April 05 2013 04:32 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Another upside of this is that it ends to welfare seeds for foreigners into GSL.
amen.
And hopefully welfare plane fare and hotels for Koreans coming to MLG. And brackets for them to qualify for Korea without, with a separate bracket for kespa.
Oh don't tease me ... MLG going FULL FOREIGNER would be su-perb
I'd actually be curious to see a poll of MLG ticket buyers that asked whether they would prefer all foreigners or having a Korean presence because I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from you on this.
Ditto. I wouldn't watch a single game if it were full foreigner.
I'd watch some of it like I watched some WCS Europe but I wouldn't make sure I had the weekend off work and stay in all weekend to see it all, neither would I be disappointed if I was busy that weekend.
On April 05 2013 07:46 StarStruck wrote: Other factors like TV involvement btw MLG flew more than just Koreans so I don't get the pot shot. Ask any team including EG. They were all very thankful for the gesture shown by MLG.
It was not a potshot in the slightest. I was simply stating the fact...DreamHack doesn't need to draw in the best Koreans to be a successful event, so saying MLG needs Koreans is simply not true.
MLG gets much bigger viewers than Dreamhack does for Sc2 though. I don't think that's entirely due to Koreans but it's part of the reason.
On April 05 2013 05:10 playa wrote: I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
You sound like a disgruntled lazy person.
There's a reason why the people who work 4+ more hours take all the money. They work that much harder to win it. If the non-Koreans want to win that same money they should work/try harder.
The money and sustainability should be the inspiration. It shouldn't have to come from Mike Morhaime. They are putting the money and tournament out there, the best will win it at the end of the day.
Yeah, because there's definitely enough money in the scene to make working 14 plus hours a day worth it, on the off chance you can place high enough to win money in a top heavy event.
Yeah. I mean only ONE team can win the Superbowl, so why bother trying right? May as well just go ahead and stop training and playing NFL games on the OFF chance you make it there.
Ridiculous. This is their life, and its something they chose to pursue. No one forced anyone to be a pro gamer, and no one said it was going to be a charity all the way, much like it was at the beginning of WoL.
The guy doesn't believe a word he says. He just had to do it to appease all of the tournament organizers, that's it. If you're expecting foreigners to put in BW Korean hours, say goodbye to foreigner gaming for good. I'd rather be "lazy" than forced to play a minimum of 14 hours a day. It's a game. It's not life. All of your waking hours spent working is stupid. There should be laws against that if there's not, already.
You'd rather be lazy that put in Korean hours. Thats probably why you're not a pro gamer. If you want to be the best in ANY field, you have to put a shitload of time into it. I mean you might want to consider that besides winning all that money, the game might be an end unto itself, and they might actually enjoy playing starcraft that much. As in, their leisure time is filled with starcraft anyways, because they're passionate about it. But sure, lets take your advice and limit Starcraft practice across the globe to 3 hours a day, just so you feel better about human rights.
All Blizzard is doing is promoting "entertainers," a euphemism for people that talk a lot. The only pro gamers should be personalities in such a format, because what difference does it make whether a "good" foreigner finishes after all the Koreans or a personality does? Losing is losing.
I'm sure Mike Morhaime makes a lot of f'ing money, but if he started working 14 hours a day every day, even he would probably say f it. SC 2 isn't that great and the money isn't there. I'd just like to see him give it a go. See how great his wisdom is.
Mike Morhaime has nothing to do with it. Stop using him as a scapegoat to protect foreigners who can't/won't play at the level of Koreans.
You sound like Mike Morhaime. That has got to be the worst f'ing analogy ever. Another Blizzard employee that has no idea about sports but wants to make this game an e-sport. The minimum for a NFL player is 400k. A freaking rookie punter is going to be making 400k. Even if he wins the super bowl, he gets like 78k extra. For anyone making a comparatively decent salary in the NFL, it makes no difference to them financially whether they win or not.
Super bowls and etc. This is added stuff to give the illusion of meaning to things. But financially, the only people benefiting are the owners. So, if I lost the super bowl, if I cared, it would most certainly not be because of money.
Until a lot of teams are paying good salaries, obviously you have to be one of the best. If you're putting in 14 plus hours just for a chance to compete with the most talented people, you're taking stupid odds.
The paragraph you skipped isn't because it doesn't make sense. If I attempted to read French, I could say, hey that doesn't make sense. But guess what, that's not the problem.
This is ridiculous. I can understand the argument for protecting foreigners and giving them opportunities to win their own tournaments because they don't have the same environment, culture, and opportunities as Koreans. I get that.
But why in the blazes are we worried that the Code B, low-level Koreans aren't going to be protected by the WCS system??? Is there a reason I read some comments that the guy with the SAME training environment as the Code S guys should have a chance without having to move to NA. I'm looking at you Thrill. That makes ZERO sense. The guys in Korea, with the best training environment should not get our pity because they have the opportunity, and still can't compete with their countrymates. They don't need help. They couldn't compete in the past, at least now they can go to NA and beat up on American players.
On April 05 2013 07:46 StarStruck wrote: Other factors like TV involvement btw MLG flew more than just Koreans so I don't get the pot shot. Ask any team including EG. They were all very thankful for the gesture shown by MLG.
It was not a potshot in the slightest. I was simply stating the fact...DreamHack doesn't need to draw in the best Koreans to be a successful event, so saying MLG needs Koreans is simply not true.
You targeted Koreans with your wording and it came off bad when MLG was helping accommodate all teams.
With regards to the viewership for majors. It's been pretty consistent and DH had coverage from more outlets including Swedish National television. They have pretty good coverage. I'm still waiting to see the results of certain trade-offs. For example, the MLG partnership with the WWE from last year.
On April 05 2013 09:07 Wingblade wrote: This is ridiculous. I can understand the argument for protecting foreigners and giving them opportunities to win their own tournaments because they don't have the same environment, culture, and opportunities as Koreans. I get that.
But why in the blazes are we worried that the Code B, low-level Koreans aren't going to be protected by the WCS system??? Is there a reason I read some comments that the guy with the SAME training environment as the Code S guys should have a chance without having to move to NA. I'm looking at you Thrill. That makes ZERO sense. The guys in Korea, with the best training environment should not get our pity because they have the opportunity, and still can't compete with their countrymates. They don't need help. They couldn't compete in the past, at least now they can go to NA and beat up on American players.
You might want to read my filter in this thread. I mean I just answered that bloody question on the last page again. Getting tired of sounding like a broken record.
This Code S converted to WCS idea sounds pretty bad.. we have this season running, the best case scenario for a player in code b is to get to code s for the next season, which happens after the OSL season about half a year from now. So after next weeks qualifiers, the next time someone can qualify for GSL will only get you serious points for next year. There will be a couple more slots in the OSL as well, I'm not familiar with how many players they keep from the last season. But this pretty much means that every korean player who did not qualify for these 2 events by summer will have nothing impactful to play and practice for in the rest of the year. This creates a HUGE downtime for everyone who don't have the support to go to international events. To me this system looks like it will restrict the rise of new talented players almost completely, 2 GSL qualifiers instead of the 5 they had in 2012 gives a much slimmer chance for that pretty large group of players who'd like to make it. And we have this new game out now, the hots metagame is not really settled and who knows how will someone perform so many months later. In my opinion it would have been a better option to just drop the current rankings, thank everyone for playing in the pervious seasons in the GSL and OSL and do 3 completely separate tournaments with qualifiers for each, at least those would have the best players of those 2-3 months playing, now basically people will be riding the success of their 3 months old form all the way to Blizzcon. This was OK when we had a new GSL season every other month, but now we'll only have two for the year. From a spectator point of view, it feels like Korean SC2 has been scaled back immensely.
i definitely agree with mc that players should be region locked based on their home country. i fear that allowing the players to migrate and compete in another region would destroy the korean sc2 scene. not so much the kespa side of things as they are self-sustaining, but the esf one. i think that there are a lot of details we don't know about yet though so i'll just wait for more information. one thing i'm sure won't happen is esf agreeing to screw their players, so i'll hold my judgement until more info is released.
as for the na and eu regions having their own equivalent of gsl/wcs qualifier type of event with their own allocated prize pools, i think it's a good thing for sc2 as a whole, even though i'm not really gonna watch those
oh and props to sase and naniwa for their bold decision. they are true warriors, just like the race they play. i wish them both the best in korea *thumbs up*
To a degree, people are being upset over nothing. Ultimately, the WCS will bring more money and publicity to SC2 as a whole, and it simply makes sense to have a centralized tourney structure -- which is something that seemed impossible, with GSL and OSL competing with each other.
Could this have happened another way? The answer is, no, none of us have any reason to think this could have happened any other way. Have any of you negotiated with the all the various different pro-league ownerships? Do you not realize what a task it must have been to get them all to sign off on this? The fact that this is happening at all is an accomplishment in itself -- and the only way that GSL and all the other leagues would risk their entire existence on this is if there was good incentive ($$$). And the result, while complicated, is ultimately more money to the players, to the leagues, and a more comprehensive structure to the SC2 scene.
Face it, there isn't enough money generated by E-sports for it be spread around to everyone who feels they put in the work. Korea is unique in that it is able to support their wide player-base through team sponsors -- and the WCS doesn't change that. If we do want more money in E-sports, and more support for the players, then things like this need to happen. This is the kind of all-encompassing tournament that will bring in major advertisers. This is the kind of tourney that could find its way onto television. That's a great thing, that would never happen with the status-quo of the best players being fragmented between different leagues, OSL and GSL.
Yes, I do imagine that some Korean pro-gamers will have to debate whether to represent a different region, or risk not being able to participate in the WCS. And, as it is a more inclusive and competitive tourney -- the most competitive tourney yet -- some of the lower rung GSL players will simply not have a spot in the WCS. But it ultimately isn't going to impact them financially. They're still part of their team. They don't practice like they do because they want to be a Code A player, but because they want to eventually be Code S, where they really get paid. Code A has never been profitable simply for its winnings.
And no one should be coddled for their nationality -- because they're not Korean. Koreans have ten fingers just like the rest of us. Get results, get sponsors, or find a job. Practicing ten hours a day, or fourteen hours a day, it makes no difference if you don't win. You're either extraordinary, or you're not. A world tourney should make no exceptions.
It'd be great if foreigners could get the sponsor-support that Koreans do -- but how is that supposed to happen? Why would a company support a team of players just so they can partake in local tourneys with small viewerships? Companies want large viewership for their sponsor dollars. If a foreigner can actually make some results on the world stage, then maybe they could be a trend starter -- and this is an opportunity the WCS provides, quite wonderfully. What we see now is Koreans coming to MLG and stomping over everybody. I certainly wouldn't be the one to want to sponsor a foreign SC2 player. In this chicken-or-the-egg scenario, the results have to come first, not the sponsors.
If we have foreigners showing positive results in the WCS, that could really get people excited and pique a lot more interest in the SC2 scene as a whole. The WCS is a great opportunity for SC2 to grow into something more. But it's up to the players, especially the foreigners, to make something of it.
On April 05 2013 13:49 theMagus wrote: i definitely agree with mc that players should be region locked based on their home country. i fear this would destroy the korean sc2 scene.
I disagree, I think people should only be able to play in countries where they reside. Otherwise you have people like Demuslim and Forgg who commit to SC2 in a different environment and get punished for it. Living in the actual region during the duration of WCS is a commitment that should be allowed.
On April 05 2013 13:49 theMagus wrote: i definitely agree with mc that players should be region locked based on their home country. i fear this would destroy the korean sc2 scene.
I disagree, I think people should only be able to play in countries where they reside. Otherwise you have people like Demuslim and Forgg who commit to SC2 in a different environment and get punished for it. Living in the actual region during the duration of WCS is a commitment that should be allowed.
read my post again please, because i don't disagree with your first statement. (maybe i should edit it to be clearer) i do, however, disagree that players should be allowed to migrate and compete in a different region, solely because of what this can do to the korean sc2 scene. you can glean from the koreans' convo how this is impacting them already. no need to explain.
On April 05 2013 07:57 Daogin wrote: I don't really understand why people are being so judgemental about something that hasn't even gone on for more then a week, and is pretty much in a beta phase that is opted to change if needed.
