This is the official feedback thread for mousespeed.net. A blog mainly about mice and how to best control them.
My first article is about how to optimally configure your mouse for SC 2: how to set your sensitivity, 1:1 input (6/11, 51 %), 1000 Hz polling are some of the topics I touch. I wanna thank wo1fwood for helping me out with some of the technical stuff. And of course I used his “Overview of Mouse Technology” extensively, so thanks for that, too.
In the future I’m going to cover topics like finding the optimal sensitivity, mouse speed games and the optimal SC 2 setup in general. Feel free to suggest topics. Please don’t hold back any kind of feedback. I have a thick skin.
On April 01 2013 21:55 xgtx wrote: I have evo ec2 , 450 dpi and 1150 dpi, 450 is too slow and 1150 too fast on 6/11
what can I do?
Your mouse has a 3090 sensor (= a very good sensor) and both 1150 CPI and 450 CPI are free of flaws. That’s why I recommend to use 1150 CPI and use Windows and SC 2 to lower your sensitivity from there on. (If you’d choose 450 CPI you’d have to use values above 6/11 which would result in pixel skipping.)
With standard Windows values you can reach ~ 862 (5/11) and ~575 CPI (4/11).
With Glymbols tool you could further reach ~ 1006 CPI (9/20) or ~ 718 CPI (7/20).
Out of these values I’d choose the one which feels best. If you’re indifferent between two values, you should choose the one which drops counts in a harmonic way. In your case the only harmonic value is 4/11 (or 6/20, if you’re using Glymbols tool).
On April 02 2013 01:26 theBALLS wrote: I think a thread like that will fit better under "tech support" forum.
Maybe. My next article though is about how to find the optimal sensitivity, which is much less techy.
On April 02 2013 02:19 THELEHGOTERRAN wrote: nice article, just got a 2013 deathadder and this is great for figuring out how to set it up
Thanks The DA has a good sensor. I would stay away from the new Synapse drivers; I have read a lot of bad things about it (see here). Good thing you still can download the old non-Synapse drivers.
On April 02 2013 02:30 PanzerElite wrote: I have a mx518 isn't better to just turn off the sc2 sensitivity and use the same sensitivity as in windows set by my logitech drivers?
The difference between turning off the SC 2 sensitivity and not is small. Turning it on is just slightly better, in my opinion. I would only use logitech drivers if you cannot get to your dream sensitivity with Windows alone.
I've learned all of this over time on tl but I wish I had been able to read this starting out. You should make a guide on as well on how to hold a mouse, not binding things to them and how sensitivity can injure your hand.
On April 02 2013 06:35 mewo wrote: I've learned all of this over time on tl but I wish I had been able to read this starting out. You should make a guide on as well on how to hold a mouse, not binding things to them and how sensitivity can injure your hand.
Exactly, this is way more important than just pure sensitivity settings Posture, overuse of the side buttons, also high sensitivity cause a lot of stress to the hand etc.
Great article! Quick question though - if I use 1260 on my SS Sensei (I forgot why such a value but I think the actual DPI increemnts are by 60? ) I should use 500Hz polling rate right?
On April 02 2013 06:56 Wombat_NI wrote: Was a good thread man, I learned quite a lot, but it'll be most useful for some of my friends who still equate higher DPI with higher precision
I guess I'm one of those people. I got a new mouse for Christmas and I've been using the 3200 DPI option. To be fair though I don't have that much real estate for my mouse.
On April 02 2013 06:35 mewo wrote: I've learned all of this over time on tl but I wish I had been able to read this starting out.
Thanks. I also have “learned this over time”, but this is an inefficient way of learning things. That’s why I wanted to make something like the famous Antigen “CS:S Mouse Optimization Guide” for SC 2.
On April 02 2013 06:35 mewo wrote: You should make a guide on as well on how to hold a mouse, not binding things to them ...
Those are on my radar, too. Concerning “how to hold a mouse”: I’m pro fingertip grip. And don’t get me started on side buttons: people bind things to them and think they’re saving time. In my opinion the optimal side button count for SC 2 is two: left click and right click. The use of side buttons is especially bad when using fingertip grip, because in that case the fingers used for pressing side buttons should be stabilizing your mouse.
On April 02 2013 06:35 mewo wrote: You should make a guide on how sensitivity can injure your hand.
On April 02 2013 07:05 kYem wrote: Exactly, this is way more important than just pure sensitivity settings Posture, overuse of the side buttons, also high sensitivity cause a lot of stress to the hand etc.
Finding the right sensitivity is far more difficult and far more important, than setting up your sensitivity. Totally with you there. Sadly many gamers use a sensitivity which is way too high which can result in less precision, less speed and, as you two pointed out, even injuries. By the way: originally I wanted to start with finding the right sensitivity, but found that it’d be more practical the other way round. And I didn’t want to force these two topics into one.
On April 02 2013 07:27 hXc_ wrote: Great article!
Thanks.
On April 02 2013 07:27 hXc_ wrote: Quick question though - if I use 1260 on my SS Sensei (I forgot why such a value but I think the actual DPI increemnts are by 60? ) I should use 500Hz polling rate right?
The Sensei, after you updated it, can be set to any CPI you want, for example 666 CPI. However: 666 CPI could be marginally inferior to 540 or 720 (which are a multiple of 90; not 60 ). Multiples of 90 are so called native steps. Everything in between is interpolated. According to Skylit these interpolated steps could, as mentioned above, be marginally inferior. In your case I would use 1270 instead of 1260, as 1270 is a multiple of 90 and it really is close by.
Regarding Hz: Glymbol (a very knowledgable mouse reviewer from overclock.net) recommends the following:
If I were you I would lower my CPI below 1000 and then use 1000 Hz polling. You could check your polling rates with Mouse Movement Recorder: if your PC isn’t able to handle 1000 Hz there is not much sense in using it. In that case 500 Hz is the way to go.
On April 02 2013 08:18 Farmer Poopy wrote: I got a new mouse for Christmas and I've been using the 3200 DPI option. To be fair though I don't have that much real estate for my mouse.
3200 CPI really is a lot. If you do have enough real estate for 1600 CPI I would strongly recommend to giving that a try.
On April 02 2013 01:26 theBALLS wrote: I think a thread like that will fit better under "tech support" forum.
Second this, if you are going to talk about mice configurations it's for the tech section even if your next section is mouse sensitivity. That's still tech.
On April 02 2013 01:26 theBALLS wrote: I think a thread like that will fit better under "tech support" forum.
Second this, if you are going to talk about mice configurations it's for the tech section even if your next section is mouse sensitivity. That's still tech.
It definitely has techy elements. Although much less than “Chrome taking a LOT of Memory” …
On April 02 2013 01:26 theBALLS wrote: I think a thread like that will fit better under "tech support" forum.
Second this, if you are going to talk about mice configurations it's for the tech section even if your next section is mouse sensitivity. That's still tech.
i think this is general enough and discussion provoking enough to be in sc2 general
It's quit interesting to discuss about, but I think we don't get a perfect setting out of this, since it goes way to deep theoreticially. You probably have to work as a scientist and do lots of research, while it also depends on the way someone researches a certain object.
Cause it's not just about the mouse it's settings and shape, but also has to do with the human body. The shape of the hands, the way an individual body reacts (which differs each person).
But yeah we can also make it simple and think of standard logic such as a certain shape "probably" fitting a certain hand better than the other. And we can test it by letting the person test different mouses. With my current sponsor "CM Storm" I do this by going to their booth and just using all the different hardware and let my comfort think what fits better, without even thinking of what is in fact better. I think comfort == facts, but not always. I don't think everytime you find something comfortable directly means it's comfortable for you as a person, but I also think that researching this takes way to much time as a competitive gamer.
It's an endless discussion which i usually just answer by: use what you find comfortable.
On April 02 2013 21:54 Gianttt wrote: It's quit interesting to discuss about, but I think we don't get a perfect setting out of this, since it goes way to deep theoreticially.
You probably have to work as a scientist and do lots of research, while it also depends on the way someone researches a certain object.
Cause it's not just about the mouse it's settings and shape, but also has to do with the human body. The shape of the hands, the way an individual body reacts (which differs each person).
People often argument with personal preference and I often feel it is being used as a knockout argument. Sure, there is room for personal preference everywhere. But whether or not your mouse skipps pixels has nothing to do with it. It’s just plain bad. The question is if you tolerate it because your mouse only has 400 CPI and you definitely need 600 CPI and therefore use 5/11 in Windows.
On April 02 2013 21:54 Gianttt wrote: But yeah we can also make it simple and think of standard logic such as a certain shape "probably" fitting a certain hand better than the other. And we can test it by letting the person test different mouses. With my current sponsor "CM Storm" I do this by going to their booth and just using all the different hardware and let my comfort think what fits better, without even thinking of what is in fact better. I think comfort == facts, but not always. I don't think everytime you find something comfortable directly means it's comfortable for you as a person, but I also think that researching this takes way to much time as a competitive gamer.
It's an endless discussion which i usually just answer by: use what you find comfortable.
That’s one cool job you have right there. :D Did you want to say “I don't think everytime you find something comfortable directly means it's [good] for you as a person”? In that case I agree. Just think of high jump. Back in school there was this really tall guy who just kind of walked over the bar. It sure was comfortable for him. But with better technique he could have gotten much higher, as walking over things only gets you so far in high jump. So, yes: being comfortable with something is good. But it cannot be everything always.
I agree that trying to scientifically determine which equipment is best for which kind of person is very difficult.
Now that you have checked “Enable Mouse Sensitivity” you’re confronted with another slider. If you’re only interested in getting a 1:1 ratio you don’t need to understand how the slider works. Just set the slider to either 51 %, 52 %, 53 % or 54 %. Those four values are all exactly the same and function as 6/11 in Windows and thus give you a 1:1 ratio.
either 51, 52, 53, 54?
why are these four numbers significant? setting outside this range disrupts the 1:1 ratio? apologies for noob question.
Your mouse, mouses settings, and how you use it is probably the most undervalued aspect of sc2 that is still extremely important. Like if you talk with anyone in the Tribes or CS community, all they ever talk about is sensitivities. But in sc2 or other rts games, no one ever talks about their mouse setup.
I'd imagine this is going to be a very useful read for the sc2 players out there.
Now that you have checked “Enable Mouse Sensitivity” you’re confronted with another slider. If you’re only interested in getting a 1:1 ratio you don’t need to understand how the slider works. Just set the slider to either 51 %, 52 %, 53 % or 54 %. Those four values are all exactly the same and function as 6/11 in Windows and thus give you a 1:1 ratio.
either 51, 52, 53, 54?
why are these four numbers significant? setting outside this range disrupts the 1:1 ratio? apologies for noob question.
Settings outside this range could disrupt 1:1 input. You can check that for yourself: Set the slider on 55 %. Then open variables.txt and search for “mousesensitivity=”. Try it for a few times and you will end up with different values. Two of those values could be 54.7 % or 55.3 %. 54.7 % would act like 51-54 %. 55.3 % would act like 56-59 %. (You can check that with the tool Mouse Movement Recorder.) Blizzard just should have included a slider with notches, just as Windows has. As is the SC 2 doesn’t show you its exact value and it rounds based upon this hidden value. Not good.
Dude, this guide blew my fucking mind. I turned off enhanced precision and now I see why I'm consistently missing where I want to click. I have so much more to figure out now...
This guide ... useful talent toi have. I wonder how much the gm+ pros actually know of this - and I feel that there is a lot of potential which is not being realized yet.
Sadly many gamers use a sensitivity which is way too high which can result in less precision, less speed and, as you two pointed out, even injuries.
Do you have any sources for this? I've seen people write this a few times on this site but I don't think I've ever actually seen evidence supporting it.
Higher sensitivity means less travel for the wrist. Logically, shouldn't that mean that it is less conducive to injuries? Also, low sensitivity mice need to get picked up and replaced into comfortable positions - this action is not an efficient use of time nor effort. Higher sensitivity reduces the need for picking the mouse up.
An advantage of lower sensitivity I thought of was that it might encourage the forearm to share some of the burden, allowing the wrist to rest in a neutral position. However, I'm not sure if it is a precise or fast enough movement for gaming. Check out Jaedong's right hand:
You can see that he relies on his wrist, not his arm, for accurate mouse movement.
Also, to illustrate the inefficiency of low sensitivity:
Flash picks up his mouse at least 10 times in the first minute. It might not look like a big deal, but imagine how much easier and faster something like marine splitting could be without needing to pick the mouse up repeatedly.
Anyway, that's just my logic. I'd love it if there are studies out there concerning this.
Higher sensitivity means less travel for the wrist. Logically, shouldn't that mean that it is less conducive to injuries?
When you have to tense the wrist/arm so much harder to come close to the same levels of accuracy, you run into problems. It's tension and posture that kills you, not movement. The worst low sens does is make the upper arm burn pretty badly if you play for many many hours straight
I have to say Jaedong is using a pretty "Low" sens by most people's standards - i mean like he cant be far above 1k DPI if he is above it (judging from this, his stream mouse usage and a few other things)
You can see that he relies on his wrist, not his arm, for accurate mouse movement.
Actually i have to say, he's clearly not using mouse fingers 1 and 2 to control the mouse (not even close to a fingertip style), It is not at all like a palm grip where he is relying on the wrist - he's infact moving his whole arm and wrist too, pretty much textbook claw grip.
Flash is also using a tiny mousepad and a mouse bungee, which is extremely limiting and cause of most of his pick ups.
Thanks! I'd learnt about acceleration in the old days playing CS, but wasn't sure about SC2 specific stuff, especially the settings in game. Really nice to know for sure that my regular mouse speed isn't being changed within the game.
As for finding your perfect mouse sensitivity, i use a little game called Po Point 2 to test out when I get a new mouse or install and settings change. It's really obvious when you flick and overshoot or undershoot which tells you how to adjust.
I have a question, in my deathadder settings I use 1800 dpi, but then there's the sensitivity bar as well. Are you saying when I move this sensitivity bar I'm adding a calculation step to the process? Is this effectively changing my dpi/cpi? It doesn't look like there's a way to turn it off and not have it affect the end result....
Sadly many gamers use a sensitivity which is way too high which can result in less precision, less speed and, as you two pointed out, even injuries.
Do you have any sources for this? I've seen people write this a few times on this site but I don't think I've ever actually seen evidence supporting it.
Higher sensitivity means less travel for the wrist. Logically, shouldn't that mean that it is less conducive to injuries? Also, low sensitivity mice need to get picked up and replaced into comfortable positions - this action is not an efficient use of time nor effort. Higher sensitivity reduces the need for picking the mouse up.
An advantage of lower sensitivity I thought of was that it might encourage the forearm to share some of the burden, allowing the wrist to rest in a neutral position. However, I'm not sure if it is a precise or fast enough movement for gaming. Check out Jaedong's right hand:
Flash picks up his mouse at least 10 times in the first minute. It might not look like a big deal, but imagine how much easier and faster something like marine splitting could be without needing to pick the mouse up repeatedly.
Anyway, that's just my logic. I'd love it if there are studies out there concerning this.
using flash as an example of poor efficiency weakens your argument greatly
Wow, never thought that my mouse needs only 1 x 0.5 cm² to move all over the screen in sc2.
btw. my sc2 resolution differs from my desktop resolution, so I have on both a different mouse speed right? Is there a way to adjust this without changing one of the resolutions?
On April 03 2013 00:01 Cyro wrote: When you have to tense the wrist/arm so much harder to come close to the same levels of accuracy, you run into problems. It's tension and posture that kills you, not movement. The worst low sens does is make the upper arm burn pretty badly if you play for many many hours straight
I think that that sort of tension goes away after you're adjusted to the higher sensitivity. I don't see why it would be necessary.
"Burning pretty badly" is usually a symptom you want to avoid. Repetitive motion injuries can occur in more than just the wrist and, from the little I've read, are caused by a variety of factors including repetition (obviously), force, and posture. I'm not convinced that higher sensitivity means more force on the wrist. Actually, since lower sensitivity means you have to move the mouse over a larger distance in a shorter amount of time, wouldn't that mean that you have to exert more force on it?
On April 03 2013 00:01 Cyro wrote: Flash is also using a tiny mousepad and a mouse bungee, which is extremely limiting and cause of most of his pick ups.
On April 03 2013 00:01 dreamseller wrote: using flash as an example of poor efficiency weakens your argument greatly
I disagree. Anyone can have inefficiencies, Flash included. Don't forget he had to have surgery on his mouse arm (though it may not have been the result of his computer use). But the mouse bungie could very well be limiting his movement. Maybe this video would better illustrate my point:
On April 02 2013 23:55 -Genome- wrote: Thanks! I'd learnt about acceleration in the old days playing CS, but wasn't sure about SC2 specific stuff, especially the settings in game. Really nice to know for sure that my regular mouse speed isn't being changed within the game.
