EPTWCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
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MC goes off on WCS & Polt's Machiavellian plan - Page 26
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SiergiejZavorotko
Russian Federation13 Posts
WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server..... User was banned for this post. | ||
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[MiX]sOBie
3 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On April 06 2013 14:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Riot pays the salaries for 24 teams... Blizzard is big on words and short on cash. That's amazing. Huge props to Riot. It looks like they put players first and got rewarded for it. A win/win. That's a beautiful thing. If most team salaries leave you looking for "real" job openings, and only a few players are getting a substantial piece of the tournament pie, is a flashy tournament prize the main priority? To add insult to injury, you go out of your way to invite the best players in the world to win all of the money from every region. Most of the money funneling into primarily 1 country. If that's not the epitome of short-sighted, what is? I'm sure their first priority is to try to monopolize the scene and increase their footprint. Good for them. I just wish they would level with us. "Guys, first year, we're going to bend you over. You should get a real job. If you're trying to compete with Koreans, lol at you. But, next year we will plead ignorance/naivety and then throw you guys a bone. I'll say the following: It was an experiment and we have now realized the error in our ways. I love watching pro sports and it just slipped my mind that pro sports doesn't prosper through giving 1% of pros a chance at 99% of the money in the scene. I could have sworn it was like playing the Sunday million on pokerstars once per year, minus non Koreans winning money, and that anyone that wasn't training 14 hours a day, on hopes of getting lucky or not cheated (people seeing your hole cards), deserved to be ridiculed and encouraged to make a timely investment that I would have no qualms doing myself. | ||
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HappyTimePANDA
United States167 Posts
*should say I am all for foreigners doing well in tournaments, I just only want the best people to be shown | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
In real sports, there are star athletes, good players and role players. Any sport that is star player or bust isn't sustainable or something to be pursued. What do you do when you realize "hey, we... don't have players that are talented enough to be star players"? You're already practicing as much as possible. Is that when the scene admits defeat and only Koreans are allowed to play? No, you have a sensible foundation that mitigates some risk. Not everyone can be a star player (a player getting money in a current WCS tournament). Once you prove gaming can be a viable career path, you will see talented people sticking with the game and potentially having the same ceiling as Korean players. There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No. Do I think the foreign scene would benefit from being more professional and dedicated? Yes. Coaches and taking practice as seriously as any other professional sport? Yes. 14 hours? That's excessive. Unless you're trying to be the Bobby Fischer of SC and have the potential to do so, find a movie to watch or something after 12 hours (max). Everything is relative. The top foreigners play at a high level for the practice they have put in. The same with Koreans. A guy that has played SC for a day and is diamond is more impressive to me than a person that is low masters but has played for two years. It's not a direct comparison, but the point is when you take things into consideration things can become more impressive and interesting to follow. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2593 Posts
On April 06 2013 16:32 playa wrote: If everyone practices 10 hours in your country but in another country they practice 24 hours a day, is it really prudent to say "man, that's what we should do"? To be better than the next guy (of equal talent), you have to put in more time. There reaches a point, though, where it's not worth it, and it's surely not healthy. Slavery wasn't outlawed so people could be subjected to working every hour they are awake and not eating. If you want that, it should be a personal choice -- not something you feel forced to do to make enough for sustenance. You know, in college, they have laws on how much you're allowed to practice? I'd much prefer a 10 hour practice cap than everyone trying to make sure no one is getting a practice edge = practicing every minute you can until you're out of the scene because your hands "fell off." In real sports, there are star athletes, good players and role players. Any sport that is star player or bust isn't sustainable or something to be pursued. What do you do when you realize "hey, we... don't have players that are talented enough to be star players"? You're already practicing as much as possible. Is that when the scene admits defeat and only Koreans are allowed to play? No, you have a sensible foundation that mitigates some risk. Not everyone can be a star player (a player getting money in a current WCS tournament). Once you prove gaming can be a viable career path, you will see talented people sticking with the game and potentially having the same ceiling as Korean players. There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No. Do I think the foreign scene would benefit from being more professional and dedicated? Yes. Coaches and taking practice as seriously as any other professional sport? Yes. 14 hours? That's excessive. Unless you're trying to be the Bobby Fischer of SC and have the potential to do so, find a movie to watch or something after 12 hours (max). Everything is relative. The top foreigners play at a high level for the practice they have put in. The same with Koreans. A guy that has played SC for a day and is diamond is more impressive to me than a person that is low masters but has played for two years. It's not a direct comparison, but the point is when you take things into consideration that can be more impressive and interesting to follow. We're talking about the pro scene. Pro players by definition play Starcraft for a living. You don't get to decide how much practice they should have. Your numbers are arbitrary (why 12 hours? not 10? not 14?)and you give no reason for why 14 hours is too much and 12 hours is fine. Your logic that "top foreigners play at a high level for the practice they have put in" is ridiculous. What matters is not how well they play compared to how much they practice. What matters is how well they play, period. it might be amazing that a person got into Masters in 1 day but I wouldn't watch that, he's just still not good enough. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16184 Posts
