On April 06 2013 19:44 blueslobster wrote: Being able to move your cursor while your mouse is still in the air can make you faster. However: the precision suffers. This is a tricky trade-off.
The precision doesn't really suffer. The flicking motion is a learned skill, very similar to the muscle memory one ingrains with a flicking motion while the mouse is on the pad.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: Lifting off the mouse quicker with a low LOD isn't really beneficial because you still have to put the mouse back down and that means that re-adjusting your pivot has to be as accurate as your wrist pivot.
On April 06 2013 19:44 blueslobster wrote: Could you make an example?
The limiting factor in lifting your mouse off to reposition in StarCraft isn't having a low enough LOD, it's the distance you have to physically reposition your pivot. With 800 DPI and 1920x1080, if the LOD is low then you need to flick harder to reposition your pivot or physically lift the mouse and reposition a longer distance away from where you originally started. You can see in VODs that they barely lift the mouse much and tend to favor a very small/specific area of their mouse pad. You generally want to have your arms out evenly at about shoulder length apart and your hands on the same plane, then keep it that way. If you have to reposition your mouse too far, then you break that form. This is why some players like tenkeyless keyboards (your mouse and keyboards can be positioned more narrowly) and Flash measures his keyboard placement with a ruler and tapes his mouse pad down.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I've personally switched from claw to fingertip grip after switching from Xai to AM-GS, and I was experimenting with claw again on the MiCO … That said, certain mice definitely cater to a specific grip type more so than others and certain setups (that require certain grip(s)) are more comfortable than others. I try to keep an open mind and use my knowledge as a starting point to try and find what feels natural to me (no excess tension in tendons, etc.) rather than have an idea like, "I'm using a MiCO, I have to pair it with a fast hard/hybrid pad and use a claw grip while constantly picking up the mouse for best results."
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote: I always think of claw grip as limiting when compared to fingertip grip. I find that fingertip grip allows for a lower sensitivity than claw grip, because when using fingertip grip you have a higher vertical amplitude (achieved through stretching out your fingers).
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I've also found that after you splay your fingers with a fingertip grip, you've reached the edge of your motion and the only natural move is to pull it back to the center. This is suitable for a game like Osu! where actions are predictable, but in a dynamic game like StarCraft you want to constantly maintain full range of motion (which is why you re-pivot).
On April 06 2013 19:44 blueslobster wrote: I agree. You don’t have to glide it back however — you can lift it back to the middle.
Your wrists also lock a bit when you reach the end of your vertical amplitude, not really ideal. Fingertip or claw, it's generally better to reposition your pivot before you "max out" on your range of motion on a given pivot. This allows you to not get caught flat footed as it were in a sport like tennis. Again, StarCraft is a dynamic environment where precision is demanded while a game like Osu! is a predictable environment where precision is demanded. There are differently things you can do to adjust yourself to deal with constantly changing conditions, and managing your pivot like this is one of them.
Certain actions in StarCraft demand less accuracy than others (boxing units and sending them across the map vs. selecting an individual zergling to micro), pro gamers realize this and tend to reposition their pivot during these "low intensity" periods. Constantly repositoning your pivot (on your terms) to maintain full range of motion also allows you to deal with any unexpected developments.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I'm not entirely sure if a fingertip or claw grip is better for a low sensitivity and constant re-pivoting as I'm honestly just not that experienced enough with both yet.
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote: I have plenty of experience with fingertip grip (over ten years), but not that much with claw grip (only short experiments). I guess I could be a little biased.
I've got less experience using fingertip grip than that, but it is still the most recent and comfortable grip for me (currently). However, I do notice that on different mice/setups (shells, sensors, mouse pad setup, etc. raw input assumed) the same grip can feel pretty different. There's also the matter of hand size, which really affects what kind of grips are even possible on certain mice. Really all of this is a bit moot to apply "generally" as we tend to have our own setups and mice we have in mind when we talk about what "works for us". The generalization applies sufficiently because of the limited/commonly used types of mice/setup on the market and an "average hand size", not necessarily because it's inherently true.