I guess you are another one of those people who didn't really read Wax's post. Anyway, I've already reiterated the main points several times like several others. The fact it's only the first week is irrelevant. Part of the uproar has to do with the fact the Koreans aren't playing on equal footing based on the format where you have to be in Code S. A lot of players aren't in Code S and this season (cannot even really call it the GSL anymore because the WCS pretty much replaced it with the same format) thus they aren't eligible if they're code A/B. Furthermore they would have to forfeit their positioning in the Code B/A to lock in a different region. Not only that, but code S is based on what they did in WoL.
So basically the only beef is that people in code S didnt lose their seeds?
On April 05 2013 08:11 StarStruck wrote: Yes, it's only beta. Yes, we don't have all the information on qualifier points. What did we get from this? Free Twitch stream with OGN English casts (sorry to those subscribers who feel cheated). GSL/OSL got replaced with WCS. The money in Korea got worse because as it stands there are less opportunities there now with only 3 seasons. Blizzard gave EU and NA a stimulus package by putting more money in those scenes.
4 seasons/year. The total prize money distribution is not known yet. We dont know if there will be less prizemoney in korea yet. We dont know if there will be more non-WCS tourneys in korea.
Interesting arguments. Personally, I like the idea of regional qualifiers and I think that they should make it mandatory that you have spent x amount of time(several months?) in order to play in the WCS for that region. It's true that the NA and EU regions won't have the same skill level as KR but this could encourage them to work harder if they can get into WCS. WCS could be also a measuring bar between the skills of the different players. I'm just gonna wait and see how things go down first
On April 05 2013 04:56 ThomasjServo wrote: I think region locking the qualifiers is the hatchet rather than scalpel solution to this issue. With the stated goal of Blizzard in this being raising SC2's esports profile having Min Chul be the "European Champion," will raise a lot of eyebrows from those who may be tuning in for the first time or more casual viewers.
I would like to and do expect to see Koreans qualifying elsewhere but perhaps a cap on number of seeds for region crossing players is a more middle of the road fix?
Say each region has five open seeds you can apply for which are given out by lottery to ensure fairness. Not one of the five who gets to play on another server you can play on your native server. Doubtful that there would be many takers to play on KR I don't know what bearing this would have on practice or preparation but it seems moderately equitable while still allowing for some lesser known players to remain competitive and work their way up a bit.
It may be a hatchet job but I think the new format is fundamentally flawed. The game is played globally and trying to make it regional is really just cutting out the best players so that some no-name player can get hype behind them. The Koreans shouldn't be punished for putting in more effort and being dominant they should be rewarded.
It is a fundamentally flawed idea to have favoritism built into a tournament's structure.
Right now there is no favoritism in the tournament structure. If Koreans did get more spots this would be favoritism.
PCG: Is there going to be a points weighting for certain regions and competitions?
MM: It’ll be a flat playing field, and all players will have to earn their slots. But people can compete in whichever region they want. So you’ll probably get some people from Korea opting to play in regions outside of Korea. But each of the leagues will distribute the same number of points and the same monetary prize pool.
basically, I don't see any reason the code b player to compete against code s players, when they can choose foreigners and other code b's to beat
On April 05 2013 04:56 ThomasjServo wrote: I think region locking the qualifiers is the hatchet rather than scalpel solution to this issue. With the stated goal of Blizzard in this being raising SC2's esports profile having Min Chul be the "European Champion," will raise a lot of eyebrows from those who may be tuning in for the first time or more casual viewers.
I would like to and do expect to see Koreans qualifying elsewhere but perhaps a cap on number of seeds for region crossing players is a more middle of the road fix?
Say each region has five open seeds you can apply for which are given out by lottery to ensure fairness. Not one of the five who gets to play on another server you can play on your native server. Doubtful that there would be many takers to play on KR I don't know what bearing this would have on practice or preparation but it seems moderately equitable while still allowing for some lesser known players to remain competitive and work their way up a bit.
It may be a hatchet job but I think the new format is fundamentally flawed. The game is played globally and trying to make it regional is really just cutting out the best players so that some no-name player can get hype behind them. The Koreans shouldn't be punished for putting in more effort and being dominant they should be rewarded.
It is a fundamentally flawed idea to have favoritism built into a tournament's structure.
Right now there is no favoritism in the tournament structure. If Koreans did get more spots this would be favoritism.
The system was always going to have a rough start in Korea, since they have ongoing leagues like GSL. There was no real good way to do it, beyond making seperate leagues from the GSL, which is bad and devalues the events. It sucks for players trying to get into code A, but even code A will have WSC points up for grab. Blizzard can't make everyone happy with the system, but everyone has options.
Also, from last nights SotG, there are reports that GSL will have the largest prize pool(same amount of WCS money from Blizzard, but more from GOM), which makes its the more worthy tournament it should be. I think we will know more in the next few weeks.
I think people are overestimating the number of Koreans who will play in NA and EU regions. The fact that they would be locked out of GSL and OSL, the only prestigious leagues and what they've dreamed of, will deter them I would think. Of course only time will tell, and we're all just speculating right now, but I just have a feeling they'll stick with their own national and established individual leagues.
On April 05 2013 23:38 howLiN wrote: I thought you could still play in any non WCS tournament, like the MLG/IEM stops, DreamHacks, NASLs, Iron Squids, LoneStar Clashes, for WCS points?
Yes, that is fact. It is unclear about the WCS points and if they would be regional, but I would doubt that.
On April 05 2013 23:35 Doodsmack wrote: I think people are overestimating the number of Koreans who will play in NA and EU regions. The fact that they would be locked out of GSL and OSL, the only prestigious leagues and what they've dreamed of, will deter them I would think. Of course only time will tell, and we're all just speculating right now, but I just have a feeling they'll stick with their own national and established individual leagues.
Doesn't even matter, if they send 3 koreans to each region it would not be a shock if all 3 went through, depending on who they were of course. I just don't see the reasoning for having 5 spots in the 3 major regions if people can chose which region they want to play in? Just have 15 spots instead so people don't have to travel around the world to get a shot. They are just trying to fool the community into believing it will be some sort of a world tournament, when it's just gonna be another mini-gsl.
On April 05 2013 23:35 Doodsmack wrote: I think people are overestimating the number of Koreans who will play in NA and EU regions. The fact that they would be locked out of GSL and OSL, the only prestigious leagues and what they've dreamed of, will deter them I would think. Of course only time will tell, and we're all just speculating right now, but I just have a feeling they'll stick with their own national and established individual leagues.
The most likely Koreans to come over and ones that do not qualify for Code A and don’t have Korean teams with Korean sponsors(per Artosis on SotG). Those players are no where near unbeatable by a top level NA player with enough practice and from what CatZ said(more SotG), Root plans to thrown down hard. If anything, those Code B players coming over will be good for the NA players and give them cause to practice like never before. And with constant games and a set GSL-like structure, players are going to be able to bore down to specific match ups.
I am willing to bet in the first few month or so, we will see who practices more in NA very quickly.
On April 06 2013 00:11 llIH wrote: Everyone envy Polt now? :D Funny he is one of the few with an education in his back pocket as well
He can see into the future!
But I agree with the notion that many code-b players will attempt to qualify in NA. More than likely they won't bother with EU (and if they do, their latency will be god awful), but foreigners can beat, or at least, certainly COMPETE with code-b koreans. So I'm not so worried from the foreigner point of view... I'm more worried on the korean point of view.
Like MC said, it's a really awful situation to be in, if you're not in code S. I'd be pissed if I was one of those players. My choices would be either exclusion from the first season or two while I try to claw my way into code S, or play on NA and pay my own way out there for the RO16. Considering most korean teams make shit salary (B teamers especially). And that we didn't see nearly as many koreans traveling abroad until tournaments started covering travel fees (IE: Their travel budget must be pretty slim), I don't know if I'd be ready to slap down 2k+ for air fare and hotel fees (from my own pocket) for a CHANCE at winning a tournament.
I hope blizzard gets this stuff figured out for the next year. Having it be separate is so much better in every way.
On April 06 2013 00:11 llIH wrote: Everyone envy Polt now? :D Funny he is one of the few with an education in his back pocket as well
He can see into the future!
But I agree with the notion that many code-b players will attempt to qualify in NA. More than likely they won't bother with EU (and if they do, their latency will be god awful), but foreigners can beat, or at least, certainly COMPETE with code-b koreans. So I'm not so worried from the foreigner point of view... I'm more worried on the korean point of view.
Like MC said, it's a really awful situation to be in, if you're not in code S. I'd be pissed if I was one of those players. My choices would be either exclusion from the first season or two while I try to claw my way into code S, or play on NA and pay my own way out there for the RO16. Considering most korean teams make shit salary (B teamers especially). And that we didn't see nearly as many koreans traveling abroad until tournaments started covering travel fees (IE: Their travel budget must be pretty slim), I don't know if I'd be ready to slap down 2k+ for air fare and hotel fees (from my own pocket) for a CHANCE at winning a tournament.
I hope blizzard gets this stuff figured out for the next year. Having it be separate is so much better in every way.
Blizzard will and there next year will likely have better rules and more notice for players when they can sign up for each region. The main reason this year is so open is that it was announced 5 days before the code A qualifiers. Players need time to make big decisions like that.
Also, the investment that a Korean player would need to compete in the NA is way less than an NA player would need to make to practice in Korea. Then the NA player would need to fly back to compete against Koreans in MLG. Plus, once a player gets to the round of 16 for NA, I am willing to be they can find someone to sponsor the trip to the regional finals.
On April 05 2013 23:38 howLiN wrote: I thought you could still play in any non WCS tournament, like the MLG/IEM stops, DreamHacks, NASLs, Iron Squids, LoneStar Clashes, for WCS points?
Yes, that is fact. It is unclear about the WCS points and if they would be regional, but I would doubt that.
I don't really understand the problem then, because the only thing it was added were two GSL-like tournaments to the NA and the EU scenes. What's the big problem for Koreans then, given that they can still pretty much attend any tournament they want to just like in previous years?
On April 05 2013 23:35 Doodsmack wrote: I think people are overestimating the number of Koreans who will play in NA and EU regions. The fact that they would be locked out of GSL and OSL, the only prestigious leagues and what they've dreamed of, will deter them I would think. Of course only time will tell, and we're all just speculating right now, but I just have a feeling they'll stick with their own national and established individual leagues.
GSL and OSL are prestigious because they were by themselves the crowning achievement. But now, they are the 'regular season' for WCS. It is like winning the premier league in England or La Liga in Spain, sure, it is still prestigious but Champions League is THE title. You could argue that WCS Korea was tougher than WCS global. But more people remember PartInG's win more than Creator's.
On April 05 2013 23:38 howLiN wrote: I thought you could still play in any non WCS tournament, like the MLG/IEM stops, DreamHacks, NASLs, Iron Squids, LoneStar Clashes, for WCS points?
Yes, that is fact. It is unclear about the WCS points and if they would be regional, but I would doubt that.
I don't really understand the problem then, because the only thing it was added were two GSL-like tournaments to the NA and the EU scenes. What's the big problem for Koreans then, given that they can still pretty much attend any tournament they want to just like in previous years?
They are upset that they need to wait several seasons if they aren't already in Code S. Someone in code B today couldn't compete in a regional season until season 3 because of the way GSL works. It is sort of sour grapes for people who already have a great thing in GSL that was only improved with more options and prize money.
MC is 100% right and this is really unfair for Koreans. "Let the best win" is history in SC2
If wee look what is going on in other sports, it will be obvious what blizzard did is unfair. A good example will be Champions league in Europe for soccer. This is an international tournament and as it name implies it is a tournament where champions from each country attend to be the "European champion of champions". Now, the crucial bit is not every country is equal some countries send their top 4-5 teams from their own national league such as England, Spain, Italy whereas countries like Romania can only send their national champion, i.e. a single team. Why? Because no Romanian team did well in champions league so their country points is very low compared to Spain where Real Madrid and Barcelona won like 15 times....
So, in my opinion, Korea should be able to send 5 people to world wide tournament whereas US should send only 2 or so.
Or it can be like tennis, where each tournament gives a certain point to players but some tournaments are grand slams (GSL) but some are just 1000 point events, some are 500 point events........
On April 06 2013 00:11 llIH wrote: Everyone envy Polt now? :D Funny he is one of the few with an education in his back pocket as well
He can see into the future!
