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On March 16 2013 00:00 Lauriel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 23:45 Dfgj wrote:On March 15 2013 23:41 Tachion wrote:On March 15 2013 23:35 Dfgj wrote:On March 15 2013 23:30 Qikz wrote:On March 15 2013 23:29 Mefano wrote:
I never understood why she wanted revenge Mengsk left her to die, betraying both Jim and Her. She didn't give a shit about that in bw, when she assisted in liberating Korhol before betraying Mengsk even harder in mission 5, then smashing what was left of his forces in 10. She also wasn't unhappy about being transformed into the Queen of Blades. At no point throughout this was she revenge-hungry, even mocking Mengsk through it. It had something to do with her turning human again. She got her conscious back? Being responsible for killing billions of people because of mensk betraying her probably didn't sit too well with her. Even though she became the queen of blades again, she kept part of her human persona, and the vengeance along with it. Consciences aren't magical things you simply take away and return, unless you turn your game into a space magic farce. Retconning a character's motivations over and over to make them sympathetic while at the same time murderous just cheapens that character, and dismisses the actual gravity of their actions. Nothing was retconned. Kerrigan pre-xel'naga artifact cleansing was NOT the same as post. The xel'naga artifact cleansed her of Amon's taint, which was corrupting her and her motivations. She didn't even remember what she did as the Queen of Blades, and had to be re-informed of what she was. When she allowed herself to become the queen of blades, she did so without being corrupted by Amon, and kept elements of her humanity. I swear this has been posted several times before. If you just hate that aspect of the story, you're free to do so, but nothing was retconned as far as her motivations.
The entire concept of zerg infestation, something that alters your DNA, being cleansable - and Amon at all, is a retcon, and an ugly one. The former bears little difference to resurrecting dead characters (which has also happened): it diminishes the importance of anything happening because nothing is permanent. The latter ruins character development and motivation by narrowing things down to 'lol they were just being controlled'.
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For me another proof that the story is very poor and of full of plot holes is the fact that so many people are writing to justify things that happened in WoL and HotS. These justifications are based on their own assumptions or in things that they read in other media (e.g. books). This kills the argument that they simplified the story for the casual player; this also shows that the storytelling is bad, otherwise, the fans wouldn't have to come up with theories to patch the story/lore.
That being said, I have nothing against those who enjoyed the story/campaign. To each his own I suppose.
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On March 16 2013 00:01 KanoCoke wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 15 2013 23:30 17Sphynx17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 22:51 KanoCoke wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 15 2013 22:04 17Sphynx17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Was HOTS really supposed to be a really deep storyline that some people expected more than what it is? Kerrigan was shown to be more "human/emphatic" here so it shows she has lost her full-on Zerg/monster persona. I think that at least counts for something. And the expression of that led to Jim helping here in the last mission. I don't think that is so wrong from a story standpoint.
Personally, I have a few questions though that I wish were actually addressed.
Is the leviathan really that gargantuan compared to a battlecruiser? That sense of scale just detracted from the overall concept I guess. If you go back to the HOTS opening cinematic, how big was the battle cruiser that crashed into the city? Then increase its volume exponentially by, I don't know, 8? It was just too extreme for me already. Too exaggerated.
Why was the ancient one (zerg) so freaking huge while the rest of the primal zerg dwarfed in comparison? Aren't the primal zerg supposed to have originated from the primordial spawning pool which was also the origin of the primal zerg? Who did the ancient one eat then to get so freaking huge? And why was the battle a reskinning of D3's Act 2 boss. I mean why did they see it fit to reuse some of the assets?
I liked the idea of the primal zerg though and that was actually a refreshing concept. I do wonder though if they could be an unlocked alternate race in a custom map maybe so that it adds a bit more variety to the custom games? They appear to have a different "focus" as they weren't re-engineered to be optimal anyway but simply adapt. So I am curious, but they don't seem to have a "hatchery/drone" only a spawning pool. Hehe!
Correct me if I am wrong, but basically, wasn't it just Zeratul that managed to point Kerrigan towards a way to restoring/improving her QoB state? If not for Zeratul, Kerrigan would have simply just massed up Zerg and attacked Korhal right?
I also didn't manage to completely follow how Jim ended up with the gun, I initially thought the gun flew into the cell when the doors were popped by Sarah, but it appears that wasn't the case.
