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On April 06 2013 17:46 Martijn wrote:
Just to go on record, a lot of us knew nothing about WCS until it was announced and for many teams there's still a lot of uncertainty.
It's been extremely hard to get any details about the structure, dates and regulations around WCS. The only ones that have been responsive to us are ESL (thanks) and even in that line of communication there's a lot of confusion.
We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should.
At first we were told that if you competed in code A qualifiers, you were instantly locked in for the year. Then came the exception that people in Korea would be allowed to switch after the first season. Then the EU side of things told us there was no such exception. Then we were told there was such an exception but it only applied to Koreans and not foreigners in Korea. Then we were told it applied to everyone in the first Korean season. Now we're not sure whether they're locked in or not.
The whole thing seems to be a huge rushjob. The people responsible for the preparations so far are failing us as a community. I'll probably catch some fallout for this, but it looks like Blizzard saw LCS and just wanted to copy what Riot did, not realizing Riot spent a long time preparing LCS. I talked to a certain LoL pro in 2011 and there was already plans being formed, and they were informed on them.
We have manager chats on skype and people are just scrambling to pick up scraps of new information
tl;dr: Many teams got no notice. It's been extremely hard to get the information we need. There's 0 clarity.
this man has balls.
thanks for the insights and having the balls to put them in writing.
Unfortunately, WCS 2013 is a giant rush job.
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Anything major planned on a global scale is bound to be flawed one way or the other.
However the fact remains that Blizzard is pumping $ into E-sports and thats freaking awesome. The idea is to crown a world champion but also to help the SC2 scene to grow, especially in the western world. The intentions are clearly spot on. We will have to wait and see what effect it actually has in the coming months.
I dont think that many teams and players get screwed over by this. Instead they get something extra to strive for imo.
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On April 06 2013 19:43 DaCruise wrote:
Anything major planned on a global scale is bound to be flawed one way or the other.
However the fact remains that Blizzard is pumping $ into E-sports and thats freaking awesome. The idea is to crown a world champion but also to help the SC2 scene to grow, especially in the western world. The intentions are clearly spot on. We will have to wait and see what effect it actually has in the coming months.
I dont think that many teams and players get screwed over by this. Instead they get something extra to strive for imo.
I'm fully with you on their intentions being solid. It is a great initiative, and it's good to see them act on it. If we didn't all want very much to be apart of this, no one would care about the issues to begin with, no matter how chaotic.
What is flawed is the execution so far. It's not making a mess "in the coming months", we're already actively in a mess right now. WCS doesn't start "in the coming months". We're on an extremely short clock because the announcement was so late and there's a lot left unclear.
If we had 2 months to sort everything out, we wouldn't be stressed, but this basically got dropped on us.
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On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote:
Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please.
WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post.
Why ban guy for saying truth Sase is most overhyped player in wol history proly, and its truth that he didnt win #$& and is now going "i would win if i stayed in eu but i chose to have more skill in korea" what a bullcrap you can say that after you actually win smth, or atlest get to semifinals doh.If Huk said that i wouldnt argue couse he atlest won some stuff(long ago but still win is a win) not at max top 10 eu toss.
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On April 06 2013 18:22 Beyonder wrote:
I really do not understand why:
a) In Korea they do not just hold mass qualifiers for LCS. Winners + losers bracket, code S players get seeded into the last rounds already, code A players into the round just before that, code B players before that. If that is the structure, then performance of WoL counts a huge lot but is not the determining factor in the end. And saying code S already started is a hugely dumb argument, because surely Blizzard knew about this way before. Then it is just fail planning.
Qualifiers also make something EPIC.
b) this tournament starts online. If we have learned anything from TSL, it is that offline has huge downsides if there is no region lock. Online tournaments in 2013.. lol
c) As said, I do not understand why regions are not locked beforehand. Look at what Riot has done: US is much weaker than EU, but it is still fun and popular. The scenes are greatly fostered and develop positively. More money/salary = less streaming = more practice = scenes develop. It should be obvious where people play, because they belong to that scene.
d) Why this shit has already started and why it seems quite complicated. People tried to qualify for code A/code S playing WoL without knowing that this would determine so much in HotS. A lot of them probably were practicing HotS already..
Meh, I just cannot really get excited for this. It seems so awkward.. I really hope I am wrong.
+1
BTW I really agree with the streaming vs. practice sentiment. If I were to sign a star player or simply a player I want to groom to be a champion I’d put in contract that the more time he spends streaming the less money he’s going to get. You could have even bigger audience for a star player’s announced stream, maybe 2 hours a week or something like that, to make the stream a rare event. In general a Developer funded regional league allows the players to focus on getting better in a “protected” environment where the prize money is everything but top heavy, yet there still is the big bucks world final event.