But I agree with the notion that many code-b players will attempt to qualify in NA. More than likely they won't bother with EU (and if they do, their latency will be god awful), but foreigners can beat, or at least, certainly COMPETE with code-b koreans. So I'm not so worried from the foreigner point of view... I'm more worried on the korean point of view.
Like MC said, it's a really awful situation to be in, if you're not in code S. I'd be pissed if I was one of those players. My choices would be either exclusion from the first season or two while I try to claw my way into code S, or play on NA and pay my own way out there for the RO16. Considering most korean teams make shit salary (B teamers especially). And that we didn't see nearly as many koreans traveling abroad until tournaments started covering travel fees (IE: Their travel budget must be pretty slim), I don't know if I'd be ready to slap down 2k+ for air fare and hotel fees (from my own pocket) for a CHANCE at winning a tournament.
I hope blizzard gets this stuff figured out for the next year. Having it be separate is so much better in every way.
Also, the investment that a Korean player would need to compete in the NA is way less than an NA player would need to make to practice in Korea. Then the NA player would need to fly back to compete against Koreans in MLG. Plus, once a player gets to the round of 16 for NA, I am willing to be they can find someone to sponsor the trip to the regional finals.
While that may be true, that's neither here nor there, since no north american is going to try to qualify for the korean WCS, for many reasons besides the financial. And the ones that do are already situated in that region comfortably (IE: EG guys, Scarlett, etc.), or CAN be (teamliquid, other acer teammates, FXO), and won't have to pay a dime out of their pockets to get there.
But yeah, you're right. Blizzard is more than likely going to change stuff up so this works better next year. It'll be good from a spectator point of view regardless of the issues for players.
On April 06 2013 00:46 foxmulder_ms wrote: MC is 100% right and this is really unfair for Koreans. "Let the best win" is history in SC2
If wee look what is going on in other sports, it will be obvious what blizzard did is unfair. A good example will be Champions league in Europe for soccer. This is an international tournament and as it name implies it is a tournament where champions from each country attend to be the "European champion of champions". Now, the crucial bit is not every country is equal some countries send their top 4-5 teams from their own national league such as England, Spain, Italy whereas countries like Romania can only send their national champion, i.e. a single team. Why? Because no Romanian team did well in champions league so their country points is very low compared to Spain where Real Madrid and Barcelona won like 15 times....
So, in my opinion, Korea should be able to send 5 people to world wide tournament whereas US should send only 2 or so.
Or it can be like tennis, where each tournament gives a certain point to players but some tournaments are grand slams (GSL) but some are just 1000 point events, some are 500 point events........
This argument has already been brought up and it has been pointed out that soccer is the worst example to say why the WCS is bad. I use the quote below:
On April 05 2013 06:07 Abominous wrote: Soccer analogy is just bad. Look at FIFAs world cup club competition, only one European club and we all know how dominant Europe is in soccer. (in terms of clubs) Same goes for World Cup for national teams, only South America can cope with Europe, and European cup is considered a lot more difficult than the World Cup.
I just hope it remains this way and somehow they prevent Koreans from farming other regions.
my thoughts exactly. EU only gets one direct seed per qualification group for the World Cup. France/Spain should totally complain about it. I can totally understand the koreans being upset, but making a point with football is completely wrong, it is the sport where certain region gets fucked to reach better diversity
On April 06 2013 00:46 foxmulder_ms wrote: MC is 100% right and this is really unfair for Koreans. "Let the best win" is history in SC2
If wee look what is going on in other sports, it will be obvious what blizzard did is unfair. A good example will be Champions league in Europe for soccer. This is an international tournament and as it name implies it is a tournament where champions from each country attend to be the "European champion of champions". Now, the crucial bit is not every country is equal some countries send their top 4-5 teams from their own national league such as England, Spain, Italy whereas countries like Romania can only send their national champion, i.e. a single team. Why? Because no Romanian team did well in champions league so their country points is very low compared to Spain where Real Madrid and Barcelona won like 15 times....
So, in my opinion, Korea should be able to send 5 people to world wide tournament whereas US should send only 2 or so.
Or it can be like tennis, where each tournament gives a certain point to players but some tournaments are grand slams (GSL) but some are just 1000 point events, some are 500 point events........
This argument has already been brought up and it has been pointed out that soccer is the worst example to say why the WCS is bad. I use the quote below:
Please don't write about subjects you don't know. It is same case for World Cup with Champions league. Europe sends 13 teams whereas Asia sends only 4 teams. !!!!!
On April 06 2013 00:46 foxmulder_ms wrote: MC is 100% right and this is really unfair for Koreans. "Let the best win" is history in SC2
If wee look what is going on in other sports, it will be obvious what blizzard did is unfair. A good example will be Champions league in Europe for soccer. This is an international tournament and as it name implies it is a tournament where champions from each country attend to be the "European champion of champions". Now, the crucial bit is not every country is equal some countries send their top 4-5 teams from their own national league such as England, Spain, Italy whereas countries like Romania can only send their national champion, i.e. a single team. Why? Because no Romanian team did well in champions league so their country points is very low compared to Spain where Real Madrid and Barcelona won like 15 times....
So, in my opinion, Korea should be able to send 5 people to world wide tournament whereas US should send only 2 or so.
Or it can be like tennis, where each tournament gives a certain point to players but some tournaments are grand slams (GSL) but some are just 1000 point events, some are 500 point events........
This argument has already been brought up and it has been pointed out that soccer is the worst example to say why the WCS is bad. I use the quote below:
On April 05 2013 06:07 Abominous wrote: Soccer analogy is just bad. Look at FIFAs world cup club competition, only one European club and we all know how dominant Europe is in soccer. (in terms of clubs) Same goes for World Cup for national teams, only South America can cope with Europe, and European cup is considered a lot more difficult than the World Cup.
I just hope it remains this way and somehow they prevent Koreans from farming other regions.
my thoughts exactly. EU only gets one direct seed per qualification group for the World Cup. France/Spain should totally complain about it. I can totally understand the koreans being upset, but making a point with football is completely wrong, it is the sport where certain region gets fucked to reach better diversity
Europe has a shit-ton of qualification groups though. Other continents don't.
On April 06 2013 00:46 foxmulder_ms wrote: MC is 100% right and this is really unfair for Koreans. "Let the best win" is history in SC2
If wee look what is going on in other sports, it will be obvious what blizzard did is unfair. A good example will be Champions league in Europe for soccer. This is an international tournament and as it name implies it is a tournament where champions from each country attend to be the "European champion of champions". Now, the crucial bit is not every country is equal some countries send their top 4-5 teams from their own national league such as England, Spain, Italy whereas countries like Romania can only send their national champion, i.e. a single team. Why? Because no Romanian team did well in champions league so their country points is very low compared to Spain where Real Madrid and Barcelona won like 15 times....
So, in my opinion, Korea should be able to send 5 people to world wide tournament whereas US should send only 2 or so.
Or it can be like tennis, where each tournament gives a certain point to players but some tournaments are grand slams (GSL) but some are just 1000 point events, some are 500 point events........
This argument has already been brought up and it has been pointed out that soccer is the worst example to say why the WCS is bad. I use the quote below:
Please don't write about subjects you don't know. It is same case for World Cup with Champions league. Europe send 13 teams whereas Asia sends only 4 teams. !!!!!
But they still get to send teams, even though they are terrible by comparison. In fact, there are some regions who shouldn't be able to send a team at all.
But the World Championship(at the end of the year) is determined by points alone. Region doesn't factor in when at the end.
On April 06 2013 00:46 foxmulder_ms wrote: MC is 100% right and this is really unfair for Koreans. "Let the best win" is history in SC2
If wee look what is going on in other sports, it will be obvious what blizzard did is unfair. A good example will be Champions league in Europe for soccer. This is an international tournament and as it name implies it is a tournament where champions from each country attend to be the "European champion of champions". Now, the crucial bit is not every country is equal some countries send their top 4-5 teams from their own national league such as England, Spain, Italy whereas countries like Romania can only send their national champion, i.e. a single team. Why? Because no Romanian team did well in champions league so their country points is very low compared to Spain where Real Madrid and Barcelona won like 15 times....
So, in my opinion, Korea should be able to send 5 people to world wide tournament whereas US should send only 2 or so.
Or it can be like tennis, where each tournament gives a certain point to players but some tournaments are grand slams (GSL) but some are just 1000 point events, some are 500 point events........
This argument has already been brought up and it has been pointed out that soccer is the worst example to say why the WCS is bad. I use the quote below:
Please don't write about subjects you don't know. It is same case for World Cup with Champions league. Europe send 13 teams whereas Asia sends only 4 teams. !!!!!
But they still get to send teams, even though they are terrible by comparison. In fact, there are some regions who shouldn't be able to send a team at all.
But the World Championship(at the end of the year) is determined by points alone. Region doesn't factor in when at the end.
Duh.... 13 vs 4 dude! Please stop arguing just for the sake of arguing. Especially dont write about stuff you dont know. That's just annoying. How many soccer tournaments you have even watched? In sports your previous success counts. North America =/= Korea. This is unfair.
On April 06 2013 00:46 foxmulder_ms wrote: MC is 100% right and this is really unfair for Koreans. "Let the best win" is history in SC2
If wee look what is going on in other sports, it will be obvious what blizzard did is unfair. A good example will be Champions league in Europe for soccer. This is an international tournament and as it name implies it is a tournament where champions from each country attend to be the "European champion of champions". Now, the crucial bit is not every country is equal some countries send their top 4-5 teams from their own national league such as England, Spain, Italy whereas countries like Romania can only send their national champion, i.e. a single team. Why? Because no Romanian team did well in champions league so their country points is very low compared to Spain where Real Madrid and Barcelona won like 15 times....
So, in my opinion, Korea should be able to send 5 people to world wide tournament whereas US should send only 2 or so.
Or it can be like tennis, where each tournament gives a certain point to players but some tournaments are grand slams (GSL) but some are just 1000 point events, some are 500 point events........
This argument has already been brought up and it has been pointed out that soccer is the worst example to say why the WCS is bad. I use the quote below:
Please don't write about subjects you don't know. It is same case for World Cup with Champions league. Europe send 13 teams whereas Asia sends only 4 teams. !!!!!
But they still get to send teams, even though they are terrible by comparison. In fact, there are some regions who shouldn't be able to send a team at all.
But the World Championship(at the end of the year) is determined by points alone. Region doesn't factor in when at the end.
I think the point is that a global competition should have representation from all over the world. Nobody has a problem with that. What people have a problem with is that this representation isn't taking into account the OBVIOUS disparity in competitors. And please, do tell: what regions shouldn't be allowed to send a team at all? Do you even watch soccer? There are teams from every continent that have progressed deep enough into the World Cup to be considered relevant competitors.
It's kinda like the Champions League: they use a coefficient to allot slots to each country in order that everyone gets some representation but leagues with multiple high-level contenders don't get screwed by having to select only one. The point of a global world championship is to find the best player in the world. Naturally this means there need to be qualifiers everywhere, but if there are 15 competitive players in Korea who all have a shot at the title, it makes more sense for the Korean region to be allotted more slots than, say, the African region.
On April 06 2013 00:46 foxmulder_ms wrote: MC is 100% right and this is really unfair for Koreans. "Let the best win" is history in SC2
If wee look what is going on in other sports, it will be obvious what blizzard did is unfair. A good example will be Champions league in Europe for soccer. This is an international tournament and as it name implies it is a tournament where champions from each country attend to be the "European champion of champions". Now, the crucial bit is not every country is equal some countries send their top 4-5 teams from their own national league such as England, Spain, Italy whereas countries like Romania can only send their national champion, i.e. a single team. Why? Because no Romanian team did well in champions league so their country points is very low compared to Spain where Real Madrid and Barcelona won like 15 times....
So, in my opinion, Korea should be able to send 5 people to world wide tournament whereas US should send only 2 or so.
Or it can be like tennis, where each tournament gives a certain point to players but some tournaments are grand slams (GSL) but some are just 1000 point events, some are 500 point events........
This argument has already been brought up and it has been pointed out that soccer is the worst example to say why the WCS is bad. I use the quote below:
Please don't write about subjects you don't know. It is same case for World Cup with Champions league. Europe send 13 teams whereas Asia sends only 4 teams. !!!!!
But they still get to send teams, even though they are terrible by comparison. In fact, there are some regions who shouldn't be able to send a team at all.
But the World Championship(at the end of the year) is determined by points alone. Region doesn't factor in when at the end.
