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I've got an issue I was hoping someone could help me with. I bought a razer Abyssus black edition with the 3.5G infrared sensor.
The mouse only has 3 DPI settings. 450/1800/350. The 450 is far too slow, and the 1800 is far too fast when my windows sensitivity is set to 6/11 and the ingame setting set to 51. There are some drivers for the mouse available on the razer website. It comes with some software that lets you change the sensitivity but from what I understand from this thread, I shoudlnt be using that.
So I uninstalled it, and i'm left with the 3 dpi settings. None of which are ideal. I'm trying to get the mouse movement recorder software but for the life of me can't seem to find a link to the correct program. Can anyone provide me a download link?
My question is: does setting a value less than 6/11 in the windows settings have negative consequences. From what I'm understanding the probrable answer is yes. So what I need to do is get that mouse movement recorder software and find a sweet spot where my mouse has a 1/1 ratio. Can someone please direct me to a download link?
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648
Control + F and look for "Mouse Movement Recorder"
Bookmark the thread, too.
Not too keen on the Razer Abyssus drivers and if they're a good idea. I've heard older Synapse drivers were O.K. and still floating around on the internet, but I'd defer to someone who knows more.
Adjusting your software sensitivity (windows or in-game) helps compensate for mouse DPI, but it will still result in skipping, just a more "consistent" kind of skipping.
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
Razer sensitivity does not seem too bad. I mean it does not create any easily measurable skipping, it only downscales sens and a lot of smart people reccomended to use it (to downscale sens) with the 1800dpi step of the deathadder 3.5g (it's native sensor resolution) for best performance, as control speeds and other things are worse on other hardware dpi steps
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On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:I also agree that ESports has a ways to go and more attention to detail in equipment (and hopefully better equipment as a result) is a step in the right direction. However, that also opens a whole new can of worms, namely using endorsing a brand or a model while using something else. Here's an example from tennis. In ESports, there's a picture of Rapha, one of the best Quake players ever using a WMO with a black paint job and a SS sticker despite being a part of SK gaming which is sponsored by SS. There was a picture in The Ultimate Mouse thread but there's no view all option now and Google wasn't helpful 
I know that picture of Rapha. I’m very impressed with Rapha doing the sticker thing by the way. I’d imagine Steelseries was not amused. Most players just use whatever crap they get handed by their sponsor …
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
In addition to people not being aware of mouse pads being important, I think lesser known brands like Artisan are often overlooked in favor by bigger sponsoring brands like Razer and SS. I believe this is a mistake as Artisan makes some of the best pads in the market. Personally I've tried the Artisan Shiden-kai and Hayate and they really change the feel of my mouse. For example, I play SC2 on 1920x1080 and my Zowie AM-GS at 1150 DPI on the SS QcK felt slower than my Zowie MiCO at 800 DPI on the Artisan Shiden-Kai.
I have an Artisan Kai.G3 and a Shiden (the first one). I’m always amazed as to the gliding difference between the two of them. I agree that Artisan is one of the best — or maybe even the best. They are immensely innovative, but they should hire proper translators. ^^
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
Mission Red is to the 100M dash (pure athletic competition) as StarCraft is to soccer (athletic competition with a large skill component).
Well said.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:
How often would you have to lift off your mouse if your cursor is located in the upper right corner and you wanted to click on the mini map?
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
I believe this is also why the MiCO has a relatively high LOD (2mm) compared to the EC eVo (1.5mm) ... The high LOD allows you to track a little bit longer on the pad while you flick to get you exactly where you want to on-screen. Unfortunately, this also means you have to be careful in selecting your mouse pad for LOD distance and I'm not sure if this sort of knowledge has been disseminated among the manufacturers.
When using the flick/lift motion you describe a very low LOD can be beneficial. The reason being that the lower the LOD the lesser you have to lift the mouse. And the lesser you have to lift your mouse, the faster your lift off will be.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
I've personally switched from claw to fingertip grip after switching from Xai to AM-GS, and I was experimenting with claw again on the MiCO … That said, certain mice definitely cater to a specific grip type more so than others and certain setups (that require certain grip(s)) are more comfortable than others. I try to keep an open mind and use my knowledge as a starting point to try and find what feels natural to me (no excess tension in tendons, etc.) rather than have an idea like, "I'm using a MiCO, I have to pair it with a fast hard/hybrid pad and use a claw grip while constantly picking up the mouse for best results."