Check out this classic by Itzik Ben-Bassat: "We were just told the other day that by numbers, StarCraft is bigger than the NHL. " "we were just told"? what a great what to say nothing while appearing to say something big. ok, seeing as Blizzard has the players' welfare near and dear to their hearts.. lets run some "numbers". The NHL has a players union of over 600 with its average pay is around 3 million per year with a minimum salary of half a million a year. How many "Starcraft pros" even make the NHL minimum? How many "Starcraft pros" have a healthcare benefits and pension plan anything close to what every single NHLer has? Let's look at some other numbers.. the NHL hosts approximately 48 "live events" per week with over 15,000 fans paying $100 each to watch with live cable TV for both the home and visiting teams fans to watch. Several NHL teams are owned by multi-billion dollar entities. In the "Starcraft Pro Scene" the only multibillionaire on the block is one Mike Morhaime. So Itzik, whoever told you these "numbers" is wrong. But, that is ok, you can wiggle out of this quote because you never actually said it .. you were only told this fact by someone else. | ||
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blackone
Germany1314 Posts
On April 06 2013 16:32 playa wrote: There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No. What? Of course that's how it is. It's completely irrelevant if that's fun. Do you think it's fun for Kobe Bryant to sleep 4 hours a night so he can work on his shooting for 4 more hours? I bet it isn't, but that's what makes him better than the guys who don't. A good work ethic (and that means working more than is fun, more than you want and more than you think you can) is just necessary to be great at anything, you can't bypass that by forcing everyone to not work as much. No matter what you want to be the best at, there are going to be people who spend every living second working on getting better at it. And if you're not willing to do that as well, you're not going to be as good as them. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:21 Drigger wrote: MC is spot on. But we all know how well Blizzard handles (constructive) criticism... so I dont expect anything to change. Yeah, we get an expansion that improves hugely on the existing game, and they give us lots of things we asked for. Oh, wait, you were trying to be negative here, my bad. On April 06 2013 17:04 blackone wrote: What? Of course that's how it is. It's completely irrelevant if that's fun. Do you think it's fun for Kobe Bryant to sleep 4 hours a night so he can work on his shooting for 4 more hours? I bet it isn't, but that's what makes him better than the guys who don't. A good work ethic (and that means working more than is fun, more than you want and more than you think you can) is just necessary to be great at anything, you can't bypass that by forcing everyone to not work as much. No matter what you want to be the best at, there are going to be people who spend every living second working on getting better at it. And if you're not willing to do that as well, you're not going to be as good as them. And this is pretty much why Western players have been behind Korean players for so long. It has zero to do with talent or genetics, and all about the amount of (quality) work put in. Actual training environments help a great deal as well. | ||
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JeanLuc
Canada377 Posts
On April 06 2013 16:32 playa wrote: If everyone practices 10 hours in your country but in another country they practice 24 hours a day, is it really prudent to say "man, that's what we should do"? To be better than the next guy (of equal talent), you have to put in more time. There reaches a point, though, where it's not worth it, and it's surely not healthy. Slavery wasn't outlawed so people could be subjected to working every hour they are awake and not eating. If you want that, it should be a personal choice -- not something you feel forced to do to make enough for sustenance. You know, in college, they have laws on how much you're allowed to practice? I'd much prefer a 10 hour practice cap than everyone trying to make sure no one is getting a practice edge = practicing every minute you can until you're out of the scene because your hands "fell off." In real sports, there are star athletes, good players and role players. Any sport that is star player or bust isn't sustainable or something to be pursued. What do you do when you realize "hey, we... don't have players that are talented enough to be star players"? You're already practicing as much as possible. Is that when the scene admits defeat and only Koreans are allowed to play? No, you have a sensible foundation that mitigates some risk. Not everyone can be a star player (a player getting money in a current WCS tournament). Once you prove gaming can be a viable career path, you will see talented people sticking with the game and potentially having the same ceiling as Korean players. There's no sport where a scout is going to say... "man, if only he would double down on practice he could be as good as a star player." There's simply more to it than that. In BW a lot of our good players went to poker or used their degrees to get a real job. To slow the exodus down, you have to give them more of an incentive than "stay a star player or bust. Also, have fun practicing 14 hours a day." Sounds