Duh.... 13 vs 4 dude! Please stop arguing just for the sake of arguing. Especially dont write about stuff you dont know. That's just annoying. How many soccer tournaments you have even watched? In sports your previous success counts. North America =/= Korea. This is unfair.
All right I will concede the soccer point because I lack the personal knowledge to back it up. However, other people in the thread have said it is an improper analogy.
So you are saying at the end of every season, NA should only get to send 2 players because we have worse players? How does that help anyone but the area that is given more slots? The WCS system isn't about being fair, its about growing the competition in specific areas. The Korean players have received enough advantages from MLG over the last year and a half that were totally unfair, like special brackets for them and Kespa players, free flights and seeds into the groups stage. I didn't see anyone sticking up for the NA players then saying it was unfair. Or when MLG created an entire tournament just to make sure the Kespa players could be seeded into groups and avoid the open bracket. No one complained when that BS was floated in front of us like it was somehow fair to the people diving through the open bracket.
Just because NA players get the same number of slots does not mean the system is unfair. If Korean players want more slots, they can sign up for NA this year.
I'm fine with the slot allocation, since the aim is to help grow NA/EU rather than be a true World Championship. The skill pool for GSL / Korea WCS is probaly going to be higher than the actual WCS Final.
On April 05 2013 23:38 howLiN wrote: I thought you could still play in any non WCS tournament, like the MLG/IEM stops, DreamHacks, NASLs, Iron Squids, LoneStar Clashes, for WCS points?
Yes, that is fact. It is unclear about the WCS points and if they would be regional, but I would doubt that.
I don't really understand the problem then, because the only thing it was added were two GSL-like tournaments to the NA and the EU scenes. What's the big problem for Koreans then, given that they can still pretty much attend any tournament they want to just like in previous years?
They are upset that they need to wait several seasons if they aren't already in Code S. Someone in code B today couldn't compete in a regional season until season 3 because of the way GSL works. It is sort of sour grapes for people who already have a great thing in GSL that was only improved with more options and prize money.
Well, they couldn't before if they weren't able to qualify into Code A so there's really virtually no difference.
The only thing that can be pointed out is how there's no GSL and OSL running simultaneously anymore, but considering OSL only had one SC2 season so far that hardly matters.
On April 06 2013 00:46 foxmulder_ms wrote: MC is 100% right and this is really unfair for Koreans. "Let the best win" is history in SC2
If wee look what is going on in other sports, it will be obvious what blizzard did is unfair. A good example will be Champions league in Europe for soccer. This is an international tournament and as it name implies it is a tournament where champions from each country attend to be the "European champion of champions". Now, the crucial bit is not every country is equal some countries send their top 4-5 teams from their own national league such as England, Spain, Italy whereas countries like Romania can only send their national champion, i.e. a single team. Why? Because no Romanian team did well in champions league so their country points is very low compared to Spain where Real Madrid and Barcelona won like 15 times....
So, in my opinion, Korea should be able to send 5 people to world wide tournament whereas US should send only 2 or so.
Or it can be like tennis, where each tournament gives a certain point to players but some tournaments are grand slams (GSL) but some are just 1000 point events, some are 500 point events........
This argument has already been brought up and it has been pointed out that soccer is the worst example to say why the WCS is bad. I use the quote below:
Please don't write about subjects you don't know. It is same case for World Cup with Champions league. Europe send 13 teams whereas Asia sends only 4 teams. !!!!!
But they still get to send teams, even though they are terrible by comparison. In fact, there are some regions who shouldn't be able to send a team at all.
But the World Championship(at the end of the year) is determined by points alone. Region doesn't factor in when at the end.
Duh.... 13 vs 4 dude! Please stop arguing just for the sake of arguing. Especially dont write about stuff you dont know. That's just annoying. How many soccer tournaments you have even watched? In sports your previous success counts. North America =/= Korea. This is unfair.
All right I will concede the soccer point because I lack the personal knowledge to back it up. However, other people in the thread have said it is an improper analogy.
So you are saying at the end of every season, NA should only get to send 2 players because we have worse players? How does that help anyone but the area that is given more slots? The WCS system isn't about being fair, its about growing the competition in specific areas. The Korean players have received enough advantages from MLG over the last year and a half that were totally unfair, like special brackets for them and Kespa players, free flights and seeds into the groups stage. I didn't see anyone sticking up for the NA players then saying it was unfair. Or when MLG created an entire tournament just to make sure the Kespa players could be seeded into groups and avoid the open bracket. No one complained when that BS was floated in front of us like it was somehow fair to the people diving through the open bracket.
Just because NA players get the same number of slots does not mean the system is unfair. If Korean players want more slots, they can sign up for NA this year.
Pretty sure everyone complained about the separate KeSPA bracket. Nobody complained about Koreans getting seeds to MLG events because they a) deserved them and b) were generally awarded based on prior MLG performance and/or GSL performance. It wasn't like MLG just picked 5 random Koreans. And how has this been unfair to NA? NA has a smaller pool of talent, ergo they should receive fewer invites. It's pretty simple.
Asking Koreans to sign up for NA is pretty stupid if you consider that there are a tonne of Code A/S players who want to be playing in the GSL but also have the skill to be a contender for WCS. It doesn't make sense that a continent whose best players aren't even on par with some of the lower end Code S players is getting equal representation in the finals. Can you imagine if Fifa decided to take Europe's berths and spread them out to NA, Africa, and Asia? There would be fucking riots in the streets because it's so retarded.
You can not have a fair tournament based on region or race. Why would I want to watch Americans or Europeans play if I knew that they replaced Koreans who would've been there , based on skill, if allowed to be there. I'd rather see 100% Koreans in all tournaments if they could win all of the qualifiers rather than this affermitive action be. This phoney competition only cheapens the game as a sport. People se through the manipulations of the competitive scene. Teenagers might like seeing homegrown competitors, but I don't watch anything but GSL presisely because everything else is minor league. Now its all phoney. A big *
On April 06 2013 00:46 foxmulder_ms wrote: MC is 100% right and this is really unfair for Koreans. "Let the best win" is history in SC2
If wee look what is going on in other sports, it will be obvious what blizzard did is unfair. A good example will be Champions league in Europe for soccer. This is an international tournament and as it name implies it is a tournament where champions from each country attend to be the "European champion of champions". Now, the crucial bit is not every country is equal some countries send their top 4-5 teams from their own national league such as England, Spain, Italy whereas countries like Romania can only send their national champion, i.e. a single team. Why? Because no Romanian team did well in champions league so their country points is very low compared to Spain where Real Madrid and Barcelona won like 15 times....
So, in my opinion, Korea should be able to send 5 people to world wide tournament whereas US should send only 2 or so.
Or it can be like tennis, where each tournament gives a certain point to players but some tournaments are grand slams (GSL) but some are just 1000 point events, some are 500 point events........
This argument has already been brought up and it has been pointed out that soccer is the worst example to say why the WCS is bad. I use the quote below:
Please don't write about subjects you don't know. It is same case for World Cup with Champions league. Europe send 13 teams whereas Asia sends only 4 teams. !!!!!
But they still get to send teams, even though they are terrible by comparison. In fact, there are some regions who shouldn't be able to send a team at all.
But the World Championship(at the end of the year) is determined by points alone. Region doesn't factor in when at the end.
Duh.... 13 vs 4 dude! Please stop arguing just for the sake of arguing. Especially dont write about stuff you dont know. That's just annoying. How many soccer tournaments you have even watched? In sports your previous success counts. North America =/= Korea. This is unfair.
All right I will concede the soccer point because I lack the personal knowledge to back it up. However, other people in the thread have said it is an improper analogy.
So you are saying at the end of every season, NA should only get to send 2 players because we have worse players? How does that help anyone but the area that is given more slots? The WCS system isn't about being fair, its about growing the competition in specific areas. The Korean players have received enough advantages from MLG over the last year and a half that were totally unfair, like special brackets for them and Kespa players, free flights and seeds into the groups stage. I didn't see anyone sticking up for the NA players then saying it was unfair. Or when MLG created an entire tournament just to make sure the Kespa players could be seeded into groups and avoid the open bracket. No one complained when that BS was floated in front of us like it was somehow fair to the people diving through the open bracket.
Just because NA players get the same number of slots does not mean the system is unfair. If Korean players want more slots, they can sign up for NA this year.
Pretty sure everyone complained about the separate KeSPA bracket. Nobody complained about Koreans getting seeds to MLG events because they a) deserved them and b) were generally awarded based on prior MLG performance and/or GSL performance. It wasn't like MLG just picked 5 random Koreans. And how has this been unfair to NA? NA has a smaller pool of talent, ergo they should receive fewer invites. It's pretty simple.
Asking Koreans to sign up for NA is pretty stupid if you consider that there are a tonne of Code A/S players who want to be playing in the GSL but also have the skill to be a contender for WCS. It doesn't make sense that a continent whose best players aren't even on par with some of the lower end Code S players is getting equal representation in the finals. Can you imagine if Fifa decided to take Europe's berths and spread them out to NA, Africa, and Asia? There would be fucking riots in the streets because it's so retarded.
If SC2 were a completely established scene with a robust base to support growth in each region, like soccer, I would agree with you. But it isn’t . There is literally nothing for NA to compete for at this point that is even mildly obtainable. It isn’t NA fault the GSL is stacked and has so much talent that they are literally overflowing with players and its not the job of the WCS to provide “welfare”(to use the language commonly used for seeds for NA players) slots for Korean players in code A and B.
The reason I get so irritated about this issue is that people come out of the woodwork when a single Korean player complaints about some rule that doesn’t benefit them. But if an NA player complaints about something, the community just says “practice harder and qualify for code S”. MLG was bending over backward to seed players into the group stages and people are ok with it. But Nani’wa and Stephano receive seeds into the GSL and people refer to them as welfare seeds, even though Nani’wa got to the round of 8 twice.
Leagues bend over backwards to make sure that some Korean players have all expensive paid trips, can qualify from Korea in their own bracket and are seeded directly into groups stage and its fine because they are so skilled. But NA gets the same number of slots as Korea and suddenly the world is an unfair place and the Koreans are being screwed over.
On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote: Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
Yes it should be this way. Are you going to force me to buy a domestic car when I really want a superior import. If you don't like the koreans winning, get better. Take your affermative action elsewhere.
On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote: Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
Yes it should be this way. Are you going to force me to buy a domestic car when I really want a superior import. If you don't like the koreans winning, get better. Take your affermative action elsewhere.
I am for this. End welfare seeds to MLG for Korean players from rich teams that can afford to fly them to there.
I wish the regions would just get locked. So people who want to watch shitty gameplay from Idra and Goswser because they're native English speakers can stick to that, thus filtering them out from the pool of really good Korean players.
If I had it my way. It'd be 48 spots in the finals, 47 to Koreans, and 1 to the best foreigner. That way only somebody that can actually beat Koreans like Naniwa or MaNa would make it.
On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote: Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
Yes it should be this way. Are you going to force me to buy a domestic car when I really want a superior import. If you don't like the koreans winning, get better. Take your affermative action elsewhere.
I am for this. End welfare seeds to MLG for Korean players from rich teams that can afford to fly them to there.
It'll be interesting to see what the teams do. IMO, if I was the head of a team, I'd spread my players out across all regions for less chance of a team kill and more chances to make more money overall in the tournament.
On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote: Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
Yes it should be this way. Are you going to force me to buy a domestic car when I really want a superior import. If you don't like the koreans winning, get better. Take your affermative action elsewhere.
I am for this. End welfare seeds to MLG for Korean players from rich teams that can afford to fly them to there.
Plansix this thread is feeding you posts ):<
Yeah, that may be true, but my irritation is that high right now. The community has the collective memory of a gold fish and forgets stuff like the Kespa only bracket for the last MLG of 2012. They whine about seeds in to the GSL that they do to boost viewer numbers, but MGL can roll out the red carpet for Kespa players right into the open bracket to do the same thing.
And all of this would be fine because the Koreans are that good, but then people demand that NA players are lazy, should practice harder and WCS is unfair because Koreans should get more slots.
Having this thing not be region locked is actually horrible. And it's so easy to define a rule based on some residency period or whatever... Having it not be region locked actually defeats the whole purpose of having three separate leagues. As much as I prefer top level play (and top end Koreans deliver that), I really have no interest in having the EU/NA regions being filled by lower level Koreans.