Other things that were wierd in my opinion:
Some of the upgrades didn't make sense to me anymore. I mean, Skeleton King (Zombie) Ultralisk? Really? How is that an "evolutionary trait you are supposed to be able to copy/adapt to"? I feel like they are injecting too much Dota mechanics into some gameplay of the HOTS campaign which I personally didn't find appealing.
Why wasn't the impaler a choice of evolution of the Hydralisk for multiplayer? Is it really that imbalanced to use that as a mechanic? I mean the unit needs to burrow to attack and it isn't a splash attack so why wasn't it an option they chose from to incorporate to the zerg multiplayer units? Is it because spine crawlers can also move?
I was actually surpised the campaign didn't have the inject mechanic for larvae. I actually liked that. Personally, the inject mechanic made zerg too difficult for me. I was used to the SC and SC:BW mechanic of just waiting for larvae to spawn from multiple hatcheries that the inject larvae mechanic crippled me in unit production. I really would have preferred they try and see that as a multiplayer mechanic again, rather than inject. But that is just me.
It seems to be the case. A battlecruiser most definitely would be around the size of a city, as they're supposed to be flagships that can carry interceptor fighter ships, have numerous weapons to kill the Zerg with, and have docking bays for numerous ships to park in, as well as probably a total number of around 2000 staff just maintaining the damn thing. By comparison, the Leviathan is the flagship of the whole Zerg swarm, so the other Zerg fleet's ships are probably smaller in comparison. Like comparing the Hyperion to the average battlecruiser. The Leviathan basically shoots anything and everything into the surface including ultralisks, hatcheries, spawning pools and so on. It should be around that size or it wouldn't be able to do all that. As for the primal zerg, I think he was one of, if not the first to be born off the Primordial spawning pool. It would make sense that millenia of constantly eating, evolving and surviving all those years would make it the ultimate primal zerg being in that planet. The primal zerg do in fact have hives. Those hives are humongous monsters that throw crap at you while you're trying to kill their bases. Sort of like the night elf buildings. Yes, it's all pretty much Zeratul. He gave hints to Raynor but Raynor was too busy and angsty to actually listen to and act according to his advice. But it all worked out in the end eitherway thanks to Zeratul leading Kerrigan herself into the right path. Kerrigan had the gun. She took it from one of the guards she killed to get there. It's the same studio working on the same games. If similarities occur, you can't really blame them. The theme for the Zerg for the whole campaign was necessary evolution in order to overcome their adversaries. The ultras were up against nukes. They were also up against biochemical experimentation. They had to adapt and evolve in order to survive their current plight. As for whether it's a useful evolution or not, Abathur's got his opinions. The impaler is simply a unit version of the spine crawler that does massive damage against armored units, has extremely high range, and is burrowed. Don't all these factors scream "imbalanced" to you? The campaign had quite a few things missing like the one you just mentioned, and corruptors. Turning mutalisks into Broodlords was a pretty funny idea. + Show Spoiler +Well, I would have thought that maybe the Leviathan be around 3 to a max of 4 times the size of a battlecruiser but 8 is a bit overkill given at the rate of how the swarm can reproduce. Sense of scale was just too much I guess plus the fact that Kerrigan kept mentioning that they had other Leviathan's in the sector in the last mission of attacking Korhal. If that scale were true and the quantity of those behemoths was also true, my god, the Battlecruisers were practically shooting peashooters at a thick hide. There is no way they could have damaged a capital ship that size. A nuke would be equivalent to a tank shot I guess if we look at it via scaling.
As for the impaler, well, I would think there weakness would of course be detection and just marines as they are not armoured. I would want it to be explored like the warhound mechanic, and if it was proved to be "broken" then at least they can take it out. Just my opinion though.
As for the broodlord mechanic in the campaign, I always believed that it should have been the natural thing to evolve them from Mutalisks, kind of like how they worked with guardians/defilers. And maybe corrupters could evolve into vipers with attack. I always found it funny how the viper didn't have any attack, that was just weird a design. The infestor made a bit of sense because it had spells that could cause damage, the viper didn't.
One thing I wish would be a possibility they could explore for the zerg is a map based (secondary) evolution for zerg. This would mean the map would contain certain creatures. Of course, not all creatures will be present in one map. So it gives an "optional" upgrade for the zerg that they could choose to get for one of their units by killing that unit. It just makes it more "zerg-y" if that makes sense. That would be really hard to design though but would make map design take a new level I guess. Just a thought but I know it would be very difficult to do, especially with competition settings.