I always think of claw grip as limiting when compared to fingertip grip. I find that fingertip grip allows for a lower sensitivity than claw grip, because when using fingertip grip you have a higher vertical amplitude (achieved through stretching out your fingers).
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So finally I decided to reduce the dpi to 1000 (from 1200), I'll see how it goes.
What about mouse size? I have a small hands but and I'm using the g9x without any shell and my pinky seems to be having trouble finding the right place to rest (or more like there is not enough space). I actually notice this after reducing the dpi, a bit strange.
Previously I used MX518 for a good 5 years, still working like a charm btw, but i was getting tired of its form and wanted to try something new in this case g9x.
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I am in the same situation as mushlafa where 6/11 is too fast at 1800 CPI on my Razer Abyssus. I have found that 5/11 is a good setting for me at this CPI. My question is how do I know what 5/11 is on StarCraft 2 mouse settings? Would it be similar to the settings under "Software" where you give settings /20 and percentages on StarCraft 2? If so, what percentage corresponds to 5/11?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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@Fr0z3nFL4mE: You can disable SC2's own sensitivity in the latest patch. There's a check mark in the options you can tick off. It will then simply use the Windows desktop settings and you won't have to adjust anything.
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On April 05 2013 09:48 Ropid wrote:
@Fr0z3nFL4mE: You can disable SC2's own sensitivity in the latest patch. There's a check mark in the options you can tick off. It will then simply use the Windows desktop settings and you won't have to adjust anything.
Like what the blog post said, it would introduce latency (although it's not as noticeable due to it being microsecond/nanosecond difference so it would not matter to me). But I like the idea of me not having to change the sensitivity when I'm playing on different computers because the setting would be on battle.net.
I guess I'll have to live with it or just fiddle with the sensitivity slider until it feels the same as the 5/11 setting on windows lol.
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I've read that the Zowie never fixed the issue on the Mico about the tracking bug. To does of you who use this mouse is it noticeable and knowing that they have yet to fix it is the mouse still worth getting? Ordered a g100s but still wondering if I should get the mico.
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On April 05 2013 10:15 Fr0z3nFL4mE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 09:48 Ropid wrote:
@Fr0z3nFL4mE: You can disable SC2's own sensitivity in the latest patch. There's a check mark in the options you can tick off. It will then simply use the Windows desktop settings and you won't have to adjust anything. Like what the blog post said, it would introduce latency (although it's not as noticeable due to it being microsecond/nanosecond difference so it would not matter to me). But I like the idea of me not having to change the sensitivity when I'm playing on different computers because the setting would be on battle.net. I guess I'll have to live with it or just fiddle with the sensitivity slider until it feels the same as the 5/11 setting on windows lol.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a post somewhere mentioning that SC2 has more than the 11 notches of Windows and has 5 % steps. The 6/11 from Windows is the 51%-54% setting in SC2. Your 5/11 should be 41%-44% in SC2. If that does not feel right, you could also try 36-39% or 46-49%.
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On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
I believe this is also why the MiCO has a relatively high LOD (2mm) compared to the EC eVo (1.5mm) ... The high LOD allows you to track a little bit longer on the pad while you flick to get you exactly where you want to on-screen. Unfortunately, this also means you have to be careful in selecting your mouse pad for LOD distance and I'm not sure if this sort of knowledge has been disseminated among the manufacturers.
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote:
When using the flick/lift motion you describe a very low LOD can be beneficial. The reason being that the lower the LOD the lesser you have to lift the mouse. And the lesser you have to lift your mouse, the faster your lift off will be.
A low LOD is more beneficial with a palm grip/high pivot because you want to control the mouse while it's on the mouse pad as much as possible to take advantage of your greater granularity of control. You also have the benefit of working with the entire mouse pad equally since you don't have to worry about replanting your pivot in a good spot to retain mobility.
With a fingertip/claw grip or wrist pivot, having a higher LOD distance allows you to continue moving your mouse during the flick motion which means you don't have to physically move your wrist as much to re-pivot. In some cases it's even possible to not re-pivot at all.
Lifting off the mouse quicker with a low LOD isn't really beneficial because you still have to put the mouse back down and that means that re-adjusting your pivot has to be as accurate as your wrist pivot.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
I've personally switched from claw to fingertip grip after switching from Xai to AM-GS, and I was experimenting with claw again on the MiCO … That said, certain mice definitely cater to a specific grip type more so than others and certain setups (that require certain grip(s)) are more comfortable than others. I try to keep an open mind and use my knowledge as a starting point to try and find what feels natural to me (no excess tension in tendons, etc.) rather than have an idea like, "I'm using a MiCO, I have to pair it with a fast hard/hybrid pad and use a claw grip while constantly picking up the mouse for best results."