Personally, I'm thinking mainly of the AM-GS at 1150DPI and MiCO at 800 DPI on a smaller hand when I write these things.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: The splaying action you're describing for achieving vertical amplitude with a fingertip grip is generally for sensitivities higher than sensitivities that need to re-position its pivot to reach the same range of motion. The fingertip grip in that case has full or almost full range of motion (can reach the edge of the screen), while any grip with a lower sensitivity does not and must re-pivot. The re-pivoting grip can be fingertip or claw, it is possible with both. … I do suspect that the claw grip is slightly friendlier to constant repositioning as a.) it's slightly easier to pick up the mouse and b.) you don't need to put as much tension in your wrist while moving or slightly shifting your pivot because you can get your arm more involved to help your wrist out. Mice like the MiCO also consider this constant repositioning and as a result you have a very small and light mouse (no "adjustable weight" nonsense).
Claw grip may be better for repositioning and it might be healthier for your wrist. I still think fingertip grip is superior in vertical movement precision because, as you said, the claw grip utilizes arm movements. When using a SC 2 suiting sensitivity (three digit CPI/Full HD), arm movements are, in my opinion, inferior when it comes to precision. Especially when it comes to precision regarding vertical movements. Of course there is room for palm grip and its arm movements: the realm of very, very low sensitivity (it’s just as you said: you have a very high granularity of control with palm grip and a very low sensitivity). Because at a very, very low sensitivity a fingertip gripping user would spend more time in the air lifting his mouse around, than on his mousepad. This amount of time is, in my eyes (regardless if you’re using fingertip grip or claw grip), the biggest limiting constraint when trying to find a sensitivity as low as possible for SC 2.
What are your thoughts on arm movements when using claw grip?[/QUOTE]
The arm movements don't really contribute much except to help reposition, and the degree of movement generally isn't very drastic. Just to be clear, your arm is not used in any precision movements, it's always the pivot, this does not change. As mentioned previously, between trying to maintain form (not everyone has the same mouse/keyboard placement/form) and repositioning at key times in a game (a learned skill, and for most pros very subconscious), picking up the mouse doesn't really have a negative impact on playing the game. You want accuracy which a low sens provides with a pivot, you want dynamic range of motion which repositioning gives, any drawback of the "dead time in transit" during these 2 actions is largely mitigated from experience. I cannot think of an example where a pro gamer lost because "he was in the middle of repositioning his pivot".
You can see Sase at the beginning uses a lot more arm than the other pros, while some players like Creator and Polt don't really move their arms much. Taeja and MC do reposition, but very slightly like they're pushing the mouse a little bit forward. Everyone keeps their fingers curled and does not splay them.
It's important to keep in mind through all this that the pros and cons of a grip is still, ultimately a means to end.
This was really helpful. I noticed before that my mouse was skipping pixels, but never really took the time to look into fixing the problem. With this guide it turns out not only did I have EPP on again, which I thought I originally disabled, but I was skipping pixels due to a non 1:1 input. Now my gameplay feels a lot more crisp and I am not skipping pixels :D
On April 05 2013 10:28 IMHope wrote: I've read that the Zowie never fixed the issue on the Mico about the tracking bug. To does of you who use this mouse is it noticeable and knowing that they have yet to fix it is the mouse still worth getting? Ordered a g100s but still wondering if I should get the mico.
I've had it for a couple of months and haven't noticed any problems with tracking. If you like small mice, it's great!
On April 06 2013 23:52 aidosae wrote: I have a Logitech G9x playing at 800DPI, 6/11 in Windows and disabled the mouse sensitivity in sc2.
Sounds good. You didn’t post your screen resolution, though, but I assume it’s Full HD (1920×1080). Note that the Logitech G9x has sensor inherent issues, as described here by Cyro.
On April 07 2013 00:39 Grumbels wrote: I suppose if you have the time it would be nice to not only see ideas on mouse use but also support for those ideas with either scientific research or good sourcing (tables and facts etc). Your first post did have this, but I think it's more difficult for some other topics, such as the effects of sensitivity on hand injuries, possible benefits of playing mouse games to improve your mouse handling for starcraft, the ability to research your actual mouse movements in starcraft.