On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote: Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
Yes it should be this way. Are you going to force me to buy a domestic car when I really want a superior import. If you don't like the koreans winning, get better. Take your affermative action elsewhere.
I am for this. End welfare seeds to MLG for Korean players from rich teams that can afford to fly them to there.
Plansix this thread is feeding you posts ):<
Yeah, that may be true, but my irritation is that high right now. The community has the collective memory of a gold fish and forgets stuff like the Kespa only bracket for the last MLG of 2012. They whine about seeds in to the GSL that they do to boost viewer numbers, but MGL can roll out the red carpet for Kespa players right into the open bracket to do the same thing.
And all of this would be fine because the Koreans are that good, but then people demand that NA players are lazy, should practice harder and WCS is unfair because Koreans should get more slots.
The fuck?
The "community" is not the same person. The reason hypocrisy exists in your mind is because there are always two sides to an argument. If you assume the people arguing are the same (they're not) then you'll definitely see this.
There probably are people who are as you describe, but you need to target them specifically rather than hate on the "community."
On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote: Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
Yes it should be this way. Are you going to force me to buy a domestic car when I really want a superior import. If you don't like the koreans winning, get better. Take your affermative action elsewhere.
I am for this. End welfare seeds to MLG for Korean players from rich teams that can afford to fly them to there.
Plansix this thread is feeding you posts ):<
Yeah, that may be true, but my irritation is that high right now. The community has the collective memory of a gold fish and forgets stuff like the Kespa only bracket for the last MLG of 2012. They whine about seeds in to the GSL that they do to boost viewer numbers, but MGL can roll out the red carpet for Kespa players right into the open bracket to do the same thing.
And all of this would be fine because the Koreans are that good, but then people demand that NA players are lazy, should practice harder and WCS is unfair because Koreans should get more slots.
The fuck?
The "community" is not the same person. The reason hypocrisy exists in your mind is because there are always two sides to an argument. If you assume the people arguing are the same (they're not) then you'll definitely see this.
There probably are people who are as you describe, but you need to target them specifically rather than hate on the "community."
Of course the community isn't one person. When I am talking about people with selective or short memories, I am clearly referencing the members who say silly things and forget context or history. It would take a really long time to name all of those people one at a time.
On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote: Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
Yes it should be this way. Are you going to force me to buy a domestic car when I really want a superior import. If you don't like the koreans winning, get better. Take your affermative action elsewhere.
I am for this. End welfare seeds to MLG for Korean players from rich teams that can afford to fly them to there.
Plansix this thread is feeding you posts ):<
Yeah, that may be true, but my irritation is that high right now. The community has the collective memory of a gold fish and forgets stuff like the Kespa only bracket for the last MLG of 2012. They whine about seeds in to the GSL that they do to boost viewer numbers, but MGL can roll out the red carpet for Kespa players right into the open bracket to do the same thing.
And all of this would be fine because the Koreans are that good, but then people demand that NA players are lazy, should practice harder and WCS is unfair because Koreans should get more slots.
Phoney competition is not entertaining. I'll use your stretegy here. "We" don't want to watch Americans or Europeans compete. They suck. And seeding them in to tourneys they can't win is bs. Paying for real talent to play in a tournament can only add value to it. Seeding lesser talent diminishes value.
I didn't like this format. It's pretty unfair with the koreans, the code A players can stomp basically 99% of the foreigners eating a big mac with no problem.
On April 05 2013 05:10 playa wrote: I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
really though?
i don't know how much foreigners practice, but i doubt most practice 10 hours a day.
more importantly though, Mike Morhaime is the CEO of a big, successful company and has been for a fairly long time. i think he knows what working hard means, plus that's a real job. progamers get to live off of playing a game most of them enjoy playing in the first place and travel the world, and then they bitch about it. i'm all for something that improves the scene everywhere in the world (including Korea), but this is getting a bit ridiculous.
On April 06 2013 03:08 Scotch111 wrote: You can not have a fair tournament based on region or race. Why would I want to watch Americans or Europeans play if I knew that they replaced Koreans who would've been there , based on skill, if allowed to be there. I'd rather see 100% Koreans in all tournaments if they could win all of the qualifiers rather than this affermitive action be. This phoney competition only cheapens the game as a sport. People se through the manipulations of the competitive scene. Teenagers might like seeing homegrown competitors, but I don't watch anything but GSL presisely because everything else is minor league. Now its all phoney. A big *
in an ideal world, i would agree with you 100%. unfortunately, it's not an ideal world. we have to throw the underdogs a bone to keep them and their fan base from just completely disappearing. it's sad, really. one thing is for sure though: i would never see wcs as the most prestigious tournament, even if it potentially has the biggest prize pool. i see it more as a compromise for the greater good of sc2.
On April 06 2013 03:08 Scotch111 wrote: You can not have a fair tournament based on region or race. Why would I want to watch Americans or Europeans play if I knew that they replaced Koreans who would've been there , based on skill, if allowed to be there. I'd rather see 100% Koreans in all tournaments if they could win all of the qualifiers rather than this affermitive action be. This phoney competition only cheapens the game as a sport. People se through the manipulations of the competitive scene. Teenagers might like seeing homegrown competitors, but I don't watch anything but GSL presisely because everything else is minor league. Now its all phoney. A big *
in an ideal world, i would agree with you 100%. unfortunately, it's not an ideal world. we have to throw the underdogs a bone to keep them and their fan base from just completely disappearing. it's sad, really. one thing is for sure though: i would never see wcs as the most prestigious tournament, even if it potentially has the biggest prize pool. i see it more as a compromise for the greater good of sc2.
IMO protectionist policies are counter productive and breed complacency. Why would NA/EU players need to try any harder if their current skill level is good enough to win them tournaments in their region and keep their progaming career going? People are created equal so Koreans dominating everything isn't a matter of race, it's the training culture and a case of steel sharpens steel.
On April 06 2013 03:08 Scotch111 wrote: You can not have a fair tournament based on region or race. Why would I want to watch Americans or Europeans play if I knew that they replaced Koreans who would've been there , based on skill, if allowed to be there. I'd rather see 100% Koreans in all tournaments if they could win all of the qualifiers rather than this affermitive action be. This phoney competition only cheapens the game as a sport. People se through the manipulations of the competitive scene. Teenagers might like seeing homegrown competitors, but I don't watch anything but GSL presisely because everything else is minor league. Now its all phoney. A big *
in an ideal world, i would agree with you 100%. unfortunately, it's not an ideal world. we have to throw the underdogs a bone to keep them and their fan base from just completely disappearing. it's sad, really. one thing is for sure though: i would never see wcs as the most prestigious tournament, even if it potentially has the biggest prize pool. i see it more as a compromise for the greater good of sc2.
IMO protectionist policies are counter productive and breed complacency. Why would NA/EU players need to try any harder if their current skill level is good enough to win them tournaments in their region and keep their progaming career going? People are created equal so Koreans dominating everything isn't a matter of race, it's the training culture and a case of steel sharpens steel.
i can't say i disagree with you honestly as i believe and want the same thing, and i feel bad for even arguing this point. however, a lot of time and opportunities have already been given to foreigners to step up and they haven't. i don't think they ever will. i just fear for the future of the sc2 scene once the novelty of hots has worn out.
On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote: Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
Yes it should be this way. Are you going to force me to buy a domestic car when I really want a superior import. If you don't like the koreans winning, get better. Take your affermative action elsewhere.
I am for this. End welfare seeds to MLG for Korean players from rich teams that can afford to fly them to there.
Plansix this thread is feeding you posts ):<
Yeah, that may be true, but my irritation is that high right now. The community has the collective memory of a gold fish and forgets stuff like the Kespa only bracket for the last MLG of 2012. They whine about seeds in to the GSL that they do to boost viewer numbers, but MGL can roll out the red carpet for Kespa players right into the open bracket to do the same thing.
And all of this would be fine because the Koreans are that good, but then people demand that NA players are lazy, should practice harder and WCS is unfair because Koreans should get more slots.
The fuck?
The "community" is not the same person. The reason hypocrisy exists in your mind is because there are always two sides to an argument. If you assume the people arguing are the same (they're not) then you'll definitely see this.
There probably are people who are as you describe, but you need to target them specifically rather than hate on the "community."
Of course the community isn't one person. When I am talking about people with selective or short memories, I am clearly referencing the members who say silly things and forget context or history. It would take a really long time to name all of those people one at a time.
Fair enough.
I'm not so sure how long it would actually be if you listed them because I've seen a lot of people say that and they only come up with a few names, but then again this isn't really something I'm passionate about to argue so I'll bow out.
On April 05 2013 05:10 playa wrote: I think Mike Morhaime better be working 14 hours a day, every day, for at least a year, before he tries uttering that BS again, with a straight face, about "non Koreans need to try harder." Imagine working 10 hours a day and being shitted on because you're not as good as a Korean working 14 hours plus. That's a great fucking message to send. Non Koreans, if you want any money, spend 24/7 playing our game. Real inspirational and healthy. If non Koreans spent as much time practicing as they spent coming up with this format, we would all be plat at best.
really though?
i don't know how much foreigners practice, but i doubt most practice 10 hours a day.
more importantly though, Mike Morhaime is the CEO of a big, successful company and has been for a fairly long time. i think he knows what working hard means, plus that's a real job. progamers get to live off of playing a game most of them enjoy playing in the first place and travel the world, and then they bitch about it. i'm all for something that improves the scene everywhere in the world (including Korea), but this is getting a bit ridiculous.
The point is it doesn't matter. Even if you're putting in 10 hours a day, which is a lot, you're still going to behind the Koreans. Maybe in Korea gaming is more accepted and you can afford to devote all of your waking hours to it, but for most people... they either have school that makes it impossible to play 14 hours a day or they have to work on the side to pay bills.
Morhaime is successful at making money. If you run a business, guess what your number 1 goal is? The more, the better. Everyone has their own agendas. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that these decisions make sense from a business standpoint (in that to get everyone involved to agree this had to happen) and that's it. If I invented the football, I hope I could take credit for the NFL and have people assume I know anything about sports.
Last year in NA WCS I believe 64 people qualified and they all got paid for tickets/travel to the finals. 64 people. That's a very generous number. Great for foreign gaming and probably bad for their pocket book (not that they lose sleep over that... but whose goal is it to lose money?). This year, most likely, Koreans will be taking all of the spots except a few. Increasing a prize pool, having online qualifiers, yet saying absolutely nothing about being capable of preventing cheating.
This isn't something serious atm. It's just laying the groundwork for the future. It's a foundation. It's a horrible system benefiting no scenes. That said, how many sports started out great? Unfortunately, Blizzard didn't create professional SC. They're very late getting into this, so it's a bit like going back in time but with higher prize pools. My main gripe is, don't BS me. Don't make something worse for the players and then act like you did something for them. It's a slap in the face.
When you're trying to making something that could possibly be a career for people, there is no way you can have so many unpredictable factors. Things will be changed in the future. Why? Things could obviously be better. If you're admiring this, it would be like admiring the first strategy you saw in WoL beta. It's a lack of imagination or common sense.
I think they could learn something by looking at KHL (a hockey league) in regards to dealing with foreigners. 7 Countries have teams in the KHL. Teams are allowed to have a maximum of 5 foreigners (players from not one of these countries), and the team must have at least 5 players from the country the team is located in.
A few months ago, the number 1 hockey league in the world, the NHL, had a lockout. The best players were now free to go elsewhere. Did the KHL say "omg the best players in the world, our fans won't tolerate anything but the best? Let's take away jobs from the inferior players we have! Finally people will watch our product!" No, they only allowed the best of the best to enter their league. They increased the attention on the league and profitability of the league, but they did not jeopardize the jobs of everyone from those regions. There's a thin line between increasing profit and jeopardizing long-term stability and growth.
There's 0 safeguards currently. If the Koreans were to choose in some kind of game theory manner, they would end up taking every spot in every region. Now, if Morhaime is going to create this possibility and tell me he's doing anyone a favor besides him, his buddies and maybe some Koreans, then he has no more credibility or he's been too busy with WoW.
It’s refreshing to see a progamer such as MC actually go on a rant about some of the crap going on in the scene rather than pretending everything is hunky-dory. I was quite infuriated by shows like Lo3 and SotG were all sunshine and rainbows about WCS when everything except the prize money got worse.