As for finding your perfect mouse sensitivity, i use a little game called Po Point 2 to test out when I get a new mouse or install and settings change. It's really obvious when you flick and overshoot or undershoot which tells you how to adjust.
I have a question, in my deathadder settings I use 1800 dpi, but then there's the sensitivity bar as well. Are you saying when I move this sensitivity bar I'm adding a calculation step to the process? Is this effectively changing my dpi/cpi? It doesn't look like there's a way to turn it off and not have it affect the end result....
On April 02 2013 22:48 TBone- wrote: Your mouse, mouses settings, and how you use it is probably the most undervalued aspect of sc2 that is still extremely important. Like if you talk with anyone in the Tribes or CS community, all they ever talk about is sensitivities. But in sc2 or other rts games, no one ever talks about their mouse setup.
Couldn’t agree more.
On April 02 2013 22:59 hoby2000 wrote: Dude, this guide blew my fucking mind. I turned off enhanced precision and now I see why I'm consistently missing where I want to click. I have so much more to figure out now...
Higher sensitivity means less travel for the wrist. Logically, shouldn't that mean that it is less conducive to injuries?
When you have to tense the wrist/arm so much harder to come close to the same levels of accuracy, you run into problems. It's tension and posture that kills you, not movement. The worst low sens does is make the upper arm burn pretty badly if you play for many many hours straight
I see it the same way. If someone would like to test that out: set your mouse on max CPI and use 11/11 in Windows. Then try clicking on marines as fast as you can. It should prove pretty stressful for your hand.
On April 02 2013 23:55 -Genome- wrote: I have a question, in my deathadder settings I use 1800 dpi, but then there's the sensitivity bar as well. Are you saying when I move this sensitivity bar I'm adding a calculation step to the process? Is this effectively changing my dpi/cpi? It doesn't look like there's a way to turn it off and not have it affect the end result....
I don’t trust Razer when it comes to Software, just google "synapse driver". With Razer I suggest to only use the old software. And I further suggest to only use it once: install it, set your desired CPI and Hz value, uninstall it.
On April 03 2013 01:03 Yrr wrote: btw. my sc2 resolution differs from my desktop resolution, so I have on both a different mouse speed right? Is there a way to adjust this without changing one of the resolutions?
You would need a mouse like the Sensei, which lets you set any CPI you want. Sadly the Sensei has acceleration issues, which is why many gamers dodge that mouse. I strongly advise to use the same resolution both in Windows and in SC 2.
Hm, at 1080p 1800DPI on my DeathAdder feels too fast. 900DPI feels just about right to me, but am I losing a lot by having it be that low?
These two statements are why I'm asking: "As a general rule you need more CPI, the higher the resolution of your monitor." "With 2000 CPI you’re on the safe side. Most players need significantly less."
hi, thanks for makiing this thread. I use a sensei at 5600 DPI but in game I uncheck mouse sensitivity. do you recommend this or should I change it to 51%? The sensei has been working great so far but I was just wondering if I was skipping pixels.
On the wrist issues, most of the guys I know who have wrist issues, it's very much the same issues coming up.
Basically, the nature of Repetitive Strain Injuries is very much in the name. Very high sensitivities mean you move your wrist just as frequently, but in a much narrower range of movement. Instinctively you'd think reducing the amount you move the mouse via high-sensitivity settings would alleviate this, but for me and a friend this actually made our wrists worse.
I get the same in my picking hand on guitar, it's not a wide movement, but that in itself can cause issues over time.
On April 03 2013 01:32 Wombat_NI wrote: On the wrist issues, most of the guys I know who have wrist issues, it's very much the same issues coming up.
Basically, the nature of Repetitive Strain Injuries is very much in the name. Very high sensitivities mean you move your wrist just as frequently, but in a much narrower range of movement. Instinctively you'd think reducing the amount you move the mouse via high-sensitivity settings would alleviate this, but for me and a friend this actually made our wrists worse.
I get the same in my picking hand on guitar, it's not a wide movement, but that in itself can cause issues over time.
Exactly, I was playing on 1800, started to have the wrist issues. Like a year later i decided to lower it to 1200, i was able to feel a difference a week later, way more relaxed hands. Unfortunately I still have issues but the wrist are not as bad as they were with 1800.
I've been using a Zowie Mico for maybe 6 months now and I initially put it on 1600 DPI (it only has 400, 800, and 1600 as options). I read somewhere that this 1600 was "simulated", though, so I took it down to 800 and upped my windows mouse speed to 7/11 to compensate for the absurd slowness.
It felt like the 800 was more reliable and accurate in reading my movements than the 1600 DPI, but I never did test pixel skipping or anything like that, I just went with how it felt to use the mouse. I have my mouse sensitivity in SC2 turned off so supposedly it is the same mouse speed in game as it is in windows.
I really like the Mico because of its shape and size, but I was wondering if you knew of a better way for me to get the speed higher than 800 DPI on 6/11 without causing a bunch of pixel skipping. The only consistent issues I have noticed are that 1) sometimes the mouse will randomly shoot several inches across the screen when I'm moving it around quickly in a direction that makes no sense given my movements and 2) the cursor can be a tad bothersome to move across the entire monitor quickly when I need to click the minimap, place buildings quickly, etc.
I would like to find a way to minimize pixel skipping and such while getting the cursor a bit faster than it is presently. I am also completely useless when it comes to understanding how mouse-related phenomena actually function. I don't use mouse acceleration, by the way. Any ideas?
On April 03 2013 01:10 banjo1735 wrote: Repetitive motion injuries can occur in more than just the wrist and, from the little I've read, are caused by a variety of factors including repetition (obviously), force, and posture. I'm not convinced that higher sensitivity means more force on the wrist. Actually, since lower sensitivity means you have to move the mouse over a larger distance in a shorter amount of time, wouldn't that mean that you have to exert more force on it?
I don’t know of studies which would support the “low sensitivity is healthier for your hands” hypothesis. I just think it makes sense and I did a lot of self experiments (e. g. playing two weeks with a very high CPI).
On April 03 2013 01:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Hm, at 1080p 1800DPI on my DeathAdder feels too fast. 900DPI feels just about right to me, but am I losing a lot by having it be that low?
These two statements are why I'm asking: "As a general rule you need more CPI, the higher the resolution of your monitor." "With 2000 CPI you’re on the safe side. Most players need significantly less."
I would definitely give 900 CPI a shot. And I don’t think you’re loosing anything. If anything, your winning: speed, precision and for the health benefits see the side discussion in this thread. The moment you start loosing speed with low CPI is when you cannot control your army/base/screen fast enough. Say for example you would have to lift your mouse 2 times only to reach the minimap. If you can click comfortably on your minimap — you should be fine.
On April 03 2013 01:29 rolando wrote: hi, thanks for makiing this thread. I use a sensei at 5600 DPI but in game I uncheck mouse sensitivity. do you recommend this or should I change it to 51%? The sensei has been working great so far but I was just wondering if I was skipping pixels.
If you unchecked mouse sensitivity in SC 2 your Windows settings matter. If Windows is at 6/11 you don’t skip pixels. I seriously recommend that you lower your sensitivity, though. By playing with 5600 CPI you’re limiting yourself. I would try a significantly lower CPI value and give it a few weeks (don’t just abort after one frustrating game!).
On April 03 2013 01:32 Wombat_NI wrote: Basically, the nature of Repetitive Strain Injuries is very much in the name. Very high sensitivities mean you move your wrist just as frequently, but in a much narrower range of movement. Instinctively you'd think reducing the amount you move the mouse via high-sensitivity settings would alleviate this, but for me and a friend this actually made our wrists worse.
I get the same in my picking hand on guitar, it's not a wide movement, but that in itself can cause issues over time.
Good explanation and example. Thanks.
On April 03 2013 02:30 TroW wrote: I've been using a Zowie Mico for maybe 6 months now and I initially put it on 1600 DPI (it only has 400, 800, and 1600 as options). I read somewhere that this 1600 was "simulated" ... The only consistent issues I have noticed are that 1) sometimes the mouse will randomly shoot several inches across the screen when I'm moving it around quickly in a direction that makes no sense given my movements and 2) the cursor can be a tad bothersome to move across the entire monitor quickly when I need to click the minimap, place buildings quickly, etc.
1600 CPI on the Mico is interpolated, correct. If effectively behaves like a mouse with 800 CPI and with 8/11 in Windows (multiplication factor of 2). The Mico, so to say, skips pixels by design. The Mico also is known for erratic movements as you described it. On top of that I just hate the stiff buttons the Mico has. ;P
On April 03 2013 02:30 TroW wrote:so I took it down to 800 and upped my windows mouse speed to 7/11 to compensate for the absurd slowness.
It felt like the 800 was more reliable and accurate in reading my movements than the 1600 DPI, but I never did test pixel skipping or anything like that, I just went with how it felt to use the mouse. I have my mouse sensitivity in SC2 turned off so supposedly it is the same mouse speed in game as it is in windows.
I really like the Mico because of its shape and size, but I was wondering if you knew of a better way for me to get the speed higher than 800 DPI on 6/11 without causing a bunch of pixel skipping.
I would like to find a way to minimize pixel skipping and such while getting the cursor a bit faster than it is presently.
Bad news: If 800 CPI is too slow for you and you want to keep using the Mico, you will have to arrange yourself with pixel skipping. Either on a hardware level (set your Mico on 1600 CPI) or on a software level (set Windows above 6/11). With 800 CPI and Glymbols tool you could reach 1000 CPI (11/20), 1200 CPI (12/20) and 1400 CPI (13/20).
Edit: you could lower the resolution of your monitor. At 1280x720 your mouse will be 1.5 times faster than at 1920x1080. However: Image quality can suffer a lot when your monitor runs with a non native resolution. Also your input lag will be higher.
On April 03 2013 03:15 ROOTT1 wrote: in general i find it much harder to micro the higher your dpi is, makes it hard to select individual units (blink stalker micro for example)
edit: my current dpi is 1350 but i keep switching back and forth between 1350-1440-1530.. cant settle on a speed =/
I once tried to lift a sentry in the middle of a bunch of stalkers while I was playing with a very high CPI value. I missed. ;P Experimenting with different sensitivities is great. How much time these experiments need is a difficult question. The danger always being that one didn’t give the experiment enough time.
So I've gotten a Roccat Savu 4-5 months ago and unfortunately the DPI settings are 400, 800, 1600 and 4000. Which already is a bit weird to me, as I'd imagine if 400 is possible all multiples of 400 should be? But unfortunately there's not even the option for 1200 and I just think 800 is definitely too low for me and 1600 rather too high, although I went with it as I didn't see any other choice.
I guess there's just no way I can reach 1200 or 1400 as the harmonic values would result in multipliers of 0.25 or 0.5. Which means 1600 DPI will result in 800 at best and 4000 in 2000 (too high) or 1000.
Maybe I'll try out 1000 as I think I just don't move my right hand enough with 1600 dpi :/
800 is a good number, i'd strongly reccomend it as a starting point for anyone looking for mouse accuracy and strong muscle memory etc on 1920x1080, don't be so quick to dismiss it.
There was a time when i could not use anything below 2k, now i'd consider 1k almost unbearably high, though i understand most dont share that view, 800 is more of a medium sensitivity than a low one, consider it
Thats 540dpi, i would consider my accuracy pretty bad on that map and settings (89%.. due to the mods and not knowing it very well) But seriously, you never see people using >1.5k dpi even attempting this kind of shit. Even at 540, my hand was not moving much, it's not really limiting at all unless you go lower. + Show Spoiler +
Ignore the grip/mouse movement details on cam though, i was nervous so it was different, weird etc because of streaming, and viewers
It's good to have discussions like these on the forums, I believe there will be more in the future as players become more aware of the importance of gaming peripherals to performance.
However, it's important to realize that what players are actually looking for isn't the "right sensitivity" or even the "right mouse". The real question being asked is, "How can I click things in the game in a fast, smooth, precise, and consistent manner?" This distinction is important because gaming peripherals and game settings are actual a means to an end rather than ends in themselves. In the following, I'll dissect how nuanced achieving smoothness, precision, and consistency in a game is.
"Fast" Screen resolution, DPI/CPI, software sensitivity are all factors in determining how quickly a mouse moves across the screen. However, mouse grip styles (and also their associated pivots) and mouse pads are also huge contributing factors. The general notion that larger screen resolution = more DPI/CPI is true. A larger resolution means more pixels and DPI/CPI is a measure of how many pixels a mouse moves per inch (e.g. speed, not precision which is a common mix up), therefore more DPI = you move more across the screen with the same distance traveled on your mouse pad. That said, how you move the mouse completely changes how a user perceives any changes in resolution/DPI.
For palm grip players this mean that your pivot is further up your arm (wrist, elbow, shoulder, basically anywhere you have joints). Your movements are often sweeping and larger than other mouse grip types which means you tend to have lower sensitivity settings (this will refer to both DPI and software-based) and frequently pick up the mouse to reposition it to reach the edges of your screen. Mouse pads choice is much more important for you guys as you interact with it far more than other grip types. The speed and feel of a pad depends on the player. Generally, a player may choose a faster pad and compensate for it with a lower sensitivity for control and vice versa. The feel of a pad would mean how rough or textured the pad feels to the player. Some players prefer to be able to feel the pad under their fingers to "track" where they are in their movement (during their sweeping motion, whenever they pick up and reposition their mouse), while others don't really place their fingers close enough to the pad to feel it and would rather have the sensation of moving their mouse over air. Also note that mouse pads can also affect the LOD distance of a mouse. LOD distance is the lift-off distance of a mouse and basically means how much you have to lift the mouse off from its surface before it stops tracking. A mouse with a higher LOD would mean that you have to lift it up higher before it stops tracking. Generally, palm grip players and/or players with lower sensitivities find it easier to lift up their mouse a small amount to reposition because of their pivot (this has to do with economy of motion and how it's easier for a player with a wrist or even elbow pivot to pick up a mouse higher than a player with a shoulder pivot). Consequently, even a player with a resolution/sensitivity combination that would be viewed as "slow" if you only considered those 2 factors could be moving quite quickly in-game with the right grip/pad. They would simply be using more mouse surface area and constantly picking up their mouse to achieve this speed (but gaining greater control in the process). As a final caveat, I want to add that FPS players tend to use this grip the most because of the control it gives and how movement in their game works. Unlike in RTS games, an FPS player will often use "big" movements to move in their game which requires them to pan camera angles than move across pixels on a flat environment. Also when compared to RTS games, they typically do not need to change directions constantly, rapidly, or unexpectedly when doing such a panning movement and use smaller movements to aim their weapon. This also means that a mouse designed with this type of use in mind will have a higher "perfect control speed" (e.g. how fast the mouse can physical move while still maintaining perfect tracking on its sensors) than for games that feature more players with claw or fingertip grips.
Claw grip players will generally have their pivot closer to the wrist and higher sensitivities, so while some of these players may also pick up their mouse often like palm grip players, they do so in a smaller surface area.
Fingertip grip players will almost always have their pivot at the wrist and generally have the highest sensitivities. They will also pick up the mouse far less (some players will even have their sensitivities high enough so that they don't need to). This also means that you need to be applying constant tension to your nerves and tendons in order to be able to have control over such precise movements over such short distances (you basically need to have control as fine as a sixteenth of an inch compared to 3-4 inches) and is why people say it causes RSI. It's tension that causes injuries. The repetitive in RSI is when you apply constant tension, repeatedly. Personally, I've spent over 3 months trying to get used to 2300 DPI on 1920x1080 for SC2 and decided that I just couldn't get the control down at the precision I needed for professional level play. I've since switched to 1150 and am aiming for 800 with a faster pad.
You can basically think of these things as how "zoomed in" you are with your mouse. Generally, a lower sensitivity means more pad surface area which results in greater granularity of control. The sacrifice in speed is actual relative to physical mouse movement (e.g. move the mouse more, faster to have the same speed in-game as someone with higher sensitivity). Also note that the grip styles and sensitivities are correlated but independent of each other (e.g. a fingertip grip doesn't always mean you should have high sensitivity), while the pivot and physical range of motion are not. This means that with a wrist pivot, you can only physically move your mouse so much with a palm, claw, and fingertip (with palm being able to move the least and fingertip the most, considering vertical and horizontal movements). You have the option of picking up and re-planting your pivot to increase your range of motion in your game (e.g. be able to reach the edge of your screen), but depending on your grip and sensitivity, you're stuck with the granularity control within that pivot.
"Smooth" I'll define smoothness as "the speed and economy of motion at which a player is able to move from one complete mouse action to the next". Translated to sports-terms, it would be akin to agility; it is also related to Day9's "hang". As touched upon in "speed", this is something that RTS games place heavy emphasis on (especially at higher levels). In sports-terms it would be like basketball as opposed to tennis where change of direction happens much more frequently at shorter travel distances. Here, players with palm/claw grip types (and their associated sensitivities and pivots) will benefit more from a mouse pad with faster initial movement. This is also very closely associated with mouse accuracy since you finish one complete mouse action that much more efficiently (Day9's click once, instead of spamming with mouse), so you can smoothly transition into the next.