I wonder if there are ways to measure one's mouse skill objectively (not just the score in some random mouse game) and whether it's possible to determine the quickest way to improve one's skill in this and the specific effect of such skills on one's performance.
I have my own thoughts on this, but it's just some random ideas.
You’re touching very interesting topics. I’d be very interested in your thoughts.
On April 07 2013 00:55 Cyro wrote: There's a program called IOgraph or IOgraphica or something that tracks mouse movement - Pretty much everybody who uses excessive DPI in starcraft 2, or really, almost anyone at all - there's a lot, a LOT of mouse movement hitting the edges of the screen or dragging around the edges - and a lot less defined movements ... If you play horribly inefficiently, you will need a lot more DPI than otherwise, and more DPI just naturally translates into lower accuracy, which is why i really suggest for almost anyone to lower DPI, often quite vastly
I agree. Eventual health benefits can be nice, of course. But even if there were no health benefits at all most players could improve their accuracy by decreasing their sensitivity. Making the switch to low sensitivity however can be quite hard if a player has developed lots of bad habits like excessive mouse scrolling …
On April 07 2013 01:50 Sankanyo wrote: I have a 1366x768 resolution screen. Does the 6/11 and 51% rule still apply on this kind of screen? Also, since 51% is too sensitive for me, do I just adjust the sensitivity for my deathadder from the software?
P.S. I quickly skimmed through your article and I apologize in advance if it was stated at some point.
Resolution matters. Your mouse feels faster on your small resolution of 1366×768 than on 1920×1080. In five to ten years, when 4K displays (3840×2160; a lot of pixels) are getting common, everyone has to adjust their sensitivity. As you have a DeathAdder you can set it to 900 CPI or 450 CPI. 450 CPI could be to slow for you — but you could give it a try as your screen resolution is not that big. If 900 is too fast you can use Windows and SC 2 to adjust your sensitivity. You could reach ~787 (9/20 = 46 % = 0.875), 675 (8/20 = 41 % = 0.75) and ~662 CPI (7/20 = 36 % = 0.625). Again: I would stay away from Razer software. Use it to set your Hz and CPI once. Then experiment with the different sensitivities you can achieve with Windows and SC 2.
On April 07 2013 09:00 Glenn313 wrote: Thank you.
On April 07 2013 10:38 Daumen wrote: omg, thank you so much ;D
You’re welcome.
On April 07 2013 10:33 yokohama wrote: This was really helpful. I noticed before that my mouse was skipping pixels, but never really took the time to look into fixing the problem. With this guide it turns out not only did I have EPP on again, which I thought I originally disabled, but I was skipping pixels due to a non 1:1 input. Now my gameplay feels a lot more crisp and I am not skipping pixels :D
A fresh installed Windows has EPP enabled by default. (I just recently checked a freshly installed Windows 8. ;P) Glad I could help.
On April 07 2013 00:39 Grumbels wrote: I suppose if you have the time it would be nice to not only see ideas on mouse use but also support for those ideas with either scientific research or good sourcing (tables and facts etc). Your first post did have this, but I think it's more difficult for some other topics, such as the effects of sensitivity on hand injuries, possible benefits of playing mouse games to improve your mouse handling for starcraft, the ability to research your actual mouse movements in starcraft.
I wonder if there are ways to measure one's mouse skill objectively (not just the score in some random mouse game) and whether it's possible to determine the quickest way to improve one's skill in this and the specific effect of such skills on one's performance.
I have my own thoughts on this, but it's just some random ideas.
You’re touching very interesting topics. I’d be very interested in your thoughts.
Another approach could be to interview a (set of) professional players.
I once had the idea that at least with mouse games it's easy to keep track of your score (or your total score if you have a few different games) and it could be encouraged for progamers to play those games for a few minutes before starting a session. I imagine over time the scores would increase, but the question would be whether it was due to players becoming more familiar with the game (or the type of game) or whether it would be because their core mouse handling skills improved, and whether that would have to do with their playing the mouse game daily or maybe it was just a side effect of playing sc2 (or some weighted combination of both). (or whether there is even such a thing as mouse skills, since the reason some players are very fast is for a substantial part due to them knowing what to do next at any given point) And I figured that you could even introduce mouse games into starcraft. For instance, what if there are certain movement patterns you could try at the start of the game? (one thing I do is to reset my rally points while workers are building to go through all consecutive mineral patches) etc.etc. there is a lot of things one could if not research then at least mention I suppose. (sorry if this is rambling...)