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote:
I always think of claw grip as limiting when compared to fingertip grip. I find that fingertip grip allows for a lower sensitivity than claw grip, because when using fingertip grip you have a higher vertical amplitude (achieved through stretching out your fingers).
The splaying action you're describing for achieving vertical amplitude with a fingertip grip is generally for sensitivities higher than sensitivities that need to re-position its pivot to reach the same range of motion. The fingertip grip in that case has full or almost full range of motion (can reach the edge of the screen), while any grip with a lower sensitivity does not and must re-pivot. The re-pivoting grip can be fingertip or claw, it is possible with both.
I've also found that after you splay your fingers with a fingertip grip, you've reached the edge of your motion and the only natural move is to pull it back to the center. This is suitable for a game like Osu! where actions are predictable, but in a dynamic game like StarCraft you want to constantly maintain full range of motion (which is why you re-pivot).
I'm not entirely sure if a fingertip or claw grip is better for a low sensitivity and constant re-pivoting as I'm honestly just not that experienced enough with both yet. However, I do suspect that the claw grip is slightly friendlier to constant repositioning as a.) it's slightly easier to pick up the mouse and b.) you don't need to put as much tension in your wrist while moving or slightly shifting your pivot because you can get your arm more involved to help your wrist out. Mice like the MiCO also consider this constant repositioning and as a result you have a very small and light mouse (no "adjustable weight" nonsense).
The example I gave about using a claw grip with the MiCO was just that, so don't read too much into it.
On a side note, I received my MiCO but the right click button didn't feel right (doesn't feel firm and I can press down more than I should). I've frankly had bad experiences with quality control on Zowie mice (the AM-GS I had to return once because the rubber coating wasn't even on the buttons and the MiCO has issues with the scroll wheel squeaking and the button click being off). While I'm quite aware that I'm being picky, I believe I am very justified when I'm going to be using this mouse for 10 hours a day. I'd still recommend the mouse, but with a huge asterisk on the quality and more as something "worth a try". It's quite unfortunate that while the products are good when they work well, it's just not that easy to get a perfectly working product (in my limited experience).
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On April 04 2013 08:32 mushlafa wrote:
My question is: does setting a value less than 6/11 in the windows settings have negative consequences. From what I'm understanding the probrable answer is yes. So what I need to do is get that mouse movement recorder software and find a sweet spot where my mouse has a 1/1 ratio. Can someone please direct me to a download link?
Setting a value less than 6/11 is inferior to 6/11 but most of the time it’s worth it. If you need to use 5/11 because it’s the only way to reach a good sensitivity, go for it. I do it myself. 1:1 ratio has a nice ring to it, but it is difficult to achieve when most mice only have 2-3-4 different CPI steps.
And as you may have read: the mice which do allow for super precise CPI adjustments on a hardware level do have inconsistent acceleration (which for many is an absolute deal breaker).
This is why many say there is no such thing as a perfect mouse, only compromises.
Also: There is only one setting at which you have a 1:1 ratio, and that is 6/11 (or 10/20 when using Glymbols tool) and 51 % in SC 2. There are no other values which give you 1:1.
With Razer mice I’d install the old Non-Synapse drivers, set the CPI and Hz of your mouse, uninstall it and do the rest with Windows and SC 2. I really don’t like drivers. They are just another variable that can screw you up. And if you’re going to offline events they are even more of an annoyance.
On April 05 2013 08:34 kYem wrote:
So finally I decided to reduce the dpi to 1000 (from 1200), I'll see how it goes.
What about mouse size? I have a small hands but and I'm using the g9x without any shell and my pinky seems to be having trouble finding the right place to rest (or more like there is not enough space). I actually notice this after reducing the dpi, a bit strange.
As you reduced your CPI you now have to move your mouse more, in order to compensate. Maybe you’re not used to that yet and as a result your pinky feels umcomfortable.
As a general rule (at least for fingertip grip): the smaller your hands, the more CPI you need. The fact that you’re using a relatively large mouse (even without its outer shell the g9x isn’t super small) and have small hands could result in 1000 CPI being to slow for you.
I would give 1000 CPI a little more time, though.
On April 05 2013 09:38 Fr0z3nFL4mE wrote:
My question is how do I know what 5/11 is on StarCraft 2 mouse settings?!