"Precise" I've pretty much already covered this at this point, but I'll try to elaborate as best as I can. The reason you're generally going to have much better precision with a lower sensitivity is because you're much less likely to over or undershoot if your movement isn't a short twitching motion (like with high sensitivity). It really comes down to granularity of control within your pivot. Picking up your mouse to reposition your pivot will be awkward at first (what isn't at first?) but once you get used to it, it enables you to have the best of both worlds. You'll often notice Koreans twitch their mouse laterally (using pivot) then reposition their mouse across the pad to do this. You won't really lose accuracy doing this and the "dead time" you have while you pick up the mouse and reposition it can easily be mitigated with skill (e.g. knowing when to pick up your mouse so managing your range of motion in-game). The physical movements in keyboard and mouse (e.g. how to hit control groups faster with your fingers, reposition mouse, how to physically click the buttons) are another aspect of mechanics that are often overlooked (as opposed to not getting supply blocked) but that's for another post. Note that I assume that we are not working with software-based mouse acceleration (most commonly enhanced pointer precision in Windows). Sensor-based (on the mouse itself, generally much less severe) is much more manageable and should be [comparably] compatible with my post. It's basically possible to get used to sensor-based acceleration, but not ideal.
"Consistent" Like precision, this has been covered for the most part but it's also unique in that your equipment probably matters the most here. While it's possible to somewhat get used to some inconsistencies like acceleration, when you put it all together it really does come down to how reliable your equipment is so you have to adjust as minimally as possible. This is especially important for tournament players as you're now contending with your own body as another source of possible inconsistency. Nerves, adrenaline, doubt, concentration, these are only some of the factors that can affect how you personally answer, "How can I click things in the game in a fast, smooth, precise, and consistent manner?" when it matters most. Even for more casual players, ladder anxiety alone can make you overshoot the minerals with your initial split (or rally). Having greater control and margin for error with consistent equipment along with a lower sensitivity allows you to get into a rhythm without having to constantly second-guess yourself.
Conclusion For all the players just getting into selecting a mouse/pad, congratulations. You're in for a rewarding journey on playing games where you if you will it, it will happen. I hope this has opened a world of possibilities instead of complicated things for you.
I've done a lot of research into this sort of thing and many of the ideas presented aren't something I've come up with independently but taken in from sources that I've believed to be useful. I'll format it and make it more presentable later if people want since I'm not sure if most people can be bothered to read through this one post in a thread.
Note: A mouse like the MiCO is a good example of a mouse where a lot of the angles in this post have been considered. The stiff mouse switches that people tend to complain about are the result of a claw-esque grip from the StarTale players who press on them much harder and from a vertical angle than most players are accustomed to. I personally went from a Xai to the AM-GS to the MiCo (for SC2) and the transition from the Xai to the AM-GS was the hardest since that was the biggest jump in switch stiffness. I've since gotten used to it and while my double-click speed is strictly slower than the Xai, I frankly don't need it and prefer the firm click now instead. It gives me a greater sense of control so I don't spam or accidentally click as much and is more than sufficient for engagements and such.
On April 03 2013 04:24 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: Hey, very interesting blog!
So I've gotten a Roccat Savu 4-5 months ago and unfortunately the DPI settings are 400, 800, 1600 and 4000. Which already is a bit weird to me, as I'd imagine if 400 is possible all multiples of 400 should be? But unfortunately there's not even the option for 1200 and I just think 800 is definitely too low for me and 1600 rather too high, although I went with it as I didn't see any other choice.
I guess there's just no way I can reach 1200 or 1400 as the harmonic values would result in multipliers of 0.25 or 0.5. Which means 1600 DPI will result in 800 at best and 4000 in 2000 (too high) or 1000.
Maybe I'll try out 1000 as I think I just don't move my right hand enough with 1600 dpi :/
On April 03 2013 04:29 Cyro wrote: 800 is a good number, i'd strongly reccomend it as a starting point for anyone looking for mouse accuracy and strong muscle memory etc on 1920x1080, don't be so quick to dismiss it.
I definitely would choose 800 as a starting point. If that is too slow for you I would use 1600 CPI with 7/20 (resulting in 1000 CPI). 7/20 is inconsistent in the way it drops counts, but you have no choice if 800 is too slow for you.
On April 03 2013 01:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Hm, at 1080p 1800DPI on my DeathAdder feels too fast. 900DPI feels just about right to me, but am I losing a lot by having it be that low?
These two statements are why I'm asking: "As a general rule you need more CPI, the higher the resolution of your monitor." "With 2000 CPI you’re on the safe side. Most players need significantly less."
I would definitely give 900 CPI a shot. And I don’t think you’re loosing anything. If anything, your winning: speed, precision and for the health benefits see the side discussion in this thread. The moment you start loosing speed with low CPI is when you cannot control your army/base/screen fast enough. Say for example you would have to lift your mouse 2 times only to reach the minimap. If you can click comfortably on your minimap — you should be fine.
Thanks for the clarification. It feels pretty much exactly the same as I've had my mouse settings for the last several months, but it's more "technically" accurate now (after checking with the movement recorder) so I guess I'm pulling ahead in this :D
Maybe this is the break I need to finally get GM!!!!..... lolol
lol blue... i saw ur pic in the blog and thought, wtf i know him, isnt this ips.blue? and yes he is xD. dunno if you remember me, back then my nick was mulliwulli or something like that and i often played games with you and avenger xD. sadly IPS isnt anymore .
nice work btw , back then you were already an mousefreak, even if i doubt that the settings back then where ideal haha :D
On April 03 2013 04:24 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: Hey, very interesting blog!
So I've gotten a Roccat Savu 4-5 months ago and unfortunately the DPI settings are 400, 800, 1600 and 4000. Which already is a bit weird to me, as I'd imagine if 400 is possible all multiples of 400 should be? But unfortunately there's not even the option for 1200 and I just think 800 is definitely too low for me and 1600 rather too high, although I went with it as I didn't see any other choice.
I guess there's just no way I can reach 1200 or 1400 as the harmonic values would result in multipliers of 0.25 or 0.5. Which means 1600 DPI will result in 800 at best and 4000 in 2000 (too high) or 1000.
Maybe I'll try out 1000 as I think I just don't move my right hand enough with 1600 dpi :/
On April 03 2013 04:29 Cyro wrote: 800 is a good number, i'd strongly reccomend it as a starting point for anyone looking for mouse accuracy and strong muscle memory etc on 1920x1080, don't be so quick to dismiss it.
I definitely would choose 800 as a starting point. If that is too slow for you I would use 1600 CPI with 7/20 (resulting in 1000 CPI). 7/20 is inconsistent in the way it drops counts, but you have no choice if 800 is too slow for you.
I went with 4000 CPI and 4/20 now, which should result in 1000 while remaining harmonic, right?
Nice information. btw fixed in HOTS? (now 50% default value.) unlike WOL (51% default value.) mousesensitivity=0.500000 (in game 50%) , mousesensitivity=0.509934 (in game 51%) in variable.txt thus now 50% 1:1 ratio ?
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: It's good to have discussions like these on the forums, I believe there will be more in the future as players become more aware of the importance of gaming peripherals to performance.
Definitely. Esport has a long way to go.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: However, it's important to realize that what players are actually looking for isn't the "right sensitivity" or even the "right mouse". The real question being asked is, "How can I click things in the game in a fast, smooth, precise, and consistent manner?" This distinction is important because gaming peripherals and game settings are actual a means to an end rather than ends in themselves.
I agree. But as of now a perfectly configured mouse simply is the state of the art. Things like Occulus and The Leap have the potential to change everything. But they aren’t there, yet. Further: they are much more suited for FPS than RTS. That’s why mice will stick around for a few years to come … I agree that sensitivity is much more than “how fast is my mouse”. I very much enjoyed reading your post. You have a deep understanding of how different aspects play together.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: mouse grip styles (and also their associated pivots) and mouse pads are also huge contributing factors.
I agree. Mouse pads sadly have a hard time in the RTS scene. I don’t know how often I’ve seen people proudly stating that they use their table or a peace of paper (and of course the infamous 5 € mouse and 10 € keyboard).
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: For palm grip players this mean that your pivot is further up your arm (wrist, elbow, shoulder, basically anywhere you have joints). Your movements are often sweeping and larger than other mouse grip types which means you tend to have lower sensitivity settings (this will refer to both DPI and software-based) and frequently pick up the mouse to reposition it to reach the edges of your screen … Generally, palm grip players and/or players with lower sensitivities find it easier to lift up their mouse a small amount to reposition because of their pivot (this has to do with economy of motion and how it's easier for a player with a wrist or even elbow pivot to pick up a mouse higher than a player with a shoulder pivot). Consequently, even a player with a resolution/sensitivity combination that would be viewed as "slow" if you only considered those 2 factors could be moving quite quickly in-game with the right grip/pad. They would simply be using more mouse surface area and constantly picking up their mouse to achieve this speed (but gaining greater control in the process). As a final caveat, I want to add that FPS players tend to use this grip the most because of the control it gives and how movement in their game works. Unlike in RTS games, an FPS player will often use "big" movements to move in their game which requires them to pan camera angles than move across pixels on a flat environment. Also when compared to RTS games, they typically do not need to change directions constantly, rapidly, or unexpectedly when doing such a panning movement and use smaller movements to aim their weapon. This also means that a mouse designed with this type of use in mind will have a higher "perfect control speed" (e.g. how fast the mouse can physical move while still maintaining perfect tracking on its sensors) than for games that feature more players with claw or fingertip grips.
Again, I agree. I think palm grip is not the best choice for playing RTS. It may very well be for FPS. But when it comes to RTS I think fingertip grip is superior.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: Fingertip grip players will almost always have their pivot at the wrist and generally have the highest sensitivities. They will also pick up the mouse far less (some players will even have their sensitivities high enough so that they don't need to). This also means that you need to be applying constant tension to your nerves and tendons in order to be able to have control over such precise movements over such short distances (you basically need to have control as fine as a sixteenth of an inch compared to 3-4 inches) and is why people say it causes RSI. It's tension that causes injuries. The repetitive in RSI is when you apply constantly tension, repeatedly. Personally, I've spent over 3 months trying to get used to 2300 DPI on 1920x1080 for SC2 and decided that I just couldn't get the control down at the precision I needed for professional level play. I've since switched to 1150 and am aiming for 800 with a faster pad.
3 months should be long enough of an experiment. -_- Lower CPI and a faster pad sounds good.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: You can basically think of these things as how "zoomed in" you are with your mouse. Generally, a lower sensitivity means more pad surface area which results in greater granularity of control. The sacrifice in speed is actual relative to physical mouse movement (e.g. move the mouse more, faster to have the same speed in-game as someone with higher sensitivity).
I think many people play RTS with high CPI out of two reasons: - They think more CPI is strictly better. And if they are able to handle 4000 CPI they must be super gosu as opposed to someone who plays with low CPI. - They think they will be significantly faster when using high CPI. It is of course true, that a mouse running with 4000 CPI moves four times as fast as a mouse with 1000 CPI. However: the 4000 CPI player has to move his mouse slower. Why? Because other wise he just couldn’t be precise enough. The 1000 CPI player on the other side can move his mouse faster to compensate for his low CPI. So it’s just as you said: “The sacrifice in speed is actual relative to physical mouse movement.”
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: "Smooth" I'll define smoothness as "the speed and economy of motion at which a player is able to move from one complete mouse action to the next". Translated to sports-terms, it would be akin to agility; it is also related to Day9's "hang". As touched upon in "speed", this is something that RTS games place heavy emphasis on (especially at higher levels). In sports-terms it would be like basketball as opposed to tennis where change of direction happens much more frequently at shorter travel distances. Here, players with palm/claw grip types (and their associated sensitivities and pivots) will benefit more from a mouse pad with faster initial movement. This is also very closely associated with mouse accuracy since you finish one complete mouse action that much more efficiently (Day9's click once, instead of spamming with mouse), so you can smoothly transition into the next.
I like to call this «continuousness» or «seamlessness» (which sadly isn’t a proper word). This is really important when playing mouse speed games like Reflex on missionred.com, too. You can’t spam clicks. And if there are lots of targets efficient mouse movement is of prime importance. Further: you cannot get out of the zone, our your rythm. You have to keep your pace and avoid hiccups. Concerning mousepads: I concur that mousepads with very low initial movement resistance are key for fingertip grip/RTS.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: "Precise" I've pretty much already covered this at this point, but I'll try to elaborate as best as I can. The reason you're generally going to have much better precision with a lower sensitivity is because you're much less likely to over or undershoot if your movement isn't a short twitching motion (like with high sensitivity).
Agree.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: It really comes down to granularity of control within your pivot. Picking up your mouse to reposition your pivot will be awkward at first (what isn't at first?) but once you get used to it, it enables you to have the best of both worlds.
How often would you have to lift off your mouse if your cursor is located in the upper right corner and you wanted to click on the mini map?
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: You'll often notice Koreans twitch their mouse laterally (using pivot) then reposition their mouse across the pad to do this. You won't really lose accuracy doing this and the "dead time" you have while you pick up the mouse and reposition it can easily be mitigated with skill (e.g. knowing when to pick up your mouse so managing your range of motion in-game). The physical movements in keyboard and mouse (e.g. how to hit control groups faster with your fingers, reposition mouse, how to physically click the buttons) are another aspect of mechanics that are often overlooked (as opposed to not getting supply blocked) but that's for another post.
This really is very advanced.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: Note that I assume that we are not working with software-based mouse acceleration (most commonly enhanced pointer precision in Windows). Sensor-based (on the mouse itself, generally much less severe) is much more manageable and should be [comparably] compatible with my post. It's basically possible to get used to sensor-based acceleration, but not ideal.
I think it’s best to avoid sensor-based acceleration (ergo: avoid using mice with 9500/9800 sensors like the Xai, Sensei and some Logitech mice). On the other hand only 9500/9800 allow you to precisely set your CPI on a hardware level. Life isn’t fair …
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: "Consistent" Like precision, this has been covered for the most part but it's also unique in that your equipment probably matters the most here. While it's possible to somewhat get used to some inconsistencies like acceleration, when you put it all together it really does come down to how reliable your equipment is so you have to adjust as minimally as possible. This is especially important for tournament players as you're now contending with your own body as another source of possible inconsistency. Nerves, adrenaline, doubt, concentration, these are only some of the factors that can affect how you personally answer, "How can I click things in the game in a fast, smooth, precise, and consistent manner?" when it matters most. Even for more casual players, ladder anxiety alone can make you overshoot the minerals with your initial split (or rally). Having greater control and margin for error with consistent equipment along with a lower sensitivity allows you to get into a rhythm without having to constantly second-guess yourself.
I agree in that inconsistency is evil and has to be avoided. That’s why I don’t use a mouse with a 9500/9800 sensor. Even if 6 % acceleration doesn’t sound like much. It adds up. So what’s your stand on polling? Do you prefer a polling rate which is always at 500 Hz or would you prefer polling which fluctuates between 600-900 Hz (therefore being faster but more inconsistent)?
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: Note: A mouse like the MiCO is a good example of a mouse where a lot of the angles in this post have been considered. The stiff mouse switches that people tend to complain about are the result of a claw-esque grip from the StarTale players who press on them much harder and from a vertical angle than most players are accustomed to. I personally went from a Xai to the AM-GS to the MiCo (for SC2) and the transition from the Xai to the AM-GS was the hardest since that was the biggest jump in switch stiffness. I've since gotten used to it and while my double-click speed is strictly slower than the Xai, I frankly don't need it and prefer the firm click now instead. It gives me a greater sense of control so I don't spam or accidentally click as much and is more than sufficient for engagements and such.
So you prefer claw grip over fingertip grip? Care to elaborate?
On April 03 2013 05:13 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Maybe this is the break I need to finally get GM!!!!..... lolol
Good luck with that. Keep us informed.
On April 03 2013 05:17 DeadlyStar wrote: lol blue... i saw ur pic in the blog and thought, wtf i know him, isnt this ips.blue? and yes he is xD. dunno if you remember me, back then my nick was mulliwulli or something like that and i often played games with you and avenger xD. sadly IPS isnt anymore .
Mulliwulli sounds familiar. DeadlyStar definitely being an improvement, name wise. ^^ Good old times …
On April 03 2013 05:17 DeadlyStar wrote: nice work btw , back then you were already an mousefreak
Always have been, always will be. ;P
On April 03 2013 05:18 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: I went with 4000 CPI and 4/20 now, which should result in 1000 while remaining harmonic, right?