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On April 06 2013 18:22 Beyonder wrote:
I really do not understand why:
a) In Korea they do not just hold mass qualifiers for LCS. Winners + losers bracket, code S players get seeded into the last rounds already, code A players into the round just before that, code B players before that. If that is the structure, then performance of WoL counts a huge lot but is not the determining factor in the end. And saying code S already started is a hugely dumb argument, because surely Blizzard knew about this way before. Then it is just fail planning.
Qualifiers also make something EPIC.
b) this tournament starts online. If we have learned anything from TSL, it is that offline has huge downsides if there is no region lock. Online tournaments in 2013.. lol
c) As said, I do not understand why regions are not locked beforehand. Look at what Riot has done: US is much weaker than EU, but it is still fun and popular. The scenes are greatly fostered and develop positively. More money/salary = less streaming = more practice = scenes develop. It should be obvious where people play, because they belong to that scene.
d) Why this shit has already started and why it seems quite complicated. People tried to qualify for code A/code S playing WoL without knowing that this would determine so much in HotS. A lot of them probably were practicing HotS already..
Meh, I just cannot really get excited for this. It seems so awkward.. I really hope I am wrong.
I agree with some of what you said, but not your 3rd point. I think that here it becomes difficult to compare RTS to MOBA games. You can have a highly entertaining low level game in a MOBA whereas in SC2 watching comparatively bad play is usually boring and repetitive.
I don't follow LOL much, but in DOTA 2 it is clear that the chinese are head and shoulders above the rest of the world but often times EU/NA games are more entertaining to watch because they are more aggressive and play crazier strategies. Starcraft games tend to play out in a more predictable manner and it ends up being the best players (read: Koreans) who innovate and play strange and interesting strategies and when they don't do that they at least execute the prevalent strategies flawlessly. Watching foreigners ape Korean strategies suboptimally does not make for the best viewing experience, so in this sense I think it is problematic to try to compare WCS to LCS.
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On April 06 2013 20:35 Flamehaze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote:
Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please.
WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post. Why ban guy for saying truth Sase is most overhyped player in wol history proly, and its truth that he didnt win #$& and is now going "i would win if i stayed in eu but i chose to have more skill in korea" what a bullcrap you can say that after you actually win smth, or atlest get to semifinals doh.If Huk said that i wouldnt argue couse he atlest won some stuff(long ago but still win is a win) not at max top 10 eu toss.
bashing progamers is forbidden, it's that easy.
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On April 06 2013 20:35 Flamehaze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote:
Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please.
WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post. Why ban guy for saying truth Sase is most overhyped player in wol history proly, and its truth that he didnt win #$& and is now going "i would win if i stayed in eu but i chose to have more skill in korea" what a bullcrap you can say that after you actually win smth, or atlest get to semifinals doh.If Huk said that i wouldnt argue couse he atlest won some stuff(long ago but still win is a win) not at max top 10 eu toss.
Either way, he'd have a much better chance earning money in Europe than in Korea, which is all he was saying :S
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On April 06 2013 20:35 Flamehaze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote:
Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please.
WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post. Why ban guy for saying truth Sase is most overhyped player in wol history proly, and its truth that he didnt win #$& and is now going "i would win if i stayed in eu but i chose to have more skill in korea" what a bullcrap you can say that after you actually win smth, or atlest get to semifinals doh.If Huk said that i wouldnt argue couse he atlest won some stuff(long ago but still win is a win) not at max top 10 eu toss.
Truth or not, there is a certain way to compose yourself and show etiquette. You can voice your opinion without using personal insults.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 03:47 kc2siq wrote:On April 06 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2013 03:30 BisuDagger wrote:On April 06 2013 03:23 Plansix wrote:On April 06 2013 03:17 Scotch111 wrote:On April 05 2013 00:50 Nuclease wrote:
Gotta agree with MC. Everything about this format is SO AMAZING until you find out that any Korean player can just fly over here and whoop every poor American's ass. Shouldn't be this way. Yes it should be this way. Are you going to force me to buy a domestic car when I really want a superior import. If you don't like the koreans winning, get better. Take your affermative action elsewhere. I am for this. End welfare seeds to MLG for Korean players from rich teams that can afford to fly them to there. Plansix this thread is feeding you posts ):< Yeah, that may be true, but my irritation is that high right now. The community has the collective memory of a gold fish and forgets stuff like the Kespa only bracket for the last MLG of 2012. They whine about seeds in to the GSL that they do to boost viewer numbers, but MGL can roll out the red carpet for Kespa players right into the open bracket to do the same thing. And all of this would be fine because the Koreans are that good, but then people demand that NA players are lazy, should practice harder and WCS is unfair because Koreans should get more slots. The fuck? The "community" is not the same person. The reason hypocrisy exists in your mind is because there are always two sides to an argument. If you assume the people arguing are the same (they're not) then you'll definitely see this. There probably are people who are as you describe, but you need to target them specifically rather than hate on the "community." Of course the community isn't one person. When I am talking about people with selective or short memories, I am clearly referencing the members who say silly things and forget context or history. It would take a really long time to name all of those people one at a time.