5/11 (normal Windows value in the control panel) = 8/20 (hidden Windows value) = 41 % (SC 2) = multiplication factor of 0.75.
For a complete listing of sensitivity values in Windows and SC 2 see my article. ;P
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Ok so I've tested both mice in the mouse movement recorder thing (sensei raw, and abyssus 3.5g) and they both track at a 1:1 ratio unless im moving the mouse wildly fast (much faster than I would in an sc2 enviornment). Is there a reason the mouse movement recorder isn't showing the negative accel that I've heard on the Sensei Raw?
I've also got the sensitivity not exactly where I want it, but I'm willing to work to get used to the slightly lower sensitivity. I think it'll be good for my overall long term health :p. I guess I'm just going to see which mouse feels better for long sessions at this point and make my decision based on that since both of them seem to be tracking at a 1:1 ratio?
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On April 06 2013 07:52 mushlafa wrote:
Ok so I've tested both mice in the mouse movement recorder thing (sensei raw, and abyssus 3.5g) and they both track at a 1:1 ratio unless im moving the mouse wildly fast (much faster than I would in an sc2 enviornment). Is there a reason the mouse movement recorder isn't showing the negative accel that I've heard on the Sensei Raw?
I've also got the sensitivity not exactly where I want it, but I'm willing to work to get used to the slightly lower sensitivity. I think it'll be good for my overall long term health :p. I guess I'm just going to see which mouse feels better for long sessions at this point and make my decision based on that since both of them seem to be tracking at a 1:1 ratio?
http://www.overclock.net/t/1296278/the-raw-sensei-review
Overclock.net is generally a very good hardware forum, the folks there are knowledgeable and dedicated. There's a difference between the Sensei and the Sensei RAW, the link will clarify it.
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On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
I believe this is also why the MiCO has a relatively high LOD (2mm) compared to the EC eVo (1.5mm) ... The high LOD allows you to track a little bit longer on the pad while you flick to get you exactly where you want to on-screen. Unfortunately, this also means you have to be careful in selecting your mouse pad for LOD distance and I'm not sure if this sort of knowledge has been disseminated among the manufacturers.
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote:
When using the flick/lift motion you describe a very low LOD can be beneficial. The reason being that the lower the LOD the lesser you have to lift the mouse. And the lesser you have to lift your mouse, the faster your lift off will be.
On April 05 2013 16:50 dicedicerevolution wrote:
With a fingertip/claw grip or wrist pivot, having a higher LOD distance allows you to continue moving your mouse during the flick motion which means you don't have to physically move your wrist as much to re-pivot. In some cases it's even possible to not re-pivot at all.
Being able to move your cursor while your mouse is still in the air can make you faster. However: the precision suffers. This is a tricky trade-off.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
Lifting off the mouse quicker with a low LOD isn't really beneficial because you still have to put the mouse back down and that means that re-adjusting your pivot has to be as accurate as your wrist pivot.
Could you make an example?
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
I've personally switched from claw to fingertip grip after switching from Xai to AM-GS, and I was experimenting with claw again on the MiCO … That said, certain mice definitely cater to a specific grip type more so than others and certain setups (that require certain grip(s)) are more comfortable than others. I try to keep an open mind and use my knowledge as a starting point to try and find what feels natural to me (no excess tension in tendons, etc.) rather than have an idea like, "I'm using a MiCO, I have to pair it with a fast hard/hybrid pad and use a claw grip while constantly picking up the mouse for best results."
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote:
I always think of claw grip as limiting when compared to fingertip grip. I find that fingertip grip allows for a lower sensitivity than claw grip, because when using fingertip grip you have a higher vertical amplitude (achieved through stretching out your fingers).
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
I've also found that after you splay your fingers with a fingertip grip, you've reached the edge of your motion and the only natural move is to pull it back to the center. This is suitable for a game like Osu! where actions are predictable, but in a dynamic game like StarCraft you want to constantly maintain full range of motion (which is why you re-pivot).
I agree. You don’t have to glide it back however — you can lift it back to the middle.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
I'm not entirely sure if a fingertip or claw grip is better for a low sensitivity and constant re-pivoting as I'm honestly just not that experienced enough with both yet.
I have plenty of experience with fingertip grip (over ten years), but not that much with claw grip (only short experiments). I guess I could be a little biased. 