According to Skylit (No. #1 mouse tester on the planet) 4000 CPI on the Savu should only be used with 125 Hz in order to reduce jitter. So now you have an interesting decision to make: Harmonic count dropping but slower response time (the difference between 1000 Hz and 125 is a whopping 7 ms) vs. inconsistent count dropping but faster response time. I would choose inconsistent count dropping but faster response time over harmonic count dropping but slower response time. 125 Hz is just so sluggish. However: dropping counts helps against jitter, so maybe you could get away with 500 Hz. how jittery do your paint drawings look when using the Savu with 4000 CPI and 4/20 on 1000 Hz/500 Hz? Try finding a good compromise.
On April 03 2013 04:43 dicedicerevolution wrote: Fingertip grip players will almost always have their pivot at the wrist and generally have the highest sensitivities. They will also pick up the mouse far less (some players will even have their sensitivities high enough so that they don't need to). This also means that you need to be applying constant tension to your nerves and tendons in order to be able to have control over such precise movements over such short distances (you basically need to have control as fine as a sixteenth of an inch compared to 3-4 inches) and is why people say it causes RSI. It's tension that causes injuries. The repetitive in RSI is when you apply constantly tension, repeatedly. Personally, I've spent over 3 months trying to get used to 2300 DPI on 1920x1080 for SC2 and decided that I just couldn't get the control down at the precision I needed for professional level play. I've since switched to 1150 and am aiming for 800 with a faster pad.
This needs to be called out and discussed exhaustively. Exploding wrists are such a huge factor in pro and amateur gaming and it's my view that injuries of this nature if they cannot be avoided should prevent playing.
Thanks for the great write up. I'm currently switching from BW to SC2 and I need some advice. The LMO, which had around 500 DPI I believe, was my mouse of choice in BW. So I went and set my DPI to 1600 (G9x, 1920 x 1080 in game and desktop). However, the mouse feels quite a bit faster than in BW. Shouldn't it feel about the same even with a different aspect ratio? Could it be that I'm just missing a setting or do I just have to get used to the new settings? I suspect it's the latter, but any help from you guys would be great. Thanks
On April 03 2013 21:22 MildCocoA wrote: fixed in HOTS? (now 50% default value.) unlike WOL (51% default value.) mousesensitivity=0.500000 (in game 50%) , mousesensitivity=0.509934 (in game 51%) in variable.txt thus now 50% 1:1 ratio ?
I agree in that consistency is evil and has to be avoided. That’s why I don’t use a mouse with a 9500/9800 sensor. Even if 6 % acceleration doesn’t sound like much. It adds up.
Its not the fact that acceleration is bad - It's bad for a lot of reasons, don't get me wrong there, it's also useful for advanced users though.
What is NOT useful is a hardware acceleration curve that looks AT ALL remotely close to this:
This is just flat out bad, in EVERY WAY. It's not acceleration - its flat out inconsistent response. Your mouse could move 97 or 105 pixels from the same movement. It's completely worthless and a major hardware defect. Moving the mouse faster does not increase responsiveness - it makes it wildly fluctuate between moving faster than normal and not, so going from 0.8m/s to 1m/s could lower your sens by 7%. Going to 1.2m/s could increase it by that ~7% or so again - until it falls below normal, then rises, then falls, etc. The mouse's actual response averages out to something like 5% faster than it is supposed to track - but its actual response, sensitivity, is just a wildly fluctuating mess that makes it flat out BAD for the user.
THIS is what a USEFUL acceleration curve can look like:
Green line with accel, Orange line without. Numbers entirely made up. It can be more or less steep, it can even have different steps where acceleration amount changes, but most important thing is that it does not look anything like the top 2 graphs at all. Of course it can also be a curve, exponentially increasing, etc - not just a solid line, but nothing of any use looks anything like the hardware problems in such sensors.
On April 03 2013 23:49 tili wrote: Do you have any advice/an overview for mac users?
Bootcamp, as suggested by dreamseller, could be a solution. If you want to stick to your Mac: Here is a short SC 2 Mac Guide.
On April 04 2013 00:12 patzer0145 wrote: Thanks for the great write up. I'm currently switching from BW to SC2 and I need some advice. The LMO, which had around 500 DPI I believe, was my mouse of choice in BW. So I went and set my DPI to 1600 (G9x, 1920 x 1080 in game and desktop). However, the mouse feels quite a bit faster than in BW. Shouldn't it feel about the same even with a different aspect ratio? Could it be that I'm just missing a setting or do I just have to get used to the new settings?
BW ran with 640×480. You run SC 2 with 1920×1080. 640 fits exactly three times into 1920. 480 fits 2.25 times into 1080. I remember the LMO to have more like 400 CPI. 400 CPI times three makes 1200. As your mouse has 1600 CPI this should feel a little faster. Considering you only have 2.25 times more vertical pixels, the difference in speed gets even more pronounced.
On April 04 2013 00:53 Cyro wrote: Its not the fact that acceleration is bad - It's bad for a lot of reasons, don't get me wrong there, it's also useful for advanced users though.
You’re right. The 9500/9800 not only have acceleration, but they also behave inconsistent. Even if the 9500/9800 only had the kind of straight acceleration you drew up in your last picture, I still would not recommend this mouse. The reason being: If I wanted to test out acceleration, I would want to be able to perfectly control the acceleration curve.
I am so surprised that most people use very low dpi settings, like 800. I myself use 1700 and I just can't hit stuff with low speed anymore. Well I could but I really really dislike moving my whole arm. Just as with playing guitar I only use my wrists as a pivot. I didn't start out with high(er) speed settings, but thanks to Osu! I'm quite fast and accurate now with my settings. I'd say if you want to adapt to a new speed massing Osu! plays is ideal to create the muscle memory needed. But don't expect to be gosu instantly, it takes time. Like improving your guitar technique takes a lot of time.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote: Definitely. Esport has a long way to go.
Thanks for the reply! Your responses were insightful and a pleasure to read. I also agree that ESports has a ways to go and more attention to detail in equipment (and hopefully better equipment as a result) is a step in the right direction. However, that also opens a whole new can of worms, namely using endorsing a brand or a model while using something else. Here's an example from tennis. In ESports, there's a picture of Rapha, one of the best Quake players ever using a WMO with a black paint job and a SS sticker despite being a part of SK gaming which is sponsored by SS. There was a picture in The Ultimate Mouse thread but there's no view all option now and Google wasn't helpful
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote: I agree. But as of now a perfectly configured mouse simply is the state of the art. Things like Occulus and The Leap have the potential to change everything. But they aren’t there, yet. Further: they are much more suited for FPS than RTS. That’s why mice will stick around for a few years to come … I agree that sensitivity is much more than “how fast is my mouse”. I very much enjoyed reading your post. You have a deep understanding of how different aspects play together.
I hadn't considered other [future] peripherals when I made that statement. There are other things now like certain gaming gloves but I don't know if any of them will have an impact on RTS. Namely, in StarCraft you often don't look at the action you're actively performing which isn't possible with eye-tracking based equipment. You're probably right that these things are more suited for FPS because they often using "3D" physical motions (which correlate to 3D actions in-game) while RTS games are currently still "flat" and the linear motions of a mouse and keyboard are best suited for that kind of gaming environment.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote: I agree. Mouse pads sadly have a hard time in the RTS scene. I don’t know how often I’ve seen people proudly stating that they use their table or a peace of paper (and of course the infamous 5 € mouse and 10 € keyboard).
In addition to people not being aware of mouse pads being important, I think lesser known brands like Artisan are often overlooked in favor by bigger sponsoring brands like Razer and SS. I believe this is a mistake as Artisan makes some of the best pads in the market. Personally I've tried the Artisan Shiden-kai and Hayate and they really change the feel of my mouse. For example, I play SC2 on 1920x1080 and my Zowie AM-GS at 1150 DPI on the SS QcK felt slower than my Zowie MiCO at 800 DPI on the Artisan Shiden-Kai.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:Again, I agree. I think palm grip is not the best choice for playing RTS. It may very well be for FPS. But when it comes to RTS I think fingertip grip is superior.
I believe for RTS it really boils down to most players preferring their pivots to be at their wrist rather than a specific grip type. This would mean that fingertip and claw are both commonly used. If you look at a lot of pro gamers (VODs of hand movements, live, etc.) they tend to pick up their pivot a lot which would suggest that most of them are either claw or fingertip with low sensitivity. The MiCO itself was designed with the claw grip in mind (at least according to them), and Flash definitely uses a claw grip. As previously mentioned, I believe the demands of the game really do drive the choices players make.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote: 3 months should be long enough of an experiment. -_- Lower CPI and a faster pad sounds good.
I felt it important to note that I spent a sufficient amount of time in trying a new setup out. People often try for only a week or a couple of days before giving up and not giving themselves enough time to adjust. I think we both agree that these things take time and commitment to really test out (although 3 months would probably be on the more 'thorough' side of the scale).
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:I think many people play RTS with high CPI out of two reasons: - They think more CPI is strictly better. And if they are able to handle 4000 CPI they must be super gosu as opposed to someone who plays with low CPI. - They think they will be significantly faster when using high CPI. It is of course true, that a mouse running with 4000 CPI moves four times as fast as a mouse with 1000 CPI. However: the 4000 CPI player has to move his mouse slower. Why? Because other wise he just couldn’t be precise enough. The 1000 CPI player on the other side can move his mouse faster to compensate for his low CPI. So it’s just as you said: “The sacrifice in speed is actual relative to physical mouse movement.”
You are completely right, and I don't think I articulated that point clearly enough in my post. The flaw in many people's thinking is that they believe DPI is the primary means of adjusting their mouse speed. Higher DPI is faster from the perspective of physically moving your mouse a set distance, but it's possible to compensate for lower DPI by physically moving the mouse more, and faster. The increased physical movement of the mouse would mean the surface matters more, and therefore the mouse pad being a vital component.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote: I like to call this «continuousness» or «seamlessness» (which sadly isn’t a proper word). This is really important when playing mouse speed games like Reflex on missionred.com, too. You can’t spam clicks. And if there are lots of targets efficient mouse movement is of prime importance. Further: you cannot get out of the zone, our your rythm. You have to keep your pace and avoid hiccups. Concerning mousepads: I concur that mousepads with very low initial movement resistance are key for fingertip grip/RTS.
I agree. I hadn't considered mouse accuracy flash games like that (and I do play them, too). They are a great example of demonstrating the importance of all this as Mission Red is to the 100M dash (pure athletic competition) as StarCraft is to soccer (athletic competition with a large skill component).
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote: How often would you have to lift off your mouse if your cursor is located in the upper right corner and you wanted to click on the mini map?
Personally for the me, it only took 1 flick and a mouse lift to get from corner to corner. Unfortunately, I returned my MiCO and the Shiden-kai because they had some defects that I was not satisfied with, so I couldn't give you a more detailed example. I've since switched to the Hayate mouse pad and my new MiCO should be arriving today. The flick/lift motion really does take getting used to if you came from just a fingetip/no pivot pick-up motion, but you do get greater granularity of control. If you watch any of the pro VODs in this and other threads, you should see the pro gamers use a small flicking motion right before lifting their mouse. I believe this is also why the MiCO has a relatively high LOD (2mm) compared to the EC eVo (1.5mm) designed by Counter-Strike legend HeatoN. The high LOD allows you to track a little bit longer on the pad while you flick to get you exactly where you want to on-screen. Unfortunately, this also means you have to be careful in selecting your mouse pad for LOD distance and I'm not sure if this sort of knowledge has been disseminated among the manufacturers.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:This really is very advanced.
I think a lot of people have the notion that pros, particularly Korean pros "just do it" and don't really put much thought into out-of-game stuff. I've noticed this on some mouse enthusiast forums and even here on TL. This is all part of professionalizing the sport.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote: I think it’s best to avoid sensor-based acceleration (ergo: avoid using mice with 9500/9800 sensors like the Xai, Sensei and some Logitech mice). On the other hand only 9500/9800 allow you to precisely set your CPI on a hardware level. Life isn’t fair …
I do agree it's generally best to avoid acceleration wherever possible. I've personally used the Xai for almost 2 years and felt that it was generally consistent (and avoided looking at too much information saying it was not, placebo effect) and I also see some pro gamers actually use products that are known to have acceleration issues. These things led me to conclude that it is possible to use them proficiently, but it is obviously not ideal. Cryo's post is interesting, and I think at it's core it just expresses a fundamental truth (even outside of this mouse context): inconsistency is bad, but if it's possible to consistently control that inconsistency, it can be managed. Being able to precisely set my DPI on a hardware level was one of the draws for me that led to purchasing the Xai and believing it was a requirement for future mice purchases. However, now I believe that DPI can get you to the 'general' range you want to be at and using a proper grip/pad to fine-tune is better. This would be especially true if you're really trying to optimize yourself for competitive play.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote: I agree in that consistency is evil and has to be avoided. That’s why I don’t use a mouse with a 9500/9800 sensor. Even if 6 % acceleration doesn’t sound like much. It adds up. So what’s your stand on polling? Do you prefer a polling rate which is always at 500 Hz or would you prefer polling which fluctuates between 600-900 Hz (therefore being faster but more inconsistent)?
From my understanding, polling is one of those things where it's generally believed that "higher is better" when in reality it's not an independent factor and having the "right" value is most important (which would mean it's not necessarily always 1000mhz). As I'm sure you're aware, certain mice jitter or get inconsistent with USB polling rates that are too high among other things. So personally, I'd rather much have the manufacturer have a clearly stated purpose (this mouse is designed for RTS games that have these set demands so we're going to make a product that specifically addresses them) instead of an all-rounder that just ends up being mediocre or worse because too many concessions were made in the name of versatility (and potentially marketing gimmick). I would of course prefer a polling rate that was consistent, even if it wasn't the fastest. As I understand it, a mouse with specific usage demands will require certain component decisions (limited by available technology) which would then necessitate a specific USB polling rate. Assuming that, I'd much prefer a "lower" and consistent USB polling rate that would maximize the rest of the mouse. If the technology improves and it's possible to have "faster" and "consistent", great.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote:So you prefer claw grip over fingertip grip? Care to elaborate?
I've personally switched from claw to fingertip grip after switching from Xai to AM-GS, and I was experimenting with claw again on the MiCO. I honestly haven't been able to use the mouse enough yet to really decide on what feels best. Really, for me I'm not particularly set on a certain grip style and I'm more concerned about getting the best performance possible in-game. If that means swapping my setup, then so be it. That said, certain mice definitely cater to a specific grip type more so than others and certain setups (that require certain grip(s)) are more comfortable than others. I try to keep an open mind and use my knowledge as a starting point to try and find what feels natural to me (no excess tension in tendons, etc.) rather than have an idea like, "I'm using a MiCO, I have to pair it with a fast hard/hybrid pad and use a claw grip while constantly picking up the mouse for best results."
On a side note, I believe a minimalist approach where it's simply plug and play (where less things can go wrong), is preferable for a mouse that is going to see a lot of tournament action. The Xai was intriguing to me before because it had the features to be extremely customizable, yet didn't require driver installations (more things that can go wrong) to do it. Unfortunately, issues with the on-board hardware (it wouldn't retain DPI sometimes) really highlighted to me that reliability trumped additional features (as it often does in products where reliability cannot be compromised: you don't want your gun to jam while you're in the middle of a fire fight in Afghanistan). As of now, the MiCO is the best thing on the market from what I've tried (which is admittedly a small sample) and read (much more than what I've sampled). I don't mean to advertise or anything, but I'm not one to shy from being candid.
On April 03 2013 23:40 dreamseller wrote: This needs to be called out and discussed exhaustively. Exploding wrists are such a huge factor in pro and amateur gaming and it's my view that injuries of this nature if they cannot be avoided should prevent playing.
As pedantic as I can be, what I wrote is still a "best estimate" of what might actually be and I'm constantly revising it. I'm fairly confident that my construct is in the right direction, but I also don't know enough about the usage habits of Korean progamers. What I can say with certainty is that they are some of the highest usage groups in the world so therefore at the greatest risk of developing problems. It could be that playing for the better part of a day everyday for the better part of a decade just isn't good for you no matter how you do things. It could be that the demands placed on these progamers just to be competitive isn't healthy for the long-term. This wouldn't be the first time that something like this has been true in sports. Football has concussions, and gymnastics (especially women's) is a striking example of how competitive demands push the envelope so much for young athletes that there is an ever-increasing demand on skills that put ever-increasing stress on the body (which means that no matter how hard you train, your body can just be "done" with top level competition before you're 20). Maybe we'll look back on this one day and see this as the wild west days of ESports, but I do believe that increased scrutiny can lead to innovations that help the players (or at least have something to take care of them after they retire).