Should just have 2 leagues. Local and open. You could do an all-star thing too, where its each region rep'd, that'll be the tournament way to drive foreign popularity, but keep a merit-based global league round robin bo3 and make that last a long while that ends in a 32 player KO style. It'd be uhhhmazing.
Yeah we really want the foreigners to be better, which is why we are punishing some of the hardest working, most motivated foreigners like naniwa and anyone else willing to train in korea.
On April 05 2013 23:30 Plansix wrote: Also, from last nights SotG, there are reports that GSL will have the largest prize pool(same amount of WCS money from Blizzard, but more from GOM), which makes its the more worthy tournament it should be. I think we will know more in the next few weeks.
from Morhaime's interview with PCGamer.com
" But each of the leagues will distribute the same number of points and the same monetary prize pool."
Based on the # of answered questions brought up by the SotG guys, the refunds now being offered by GomTV... this is looking like a giant clusterfuck.
Notice, Blizzard didn't guarantee that over all prize money would be higher for 2013.... only that WCS would have a prize pool of 1.6 million which is less than half of the 2012 prize pool.
Riot pays the salaries for 24 teams... Blizzard is big on words and short on cash.
another great non-answer by Morhaime.. PCG: Are the prize pools for MLG, GSL, and other participating WCS leagues now provided by Blizzard?
Morhaime: We’re not getting into details on where the money’s coming from.
Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please. WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
Riot pays the salaries for 24 teams... Blizzard is big on words and short on cash.
That's amazing. Huge props to Riot. It looks like they put players first and got rewarded for it. A win/win. That's a beautiful thing. If most team salaries leave you looking for "real" job openings, and only a few players are getting a substantial piece of the tournament pie, is a flashy tournament prize the main priority? To add insult to injury, you go out of your way to invite the best players in the world to win all of the money from every region. Most of the money funneling into primarily 1 country. If that's not the epitome of short-sighted, what is?
I'm sure their first priority is to try to monopolize the scene and increase their footprint. Good for them. I just wish they would level with us. "Guys, first year, we're going to bend you over. You should get a real job. If you're trying to compete with Koreans, lol at you. But, next year we will plead ignorance/naivety and then throw you guys a bone. I'll say the following: It was an experiment and we have now realized the error in our ways. I love watching pro sports and it just slipped my mind that pro sports doesn't prosper through giving 1% of pros a chance at 99% of the money in the scene. I could have sworn it was like playing the Sunday million on pokerstars once per year, minus non Koreans winning money, and that anyone that wasn't training 14 hours a day, on hopes of getting lucky or not cheated (people seeing your hole cards), deserved to be ridiculed and encouraged to make a timely investment that I would have no qualms doing myself.
I said it in an earlier post. The foreigners will never improve until they are ran like Korean teams. Blizzard should have taken the money they are using for this tourny and put it into team houses for foreigners to be ran like the Koreans. Stacking the deck to make more of them appear in tournaments does nothing but show more less-skilled games. The foreigners appear in those tournaments, maybe a few (depending on how the points end up working) earn enough points to get to the final round and then the koreans smash them out. An entire year of having a forced storyline of players you know for a fact are a step below others.
*should say I am all for foreigners doing well in tournaments, I just only want the best people to be shown
If everyone practices 10 hours in your country but in another country they practice 24 hours a day, is it really prudent to say "man, that's what we should do"? To be better than the next guy (of equal talent), you have to put in more time. There reaches a point, though, where it's not worth it, and it's surely not healthy. Slavery wasn't outlawed so people could be subjected to working every hour they are awake and not eating. If you want that, it should be a personal choice -- not something you feel forced to do to make enough for sustenance. You know, in college, they have laws on how much you're allowed to practice? I'd much prefer a 10 hour practice cap than everyone trying to make sure no one is getting a practice edge = practicing every minute you can until you're out of the scene because your hands "fell off."
In real sports, there are star athletes, good players and role players. Any sport that is star player or bust isn't sustainable or something to be pursued. What do you do when you realize "hey, we... don't have players that are talented enough to be star players"? You're already practicing as much as possible. Is that when the scene admits defeat and only Koreans are allowed to play?
No, you have a sensible foundation that mitigates some risk. Not everyone can be a star player (a player getting money in a current WCS tournament). Once you prove gaming can be a viable career path, you will see talented people sticking with the game and potentially having the same ceiling as Korean players.
There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No.
Do I think the foreign scene would benefit from being more professional and dedicated? Yes. Coaches and taking practice as seriously as any other professional sport? Yes. 14 hours? That's excessive. Unless you're trying to be the Bobby Fischer of SC and have the potential to do so, find a movie to watch or something after 12 hours (max).
Everything is relative. The top foreigners play at a high level for the practice they have put in. The same with Koreans. A guy that has played SC for a day and is diamond is more impressive to me than a person that is low masters but has played for two years. It's not a direct comparison, but the point is when you take things into consideration things can become more impressive and interesting to follow.
On April 06 2013 16:32 playa wrote: If everyone practices 10 hours in your country but in another country they practice 24 hours a day, is it really prudent to say "man, that's what we should do"? To be better than the next guy (of equal talent), you have to put in more time. There reaches a point, though, where it's not worth it, and it's surely not healthy. Slavery wasn't outlawed so people could be subjected to working every hour they are awake and not eating. If you want that, it should be a personal choice -- not something you feel forced to do to make enough for sustenance. You know, in college, they have laws on how much you're allowed to practice? I'd much prefer a 10 hour practice cap than everyone trying to make sure no one is getting a practice edge = practicing every minute you can until you're out of the scene because your hands "fell off."
In real sports, there are star athletes, good players and role players. Any sport that is star player or bust isn't sustainable or something to be pursued. What do you do when you realize "hey, we... don't have players that are talented enough to be star players"? You're already practicing as much as possible. Is that when the scene admits defeat and only Koreans are allowed to play?
No, you have a sensible foundation that mitigates some risk. Not everyone can be a star player (a player getting money in a current WCS tournament). Once you prove gaming can be a viable career path, you will see talented people sticking with the game and potentially having the same ceiling as Korean players.
There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No.
Do I think the foreign scene would benefit from being more professional and dedicated? Yes. Coaches and taking practice as seriously as any other professional sport? Yes. 14 hours? That's excessive. Unless you're trying to be the Bobby Fischer of SC and have the potential to do so, find a movie to watch or something after 12 hours (max).
Everything is relative. The top foreigners play at a high level for the practice they have put in. The same with Koreans. A guy that has played SC for a day and is diamond is more impressive to me than a person that is low masters but has played for two years. It's not a direct comparison, but the point is when you take things into consideration that can be more impressive and interesting to follow.
We're talking about the pro scene. Pro players by definition play Starcraft for a living. You don't get to decide how much practice they should have. Your numbers are arbitrary (why 12 hours? not 10? not 14?)and you give no reason for why 14 hours is too much and 12 hours is fine.
Your logic that "top foreigners play at a high level for the practice they have put in" is ridiculous. What matters is not how well they play compared to how much they practice. What matters is how well they play, period. it might be amazing that a person got into Masters in 1 day but I wouldn't watch that, he's just still not good enough.
One thing characteristic of liars ... they speak in a passive tone. Check out this classic by Itzik Ben-Bassat:
"We were just told the other day that by numbers, StarCraft is bigger than the NHL. "
"we were just told"? what a great what to say nothing while appearing to say something big.
ok, seeing as Blizzard has the players' welfare near and dear to their hearts.. lets run some "numbers".
The NHL has a players union of over 600 with its average pay is around 3 million per year with a minimum salary of half a million a year. How many "Starcraft pros" even make the NHL minimum? How many "Starcraft pros" have a healthcare benefits and pension plan anything close to what every single NHLer has?
Let's look at some other numbers.. the NHL hosts approximately 48 "live events" per week with over 15,000 fans paying $100 each to watch with live cable TV for both the home and visiting teams fans to watch.
Several NHL teams are owned by multi-billion dollar entities. In the "Starcraft Pro Scene" the only multibillionaire on the block is one Mike Morhaime.
So Itzik, whoever told you these "numbers" is wrong. But, that is ok, you can wiggle out of this quote because you never actually said it .. you were only told this fact by someone else.
On April 06 2013 16:32 playa wrote: There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No.
What? Of course that's how it is. It's completely irrelevant if that's fun. Do you think it's fun for Kobe Bryant to sleep 4 hours a night so he can work on his shooting for 4 more hours? I bet it isn't, but that's what makes him better than the guys who don't. A good work ethic (and that means working more than is fun, more than you want and more than you think you can) is just necessary to be great at anything, you can't bypass that by forcing everyone to not work as much. No matter what you want to be the best at, there are going to be people who spend every living second working on getting better at it. And if you're not willing to do that as well, you're not going to be as good as them.
On April 06 2013 16:32 playa wrote: There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No.
What? Of course that's how it is. It's completely irrelevant if that's fun. Do you think it's fun for Kobe Bryant to sleep 4 hours a night so he can work on his shooting for 4 more hours? I bet it isn't, but that's what makes him better than the guys who don't. A good work ethic (and that means working more than is fun, more than you want and more than you think you can) is just necessary to be great at anything, you can't bypass that by forcing everyone to not work as much. No matter what you want to be the best at, there are going to be people who spend every living second working on getting better at it. And if you're not willing to do that as well, you're not going to be as good as them.
And this is pretty much why Western players have been behind Korean players for so long. It has zero to do with talent or genetics, and all about the amount of (quality) work put in. Actual training environments help a great deal as well.
On April 06 2013 16:32 playa wrote: If everyone practices 10 hours in your country but in another country they practice 24 hours a day, is it really prudent to say "man, that's what we should do"? To be better than the next guy (of equal talent), you have to put in more time. There reaches a point, though, where it's not worth it, and it's surely not healthy. Slavery wasn't outlawed so people could be subjected to working every hour they are awake and not eating. If you want that, it should be a personal choice -- not something you feel forced to do to make enough for sustenance. You know, in college, they have laws on how much you're allowed to practice? I'd much prefer a 10 hour practice cap than everyone trying to make sure no one is getting a practice edge = practicing every minute you can until you're out of the scene because your hands "fell off."
In real sports, there are star athletes, good players and role players. Any sport that is star player or bust isn't sustainable or something to be pursued. What do you do when you realize "hey, we... don't have players that are talented enough to be star players"? You're already practicing as much as possible. Is that when the scene admits defeat and only Koreans are allowed to play?
No, you have a sensible foundation that mitigates some risk. Not everyone can be a star player (a player getting money in a current WCS tournament). Once you prove gaming can be a viable career path, you will see talented people sticking with the game and potentially having the same ceiling as Korean players.
There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No.
Do I think the foreign scene would benefit from being more professional and dedicated? Yes. Coaches and taking practice as seriously as any other professional sport? Yes. 14 hours? That's excessive. Unless you're trying to be the Bobby Fischer of SC and have the potential to do so, find a movie to watch or something after 12 hours (max).
Everything is relative. The top foreigners play at a high level for the practice they have put in. The same with Koreans. A guy that has played SC for a day and is diamond is more impressive to me than a person that is low masters but has played for two years. It's not a direct comparison, but the point is when you take things into consideration things can become more impressive and interesting to follow.
are you sure this isn't just a way to rationalize why koreans are having better results than foreigners. by this line of reasoning you get to deny the possibility of some koreans just being more naturally gifted at the game. you attribute their victories to 'slave like conditions' 'working twenty four hours a day to a foreigner's ten'. I'm sure there is some legitimacy to the notion that korean training is more disciplined and that contributes to their success. But there could be other factors at work beside the practice-- and yes, that includes superior talent.
On April 06 2013 16:32 playa wrote: There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No.
What? Of course that's how it is. It's completely irrelevant if that's fun. Do you think it's fun for Kobe Bryant to sleep 4 hours a night so he can work on his shooting for 4 more hours? I bet it isn't, but that's what makes him better than the guys who don't. A good work ethic (and that means working more than is fun, more than you want and more than you think you can) is just necessary to be great at anything, you can't bypass that by forcing everyone to not work as much. No matter what you want to be the best at, there are going to be people who spend every living second working on getting better at it. And if you're not willing to do that as well, you're not going to be as good as them.