Just name one and paste his posts here then lol, but you can't, let me guess why? cuz you are pulling shit out of your hat
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I agree with the players that the format is pretty BS. The intent was to allow viewers to watch people from their own area compete but letting players move will most likely cause tournaments to be exactly the same as they have been. That the WCS Korea is code s and not it's own individual tournament is also pretty unfair. I could understand if the code s players got seeded or did not have to participate in qualifiers but the way they are doing it now is unfair to any player who did not play well in the last GSL. That they won't even be able to participate just motivates Koreans to switch to a different area which defeats the attept to make regional competition.
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On April 06 2013 17:46 Martijn wrote:
We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should.
10 days? Jeez, well, that means that NaNiwas stay will be quite short in Korea.
This is troublesome indeed.
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On April 07 2013 04:10 TheSilverfox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 17:46 Martijn wrote:
We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should.
10 days? Jeez, well, that means that NaNiwas stay will be quite short in Korea. This is troublesome indeed.
habluh? Nani is staying longterm I believe
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On April 07 2013 04:15 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 04:10 TheSilverfox wrote:On April 06 2013 17:46 Martijn wrote:
We have SortOf in Korea right now and Blizzard basically dropped the announcement on us, meaning we have 10 days or something to get him back to EU if he wants to compete there. I don't know how every team functions of course, but our plans are set for a lot longer than 10 days. We have players that were planning to attend the Code A qualifiers and now suddenly there's the question of whether they should.
10 days? Jeez, well, that means that NaNiwas stay will be quite short in Korea. This is troublesome indeed. habluh? Nani is staying longterm I believe
Well, If he tries for GSL he is saying no to Season 1 of WCS. All of the spots are already for the Code S players and it's theoretically impossible for him to get Top5 for Season 1, and god damn hard to get Top5 for Season 2.
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On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote:
Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please.
WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post.
koreans get their ass kicked on level playground?
oh like they haven't beaten europeans like nothing in EU or at any LANS?
right. what a dumbass
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Blizzard did the best they could given the circumstances and existing systems in each region. This is a big change for the better...and sometimes things have to get temporarily worse before they're better  .
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I just wanted to note a few things. Life, the guy that is currently in school and has added time restrictions (I believe due to age he can't play past 12am or something), has been winning GSL's. With a bigger talent pool, you would have more guys that might not be winning GSL's, but they would find ways to compete with Koreans. In the end, if Koreans don't give you a chance to have a practice edge, you have to have the talent part covered, regardless. 14 hours doesn't increase your peak potential.
When it comes to maximizing potential, it's hard to go off 1 example, but Idra gave credence to the general consensus that it takes 2 years of Korean practice conditions before you really start noticing big improvements. After a year in Korea, Idra seemed like the same player and he wasn't winning foreigner events. After 2 years, outside of losing a TSL to Nony (who had also practiced in Korea), he made every non Korean look like a joke. But, there was still no guarantee that he was going to become an A teamer. And, if Idra was forced to beat the best Koreans during that time, where would he have made his money?
It's an awfully big commitment for a foreigner to make, especially when there are no longer guarantees that you can compete against strictly foreigners. Even Idra has said in interviews that it was a very risky/bad decision but he was fortunate that it worked out. It comes down to salaries and having a chance to compete against foreigners for the time being. There's no way around it if you want to see an influx of talent in the scene and more people taking it seriously.
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This is a great read, love nani and sase's spirit, thats why I love those guys even if they would fail you gotta respect the way they go at it~
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I don't get why Koreans are complaining. They have an opportunity to dominate in 3 regions in a tournament with a massive prize pool. O.o
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On April 06 2013 20:35 Flamehaze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 14:31 SiergiejZavorotko wrote:
Sase, u couldn't win shit in EU so u moved to Korea to play a tough guy. Stop whining please.
WCS is great and I laugh at Koreans saying they'll come to wcs eu. You'll get your ass kicked on the level playground by Stephano, MaNa and others. Not even mentioning terrible lag from Korea to eu server.....
User was banned for this post. Why ban guy for saying truth Sase is most overhyped player in wol history proly, and its truth that he didnt win #$& and is now going "i would win if i stayed in eu but i chose to have more skill in korea" what a bullcrap you can say that after you actually win smth, or atlest get to semifinals doh.If Huk said that i wouldnt argue couse he atlest won some stuff(long ago but still win is a win) not at max top 10 eu toss.
Sase isnt a top 10 EU toss? That's pretty funny.
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EPT