On April 04 2013 01:39 PanzerElite wrote: I am so surprised that most people use very low dpi settings, like 800. I myself use 1700 and I just can't hit stuff with low speed anymore. Well I could but I really really dislike moving my whole arm. Just as with playing guitar I only use my wrists as a pivot. I didn't start out with high(er) speed settings, but thanks to Osu! I'm quite fast and accurate now with my settings. I'd say if you want to adapt to a new speed massing Osu! plays is ideal to create the muscle memory needed. But don't expect to be gosu instantly, it takes time. Like improving your guitar technique takes a lot of time.
I agree with this. I'd say 400 on 1920x1080 is "very low" though, and 600-1.2k is golden range on 1920x1080 if you want the best accuracy, precision, muscle memory etc, depending on tastes
I've got an issue I was hoping someone could help me with. I bought a razer Abyssus black edition with the 3.5G infrared sensor.
The mouse only has 3 DPI settings. 450/1800/350. The 450 is far too slow, and the 1800 is far too fast when my windows sensitivity is set to 6/11 and the ingame setting set to 51. There are some drivers for the mouse available on the razer website. It comes with some software that lets you change the sensitivity but from what I understand from this thread, I shoudlnt be using that.
So I uninstalled it, and i'm left with the 3 dpi settings. None of which are ideal. I'm trying to get the mouse movement recorder software but for the life of me can't seem to find a link to the correct program. Can anyone provide me a download link?
My question is: does setting a value less than 6/11 in the windows settings have negative consequences. From what I'm understanding the probrable answer is yes. So what I need to do is get that mouse movement recorder software and find a sweet spot where my mouse has a 1/1 ratio. Can someone please direct me to a download link?
Control + F and look for "Mouse Movement Recorder"
Bookmark the thread, too.
Not too keen on the Razer Abyssus drivers and if they're a good idea. I've heard older Synapse drivers were O.K. and still floating around on the internet, but I'd defer to someone who knows more.
Adjusting your software sensitivity (windows or in-game) helps compensate for mouse DPI, but it will still result in skipping, just a more "consistent" kind of skipping.
Razer sensitivity does not seem too bad. I mean it does not create any easily measurable skipping, it only downscales sens and a lot of smart people reccomended to use it (to downscale sens) with the 1800dpi step of the deathadder 3.5g (it's native sensor resolution) for best performance, as control speeds and other things are worse on other hardware dpi steps
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I also agree that ESports has a ways to go and more attention to detail in equipment (and hopefully better equipment as a result) is a step in the right direction. However, that also opens a whole new can of worms, namely using endorsing a brand or a model while using something else. Here's an example from tennis. In ESports, there's a picture of Rapha, one of the best Quake players ever using a WMO with a black paint job and a SS sticker despite being a part of SK gaming which is sponsored by SS. There was a picture in The Ultimate Mouse thread but there's no view all option now and Google wasn't helpful
I know that picture of Rapha. I’m very impressed with Rapha doing the sticker thing by the way. I’d imagine Steelseries was not amused. Most players just use whatever crap they get handed by their sponsor …
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: In addition to people not being aware of mouse pads being important, I think lesser known brands like Artisan are often overlooked in favor by bigger sponsoring brands like Razer and SS. I believe this is a mistake as Artisan makes some of the best pads in the market. Personally I've tried the Artisan Shiden-kai and Hayate and they really change the feel of my mouse. For example, I play SC2 on 1920x1080 and my Zowie AM-GS at 1150 DPI on the SS QcK felt slower than my Zowie MiCO at 800 DPI on the Artisan Shiden-Kai.
I have an Artisan Kai.G3 and a Shiden (the first one). I’m always amazed as to the gliding difference between the two of them. I agree that Artisan is one of the best — or maybe even the best. They are immensely innovative, but they should hire proper translators. ^^
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: Mission Red is to the 100M dash (pure athletic competition) as StarCraft is to soccer (athletic competition with a large skill component).
Well said.
On April 03 2013 22:27 blueslobster wrote: How often would you have to lift off your mouse if your cursor is located in the upper right corner and you wanted to click on the mini map?
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I believe this is also why the MiCO has a relatively high LOD (2mm) compared to the EC eVo (1.5mm) ... The high LOD allows you to track a little bit longer on the pad while you flick to get you exactly where you want to on-screen. Unfortunately, this also means you have to be careful in selecting your mouse pad for LOD distance and I'm not sure if this sort of knowledge has been disseminated among the manufacturers.
When using the flick/lift motion you describe a very low LOD can be beneficial. The reason being that the lower the LOD the lesser you have to lift the mouse. And the lesser you have to lift your mouse, the faster your lift off will be.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I've personally switched from claw to fingertip grip after switching from Xai to AM-GS, and I was experimenting with claw again on the MiCO … That said, certain mice definitely cater to a specific grip type more so than others and certain setups (that require certain grip(s)) are more comfortable than others. I try to keep an open mind and use my knowledge as a starting point to try and find what feels natural to me (no excess tension in tendons, etc.) rather than have an idea like, "I'm using a MiCO, I have to pair it with a fast hard/hybrid pad and use a claw grip while constantly picking up the mouse for best results."
I always think of claw grip as limiting when compared to fingertip grip. I find that fingertip grip allows for a lower sensitivity than claw grip, because when using fingertip grip you have a higher vertical amplitude (achieved through stretching out your fingers).
So finally I decided to reduce the dpi to 1000 (from 1200), I'll see how it goes.
What about mouse size? I have a small hands but and I'm using the g9x without any shell and my pinky seems to be having trouble finding the right place to rest (or more like there is not enough space). I actually notice this after reducing the dpi, a bit strange.
Previously I used MX518 for a good 5 years, still working like a charm btw, but i was getting tired of its form and wanted to try something new in this case g9x.
I am in the same situation as mushlafa where 6/11 is too fast at 1800 CPI on my Razer Abyssus. I have found that 5/11 is a good setting for me at this CPI. My question is how do I know what 5/11 is on StarCraft 2 mouse settings? Would it be similar to the settings under "Software" where you give settings /20 and percentages on StarCraft 2? If so, what percentage corresponds to 5/11? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
@Fr0z3nFL4mE: You can disable SC2's own sensitivity in the latest patch. There's a check mark in the options you can tick off. It will then simply use the Windows desktop settings and you won't have to adjust anything.
On April 05 2013 09:48 Ropid wrote: @Fr0z3nFL4mE: You can disable SC2's own sensitivity in the latest patch. There's a check mark in the options you can tick off. It will then simply use the Windows desktop settings and you won't have to adjust anything.
Like what the blog post said, it would introduce latency (although it's not as noticeable due to it being microsecond/nanosecond difference so it would not matter to me). But I like the idea of me not having to change the sensitivity when I'm playing on different computers because the setting would be on battle.net.
I guess I'll have to live with it or just fiddle with the sensitivity slider until it feels the same as the 5/11 setting on windows lol.
I've read that the Zowie never fixed the issue on the Mico about the tracking bug. To does of you who use this mouse is it noticeable and knowing that they have yet to fix it is the mouse still worth getting? Ordered a g100s but still wondering if I should get the mico.
On April 05 2013 09:48 Ropid wrote: @Fr0z3nFL4mE: You can disable SC2's own sensitivity in the latest patch. There's a check mark in the options you can tick off. It will then simply use the Windows desktop settings and you won't have to adjust anything.
Like what the blog post said, it would introduce latency (although it's not as noticeable due to it being microsecond/nanosecond difference so it would not matter to me). But I like the idea of me not having to change the sensitivity when I'm playing on different computers because the setting would be on battle.net.
I guess I'll have to live with it or just fiddle with the sensitivity slider until it feels the same as the 5/11 setting on windows lol.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a post somewhere mentioning that SC2 has more than the 11 notches of Windows and has 5 % steps. The 6/11 from Windows is the 51%-54% setting in SC2. Your 5/11 should be 41%-44% in SC2. If that does not feel right, you could also try 36-39% or 46-49%.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I believe this is also why the MiCO has a relatively high LOD (2mm) compared to the EC eVo (1.5mm) ... The high LOD allows you to track a little bit longer on the pad while you flick to get you exactly where you want to on-screen. Unfortunately, this also means you have to be careful in selecting your mouse pad for LOD distance and I'm not sure if this sort of knowledge has been disseminated among the manufacturers.
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote: When using the flick/lift motion you describe a very low LOD can be beneficial. The reason being that the lower the LOD the lesser you have to lift the mouse. And the lesser you have to lift your mouse, the faster your lift off will be.
A low LOD is more beneficial with a palm grip/high pivot because you want to control the mouse while it's on the mouse pad as much as possible to take advantage of your greater granularity of control. You also have the benefit of working with the entire mouse pad equally since you don't have to worry about replanting your pivot in a good spot to retain mobility.
With a fingertip/claw grip or wrist pivot, having a higher LOD distance allows you to continue moving your mouse during the flick motion which means you don't have to physically move your wrist as much to re-pivot. In some cases it's even possible to not re-pivot at all.
Lifting off the mouse quicker with a low LOD isn't really beneficial because you still have to put the mouse back down and that means that re-adjusting your pivot has to be as accurate as your wrist pivot.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I've personally switched from claw to fingertip grip after switching from Xai to AM-GS, and I was experimenting with claw again on the MiCO … That said, certain mice definitely cater to a specific grip type more so than others and certain setups (that require certain grip(s)) are more comfortable than others. I try to keep an open mind and use my knowledge as a starting point to try and find what feels natural to me (no excess tension in tendons, etc.) rather than have an idea like, "I'm using a MiCO, I have to pair it with a fast hard/hybrid pad and use a claw grip while constantly picking up the mouse for best results."
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote: I always think of claw grip as limiting when compared to fingertip grip. I find that fingertip grip allows for a lower sensitivity than claw grip, because when using fingertip grip you have a higher vertical amplitude (achieved through stretching out your fingers).
The splaying action you're describing for achieving vertical amplitude with a fingertip grip is generally for sensitivities higher than sensitivities that need to re-position its pivot to reach the same range of motion. The fingertip grip in that case has full or almost full range of motion (can reach the edge of the screen), while any grip with a lower sensitivity does not and must re-pivot. The re-pivoting grip can be fingertip or claw, it is possible with both.
I've also found that after you splay your fingers with a fingertip grip, you've reached the edge of your motion and the only natural move is to pull it back to the center. This is suitable for a game like Osu! where actions are predictable, but in a dynamic game like StarCraft you want to constantly maintain full range of motion (which is why you re-pivot).
I'm not entirely sure if a fingertip or claw grip is better for a low sensitivity and constant re-pivoting as I'm honestly just not that experienced enough with both yet. However, I do suspect that the claw grip is slightly friendlier to constant repositioning as a.) it's slightly easier to pick up the mouse and b.) you don't need to put as much tension in your wrist while moving or slightly shifting your pivot because you can get your arm more involved to help your wrist out. Mice like the MiCO also consider this constant repositioning and as a result you have a very small and light mouse (no "adjustable weight" nonsense).
The example I gave about using a claw grip with the MiCO was just that, so don't read too much into it.
On a side note, I received my MiCO but the right click button didn't feel right (doesn't feel firm and I can press down more than I should). I've frankly had bad experiences with quality control on Zowie mice (the AM-GS I had to return once because the rubber coating wasn't even on the buttons and the MiCO has issues with the scroll wheel squeaking and the button click being off). While I'm quite aware that I'm being picky, I believe I am very justified when I'm going to be using this mouse for 10 hours a day. I'd still recommend the mouse, but with a huge asterisk on the quality and more as something "worth a try". It's quite unfortunate that while the products are good when they work well, it's just not that easy to get a perfectly working product (in my limited experience).
On April 04 2013 08:32 mushlafa wrote: My question is: does setting a value less than 6/11 in the windows settings have negative consequences. From what I'm understanding the probrable answer is yes. So what I need to do is get that mouse movement recorder software and find a sweet spot where my mouse has a 1/1 ratio. Can someone please direct me to a download link?
Setting a value less than 6/11 is inferior to 6/11 but most of the time it’s worth it. If you need to use 5/11 because it’s the only way to reach a good sensitivity, go for it. I do it myself. 1:1 ratio has a nice ring to it, but it is difficult to achieve when most mice only have 2-3-4 different CPI steps. And as you may have read: the mice which do allow for super precise CPI adjustments on a hardware level do have inconsistent acceleration (which for many is an absolute deal breaker). This is why many say there is no such thing as a perfect mouse, only compromises.
Also: There is only one setting at which you have a 1:1 ratio, and that is 6/11 (or 10/20 when using Glymbols tool) and 51 % in SC 2. There are no other values which give you 1:1.
With Razer mice I’d install the old Non-Synapse drivers, set the CPI and Hz of your mouse, uninstall it and do the rest with Windows and SC 2. I really don’t like drivers. They are just another variable that can screw you up. And if you’re going to offline events they are even more of an annoyance.
On April 05 2013 08:34 kYem wrote: So finally I decided to reduce the dpi to 1000 (from 1200), I'll see how it goes.
What about mouse size? I have a small hands but and I'm using the g9x without any shell and my pinky seems to be having trouble finding the right place to rest (or more like there is not enough space). I actually notice this after reducing the dpi, a bit strange.
As you reduced your CPI you now have to move your mouse more, in order to compensate. Maybe you’re not used to that yet and as a result your pinky feels umcomfortable. As a general rule (at least for fingertip grip): the smaller your hands, the more CPI you need. The fact that you’re using a relatively large mouse (even without its outer shell the g9x isn’t super small) and have small hands could result in 1000 CPI being to slow for you. I would give 1000 CPI a little more time, though.
On April 05 2013 09:38 Fr0z3nFL4mE wrote: My question is how do I know what 5/11 is on StarCraft 2 mouse settings?!
5/11 (normal Windows value in the control panel) = 8/20 (hidden Windows value) = 41 % (SC 2) = multiplication factor of 0.75. For a complete listing of sensitivity values in Windows and SC 2 see my article. ;P
Ok so I've tested both mice in the mouse movement recorder thing (sensei raw, and abyssus 3.5g) and they both track at a 1:1 ratio unless im moving the mouse wildly fast (much faster than I would in an sc2 enviornment). Is there a reason the mouse movement recorder isn't showing the negative accel that I've heard on the Sensei Raw?
I've also got the sensitivity not exactly where I want it, but I'm willing to work to get used to the slightly lower sensitivity. I think it'll be good for my overall long term health :p. I guess I'm just going to see which mouse feels better for long sessions at this point and make my decision based on that since both of them seem to be tracking at a 1:1 ratio?
On April 06 2013 07:52 mushlafa wrote: Ok so I've tested both mice in the mouse movement recorder thing (sensei raw, and abyssus 3.5g) and they both track at a 1:1 ratio unless im moving the mouse wildly fast (much faster than I would in an sc2 enviornment). Is there a reason the mouse movement recorder isn't showing the negative accel that I've heard on the Sensei Raw?
I've also got the sensitivity not exactly where I want it, but I'm willing to work to get used to the slightly lower sensitivity. I think it'll be good for my overall long term health :p. I guess I'm just going to see which mouse feels better for long sessions at this point and make my decision based on that since both of them seem to be tracking at a 1:1 ratio?
Overclock.net is generally a very good hardware forum, the folks there are knowledgeable and dedicated. There's a difference between the Sensei and the Sensei RAW, the link will clarify it.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I believe this is also why the MiCO has a relatively high LOD (2mm) compared to the EC eVo (1.5mm) ... The high LOD allows you to track a little bit longer on the pad while you flick to get you exactly where you want to on-screen. Unfortunately, this also means you have to be careful in selecting your mouse pad for LOD distance and I'm not sure if this sort of knowledge has been disseminated among the manufacturers.
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote: When using the flick/lift motion you describe a very low LOD can be beneficial. The reason being that the lower the LOD the lesser you have to lift the mouse. And the lesser you have to lift your mouse, the faster your lift off will be.
On April 05 2013 16:50 dicedicerevolution wrote: With a fingertip/claw grip or wrist pivot, having a higher LOD distance allows you to continue moving your mouse during the flick motion which means you don't have to physically move your wrist as much to re-pivot. In some cases it's even possible to not re-pivot at all.
Being able to move your cursor while your mouse is still in the air can make you faster. However: the precision suffers. This is a tricky trade-off.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: Lifting off the mouse quicker with a low LOD isn't really beneficial because you still have to put the mouse back down and that means that re-adjusting your pivot has to be as accurate as your wrist pivot.
Could you make an example?
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I've personally switched from claw to fingertip grip after switching from Xai to AM-GS, and I was experimenting with claw again on the MiCO … That said, certain mice definitely cater to a specific grip type more so than others and certain setups (that require certain grip(s)) are more comfortable than others. I try to keep an open mind and use my knowledge as a starting point to try and find what feels natural to me (no excess tension in tendons, etc.) rather than have an idea like, "I'm using a MiCO, I have to pair it with a fast hard/hybrid pad and use a claw grip while constantly picking up the mouse for best results."