And what if one would have the mouse records for like a group of professional players, maybe there is certain useful statistical analysis that can be done that would tell you that the faster, more precise, more successful players use certain patterns that could be mimicked by other players. (or maybe those patterns are just a side effect of them being better players, so it would be useless to emulate in that case)
On April 07 2013 04:15 dicedicerevolution wrote: …
I’ll get back to you shortly, I have to test some things first.
On April 08 2013 09:37 xgtx wrote: do you recommend markc mousefix for evo ec2 on windows 7 ?
Ragardless of your mouse, CPI, Hz, screen resolution or Windows version: you don’t need the The MarkC Windows Mouse Acceleration Fix for SC 2.
On April 08 2013 16:46 gravity wrote: Thanks for posting this. I'd forgotten about all this stuff, and now after adjusting my mouse it feels a lot smoother even just for normal usage.
The right settings can even make browsing more enjoyable.
On April 08 2013 18:12 Grumbels wrote: I once had the idea that at least with mouse games it's easy to keep track of your score … I imagine over time the scores would increase, but the question would be whether it was due to players becoming more familiar with the game (or the type of game) or whether it would be because their core mouse handling skills improved, and whether that would have to do with their playing the mouse game daily or maybe it was just a side effect of playing sc2 (or some weighted combination of both).
I think that by playing mouse speed games you get more efficient at playing them plus your basic mouse skills grow (and I bet the corresponding brain regions grow, also). How much different kind of mouse speed games can help you in SC 2 and what would be the optimal time one should invest in those games — those are difficult questions.
On April 08 2013 18:12 Grumbels wrote: (or whether there is even such a thing as mouse skills, since the reason some players are very fast is for a substantial part due to them knowing what to do next at any given point)
Knowing your next step by heart has definitely a great impact on your overall speed in SC 2. I just don’t think it’s the only factor.
On April 08 2013 18:12 Grumbels wrote: And I figured that you could even introduce mouse games into starcraft. For instance, what if there are certain movement patterns you could try at the start of the game? (one thing I do is to reset my rally points while workers are building to go through all consecutive mineral patches) etc.etc.
Setting rally points is good. Or trying to select certain workers (top two, bottom three …). However: You can only really do that at the very beginning of a game …
On April 08 2013 18:12 Grumbels wrote: Another approach could be to interview a (set of) professional players. … And what if one would have the mouse records for like a group of professional players, maybe there is certain useful statistical analysis that can be done that would tell you that the faster, more precise, more successful players use certain patterns that could be mimicked by other players. (or maybe those patterns are just a side effect of them being better players, so it would be useless to emulate in that case)
I like both approaches. One relatively simple way would be to extensively film the actual mouse movements of pros on their mousepads and combine that with their screen action into one video.
I find Osu had very different demands on mouse grips or even sensitivities than SC2, it's great to practice on but not too much i think. 15 mins a day is fast track to godliness
Im starting to like claw, but it's very hard to name grips, there's like 3 "types" but a tiny tiny adjustment, or difference in hand size or something very small can completely change how it feels or handles (so i think it's pretty much impossible to describe a grip that is functionally the same as something you use), at first i was closer to my previous fingertip grip trying claw, with hand more over the top of mouse but pressed down a bit for base of palm making contact, but i did not have ideal control in some situations, and tension built up in the wrist at the kind of sensitivities neccesary, i fixed that by moving palm down (further back on mouse, and much closer to mousepad - almost dragging on it) and have pretty amazing results thusfar @720dpi 1920x1080, tension builds in forearm when it has to (minutes of high strain with no release in a crazy osu map), which is just infinitely better than the tension building in your wrist or one of your pivots and the accuracy is there allowing you to expand reach with a higher DPI (if you consider 720dpi higher..) where it would otherwise be limited because of the dynamics of a claw-style grip, compared to other grips, allowing for crazy shit like in that youtube video in spoiler
On April 07 2013 04:15 dicedicerevolution wrote: …
I’ll get back to you shortly, I have to test some things first.