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote:
The splaying action you're describing for achieving vertical amplitude with a fingertip grip is generally for sensitivities higher than sensitivities that need to re-position its pivot to reach the same range of motion. The fingertip grip in that case has full or almost full range of motion (can reach the edge of the screen), while any grip with a lower sensitivity does not and must re-pivot. The re-pivoting grip can be fingertip or claw, it is possible with both.
…
I do suspect that the claw grip is slightly friendlier to constant repositioning as a.) it's slightly easier to pick up the mouse and b.) you don't need to put as much tension in your wrist while moving or slightly shifting your pivot because you can get your arm more involved to help your wrist out. Mice like the MiCO also consider this constant repositioning and as a result you have a very small and light mouse (no "adjustable weight" nonsense).
Claw grip may be better for repositioning and it might be healthier for your wrist.
I still think fingertip grip is superior in vertical movement precision because, as you said, the claw grip utilizes arm movements. When using a SC 2 suiting sensitivity (three digit CPI/Full HD), arm movements are, in my opinion, inferior when it comes to precision. Especially when it comes to precision regarding vertical movements.
Of course there is room for palm grip and its arm movements: the realm of very, very low sensitivity (it’s just as you said: you have a very high granularity of control with palm grip and a very low sensitivity). Because at a very, very low sensitivity a fingertip gripping user would spend more time in the air lifting his mouse around, than on his mousepad. This amount of time is, in my eyes (regardless if you’re using fingertip grip or claw grip), the biggest limiting constraint when trying to find a sensitivity as low as possible for SC 2.
What are your thoughts on arm movements when using claw grip?
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What do you think about it:
I have a Logitech G9x playing at 800DPI, 6/11 in Windows and disabled the mouse sensitivity in sc2.
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I suppose if you have the time it would be nice to not only see ideas on mouse use but also support for those ideas with either scientific research or good sourcing (tables and facts etc). Your first post did have this, but I think it's more difficult for some other topics, such as the effects of sensitivity on hand injuries, possible benefits of playing mouse games to improve your mouse handling for starcraft, the ability to research your actual mouse movements in starcraft.
There was this mouse game posted on team liquid once and Nony impressed some people by having a very good score and I figured he must have been adept at such games due to his starcraft training. I wonder if there are ways to measure one's mouse skill objectively (not just the score in some random mouse game) and whether it's possible to determine the quickest way to improve one's skill in this and the specific effect of such skills on one's performance.
I have my own thoughts on this, but it's just some random ideas. If someone is willing to research it thoroughly that would be nice, it might even be beneficial information for pro teams in that case.
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
I wonder if there are ways to measure one's mouse skill objectively (not just the score in some random mouse game) and whether it's possible to determine the quickest way to improve one's skill in this and the specific effect of such skills on one's performance
It's really tricky to measure. That game in the thread that Nony got an insane score on, for example, its a stupid low resolution like 500x400 - which means i can score 5x higher using 100-200 dpi than 540-1.2k, even though i have muscle memory established there
Different grip styles, sensitivities, a lot of different variables lead up to strenghs in some areas of movement and weakness in others, for instance i can have a ~98.5% accuracy snapping to the left (wild example) but only ~96% making that same movement diagonally up and to the right, just because of my grip and positioning, the weight of my mouse and my sens.
I like Osu, but again, wildly different DPI's are suited to different maps/mods etc. There is really no "one dpi best for everything" or "one grip best for everything", you can just find the best middle ground using values of what is important to you, once you have decent knowledge.
There's a program called IOgraph or IOgraphica or something that tracks mouse movement - Pretty much everybody who uses excessive DPI in starcraft 2, or really, almost anyone at all - there's a lot, a LOT of mouse movement hitting the edges of the screen or dragging around the edges - and a lot less defined movements - when i play at 540dpi for example, i very rarely touch the sides of the screen (i can do it only 2-10 times in a game), using the middle mouse button, minimap, unit, building and camera hotkeys to have the camera where i need it to be without taking longer than somebody using a higher DPI, but, because wasteful actions like scrolling across the entire screen to drag the camera on screen edge is not required, can use like half as much DPI without it feeling slow in a limiting way - If you play horribly inefficiently, you will need a lot more DPI than otherwise, and more DPI just naturally translates into lower accuracy, which is why i really suggest for almost anyone to lower DPI, often quite vastly
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I have a 1366x768 resolution screen. Does the 6/11 and 51% rule still apply on this kind of screen? Also, since 51% is too sensitive for me, do I just adjust the sensitivity for my deathadder from the software?
P.S. I quickly skimmed through your article and I apologize in advance if it was stated at some point.
Thanks! ^^
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EPT