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote: I always think of claw grip as limiting when compared to fingertip grip. I find that fingertip grip allows for a lower sensitivity than claw grip, because when using fingertip grip you have a higher vertical amplitude (achieved through stretching out your fingers).
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I've also found that after you splay your fingers with a fingertip grip, you've reached the edge of your motion and the only natural move is to pull it back to the center. This is suitable for a game like Osu! where actions are predictable, but in a dynamic game like StarCraft you want to constantly maintain full range of motion (which is why you re-pivot).
I agree. You don’t have to glide it back however — you can lift it back to the middle.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I'm not entirely sure if a fingertip or claw grip is better for a low sensitivity and constant re-pivoting as I'm honestly just not that experienced enough with both yet.
I have plenty of experience with fingertip grip (over ten years), but not that much with claw grip (only short experiments). I guess I could be a little biased.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: The splaying action you're describing for achieving vertical amplitude with a fingertip grip is generally for sensitivities higher than sensitivities that need to re-position its pivot to reach the same range of motion. The fingertip grip in that case has full or almost full range of motion (can reach the edge of the screen), while any grip with a lower sensitivity does not and must re-pivot. The re-pivoting grip can be fingertip or claw, it is possible with both. … I do suspect that the claw grip is slightly friendlier to constant repositioning as a.) it's slightly easier to pick up the mouse and b.) you don't need to put as much tension in your wrist while moving or slightly shifting your pivot because you can get your arm more involved to help your wrist out. Mice like the MiCO also consider this constant repositioning and as a result you have a very small and light mouse (no "adjustable weight" nonsense).
Claw grip may be better for repositioning and it might be healthier for your wrist. I still think fingertip grip is superior in vertical movement precision because, as you said, the claw grip utilizes arm movements. When using a SC 2 suiting sensitivity (three digit CPI/Full HD), arm movements are, in my opinion, inferior when it comes to precision. Especially when it comes to precision regarding vertical movements. Of course there is room for palm grip and its arm movements: the realm of very, very low sensitivity (it’s just as you said: you have a very high granularity of control with palm grip and a very low sensitivity). Because at a very, very low sensitivity a fingertip gripping user would spend more time in the air lifting his mouse around, than on his mousepad. This amount of time is, in my eyes (regardless if you’re using fingertip grip or claw grip), the biggest limiting constraint when trying to find a sensitivity as low as possible for SC 2.
What are your thoughts on arm movements when using claw grip?
I suppose if you have the time it would be nice to not only see ideas on mouse use but also support for those ideas with either scientific research or good sourcing (tables and facts etc). Your first post did have this, but I think it's more difficult for some other topics, such as the effects of sensitivity on hand injuries, possible benefits of playing mouse games to improve your mouse handling for starcraft, the ability to research your actual mouse movements in starcraft.
There was this mouse game posted on team liquid once and Nony impressed some people by having a very good score and I figured he must have been adept at such games due to his starcraft training. I wonder if there are ways to measure one's mouse skill objectively (not just the score in some random mouse game) and whether it's possible to determine the quickest way to improve one's skill in this and the specific effect of such skills on one's performance.
I have my own thoughts on this, but it's just some random ideas. If someone is willing to research it thoroughly that would be nice, it might even be beneficial information for pro teams in that case.
I wonder if there are ways to measure one's mouse skill objectively (not just the score in some random mouse game) and whether it's possible to determine the quickest way to improve one's skill in this and the specific effect of such skills on one's performance
It's really tricky to measure. That game in the thread that Nony got an insane score on, for example, its a stupid low resolution like 500x400 - which means i can score 5x higher using 100-200 dpi than 540-1.2k, even though i have muscle memory established there
Different grip styles, sensitivities, a lot of different variables lead up to strenghs in some areas of movement and weakness in others, for instance i can have a ~98.5% accuracy snapping to the left (wild example) but only ~96% making that same movement diagonally up and to the right, just because of my grip and positioning, the weight of my mouse and my sens.
I like Osu, but again, wildly different DPI's are suited to different maps/mods etc. There is really no "one dpi best for everything" or "one grip best for everything", you can just find the best middle ground using values of what is important to you, once you have decent knowledge.
There's a program called IOgraph or IOgraphica or something that tracks mouse movement - Pretty much everybody who uses excessive DPI in starcraft 2, or really, almost anyone at all - there's a lot, a LOT of mouse movement hitting the edges of the screen or dragging around the edges - and a lot less defined movements - when i play at 540dpi for example, i very rarely touch the sides of the screen (i can do it only 2-10 times in a game), using the middle mouse button, minimap, unit, building and camera hotkeys to have the camera where i need it to be without taking longer than somebody using a higher DPI, but, because wasteful actions like scrolling across the entire screen to drag the camera on screen edge is not required, can use like half as much DPI without it feeling slow in a limiting way - If you play horribly inefficiently, you will need a lot more DPI than otherwise, and more DPI just naturally translates into lower accuracy, which is why i really suggest for almost anyone to lower DPI, often quite vastly
I have a 1366x768 resolution screen. Does the 6/11 and 51% rule still apply on this kind of screen? Also, since 51% is too sensitive for me, do I just adjust the sensitivity for my deathadder from the software?
P.S. I quickly skimmed through your article and I apologize in advance if it was stated at some point.
On April 06 2013 19:44 blueslobster wrote: Being able to move your cursor while your mouse is still in the air can make you faster. However: the precision suffers. This is a tricky trade-off.
The precision doesn't really suffer. The flicking motion is a learned skill, very similar to the muscle memory one ingrains with a flicking motion while the mouse is on the pad.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: Lifting off the mouse quicker with a low LOD isn't really beneficial because you still have to put the mouse back down and that means that re-adjusting your pivot has to be as accurate as your wrist pivot.
On April 06 2013 19:44 blueslobster wrote: Could you make an example?
The limiting factor in lifting your mouse off to reposition in StarCraft isn't having a low enough LOD, it's the distance you have to physically reposition your pivot. With 800 DPI and 1920x1080, if the LOD is low then you need to flick harder to reposition your pivot or physically lift the mouse and reposition a longer distance away from where you originally started. You can see in VODs that they barely lift the mouse much and tend to favor a very small/specific area of their mouse pad. You generally want to have your arms out evenly at about shoulder length apart and your hands on the same plane, then keep it that way. If you have to reposition your mouse too far, then you break that form. This is why some players like tenkeyless keyboards (your mouse and keyboards can be positioned more narrowly) and Flash measures his keyboard placement with a ruler and tapes his mouse pad down.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I've personally switched from claw to fingertip grip after switching from Xai to AM-GS, and I was experimenting with claw again on the MiCO … That said, certain mice definitely cater to a specific grip type more so than others and certain setups (that require certain grip(s)) are more comfortable than others. I try to keep an open mind and use my knowledge as a starting point to try and find what feels natural to me (no excess tension in tendons, etc.) rather than have an idea like, "I'm using a MiCO, I have to pair it with a fast hard/hybrid pad and use a claw grip while constantly picking up the mouse for best results."
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote: I always think of claw grip as limiting when compared to fingertip grip. I find that fingertip grip allows for a lower sensitivity than claw grip, because when using fingertip grip you have a higher vertical amplitude (achieved through stretching out your fingers).
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I've also found that after you splay your fingers with a fingertip grip, you've reached the edge of your motion and the only natural move is to pull it back to the center. This is suitable for a game like Osu! where actions are predictable, but in a dynamic game like StarCraft you want to constantly maintain full range of motion (which is why you re-pivot).
On April 06 2013 19:44 blueslobster wrote: I agree. You don’t have to glide it back however — you can lift it back to the middle.
Your wrists also lock a bit when you reach the end of your vertical amplitude, not really ideal. Fingertip or claw, it's generally better to reposition your pivot before you "max out" on your range of motion on a given pivot. This allows you to not get caught flat footed as it were in a sport like tennis. Again, StarCraft is a dynamic environment where precision is demanded while a game like Osu! is a predictable environment where precision is demanded. There are differently things you can do to adjust yourself to deal with constantly changing conditions, and managing your pivot like this is one of them.
Certain actions in StarCraft demand less accuracy than others (boxing units and sending them across the map vs. selecting an individual zergling to micro), pro gamers realize this and tend to reposition their pivot during these "low intensity" periods. Constantly repositoning your pivot (on your terms) to maintain full range of motion also allows you to deal with any unexpected developments.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: I'm not entirely sure if a fingertip or claw grip is better for a low sensitivity and constant re-pivoting as I'm honestly just not that experienced enough with both yet.
On April 05 2013 01:15 blueslobster wrote: I have plenty of experience with fingertip grip (over ten years), but not that much with claw grip (only short experiments). I guess I could be a little biased.
I've got less experience using fingertip grip than that, but it is still the most recent and comfortable grip for me (currently). However, I do notice that on different mice/setups (shells, sensors, mouse pad setup, etc. raw input assumed) the same grip can feel pretty different. There's also the matter of hand size, which really affects what kind of grips are even possible on certain mice. Really all of this is a bit moot to apply "generally" as we tend to have our own setups and mice we have in mind when we talk about what "works for us". The generalization applies sufficiently because of the limited/commonly used types of mice/setup on the market and an "average hand size", not necessarily because it's inherently true.
Personally, I'm thinking mainly of the AM-GS at 1150DPI and MiCO at 800 DPI on a smaller hand when I write these things.
On April 04 2013 02:14 dicedicerevolution wrote: The splaying action you're describing for achieving vertical amplitude with a fingertip grip is generally for sensitivities higher than sensitivities that need to re-position its pivot to reach the same range of motion. The fingertip grip in that case has full or almost full range of motion (can reach the edge of the screen), while any grip with a lower sensitivity does not and must re-pivot. The re-pivoting grip can be fingertip or claw, it is possible with both. … I do suspect that the claw grip is slightly friendlier to constant repositioning as a.) it's slightly easier to pick up the mouse and b.) you don't need to put as much tension in your wrist while moving or slightly shifting your pivot because you can get your arm more involved to help your wrist out. Mice like the MiCO also consider this constant repositioning and as a result you have a very small and light mouse (no "adjustable weight" nonsense).
Claw grip may be better for repositioning and it might be healthier for your wrist. I still think fingertip grip is superior in vertical movement precision because, as you said, the claw grip utilizes arm movements. When using a SC 2 suiting sensitivity (three digit CPI/Full HD), arm movements are, in my opinion, inferior when it comes to precision. Especially when it comes to precision regarding vertical movements. Of course there is room for palm grip and its arm movements: the realm of very, very low sensitivity (it’s just as you said: you have a very high granularity of control with palm grip and a very low sensitivity). Because at a very, very low sensitivity a fingertip gripping user would spend more time in the air lifting his mouse around, than on his mousepad. This amount of time is, in my eyes (regardless if you’re using fingertip grip or claw grip), the biggest limiting constraint when trying to find a sensitivity as low as possible for SC 2.
What are your thoughts on arm movements when using claw grip?[/QUOTE]
The arm movements don't really contribute much except to help reposition, and the degree of movement generally isn't very drastic. Just to be clear, your arm is not used in any precision movements, it's always the pivot, this does not change. As mentioned previously, between trying to maintain form (not everyone has the same mouse/keyboard placement/form) and repositioning at key times in a game (a learned skill, and for most pros very subconscious), picking up the mouse doesn't really have a negative impact on playing the game. You want accuracy which a low sens provides with a pivot, you want dynamic range of motion which repositioning gives, any drawback of the "dead time in transit" during these 2 actions is largely mitigated from experience. I cannot think of an example where a pro gamer lost because "he was in the middle of repositioning his pivot".
You can see Sase at the beginning uses a lot more arm than the other pros, while some players like Creator and Polt don't really move their arms much. Taeja and MC do reposition, but very slightly like they're pushing the mouse a little bit forward. Everyone keeps their fingers curled and does not splay them.
It's important to keep in mind through all this that the pros and cons of a grip is still, ultimately a means to end.
This was really helpful. I noticed before that my mouse was skipping pixels, but never really took the time to look into fixing the problem. With this guide it turns out not only did I have EPP on again, which I thought I originally disabled, but I was skipping pixels due to a non 1:1 input. Now my gameplay feels a lot more crisp and I am not skipping pixels :D
On April 05 2013 10:28 IMHope wrote: I've read that the Zowie never fixed the issue on the Mico about the tracking bug. To does of you who use this mouse is it noticeable and knowing that they have yet to fix it is the mouse still worth getting? Ordered a g100s but still wondering if I should get the mico.
I've had it for a couple of months and haven't noticed any problems with tracking. If you like small mice, it's great!
On April 06 2013 23:52 aidosae wrote: I have a Logitech G9x playing at 800DPI, 6/11 in Windows and disabled the mouse sensitivity in sc2.
Sounds good. You didn’t post your screen resolution, though, but I assume it’s Full HD (1920×1080). Note that the Logitech G9x has sensor inherent issues, as described here by Cyro.
On April 07 2013 00:39 Grumbels wrote: I suppose if you have the time it would be nice to not only see ideas on mouse use but also support for those ideas with either scientific research or good sourcing (tables and facts etc). Your first post did have this, but I think it's more difficult for some other topics, such as the effects of sensitivity on hand injuries, possible benefits of playing mouse games to improve your mouse handling for starcraft, the ability to research your actual mouse movements in starcraft.
I wonder if there are ways to measure one's mouse skill objectively (not just the score in some random mouse game) and whether it's possible to determine the quickest way to improve one's skill in this and the specific effect of such skills on one's performance.
I have my own thoughts on this, but it's just some random ideas.
You’re touching very interesting topics. I’d be very interested in your thoughts.
On April 07 2013 00:55 Cyro wrote: There's a program called IOgraph or IOgraphica or something that tracks mouse movement - Pretty much everybody who uses excessive DPI in starcraft 2, or really, almost anyone at all - there's a lot, a LOT of mouse movement hitting the edges of the screen or dragging around the edges - and a lot less defined movements ... If you play horribly inefficiently, you will need a lot more DPI than otherwise, and more DPI just naturally translates into lower accuracy, which is why i really suggest for almost anyone to lower DPI, often quite vastly
I agree. Eventual health benefits can be nice, of course. But even if there were no health benefits at all most players could improve their accuracy by decreasing their sensitivity. Making the switch to low sensitivity however can be quite hard if a player has developed lots of bad habits like excessive mouse scrolling …
On April 07 2013 01:50 Sankanyo wrote: I have a 1366x768 resolution screen. Does the 6/11 and 51% rule still apply on this kind of screen? Also, since 51% is too sensitive for me, do I just adjust the sensitivity for my deathadder from the software?
P.S. I quickly skimmed through your article and I apologize in advance if it was stated at some point.
Resolution matters. Your mouse feels faster on your small resolution of 1366×768 than on 1920×1080. In five to ten years, when 4K displays (3840×2160; a lot of pixels) are getting common, everyone has to adjust their sensitivity. As you have a DeathAdder you can set it to 900 CPI or 450 CPI. 450 CPI could be to slow for you — but you could give it a try as your screen resolution is not that big. If 900 is too fast you can use Windows and SC 2 to adjust your sensitivity. You could reach ~787 (9/20 = 46 % = 0.875), 675 (8/20 = 41 % = 0.75) and ~662 CPI (7/20 = 36 % = 0.625). Again: I would stay away from Razer software. Use it to set your Hz and CPI once. Then experiment with the different sensitivities you can achieve with Windows and SC 2.
On April 07 2013 09:00 Glenn313 wrote: Thank you.
On April 07 2013 10:38 Daumen wrote: omg, thank you so much ;D
You’re welcome.
On April 07 2013 10:33 yokohama wrote: This was really helpful. I noticed before that my mouse was skipping pixels, but never really took the time to look into fixing the problem. With this guide it turns out not only did I have EPP on again, which I thought I originally disabled, but I was skipping pixels due to a non 1:1 input. Now my gameplay feels a lot more crisp and I am not skipping pixels :D
A fresh installed Windows has EPP enabled by default. (I just recently checked a freshly installed Windows 8. ;P) Glad I could help.
On April 07 2013 00:39 Grumbels wrote: I suppose if you have the time it would be nice to not only see ideas on mouse use but also support for those ideas with either scientific research or good sourcing (tables and facts etc). Your first post did have this, but I think it's more difficult for some other topics, such as the effects of sensitivity on hand injuries, possible benefits of playing mouse games to improve your mouse handling for starcraft, the ability to research your actual mouse movements in starcraft.
I wonder if there are ways to measure one's mouse skill objectively (not just the score in some random mouse game) and whether it's possible to determine the quickest way to improve one's skill in this and the specific effect of such skills on one's performance.
I have my own thoughts on this, but it's just some random ideas.
You’re touching very interesting topics. I’d be very interested in your thoughts.
Another approach could be to interview a (set of) professional players.