Sounds good, hopefully others also got something out of our discussion.
Just an update: Originally I wanted to write the next article about how to find a good sensitivity. As a result of the interesting discussion with dicedicerevolution and Cyro I’m going to write it about mouse grips instead.
i had a good search through the thread and only saw artisan recommended by OP. they look pretty expensive here in australia, anyone got a good cheap recommendation for a low resistance pad/surface?
Thank you so much for this article, i actually lost it after i read it the first time but it has popped back to the top so i am happy that i could re read it and check my settings.
That said, i don't know if my mouse is a good one really, as i do not know of any pro players who use it.
I use the Roccat Savu, which i bought when i wanted a mouse that was reportedly durable, was decently large as i have quite big hands, and also supports homestory cup <3
I run at a res of 1920-1080, 6/11, 51% CPI 1600 since reading this article, and my mouse sensitivity feels really fast, but i don't know if that is just because i am not used to it.
You said in the article that the right sensitivity is the most important, but i am the kind of guy who will pick the best and "get used to it dammit" in the long term and not be sub optimal because it is better for me in the short term.
Is this okay? is the Savu a decent mouse for sc2? I have been practicing my mouse accuracy a lot recently, and i think it is really quite bad, partly because the recent change to 51% from a life time of 42%, but it doesn't seem to have gotten all that much better over time.
Also, i was watching nony's stream a few months ago and i noticed that he plays with a really really fast scroll speed in comparison to most people, where he just touches the edge of the screen a little and then jumps back to the middle. I started playing like this and it is really effective, so i recommend it to anyone unless there is a good reason why not.
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: Thank you so much for this article, i actually lost it after i read it the first time but it has popped back to the top so i am happy that i could re read it and check my settings.
That said, i don't know if my mouse is a good one really, as i do not know of any pro players who use it.
I use the Roccat Savu, which i bought when i wanted a mouse that was reportedly durable, was decently large as i have quite big hands, and also supports homestory cup <3
I run at a res of 1920-1080, 6/11, 51% CPI 1600 since reading this article, and my mouse sensitivity feels really fast, but i don't know if that is just because i am not used to it.
You said in the article that the right sensitivity is the most important, but i am the kind of guy who will pick the best and "get used to it dammit" in the long term and not be sub optimal because it is better for me in the short term.
Is this okay? is the Savu a decent mouse for sc2? I have been practicing my mouse accuracy a lot recently, and i think it is really quite bad, partly because the recent change to 51% from a life time of 42%, but it doesn't seem to have gotten all that much better over time.
Also, i was watching nony's stream a few months ago and i noticed that he plays with a really really fast scroll speed in comparison to most people, where he just touches the edge of the screen a little and then jumps back to the middle. I started playing like this and it is really effective, so i recommend it to anyone unless there is a good reason why not.
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: Thank you so much for this article, i actually lost it after i read it the first time but it has popped back to the top so i am happy that i could re read it and check my settings.
That said, i don't know if my mouse is a good one really, as i do not know of any pro players who use it.
I use the Roccat Savu, which i bought when i wanted a mouse that was reportedly durable, was decently large as i have quite big hands, and also supports homestory cup <3
I run at a res of 1920-1080, 6/11, 51% CPI 1600 since reading this article, and my mouse sensitivity feels really fast, but i don't know if that is just because i am not used to it.
You said in the article that the right sensitivity is the most important, but i am the kind of guy who will pick the best and "get used to it dammit" in the long term and not be sub optimal because it is better for me in the short term.
Is this okay? is the Savu a decent mouse for sc2? I have been practicing my mouse accuracy a lot recently, and i think it is really quite bad, partly because the recent change to 51% from a life time of 42%, but it doesn't seem to have gotten all that much better over time.