And this is pretty much why Western players have been behind Korean players for so long. It has zero to do with talent or genetics, and all about the amount of (quality) work put in. Actual training environments help a great deal as well.
You unwittingly hurt your own point about Korean dominance when you said 'it has ZERO to do with talent or genetics' in regards to Kobe Bryant. Unless you're completely in denial, you will have to admit that genetics and talents have a lot to do with Kobe Bryant's success. And by the same token, it is reasonable to at least admit the possibility that Korea's success is not solely due to the extra hours of work they put in. Maybe it is talent. Does that really eat away at your soul so much. Because it shouldn't my brother.
Innovation is far more intelligent than other players, and I don't think that has to do with how many more games he plays than his team mates. Practice helps, obviously, but so does intellect. Sadly, SC2 = / = Chess in terms of strategy. Also, Chess does not require nearly as much practice, but practice always does help. If a pro wants to become the best, he can balance how much he wants to play. If he isn't smart enough to win by playing 8 hours a day, then he might have to play 12. That's just how it works, ya know?
I think the fact that foreigners just don't care as much as Koreans is a large amount to do with why they aren't as good. They do not have the work ethic and they do not have the will to be the best.
On April 06 2013 03:21 Drigger wrote: MC is spot on.
But we all know how well Blizzard handles (constructive) criticism... so I dont expect anything to change.
Yeah, we get an expansion that improves hugely on the existing game, and they give us lots of things we asked for.
Oh, wait, you were trying to be negative here, my bad.
On April 06 2013 17:04 blackone wrote:
On April 06 2013 16:32 playa wrote: There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No.
What? Of course that's how it is. It's completely irrelevant if that's fun. Do you think it's fun for Kobe Bryant to sleep 4 hours a night so he can work on his shooting for 4 more hours? I bet it isn't, but that's what makes him better than the guys who don't. A good work ethic (and that means working more than is fun, more than you want and more than you think you can) is just necessary to be great at anything, you can't bypass that by forcing everyone to not work as much. No matter what you want to be the best at, there are going to be people who spend every living second working on getting better at it. And if you're not willing to do that as well, you're not going to be as good as them.
And this is pretty much why Western players have been behind Korean players for so long. It has zero to do with talent or genetics, and all about the amount of (quality) work put in. Actual training environments help a great deal as well.
You unwittingly hurt your own point about Korean dominance when you said 'it has ZERO to do with talent or genetics' in regards to Kobe Bryant. Unless you're completely in denial, you will have to admit that genetics and talents have a lot to do with Kobe Bryant's success. And by the same token, it is reasonable to at least admit the possibility that Korea's success is not solely due to the extra hours of work they put in. Maybe it is talent. Does that really eat away at your soul so much. Because it shouldn't my brother.
If the training regimens and environments were on equal footing, and Koreans were still wrecking everyone, then I would be willing to admit that for some reason Koreans are simply better at Starcraft. My point was more that there is 0 reason other than training regimen/environment why Western players can't be as good. A western player with the same amount of talent as, say, MVP that trains under the same environment and the same amount...you're telling me the can't be just as good?
It's not something magical that is specific to Korean genes or whatever. They simply have the formula down for developing talent. Talent only matters if you have the tools to refine it. Someone could have the same level of talent as Kobe, but if they don't work as hard or as smart, they will never be as good. Hard work trumps talent just about every time. Hard work + talent is where you get your Kobe Bryants and your Peyton Mannings.
edit: Springboarding off of this, I'm GREATLY interested to see what happens to the foreign players at the EG-TL house now that they have a real coaching setup, with a coach who has had vast experience with KeSPA style team houses. I think that is where you will see if foreign players really can compete or not given the same kind of training.
Just to go on record, a lot of us knew nothing about WCS until it was announced and for many teams there's still a lot of uncertainty.
It's been extremely hard to get any details about the structure, dates and regulations around WCS. The only ones that have been responsive to us are ESL (thanks) and even in that line of communication there's a lot of confusion.
We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should.
At first we were told that if you competed in code A qualifiers, you were instantly locked in for the year. Then came the exception that people in Korea would be allowed to switch after the first season. Then the EU side of things told us there was no such exception. Then we were told there was such an exception but it only applied to Koreans and not foreigners in Korea. Then we were told it applied to everyone in the first Korean season. Now we're not sure whether they're locked in or not.
The whole thing seems to be a huge rushjob. The people responsible for the preparations so far are failing us as a community. I'll probably catch some fallout for this, but it looks like Blizzard saw LCS and just wanted to copy what Riot did, not realizing Riot spent a long time preparing LCS. I talked to a certain LoL pro in 2011 and there was already plans being formed, and they were informed on them.
We have manager chats on skype and people are just scrambling to pick up scraps of new information
tl;dr: Many teams got no notice. It's been extremely hard to get the information we need. There's 0 clarity.
On April 06 2013 03:21 Drigger wrote: MC is spot on.
But we all know how well Blizzard handles (constructive) criticism... so I dont expect anything to change.
Yeah, we get an expansion that improves hugely on the existing game, and they give us lots of things we asked for.
Oh, wait, you were trying to be negative here, my bad.
On April 06 2013 17:04 blackone wrote:
On April 06 2013 16:32 playa wrote: There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No.
What? Of course that's how it is. It's completely irrelevant if that's fun. Do you think it's fun for Kobe Bryant to sleep 4 hours a night so he can work on his shooting for 4 more hours? I bet it isn't, but that's what makes him better than the guys who don't. A good work ethic (and that means working more than is fun, more than you want and more than you think you can) is just necessary to be great at anything, you can't bypass that by forcing everyone to not work as much. No matter what you want to be the best at, there are going to be people who spend every living second working on getting better at it. And if you're not willing to do that as well, you're not going to be as good as them.
And this is pretty much why Western players have been behind Korean players for so long. It has zero to do with talent or genetics, and all about the amount of (quality) work put in. Actual training environments help a great deal as well.
You unwittingly hurt your own point about Korean dominance when you said 'it has ZERO to do with talent or genetics' in regards to Kobe Bryant. Unless you're completely in denial, you will have to admit that genetics and talents have a lot to do with Kobe Bryant's success. And by the same token, it is reasonable to at least admit the possibility that Korea's success is not solely due to the extra hours of work they put in. Maybe it is talent. Does that really eat away at your soul so much. Because it shouldn't my brother.
If the training regimens and environments were on equal footing, and Koreans were still wrecking everyone, then I would be willing to admit that for some reason Koreans are simply better at Starcraft. My point was more that there is 0 reason other than training regimen/environment why Western players can't be as good. A western player with the same amount of talent as, say, MVP that trains under the same environment and the same amount...you're telling me the can't be just as good?
It's not something magical that is specific to Korean genes or whatever. They simply have the formula down for developing talent. Talent only matters if you have the tools to refine it. Someone could have the same level of talent as Kobe, but if they don't work as hard or as smart, they will never be as good. Hard work trumps talent just about every time. Hard work + talent is where you get your Kobe Bryants and your Peyton Mannings.
How often have you heard of a Korean quitting pro gaming during his prime to do something else? It's rare. Only effort comes to my mind, and even he came back. Where's JF playing? Where's Mondragon? Draco? A lot of the people we would view as our most talented players don't even continue with gaming. There's no reason to. When you have to be among the elite (and stay elite) to cash in a tournament, and you already know there's a lot of talented people practicing 14 hours a day, you would have to have some kind of arrogance to consider gaming a good move, if you have good alternatives.
What is far more important than practice and debates on talent are salaries and structure of events that are favorable to the "good players" and sufficient for the "role players." Once that happens, you're able to keep more talent in the game and attract more people to give it a shot. When you can't even name 5 people from your country that have made a living from SC, that would be better than one of your alternatives, then you're probably going to play it safe: not try to be pro in SC.
Random tangent. I hate basketball. A game of who has won the genetic lottery. 9/10 times the only truly impressive players are players 6'3 and under. Every team has a 7 footer. How many have you ever seen in your life? Basketball is a circus.
This will be a little controversial but let's delve into it. APM: if you want to be elite, it can't hurt to have a lot of it. I've played BW on the Asian server a few times. When you do that, you realize something interesting... why the fuck do even the horrible noob types have 300 plus APM? Asians generally have more apm. Why, I dunno. I've heard of the chopstick theory in that countries that use chopsticks have increased finger dexterity. Either way, a lot of them already meet the APM requirement. Stracraft is a strategy game. Obviously being cerebral can't hurt. What country has the highest average IQ? South Korea (108).
You're dealing with a country that simply has a higher floor than the other countries. On top of that, there is a culture there that embraces gaming a lot more than other countries do. When you combine a higher floor with a higher percentage of the population giving SC a try, you end up with a stacked deck. In my eyes, I don't see evidence for practice discrepancies being the biggest culprit. How many players can we even be wowed by their APM and think man reminds me of Nada? Is.Koma? And, if we have anyone so brilliant that they could dominate the SC scene, odds are they're like Minigun and they're probably thinking being a doctor might be a better career move.
Practice helps, but it's not the major undying issue that needs a solution for. The Koreans prove the talent part by practicing as much as they humanly can. Do the games end in ties. Are there no tiers of Korean pro gamers. Did Baby start playing BW when he was 5? Flash? It's just obvious.
Let's just wait and see what happens, I don't think the whole scene will die if things don't go as expected this year so things could be fixed for the next one.
For me, WCS NA/EU look a lot like those female-only leagues, sure they may be fun sometimes but no one in their right mind would see them as serious or prestigous tournaments simply because the vast majority of fans (even those with overwhelming nationalistic pride) are aware that the best players in the world are korean.
a) In Korea they do not just hold mass qualifiers for LCS. Winners + losers bracket, code S players get seeded into the last rounds already, code A players into the round just before that, code B players before that. If that is the structure, then performance of WoL counts a huge lot but is not the determining factor in the end. And saying code S already started is a hugely dumb argument, because surely Blizzard knew about this way before. Then it is just fail planning.
Qualifiers also make something EPIC.
b) this tournament starts online. If we have learned anything from TSL, it is that offline has huge downsides if there is no region lock. Online tournaments in 2013.. lol
c) As said, I do not understand why regions are not locked beforehand. Look at what Riot has done: US is much weaker than EU, but it is still fun and popular. The scenes are greatly fostered and develop positively. More money/salary = less streaming = more practice = scenes develop. It should be obvious where people play, because they belong to that scene.
d) Why this shit has already started and why it seems quite complicated. People tried to qualify for code A/code S playing WoL without knowing that this would determine so much in HotS. A lot of them probably were practicing HotS already..
Meh, I just cannot really get excited for this. It seems so awkward.. I really hope I am wrong.
There are so many problems with MC's football analogy, the fact that even the smallest countries still get to compete in world cups, olympics is the problem. So what the americans and chinese win a lot of medals, even the little guy that stood no chance at winning got the chance to compete. The fact that they get to choose to go to another region to compete is an advantage in my eyes, if they actually cared about being the best player then just stay in Korea, If they want an easy qualifier, go elsewhere, so what if there is a lower skill ceiling in the other regions, maybe they should make it so these smaller countries just don't get a chance in the world cup anymore......I mean whats the point? They are rubbish right?
On April 06 2013 17:46 Martijn wrote: Just to go on record, a lot of us knew nothing about WCS until it was announced and for many teams there's still a lot of uncertainty.
It's been extremely hard to get any details about the structure, dates and regulations around WCS. The only ones that have been responsive to us are ESL (thanks) and even in that line of communication there's a lot of confusion.
We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should.
At first we were told that if you competed in code A qualifiers, you were instantly locked in for the year. Then came the exception that people in Korea would be allowed to switch after the first season. Then the EU side of things told us there was no such exception. Then we were told there was such an exception but it only applied to Koreans and not foreigners in Korea. Then we were told it applied to everyone in the first Korean season. Now we're not sure whether they're locked in or not.
The whole thing seems to be a huge rushjob. The people responsible for the preparations so far are failing us as a community. I'll probably catch some fallout for this, but it looks like Blizzard saw LCS and just wanted to copy what Riot did, not realizing Riot spent a long time preparing LCS. I talked to a certain LoL pro in 2011 and there was already plans being formed, and they were informed on them.
We have manager chats on skype and people are just scrambling to pick up scraps of new information
tl;dr: Many teams got no notice. It's been extremely hard to get the information we need. There's 0 clarity.
this man has balls. thanks for the insights and having the balls to put them in writing.