fun and like a good move, right? No. Do I think the foreign scene would benefit from being more professional and dedicated? Yes. Coaches and taking practice as seriously as any other professional sport? Yes. 14 hours? That's excessive. Unless you're trying to be the Bobby Fischer of SC and have the potential to do so, find a movie to watch or something after 12 hours (max). Everything is relative. The top foreigners play at a high level for the practice they have put in. The same with Koreans. A guy that has played SC for a day and is diamond is more impressive to me than a person that is low masters but has played for two years. It's not a direct comparison, but the point is when you take things into consideration things can become more impressive and interesting to follow. are you sure this isn't just a way to rationalize why koreans are having better results than foreigners. by this line of reasoning you get to deny the possibility of some koreans just being more naturally gifted at the game. you attribute their victories to 'slave like conditions' 'working twenty four hours a day to a foreigner's ten'. I'm sure there is some legitimacy to the notion that korean training is more disciplined and that contributes to their success. But there could be other factors at work beside the practice-- and yes, that includes superior talent. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
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JeanLuc
Canada377 Posts
On April 06 2013 17:06 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Yeah, we get an expansion that improves hugely on the existing game, and they give us lots of things we asked for. Oh, wait, you were trying to be negative here, my bad. And this is pretty much why Western players have been behind Korean players for so long. It has zero to do with talent or genetics, and all about the amount of (quality) work put in. Actual training environments help a great deal as well. You unwittingly hurt your own point about Korean dominance when you said 'it has ZERO to do with talent or genetics' in regards to Kobe Bryant. Unless you're completely in denial, you will have to admit that genetics and talents have a lot to do with Kobe Bryant's success. And by the same token, it is reasonable to at least admit the possibility that Korea's success is not solely due to the extra hours of work they put in. Maybe it is talent. Does that really eat away at your soul so much. Because it shouldn't my brother. | ||
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Blargh
United States2092 Posts
I think the fact that foreigners just don't care as much as Koreans is a large amount to do with why they aren't as good. They do not have the work ethic and they do not have the will to be the best. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On April 06 2013 17:21 JeanLuc wrote: You unwittingly hurt your own point about Korean dominance when you said 'it has ZERO to do with talent or genetics' in regards to Kobe Bryant. Unless you're completely in denial, you will have to admit that genetics and talents have a lot to do with Kobe Bryant's success. And by the same token, it is reasonable to at least admit the possibility that Korea's success is not solely due to the extra hours of work they put in. Maybe it is talent. Does that really eat away at your soul so much. Because it shouldn't my brother. If the training regimens and environments were on equal footing, and Koreans were still wrecking everyone, then I would be willing to admit that for some reason Koreans are simply better at Starcraft. My point was more that there is 0 reason other than training regimen/environment why Western players can't be as good. A western player with the same amount of talent as, say, MVP that trains under the same environment and the same amount...you're telling me the can't be just as good? It's not something magical that is specific to Korean genes or whatever. They simply have the formula down for developing talent. Talent only matters if you have the tools to refine it. Someone could have the same level of talent as Kobe, but if they don't work as hard or as smart, they will never be as good. Hard work trumps talent just about every time. Hard work + talent is where you get your Kobe Bryants and your Peyton Mannings. edit: Springboarding off of this, I'm GREATLY interested to see what happens to the foreign players at the EG-TL house now that they have a real coaching setup, with a coach who has had vast experience with KeSPA style team houses. I think that is where you will see if foreign players really can compete or not given the same kind of training. | ||
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Martijn
Netherlands1219 Posts
It's been extremely hard to get any details about the structure, dates and regulations around WCS. The only ones that have been responsive to us are ESL (thanks) and even in that line of communication there's a lot of confusion. We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should. At first we were told that if you competed in code A qualifiers, you were instantly locked in for the year. Then came the exception that people in Korea would be allowed to switch after the first season. Then the EU side of things told us there was no such exception. Then we were told there was such an exception but it only applied to Koreans and not foreigners in Korea. Then we were told it applied to everyone in the first Korean season. Now we're not sure whether they're locked in or not. The whole thing seems to be a huge rushjob. The people responsible for the preparations so far are failing us as a community. I'll probably catch some fallout for this, but it looks like Blizzard saw LCS and just wanted to copy what Riot did, not realizing Riot spent a long time preparing LCS. I talked to a certain LoL pro in 2011 and there was already plans being formed, and they were informed on them. We have manager chats on skype and people are just scrambling to pick up scraps of new information tl;dr: Many teams got no notice. It's been extremely hard to get the information we need. There's 0 clarity. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On April 06 2013 17:38 KrazyTrumpet wrote: If the training regimens and environments were on equal footing, and Koreans were still wrecking everyone, then I would be willing to admit that for some reason Koreans are simply better at Starcraft. My point was more that there is 0 reason other than training regimen/environment why Western players can't be as good. A western player with the same amount of talent as, say, MVP that trains under the same environment and the same amount...you're telling me the can't be just as good? It's not something magical that is specific to Korean genes or whatever. They simply have the formula down for developing talent. Talent only matters if you have the tools to refine it. Someone could have the same level of talent as Kobe, but if they don't work as hard or as smart, they will never be as good. Hard work trumps talent just about every time. Hard work + talent is where you get your Kobe Bryants and your Peyton Mannings. How often have you heard of a Korean quitting pro gaming during his prime to do something else? It's rare. Only effort comes to my mind, and even he came back. Where's JF playing? Where's Mondragon? Draco? A lot of the people we would view as our most talented players don't even continue with gaming. There's no reason to. When you have to be among the elite (and stay elite) to cash in a tournament, and you already know there's a lot of talented people practicing 14 hours a day, you would have to have some kind of arrogance to consider gaming a good move, if you have good alternatives. What is far more important than practice and debates on talent are salaries and structure of events that are favorable to the "good players" and sufficient for the "role players." Once that happens, you're able to keep more talent in the game and attract more people to give it a shot. When you can't even name 5 people from your country that have made a living from SC, that would be better than one of your alternatives, then you're probably going to play it safe: not try to be pro in SC. Random tangent. I hate basketball. A game of who has won the genetic lottery. 9/10 times the only truly impressive players are players 6'3 and under. Every team has a 7 footer. How many have you ever seen in your life? Basketball is a circus. This will be a little controversial but let's delve into it. APM: if you want to be elite, it can't hurt to have a lot of it. I've played BW on the Asian server a few times. When you do that, you realize something interesting... why the fuck do even the horrible noob types have 300 plus APM? Asians generally have more apm. Why, I dunno. I've heard of the chopstick theory in that countries that use chopsticks have increased finger dexterity. Either way, a lot of them already meet the APM requirement. Stracraft is a strategy game. Obviously being cerebral can't hurt. What country has the highest average IQ? South Korea (108). You're dealing with a country that simply has a higher floor than the other countries. On top of that, there is a culture there that embraces gaming a lot more than other countries do. When you combine a higher floor with a higher percentage of the population giving SC a try, you end up with a stacked deck. In my eyes, I don't see evidence for practice discrepancies being the biggest culprit. How many players can we even be wowed by their APM and think man reminds me of Nada? Is.Koma? And, if we have anyone so brilliant that they could dominate the SC scene, odds are they're like Minigun and they're probably thinking being a doctor might be a better career move. Practice helps, but it's not the major undying issue that needs a solution for. The Koreans prove the talent part by practicing as much as they humanly can. Do the games end in ties. Are there no tiers of Korean pro gamers. Did Baby start playing BW when he was 5? Flash? It's just obvious. | ||
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Kergy
Peru2011 Posts
For me, WCS NA/EU look a lot like those female-only leagues, sure they may be fun sometimes but no one in their right mind would see them as serious or prestigous tournaments simply because the vast majority of fans (even those with overwhelming nationalistic pride) are aware that the best players in the world are korean. | ||
Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
a) In Korea they do not just hold mass qualifiers for LCS. Winners + losers bracket, code S players get seeded into the last rounds already, code A players into the round just before that, code B players before that. If that is the structure, then performance of WoL counts a huge lot but is not the determining factor in the end. And saying code S already started is a hugely dumb argument, because surely Blizzard knew about this way before. Then it is just fail planning. Qualifiers also make something EPIC. b) this tournament starts online. If we have learned anything from TSL, it is that offline has huge downsides if there is no region lock. Online tournaments in 2013.. lol c) As said, I do not understand why regions are not locked beforehand. Look at what Riot has done: US is much weaker than EU, but it is still fun and popular. The scenes are greatly fostered and develop positively. More money/salary = less streaming = more practice = scenes develop. It should be obvious where people play, because they belong to that scene. d) Why this shit has already started and why it seems quite complicated. People tried to qualify for code A/code S playing WoL without knowing that this would determine so much in HotS. A lot of them probably were practicing HotS already.. Meh, I just cannot really get excited for this. It seems so awkward.. I really hope I am wrong. | ||
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Nubgan
1 Post
The fact that they get to choose to go to another region to compete is an advantage in my eyes, if they actually cared about being the best player then just stay in Korea, If they want an easy qualifier, go elsewhere, so what if there is a lower skill ceiling in the other regions, maybe they should make it so these smaller countries just don't get a chance in the world cup anymore......I mean whats the point? They are rubbish right? | ||
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