Also, i was watching nony's stream a few months ago and i noticed that he plays with a really really fast scroll speed in comparison to most people, where he just touches the edge of the screen a little and then jumps back to the middle. I started playing like this and it is really effective, so i recommend it to anyone unless there is a good reason why not.
how does 800 cpi feel? 1600 is very fast
Well definitely slow, but then i have been using it for a month quite high. The truth is a i don't know, because i don't know what is normal. It come back to the fact that i am a mid to high masters player and i feel like i should have good mouse accuracy but i have no way of know if i am doing well or not in that way.
How should i test it? Use it for a week or so? I would assume a fast sensitivity is good for sc2. I just don't know and want someone to tell me what is not sub optimal i guess
I have a steelseries sensei, razer goliathus mousepad, and a 1920x1080 resolution on both of my monitors.
My settings in windows are 6/11, and 51% in sc2... currently my mouse settings are 3200, I tried 1600 and box clicking in the beginning of the game felt really slow... so I changed it x.x;
On April 25 2013 00:31 dreamseller wrote: i had a good search through the thread and only saw artisan recommended by OP. they look pretty expensive here in australia, anyone got a good cheap recommendation for a low resistance pad/surface?
Sorry, I can’t help you there. I’m only interested in the best solutions, so I don’t know much about second best solutions. ;P
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: is the Savu a decent mouse for sc2?
From a technical standpoint the Savu is superb. It is part of my mouse collection and I must say I really like the tracking fidelity. What I don’t like about, however, is that it is quite huge and quite heavy. The Savu is primarily a Palm Grip mouse. If you have huge hands you might be able to use it with a Fingertip Grip. I’m holding the mouse right now and it limits my vertical movements because of the way the side of the mouse is designed. Additionally: The Savu feels really sluggish when you’re coming from a light weight mouse.
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: I run at a res of 1920-1080, 6/11, 51% CPI 1600 since reading this article, and my mouse sensitivity feels really fast, but i don't know if that is just because i am not used to it.
You said in the article that the right sensitivity is the most important, but i am the kind of guy who will pick the best and "get used to it dammit" in the long term and not be sub optimal because it is better for me in the short term.
Is this okay?
Why do you think that 1600 CPI (thanks for not writing DPI :D) is the best? The best settings, in my opinion, are below 1000 CPI. One of the reasons being, that at 800 CPI your Savu won’t produce Jitter when you use a Polling Rate of 1000 Hz. Also I think 1600 CPI is just too fast for SC 2, as you already felt yourself.
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: Also, i was watching nony's stream a few months ago and i noticed that he plays with a really really fast scroll speed in comparison to most people, where he just touches the edge of the screen a little and then jumps back to the middle. I started playing like this and it is really effective, so i recommend it to anyone unless there is a good reason why not.
I too think that scroll speed should be set on its maximum value. It just saves time. It can be difficult to get used to it, though. So instead of jumping from 20 % directly to 100 %, I’d advise to make smaller adjustments. Maybe 30 % for a few days and then 40 % and so on …
On April 25 2013 01:20 Surili wrote: How should i test it [800 CPI]? Use it for a week or so? I would assume a fast sensitivity is good for sc2. I just don't know and want someone to tell me what is not sub optimal i guess
Definitely give 800 CPI a shot. And that shot should last a few weeks, at least. 800 CPI might feel slow when coming from 1600 CPI, but there are many players who go even lower with their CPI. 700 and 600 for example are not crazy low. CPI values between 300-500 are what I would regard as low.
On April 25 2013 01:43 smOOthMayDie wrote: I have a steelseries sensei, razer goliathus mousepad, and a 1920x1080 resolution on both of my monitors.
My settings in windows are 6/11, and 51% in sc2... currently my mouse settings are 3200, I tried 1600 and box clicking in the beginning of the game felt really slow... so I changed it x.x;
Any advice?
3200 CPI just is too much, in my opinion. If you felt uncomfortable with 1600 CPI give 1800 CPI a try. But with a little more commitment: use it for at least a weak, and not one game. Note that even 1800 CPI is too high, in my opinion. So after you get used to 1800 CPI try using 1200 CPI — and so on.
EPT