I once had the idea that at least with mouse games it's easy to keep track of your score (or your total score if you have a few different games) and it could be encouraged for progamers to play those games for a few minutes before starting a session. I imagine over time the scores would increase, but the question would be whether it was due to players becoming more familiar with the game (or the type of game) or whether it would be because their core mouse handling skills improved, and whether that would have to do with their playing the mouse game daily or maybe it was just a side effect of playing sc2 (or some weighted combination of both). (or whether there is even such a thing as mouse skills, since the reason some players are very fast is for a substantial part due to them knowing what to do next at any given point) And I figured that you could even introduce mouse games into starcraft. For instance, what if there are certain movement patterns you could try at the start of the game? (one thing I do is to reset my rally points while workers are building to go through all consecutive mineral patches) etc.etc. there is a lot of things one could if not research then at least mention I suppose. (sorry if this is rambling...)
And what if one would have the mouse records for like a group of professional players, maybe there is certain useful statistical analysis that can be done that would tell you that the faster, more precise, more successful players use certain patterns that could be mimicked by other players. (or maybe those patterns are just a side effect of them being better players, so it would be useless to emulate in that case)
On April 07 2013 04:15 dicedicerevolution wrote: …
I’ll get back to you shortly, I have to test some things first.
On April 08 2013 09:37 xgtx wrote: do you recommend markc mousefix for evo ec2 on windows 7 ?
Ragardless of your mouse, CPI, Hz, screen resolution or Windows version: you don’t need the The MarkC Windows Mouse Acceleration Fix for SC 2.
On April 08 2013 16:46 gravity wrote: Thanks for posting this. I'd forgotten about all this stuff, and now after adjusting my mouse it feels a lot smoother even just for normal usage.
The right settings can even make browsing more enjoyable.
On April 08 2013 18:12 Grumbels wrote: I once had the idea that at least with mouse games it's easy to keep track of your score … I imagine over time the scores would increase, but the question would be whether it was due to players becoming more familiar with the game (or the type of game) or whether it would be because their core mouse handling skills improved, and whether that would have to do with their playing the mouse game daily or maybe it was just a side effect of playing sc2 (or some weighted combination of both).
I think that by playing mouse speed games you get more efficient at playing them plus your basic mouse skills grow (and I bet the corresponding brain regions grow, also). How much different kind of mouse speed games can help you in SC 2 and what would be the optimal time one should invest in those games — those are difficult questions.
On April 08 2013 18:12 Grumbels wrote: (or whether there is even such a thing as mouse skills, since the reason some players are very fast is for a substantial part due to them knowing what to do next at any given point)
Knowing your next step by heart has definitely a great impact on your overall speed in SC 2. I just don’t think it’s the only factor.
On April 08 2013 18:12 Grumbels wrote: And I figured that you could even introduce mouse games into starcraft. For instance, what if there are certain movement patterns you could try at the start of the game? (one thing I do is to reset my rally points while workers are building to go through all consecutive mineral patches) etc.etc.
Setting rally points is good. Or trying to select certain workers (top two, bottom three …). However: You can only really do that at the very beginning of a game …
On April 08 2013 18:12 Grumbels wrote: Another approach could be to interview a (set of) professional players. … And what if one would have the mouse records for like a group of professional players, maybe there is certain useful statistical analysis that can be done that would tell you that the faster, more precise, more successful players use certain patterns that could be mimicked by other players. (or maybe those patterns are just a side effect of them being better players, so it would be useless to emulate in that case)
I like both approaches. One relatively simple way would be to extensively film the actual mouse movements of pros on their mousepads and combine that with their screen action into one video.
I find Osu had very different demands on mouse grips or even sensitivities than SC2, it's great to practice on but not too much i think. 15 mins a day is fast track to godliness
Im starting to like claw, but it's very hard to name grips, there's like 3 "types" but a tiny tiny adjustment, or difference in hand size or something very small can completely change how it feels or handles (so i think it's pretty much impossible to describe a grip that is functionally the same as something you use), at first i was closer to my previous fingertip grip trying claw, with hand more over the top of mouse but pressed down a bit for base of palm making contact, but i did not have ideal control in some situations, and tension built up in the wrist at the kind of sensitivities neccesary, i fixed that by moving palm down (further back on mouse, and much closer to mousepad - almost dragging on it) and have pretty amazing results thusfar @720dpi 1920x1080, tension builds in forearm when it has to (minutes of high strain with no release in a crazy osu map), which is just infinitely better than the tension building in your wrist or one of your pivots and the accuracy is there allowing you to expand reach with a higher DPI (if you consider 720dpi higher..) where it would otherwise be limited because of the dynamics of a claw-style grip, compared to other grips, allowing for crazy shit like in that youtube video in spoiler
On April 07 2013 04:15 dicedicerevolution wrote: …
I’ll get back to you shortly, I have to test some things first.
Sounds good, hopefully others also got something out of our discussion.
Just an update: Originally I wanted to write the next article about how to find a good sensitivity. As a result of the interesting discussion with dicedicerevolution and Cyro I’m going to write it about mouse grips instead.
i had a good search through the thread and only saw artisan recommended by OP. they look pretty expensive here in australia, anyone got a good cheap recommendation for a low resistance pad/surface?
Thank you so much for this article, i actually lost it after i read it the first time but it has popped back to the top so i am happy that i could re read it and check my settings.
That said, i don't know if my mouse is a good one really, as i do not know of any pro players who use it.
I use the Roccat Savu, which i bought when i wanted a mouse that was reportedly durable, was decently large as i have quite big hands, and also supports homestory cup <3
I run at a res of 1920-1080, 6/11, 51% CPI 1600 since reading this article, and my mouse sensitivity feels really fast, but i don't know if that is just because i am not used to it.
You said in the article that the right sensitivity is the most important, but i am the kind of guy who will pick the best and "get used to it dammit" in the long term and not be sub optimal because it is better for me in the short term.
Is this okay? is the Savu a decent mouse for sc2? I have been practicing my mouse accuracy a lot recently, and i think it is really quite bad, partly because the recent change to 51% from a life time of 42%, but it doesn't seem to have gotten all that much better over time.
Also, i was watching nony's stream a few months ago and i noticed that he plays with a really really fast scroll speed in comparison to most people, where he just touches the edge of the screen a little and then jumps back to the middle. I started playing like this and it is really effective, so i recommend it to anyone unless there is a good reason why not.
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: Thank you so much for this article, i actually lost it after i read it the first time but it has popped back to the top so i am happy that i could re read it and check my settings.
That said, i don't know if my mouse is a good one really, as i do not know of any pro players who use it.
I use the Roccat Savu, which i bought when i wanted a mouse that was reportedly durable, was decently large as i have quite big hands, and also supports homestory cup <3
I run at a res of 1920-1080, 6/11, 51% CPI 1600 since reading this article, and my mouse sensitivity feels really fast, but i don't know if that is just because i am not used to it.
You said in the article that the right sensitivity is the most important, but i am the kind of guy who will pick the best and "get used to it dammit" in the long term and not be sub optimal because it is better for me in the short term.
Is this okay? is the Savu a decent mouse for sc2? I have been practicing my mouse accuracy a lot recently, and i think it is really quite bad, partly because the recent change to 51% from a life time of 42%, but it doesn't seem to have gotten all that much better over time.
Also, i was watching nony's stream a few months ago and i noticed that he plays with a really really fast scroll speed in comparison to most people, where he just touches the edge of the screen a little and then jumps back to the middle. I started playing like this and it is really effective, so i recommend it to anyone unless there is a good reason why not.
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: Thank you so much for this article, i actually lost it after i read it the first time but it has popped back to the top so i am happy that i could re read it and check my settings.
That said, i don't know if my mouse is a good one really, as i do not know of any pro players who use it.
I use the Roccat Savu, which i bought when i wanted a mouse that was reportedly durable, was decently large as i have quite big hands, and also supports homestory cup <3
I run at a res of 1920-1080, 6/11, 51% CPI 1600 since reading this article, and my mouse sensitivity feels really fast, but i don't know if that is just because i am not used to it.
You said in the article that the right sensitivity is the most important, but i am the kind of guy who will pick the best and "get used to it dammit" in the long term and not be sub optimal because it is better for me in the short term.
Is this okay? is the Savu a decent mouse for sc2? I have been practicing my mouse accuracy a lot recently, and i think it is really quite bad, partly because the recent change to 51% from a life time of 42%, but it doesn't seem to have gotten all that much better over time.
Also, i was watching nony's stream a few months ago and i noticed that he plays with a really really fast scroll speed in comparison to most people, where he just touches the edge of the screen a little and then jumps back to the middle. I started playing like this and it is really effective, so i recommend it to anyone unless there is a good reason why not.
how does 800 cpi feel? 1600 is very fast
Well definitely slow, but then i have been using it for a month quite high. The truth is a i don't know, because i don't know what is normal. It come back to the fact that i am a mid to high masters player and i feel like i should have good mouse accuracy but i have no way of know if i am doing well or not in that way.
How should i test it? Use it for a week or so? I would assume a fast sensitivity is good for sc2. I just don't know and want someone to tell me what is not sub optimal i guess
I have a steelseries sensei, razer goliathus mousepad, and a 1920x1080 resolution on both of my monitors.
My settings in windows are 6/11, and 51% in sc2... currently my mouse settings are 3200, I tried 1600 and box clicking in the beginning of the game felt really slow... so I changed it x.x;
On April 25 2013 00:31 dreamseller wrote: i had a good search through the thread and only saw artisan recommended by OP. they look pretty expensive here in australia, anyone got a good cheap recommendation for a low resistance pad/surface?
Sorry, I can’t help you there. I’m only interested in the best solutions, so I don’t know much about second best solutions. ;P
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: is the Savu a decent mouse for sc2?
From a technical standpoint the Savu is superb. It is part of my mouse collection and I must say I really like the tracking fidelity. What I don’t like about, however, is that it is quite huge and quite heavy. The Savu is primarily a Palm Grip mouse. If you have huge hands you might be able to use it with a Fingertip Grip. I’m holding the mouse right now and it limits my vertical movements because of the way the side of the mouse is designed. Additionally: The Savu feels really sluggish when you’re coming from a light weight mouse.
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: I run at a res of 1920-1080, 6/11, 51% CPI 1600 since reading this article, and my mouse sensitivity feels really fast, but i don't know if that is just because i am not used to it.
You said in the article that the right sensitivity is the most important, but i am the kind of guy who will pick the best and "get used to it dammit" in the long term and not be sub optimal because it is better for me in the short term.
Is this okay?
Why do you think that 1600 CPI (thanks for not writing DPI :D) is the best? The best settings, in my opinion, are below 1000 CPI. One of the reasons being, that at 800 CPI your Savu won’t produce Jitter when you use a Polling Rate of 1000 Hz. Also I think 1600 CPI is just too fast for SC 2, as you already felt yourself.
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: Also, i was watching nony's stream a few months ago and i noticed that he plays with a really really fast scroll speed in comparison to most people, where he just touches the edge of the screen a little and then jumps back to the middle. I started playing like this and it is really effective, so i recommend it to anyone unless there is a good reason why not.
I too think that scroll speed should be set on its maximum value. It just saves time. It can be difficult to get used to it, though. So instead of jumping from 20 % directly to 100 %, I’d advise to make smaller adjustments. Maybe 30 % for a few days and then 40 % and so on …
On April 25 2013 01:20 Surili wrote: How should i test it [800 CPI]? Use it for a week or so? I would assume a fast sensitivity is good for sc2. I just don't know and want someone to tell me what is not sub optimal i guess
Definitely give 800 CPI a shot. And that shot should last a few weeks, at least. 800 CPI might feel slow when coming from 1600 CPI, but there are many players who go even lower with their CPI. 700 and 600 for example are not crazy low. CPI values between 300-500 are what I would regard as low.
On April 25 2013 01:43 smOOthMayDie wrote: I have a steelseries sensei, razer goliathus mousepad, and a 1920x1080 resolution on both of my monitors.
My settings in windows are 6/11, and 51% in sc2... currently my mouse settings are 3200, I tried 1600 and box clicking in the beginning of the game felt really slow... so I changed it x.x;
Any advice?
3200 CPI just is too much, in my opinion. If you felt uncomfortable with 1600 CPI give 1800 CPI a try. But with a little more commitment: use it for at least a weak, and not one game. Note that even 1800 CPI is too high, in my opinion. So after you get used to 1800 CPI try using 1200 CPI — and so on.
On April 25 2013 00:31 dreamseller wrote: i had a good search through the thread and only saw artisan recommended by OP. they look pretty expensive here in australia, anyone got a good cheap recommendation for a low resistance pad/surface?
Sorry, I can’t help you there. I’m only interested in the best solutions, so I don’t know much about second best solutions. ;P
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: is the Savu a decent mouse for sc2?
From a technical standpoint the Savu is superb. It is part of my mouse collection and I must say I really like the tracking fidelity. What I don’t like about, however, is that it is quite huge and quite heavy. The Savu is primarily a Palm Grip mouse. If you have huge hands you might be able to use it with a Fingertip Grip. I’m holding the mouse right now and it limits my vertical movements because of the way the side of the mouse is designed. Additionally: The Savu feels really sluggish when you’re coming from a light weight mouse.
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: I run at a res of 1920-1080, 6/11, 51% CPI 1600 since reading this article, and my mouse sensitivity feels really fast, but i don't know if that is just because i am not used to it.
You said in the article that the right sensitivity is the most important, but i am the kind of guy who will pick the best and "get used to it dammit" in the long term and not be sub optimal because it is better for me in the short term.
Is this okay?
Why do you think that 1600 CPI (thanks for not writing DPI :D) is the best? The best settings, in my opinion, are below 1000 CPI. One of the reasons being, that at 800 CPI your Savu won’t produce Jitter when you use a Polling Rate of 1000 Hz. Also I think 1600 CPI is just too fast for SC 2, as you already felt yourself.
On April 25 2013 01:02 Surili wrote: Also, i was watching nony's stream a few months ago and i noticed that he plays with a really really fast scroll speed in comparison to most people, where he just touches the edge of the screen a little and then jumps back to the middle. I started playing like this and it is really effective, so i recommend it to anyone unless there is a good reason why not.
I too think that scroll speed should be set on its maximum value. It just saves time. It can be difficult to get used to it, though. So instead of jumping from 20 % directly to 100 %, I’d advise to make smaller adjustments. Maybe 30 % for a few days and then 40 % and so on …
On April 25 2013 01:20 Surili wrote: How should i test it [800 CPI]? Use it for a week or so? I would assume a fast sensitivity is good for sc2. I just don't know and want someone to tell me what is not sub optimal i guess
Definitely give 800 CPI a shot. And that shot should last a few weeks, at least. 800 CPI might feel slow when coming from 1600 CPI, but there are many players who go even lower with their CPI. 700 and 600 for example are not crazy low. CPI values between 300-500 are what I would regard as low.
Thanks for the advice, feeling good about this. So was it probably producing jitter when i had it at 1600 CPI?
I guess the reason i was worried so much is that the Savu is the first decent mouse i ever bought, i have been using really shitty £15 quid mice for gaming for the past decade almost, not considering that it might be seriously holding me back. I even played dota for 5 years at a decent level with a ball mouse.
As for how 800 CPI has been suiting me, i'll put it this way: I completely forgot i had changed it. It is just so much cleaner now, i have been really practicing fast clicking (one of my favourite games at the start is to as fast as possible click accurately on the extractors at opposite sides of my nexus without forming boxes at all, and this is going much better.
I don't think it is a problem of size for me at all either, because i have strong hands, from years and years of gaming, followed by being very proficient and prolific in massaging, doing lots of juggling/circus skills, and also rock climbing and bouldering.
In fact i'm pretty sure a light mouse would piss me off ^^
Basically, since switching to 800 CPI i think, but i'm not 100% that the game is slightly easier for me, clicking on individual units especially grouped fast moving pheonix, but i will post again after my exams and i've had more time to grind out games.
Hmm have a different opinion on the CPI thing. I play with a razer abyssus 3500CPI, Windows6/11 and SC2 51%. And it's perfectly fine in each way: speed, precision and feeling. It's because you hold the mouse kinda tight in your hand and just have to move your hand just a little bit. Most of the time it's more of a small push you give the mouse. I feel it's more precise than having a lower sensivity because your wrist and heel of hand are fix and can easily control the mice. When you play with lower CPI you have to use your whole hand and even the arm to control. This is why i feel it's much more difficult to control the mice precisely. For example ingame, you have to use your whole arm to stop the mouse movement and quick reactions make it difficult to control because of the long movement you have to do with your hand/arm. So you have to put a lot more effort into precise selections. This is why i also feel that playing with low CPI isn't as fast as playing with high CPI. At the end it's all about routine. Everyone can play any settings if he has the time to get used to.
On April 25 2013 00:31 dreamseller wrote: i had a good search through the thread and only saw artisan recommended by OP. they look pretty expensive here in australia, anyone got a good cheap recommendation for a low resistance pad/surface?