Anything major planned on a global scale is bound to be flawed one way or the other.
However the fact remains that Blizzard is pumping $ into E-sports and thats freaking awesome. The idea is to crown a world champion but also to help the SC2 scene to grow, especially in the western world. The intentions are clearly spot on. We will have to wait and see what effect it actually has in the coming months.
I dont think that many teams and players get screwed over by this. Instead they get something extra to strive for imo.
On April 06 2013 19:43 DaCruise wrote: Anything major planned on a global scale is bound to be flawed one way or the other.
However the fact remains that Blizzard is pumping $ into E-sports and thats freaking awesome. The idea is to crown a world champion but also to help the SC2 scene to grow, especially in the western world. The intentions are clearly spot on. We will have to wait and see what effect it actually has in the coming months.
I dont think that many teams and players get screwed over by this. Instead they get something extra to strive for imo.
I'm fully with you on their intentions being solid. It is a great initiative, and it's good to see them act on it. If we didn't all want very much to be apart of this, no one would care about the issues to begin with, no matter how chaotic.
What is flawed is the execution so far. It's not making a mess "in the coming months", we're already actively in a mess right now. WCS doesn't start "in the coming months". We're on an extremely short clock because the announcement was so late and there's a lot left unclear.
If we had 2 months to sort everything out, we wouldn't be stressed, but this basically got dropped on us.
On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote: Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please. WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post.
Why ban guy for saying truth Sase is most overhyped player in wol history proly, and its truth that he didnt win #$& and is now going "i would win if i stayed in eu but i chose to have more skill in korea" what a bullcrap you can say that after you actually win smth, or atlest get to semifinals doh.If Huk said that i wouldnt argue couse he atlest won some stuff(long ago but still win is a win) not at max top 10 eu toss.
On April 06 2013 18:22 Beyonder wrote: I really do not understand why:
a) In Korea they do not just hold mass qualifiers for LCS. Winners + losers bracket, code S players get seeded into the last rounds already, code A players into the round just before that, code B players before that. If that is the structure, then performance of WoL counts a huge lot but is not the determining factor in the end. And saying code S already started is a hugely dumb argument, because surely Blizzard knew about this way before. Then it is just fail planning.
Qualifiers also make something EPIC.
b) this tournament starts online. If we have learned anything from TSL, it is that offline has huge downsides if there is no region lock. Online tournaments in 2013.. lol
c) As said, I do not understand why regions are not locked beforehand. Look at what Riot has done: US is much weaker than EU, but it is still fun and popular. The scenes are greatly fostered and develop positively. More money/salary = less streaming = more practice = scenes develop. It should be obvious where people play, because they belong to that scene.
d) Why this shit has already started and why it seems quite complicated. People tried to qualify for code A/code S playing WoL without knowing that this would determine so much in HotS. A lot of them probably were practicing HotS already..
Meh, I just cannot really get excited for this. It seems so awkward.. I really hope I am wrong.
+1 BTW I really agree with the streaming vs. practice sentiment. If I were to sign a star player or simply a player I want to groom to be a champion I’d put in contract that the more time he spends streaming the less money he’s going to get. You could have even bigger audience for a star player’s announced stream, maybe 2 hours a week or something like that, to make the stream a rare event. In general a Developer funded regional league allows the players to focus on getting better in a “protected” environment where the prize money is everything but top heavy, yet there still is the big bucks world final event.
On April 06 2013 18:22 Beyonder wrote: I really do not understand why:
a) In Korea they do not just hold mass qualifiers for LCS. Winners + losers bracket, code S players get seeded into the last rounds already, code A players into the round just before that, code B players before that. If that is the structure, then performance of WoL counts a huge lot but is not the determining factor in the end. And saying code S already started is a hugely dumb argument, because surely Blizzard knew about this way before. Then it is just fail planning.
Qualifiers also make something EPIC.
b) this tournament starts online. If we have learned anything from TSL, it is that offline has huge downsides if there is no region lock. Online tournaments in 2013.. lol
c) As said, I do not understand why regions are not locked beforehand. Look at what Riot has done: US is much weaker than EU, but it is still fun and popular. The scenes are greatly fostered and develop positively. More money/salary = less streaming = more practice = scenes develop. It should be obvious where people play, because they belong to that scene.
d) Why this shit has already started and why it seems quite complicated. People tried to qualify for code A/code S playing WoL without knowing that this would determine so much in HotS. A lot of them probably were practicing HotS already..
Meh, I just cannot really get excited for this. It seems so awkward.. I really hope I am wrong.
I agree with some of what you said, but not your 3rd point. I think that here it becomes difficult to compare RTS to MOBA games. You can have a highly entertaining low level game in a MOBA whereas in SC2 watching comparatively bad play is usually boring and repetitive.
I don't follow LOL much, but in DOTA 2 it is clear that the chinese are head and shoulders above the rest of the world but often times EU/NA games are more entertaining to watch because they are more aggressive and play crazier strategies. Starcraft games tend to play out in a more predictable manner and it ends up being the best players (read: Koreans) who innovate and play strange and interesting strategies and when they don't do that they at least execute the prevalent strategies flawlessly. Watching foreigners ape Korean strategies suboptimally does not make for the best viewing experience, so in this sense I think it is problematic to try to compare WCS to LCS.
On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote: Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please. WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post.
Why ban guy for saying truth Sase is most overhyped player in wol history proly, and its truth that he didnt win #$& and is now going "i would win if i stayed in eu but i chose to have more skill in korea" what a bullcrap you can say that after you actually win smth, or atlest get to semifinals doh.If Huk said that i wouldnt argue couse he atlest won some stuff(long ago but still win is a win) not at max top 10 eu toss.
On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote: Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please. WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post.
Why ban guy for saying truth Sase is most overhyped player in wol history proly, and its truth that he didnt win #$& and is now going "i would win if i stayed in eu but i chose to have more skill in korea" what a bullcrap you can say that after you actually win smth, or atlest get to semifinals doh.If Huk said that i wouldnt argue couse he atlest won some stuff(long ago but still win is a win) not at max top 10 eu toss.
Either way, he'd have a much better chance earning money in Europe than in Korea, which is all he was saying :S
On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote: Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please. WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post.
Why ban guy for saying truth Sase is most overhyped player in wol history proly, and its truth that he didnt win #$& and is now going "i would win if i stayed in eu but i chose to have more skill in korea" what a bullcrap you can say that after you actually win smth, or atlest get to semifinals doh.If Huk said that i wouldnt argue couse he atlest won some stuff(long ago but still win is a win) not at max top 10 eu toss.
Truth or not, there is a certain way to compose yourself and show etiquette. You can voice your opinion without using personal insults.
On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote: Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way.
Yes it should be this way. Are you going to force me to buy a domestic car when I really want a superior import. If you don't like the koreans winning, get better. Take your affermative action elsewhere.
I am for this. End welfare seeds to MLG for Korean players from rich teams that can afford to fly them to there.
Plansix this thread is feeding you posts ):<
Yeah, that may be true, but my irritation is that high right now. The community has the collective memory of a gold fish and forgets stuff like the Kespa only bracket for the last MLG of 2012. They whine about seeds in to the GSL that they do to boost viewer numbers, but MGL can roll out the red carpet for Kespa players right into the open bracket to do the same thing.
And all of this would be fine because the Koreans are that good, but then people demand that NA players are lazy, should practice harder and WCS is unfair because Koreans should get more slots.
The fuck?
The "community" is not the same person. The reason hypocrisy exists in your mind is because there are always two sides to an argument. If you assume the people arguing are the same (they're not) then you'll definitely see this.
There probably are people who are as you describe, but you need to target them specifically rather than hate on the "community."
Of course the community isn't one person. When I am talking about people with selective or short memories, I am clearly referencing the members who say silly things and forget context or history. It would take a really long time to name all of those people one at a time.
Just name one and paste his posts here then lol, but you can't, let me guess why? cuz you are pulling shit out of your hat
I agree with the players that the format is pretty BS. The intent was to allow viewers to watch people from their own area compete but letting players move will most likely cause tournaments to be exactly the same as they have been. That the WCS Korea is code s and not it's own individual tournament is also pretty unfair. I could understand if the code s players got seeded or did not have to participate in qualifiers but the way they are doing it now is unfair to any player who did not play well in the last GSL. That they won't even be able to participate just motivates Koreans to switch to a different area which defeats the attept to make regional competition.
We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should.
10 days? Jeez, well, that means that NaNiwas stay will be quite short in Korea.
We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should.
10 days? Jeez, well, that means that NaNiwas stay will be quite short in Korea.
We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should.
10 days? Jeez, well, that means that NaNiwas stay will be quite short in Korea.
This is troublesome indeed.
habluh? Nani is staying longterm I believe
Well, If he tries for GSL he is saying no to Season 1 of WCS. All of the spots are already for the Code S players and it's theoretically impossible for him to get Top5 for Season 1, and god damn hard to get Top5 for Season 2.
On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote: Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please. WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post.
koreans get their ass kicked on level playground?
oh like they haven't beaten europeans like nothing in EU or at any LANS?
Blizzard did the best they could given the circumstances and existing systems in each region. This is a big change for the better...and sometimes things have to get temporarily worse before they're better .
I just wanted to note a few things. Life, the guy that is currently in school and has added time restrictions (I believe due to age he can't play past 12am or something), has been winning GSL's. With a bigger talent pool, you would have more guys that might not be winning GSL's, but they would find ways to compete with Koreans. In the end, if Koreans don't give you a chance to have a practice edge, you have to have the talent part covered, regardless. 14 hours doesn't increase your peak potential.
When it comes to maximizing potential, it's hard to go off 1 example, but Idra gave credence to the general consensus that it takes 2 years of Korean practice conditions before you really start noticing big improvements. After a year in Korea, Idra seemed like the same player and he wasn't winning foreigner events. After 2 years, outside of losing a TSL to Nony (who had also practiced in Korea), he made every non Korean look like a joke. But, there was still no guarantee that he was going to become an A teamer. And, if Idra was forced to beat the best Koreans during that time, where would he have made his money?
It's an awfully big commitment for a foreigner to make, especially when there are no longer guarantees that you can compete against strictly foreigners. Even Idra has said in interviews that it was a very risky/bad decision but he was fortunate that it worked out. It comes down to salaries and having a chance to compete against foreigners for the time being. There's no way around it if you want to see an influx of talent in the scene and more people taking it seriously.
On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote: Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please. WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post.
Why ban guy for saying truth Sase is most overhyped player in wol history proly, and its truth that he didnt win #$& and is now going "i would win if i stayed in eu but i chose to have more skill in korea" what a bullcrap you can say that after you actually win smth, or atlest get to semifinals doh.If Huk said that i wouldnt argue couse he atlest won some stuff(long ago but still win is a win) not at max top 10 eu toss.
This could have all been avoided by raising the prize pool for WCS Korea and keeping the old format.
Given a few seasons, we'll have a who's who of sub-Code S Koreans representing every region in the WCS. Should be fun. I look forward to the 2015 WCS, where Koreans from all corners of the World will collide in an international(!?) contest of skill, where the National Pride of Korea is put to the ultimate test. Shit, with any luck, NA might actually take a WCS championship!
I kind of agree with the general sentiment from the Koreans and some of the foreigners, it feels really messed up that, potentially choosing to play in one of the primer tournaments, if not the best tournament in the world as far as skill and difficulty, the GSL, could potentially lock you out of playing more tournaments.
GSL is already huge commitment, you have to be in Korea for two months, you need to prepare and practice diligently for several series with different opponents playing different races and vastly different styles within even the same race. We've seen in the past how hard it is to maintain code S status while traveling abroad, it used to be, and still is a major achievement to win several tournaments back to back in a short period of time due to travel making you miss out on practice and sleep + giving opponents opportunities to study your style.
From what I'm understanding now however, its quite likely we won't have situations like that occur any more, and its a damn shame because it created some epic storylines. I don't understand the decision regarding the formatting at all as far as Korea goes. Its probably too late to change Blizzard's mind for this year, but next year they should just host separate qualifiers for Korea and the rest of the world and have premier tournaments like GSL, MLG, DH, NASL, IEM etc give out 2-4 seeds each to the WCS seasonal.
EPT
MC brings up a pretty good issue with this for sure.
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/London_2012_Olympic_100m_final_start.jpg)