If price is your biggest concern, then the SS QcK should be sufficient. They're one of the most popular pads out there and are relatively cheap (you can find some under $10 USD), and definitely a step up from a free mouse pad. Just make sure you get the right size for your (smaller size pads of the same model are obviously cheaper). If you're looking to spend more than you can ask around for stuff like the Zowie- Q-TF, etc.
Note that the SS QcK is a cloth mouse pad. I'm not exactly sure on your budget so I can't really recommend much further.
On April 30 2013 18:42 Surili wrote: Thanks for the advice, feeling good about this. So was it probably producing jitter when i had it at 1600 CPI?
1600 CPI produces light amounts of Jitter. 800 CPI is definitely better. See the following picture, which shows a Savu on a Shiden:
On April 30 2013 18:42 Surili wrote: As for how 800 CPI has been suiting me, i'll put it this way: I completely forgot i had changed it. It is just so much cleaner now, i have been really practicing fast clicking (one of my favourite games at the start is to as fast as possible click accurately on the extractors at opposite sides of my nexus without forming boxes at all, and this is going much better. … Basically, since switching to 800 CPI i think, but i'm not 100% that the game is slightly easier for me, clicking on individual units especially grouped fast moving pheonix, but i will post again after my exams and i've had more time to grind out games.
Glad to hear that.
On April 30 2013 18:42 Surili wrote: I don't think it is a problem of size for me at all either, because i have strong hands, from years and years of gaming, followed by being very proficient and prolific in massaging, doing lots of juggling/circus skills, and also rock climbing and bouldering.
I’m not sure if more strength is strictly better for doing fine precision movements.
On April 30 2013 20:02 Kazar wrote: Hmm have a different opinion on the CPI thing. I play with a razer abyssus 3500CPI, Windows6/11 and SC2 51%. And it's perfectly fine in each way: speed, precision and feeling.
Try playing with 1600 CPI for a few weeks. I bet you will be faster and more precise afterwards. Try recording first person videos for both CPI values. Then compare.
On April 30 2013 20:02 Kazar wrote: It's because you hold the mouse kinda tight in your hand and just have to move your hand just a little bit. Most of the time it's more of a small push you give the mouse. I feel it's more precise than having a lower sensivity because your wrist and heel of hand are fix and can easily control the mice. When you play with lower CPI you have to use your whole hand and even the arm to control. This is why i feel it's much more difficult to control the mice precisely. For example ingame, you have to use your whole arm to stop the mouse movement and quick reactions make it difficult to control because of the long movement you have to do with your hand/arm. So you have to put a lot more effort into precise selections. This is why i also feel that playing with low CPI isn't as fast as playing with high CPI.
I agree that arm movements can be considered inferior for very precise movements. However: You don’t have to use your arm when you’re using CPI values of about 800. You can use your wrist and fingers instead.
On April 30 2013 20:02 Kazar wrote: At the end it's all about routine. Everyone can play any settings if he has the time to get used to.
That is a very dangerous statement. Playing with 12.000 CPI is just plain bad. You can play 12 hours a day for five years — it won’t make it better. There are settings which are inferior to others, no matter how much routine you develop.
Thank you for the blog post, quite the educational read =)
I also have the Razer Abyssus (gotta support my favourite players : D) and a Razer Goliathus mousepad (control, I guess) and it was a blast switching to this equipment from a MS IntelliOptical (or sort of) and a mousepad with a Garfield cartoon. Still, I also fell for the "the higher the better"-syndrom and used 1000Hz and 3500 CPI ( ; ) ) the whole time and I am quite used to it. Not to say that I am anywhere near accurate in SC2 ^^ I don't know whether this is because I simply don't practice enough (likely) or because I just use a way too high CPI. Now I switched it down to 1800, which is by your definition still pretty high (although it feels very slow for me right now). Sadly the Abyssus only has 450 CPI as a third option and that feels definitely too slow. Since downscaling the CPI software-wise reads somewhat negative in your blog I will just keep it at 1800 for now.
Regarding the 1000Hz, I tried the Paint-test on 1000Hz and 125Hz and to my eye it looked the same (same jittery ), so I just keep it at 1000Hz : )
Again, thank you for your insights and the numerous other insights in this thread! Really got me thinking about my settings =)
can someone explain to me what the refresh rate actually does? Aside from glitching everything out and making single clicks become double clicks on my kinzu, I can't tell the difference between the 125Hz and 1000Hz
How do people use CPIs above 800? there's so much pixel skipping when I set mine to 1600.
Actually I think the mouse might be broken, because it doesn't skip pixels on 1600, it just ignores movement until I move, say, 5 units, and then it jumps 5 pixels.
On April 30 2013 22:18 Chaplin wrote: Thank you for the blog post, quite the educational read =)
You’re welcome.
On April 30 2013 22:18 Chaplin wrote: Sadly the Abyssus only has 450 CPI as a third option and that feels definitely too slow. Since downscaling the CPI software-wise reads somewhat negative in your blog I will just keep it at 1800 for now.
Downscaling through software is suboptimal, but not as suboptimal as playing with a suboptimal sensitivity. I recommend 4/11 in Windows, which would bring you to a sensitivity which equals 900 CPI.
On April 30 2013 22:18 Chaplin wrote: Regarding the 1000Hz, I tried the Paint-test on 1000Hz and 125Hz and to my eye it looked the same (same jittery ), so I just keep it at 1000Hz : )
If you value a lower reaction time more than cursor fidelity (= the quality of your mouse cursor movements) go for 1000 Hz.
On April 30 2013 22:20 DW-Unrec wrote: can someone explain to me what the refresh rate actually does? Aside from glitching everything out and making single clicks become double clicks on my kinzu, I can't tell the difference between the 125Hz and 1000Hz
If single clicks become double clicks, I’d say your mouse is broken (the switch inside your mouse). If you know how to solder you could open your mouse, desolder the old switches and solder new switches. As both your pictures look the same, I assume you’re using a CPI of 800 or below, which means your mouse won’t show Jitter. Jitter becomes a problem above 800 CPI. The polling rate of your mouse determines how often Windows receives new data from your mouse. I cannot tell the polling rate you used by looking at your picture (exceptions being Jitter which hints at a high polling rate and lots of flat lines which could hint at a low polling rate).
If you’d like to understand polling rate more thoroughly, you could read the corresponding part in wo1fwoods Overview of Mouse Technology.
On April 30 2013 22:20 DW-Unrec wrote: How do people use CPIs above 800? there's so much pixel skipping when I set mine to 1600.
Actually I think the mouse might be broken, because it doesn't skip pixels on 1600, it just ignores movement until I move, say, 5 units, and then it jumps 5 pixels.
Your mouse skips pixels when set on 1600 CPI, because SteelSeries designed it so. If you like pixel skipping and acceleration on a hardware level, SteelSeries has you covered. At 1600 CPI your mouse should jump for two pixels at a time. Unless you use it with 10/11, in which case it would jump for 5 pixels at a time.
On April 30 2013 18:42 Surili wrote: As for how 800 CPI has been suiting me, i'll put it this way: I completely forgot i had changed it. It is just so much cleaner now, i have been really practicing fast clicking (one of my favourite games at the start is to as fast as possible click accurately on the extractors at opposite sides of my nexus without forming boxes at all, and this is going much better. … Basically, since switching to 800 CPI i think, but i'm not 100% that the game is slightly easier for me, clicking on individual units especially grouped fast moving pheonix, but i will post again after my exams and i've had more time to grind out games.
On April 30 2013 18:42 Surili wrote: I don't think it is a problem of size for me at all either, because i have strong hands, from years and years of gaming, followed by being very proficient and prolific in massaging, doing lots of juggling/circus skills, and also rock climbing and bouldering.
I’m not sure if more strength is strictly better for doing fine precision movements.
I didn't really mean strength, mostly control, climbing does require pure strength to some extent, but accuracy and control is just as important for bouldering, and it is more important for massage and juggling ^^ Not that i am saying i have any proof they actually have any effect on gaming, i just feel that they probably should.
When you draw those lines above, do you do them quickly or trying to do it accuracy? How do i test it? Is there a video of someone doing this kind of stuff?
On April 30 2013 22:18 Chaplin wrote: Sadly the Abyssus only has 450 CPI as a third option and that feels definitely too slow. Since downscaling the CPI software-wise reads somewhat negative in your blog I will just keep it at 1800 for now.
Downscaling through software is suboptimal, but not as suboptimal as playing with a suboptimal sensitivity. I recommend 4/11 in Windows, which would bring you to a sensitivity which equals 900 CPI.
Okay, I'll give it a try : ) In SC2 I still keep the 51%?
On April 30 2013 23:19 Surili wrote: When you draw those lines above, do you do them quickly or trying to do it accuracy? How do i test it? Is there a video of someone doing this kind of stuff?
A few cm/s suffice. It’s no rocket science.
On April 30 2013 23:55 Chaplin wrote: Okay, I'll give it a try : ) In SC2 I still keep the 51%?
(So much movement all of a sudden ^^)
The corresponding SC 2 value is 31 % (multiplication factor of 0.5). Enjoy the movement. :D
On April 01 2013 21:55 xgtx wrote: I have evo ec2 , 450 dpi and 1150 dpi, 450 is too slow and 1150 too fast on 6/11
what can I do?
Your mouse has a 3090 sensor (= a very good sensor) and both 1150 CPI and 450 CPI are free of flaws. That’s why I recommend to use 1150 CPI and use Windows and SC 2 to lower your sensitivity from there on. (If you’d choose 450 CPI you’d have to use values above 6/11 which would result in pixel skipping.)
With standard Windows values you can reach ~ 862 (5/11) and ~575 CPI (4/11).
With Glymbols tool you could further reach ~ 1006 CPI (9/20) or ~ 718 CPI (7/20).
Out of these values I’d choose the one which feels best. If you’re indifferent between two values, you should choose the one which drops counts in a harmonic way. In your case the only harmonic value is 4/11 (or 6/20, if you’re using Glymbols tool).
On May 04 2013 05:12 xgtx wrote: What is Glymbols tool ? I dont find it on google
With Glymbols tool you can use the hidden sensitivity values of Windows. Instead of only 11, you now have 20 values. These 20 values are the same 20 values SC 2 uses. Here is a direct download link.
On April 03 2013 23:49 tili wrote: Do you have any advice/an overview for mac users?
I did some research and wrote a short Mac guide for SC 2:
If you’re using a Mac OS X which predates Lion (Mac OS X 10.7) I recommend to upgrade it. The reason being, that OS X versions before Lion can have the socalled Jump Bug.
Besideds this Jump Bug OS X has two major problems: acceleration and lag. - Accleration: The acceleration problem could be solved by using Bumblebees acceleration fix. - Lag: As confirmed by an Apple Engineer (and John Carmack, who used a high FPS camera) OS X has an Input Lag of 32 ms. That is a lot. This lag is the reason that mice felt just so wrong on Macs. There is a solution: SmoothMouse. SmoothMouse removes the 32 ms Input Lag. Further it can disable acceleration. It’s like “killing two birds with one stone” (I like “zwei Fliegen mit einer Klappe” more, those poor birds). If you’d like to install SmoothMouse you have to remove all mouse related software: - Mouse drivers - 3rd party mouse drivers (for example: USB Overdrive, SteerMouse, SideTrack) - Mouse fixes (for example: Bumblebees acceleration fix, MouseFix, mouse acceleration preference panes) If you need a mouse driver in order to set your mouse to a certain CPI, I recommend to install this mouse driver on a Windows system, set your CPI/Hz, and then use your mouse on your Mac system.
SmoothMouse works with SC 2. According to the SmoothMouse project manager Dae, SmoothMouse can have problems with games in windowed mode or setups with two monitors. Be aware of that.
How to setup SmoothMouse: - Use Linear mode if you want to deactivate acceleration. - The Windows Slider has 11 notches, with 6/11 giving you 1:1 input. The SmoothMouse slider has 12 notches, with 4/12 giving you 1:1 input. - Dae recommends using 500 Hz instead of 1000 Hz. I contacted Dae as to why he gave that recommendation. Here is what he said: “I recommend against 1000 Hz polling rate because OS X may behave a little weird when trying to process that many of events from SmoothMouse. These are rather small and random problems. For example, when you click out of a text editor, it would sometimes suddenly start scrolling upwards. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it does not. I would like to emphasize that technically the 'weirdness' is not caused by SmoothMouse, but problems within OS X itself. We've already tuned SmoothMouse for best performance, and there is very little we can do about them. Nevertheless I don't think these problems often occur in games.”
Does that mean I messed something up somewhere? My DeathAdder settings look like this: http://i.imgur.com/QKDJU48.png (in case it is hard to see, I currently have polling rate at 500hz and my DPI is at 900) I'm dumb, I just realized it means which direction on each axis I'm moving lol
Still have this question: After a few weeks of use after following the instructions in the guide, idk, my accuracy just doesn't feel like it's where it needs to be, I misclick a lot =/
On May 17 2013 07:42 KrazyTrumpet wrote: in case it is hard to see, I currently have polling rate at 500hz and my DPI is at 900
Have you tried 1000 Hz?
On May 17 2013 07:42 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Still have this question: After a few weeks of use after following the instructions in the guide, idk, my accuracy just doesn't feel like it's where it needs to be, I misclick a lot =/
So you’re still not GM? ;P How long have you been playing with 900 CPI? Only through April 2013 or for a longer time? If you want to work on your precision and speed, I highly recommend reflex TE on missionred.com.
Note that you are heavily limited by the choice of your mouse: the DeathAdder is, well, it’s heavy. As good as its tracking is, according to Razers product page the 2013 edition weighs in at a whopping 105 g. As SC 2 is a game of rapid clicks all over the place, you have to change direction very often. And every time you change your direction you have to decelerate and accelerate your mouse. A heavy mouse is not suited for this style of movement. Additionally the DeathAdder is quite large. Maybe it interferes with your grip. Note that I’m currently writing on my grip article, but it’s not quite done yet. ;P
On a side note: If you have a EU Battle.net account it would be nice of you, if you posted in this Battle.net thread and let Blizzard know you find it confusing, that you have to avoid sensitivity values like 50 % and would like for that to change. “Blizzard please fix this.” should suffice.
On May 17 2013 19:53 blueslobster wrote: If you want to work on your precision and speed, I highly recommend reflex TE on missionred.com.
What is a good score on this game? I just played it for the first time and scored 239500, round 5, accuracy 88%. I guess i will improve with practice, but i was wondering for a benchmark.
On May 17 2013 19:53 blueslobster wrote: If you want to work on your precision and speed, I highly recommend reflex TE on missionred.com.
What is a good score on this game? I just played it for the first time and scored 239500, round 5, accuracy 88%. I guess i will improve with practice, but i was wondering for a benchmark.
Scores aren’t important. What matters is how far you get. Round 8 or 9 is good.
On May 17 2013 07:42 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Still have this question: After a few weeks of use after following the instructions in the guide, idk, my accuracy just doesn't feel like it's where it needs to be, I misclick a lot =/
So you’re still not GM? ;P How long have you been playing with 900 CPI? Only through April 2013 or for a longer time? If you want to work on your precision and speed, I highly recommend reflex TE on missionred.com.
Note that you are heavily limited by the choice of your mouse: the DeathAdder is, well, it’s heavy. As good as its tracking is, according to Razers product page the 2013 edition weighs in at a whopping 105 g. As SC 2 is a game of rapid clicks all over the place, you have to change direction very often. And every time you change your direction you have to decelerate and accelerate your mouse. A heavy mouse is not suited for this style of movement. Additionally the DeathAdder is quite large. Maybe it interferes with your grip. Note that I’m currently writing on my grip article, but it’s not quite done yet. ;P
On a side note: If you have a EU Battle.net account it would be nice of you, if you posted in this Battle.net thread and let Blizzard know you find it confusing, that you have to avoid sensitivity values like 50 % and would like for that to change. “Blizzard please fix this.” should suffice.
The DeathAdder is...heavy?! It's the lightest and most comfortable mouse I have ever owned. I use the "fingertip" grip as described here: http://www.razerzone.com/mouseguide/ergonomic/fingertipgrip Everything else feels uncomfortable and unnatural.
I'll try out that missionred thing, do it for what, 15 minutes every day?
I guess you're telling me that everything is set up properly, my hands/brain just suck ass still . Good to know, I can work with that, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing anything wrong.
You must have large hands if you’re able to fingertip grip the DeathAdder. Good for you.
On May 17 2013 20:51 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I'll try out that missionred thing, do it for what, 15 minutes every day?
That sounds about right.
On May 17 2013 20:51 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I guess you're telling me that everything is set up properly, my hands/brain just suck ass still . Good to know, I can work with that, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing anything wrong.
Maybe your level of precision and speed is very high and you only think you suck because you have very high standards. I don’t know without seeing you playing.