Well, you run into an average Leviathan at the end of the Wings campaign (that big ass Zerg ship that Horner warns you about), and you also get to control one late in the Heart of the Swarm campaign if you chose to use it (good tank unit, crap abilities). Those look like miniature versions of what the Leviathan is supposed to be scale-wise though, despite being at least 1.5-2 times bigger than your average Battlecruiser in-game. If you have overseers and swarm hosts guarded by hydras or corruptors in there, you'll basically have one of the best siege combos in the game in my opinion. And one that isn't expensive at all considering that those are mostly lair tech units. Would probably be a great mid-way transition towards the obvious broodlord infestor to ultra switch, but a bit too powerful as static defense and artillery support, especially when you're up against Terran or Protoss going for colossi. They can definitely work something out though. As it is, the Hydra seems pretty boring. I'm still sad that we only got to see those mech warriors in the early beta and the campaign. Terrible unit visual and idea overall, but I wanted to see it in action even with severe nerfs on HOTS. Well, in Broodwar I thought a wasp-looking flyer turning into a crab was pretty bogus, so I had a bit of a laugh when I saw those same wasps turn into stingrays. The viper should get an attack though (maybe something similar to the queen attack). If the oracle gets to have an ability to kill 15 workers or so in less than 20 seconds (or something to that effect), then they should at least give vipers some sort of ranged attack. Yeah those would work if it were Warcraft, but they don't really fit that much game-wise into Starcraft sadly.
Well, they can lessen the range of the impaler/damage a bit. Or make it a tier 2.5 unit. The swarm host still feels like a quirky mechanic to me since you already have the broodlords. I just want to have it though in multiplayer which is why my focus is on it I guess. hehe!
I would like that the Vikings have an upgrade once you get the armory and you can retrofit all your vikings to those things in the last mission, what were they again? Sky ....? Forgot the name. hehe! But those were sweet to me. I mean, the pheonix gets an attack upgrade, why not the viking right? The banshee isn't too relevant at the end though so the battlecruiser should at least get decent support at long term end games. =)
Oh and, I think in legacy of the void, I really do think we'll be getting hero units or 1 "ultra unit per race". The zerg will eventually get the leviathan capital ship, protoss already has the mothership, and the terran, I still don't know, the odin I guess.
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On March 15 2013 23:46 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 23:14 KanoCoke wrote:On March 15 2013 22:55 fabiano wrote:
It was bad. I know that everyone has their opinion, but there must be a limit of what is acceptable and what is not. Having a story like this one in HotS with previously rich plot coming from SC and SC:BW is inexcusable.
Seriously people, take off your rose-tinted-glasses and leave blind fanboyism behind. There's also people that don't take their rose-tinted-glasses off when it comes to Starcraft 1 and Broodwar. Like a previous poster said, players will always find the first game and expansion the best because of it being their first experience with the franchise, or because they were at the age where this whole thing was bright, shiny and new to them, as well as nostalgia. Now that the people actually grew older, have experienced a lot of things as they went about their life, and played a whole lot more games, they'll always find sequels disappointing or terrible. Especially when they have so much unrealistic expectations that arise from their line of thought being "This game I played as a kid was awesome and had everything I ever dreamed of in a game! The sequel HAS to be much better than this!". I am not of this kind, which is why I can appreciate the game for what it is, can rationalize bits and pieces of why the plot went there or why these characters are here, etc. and overall have fun with what I have. I played through the campaign of both Starcraft 1 (or Vanilla as most people call it) and Broodwar around 1999 and thought it was good even though I was a little young to understand the more 'concealed' parts of the story. I don't find it as the "ungodly awesome superior ultimate game" like a lot of the nostalgiabros are though. Around the time I was also playing games like Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Red Alert, Dune 2000, and so on, actually enjoying them thoroughly as well. Also, I am now a Firebat. Awesome. I played SC and SC:BW for the first time in 2009, both campaign and multiplayer, when I was 21 years old, and I'm still playing it today. I've never stopped playing the game, I enjoyed the campaign stories (vanilla was much better than BW though). There is no nostalgia, and people should stop using this excuse.
Just because that wasn't the case for you personally, it doesn't mean that wasn't the case for everyone else. Of course the reverse can be said too, but as you yourself pointed out, there's more people are pointing to this specific excuse due to the fact that it's actually quite common.
A lot of people have played the game from its release date, and there are also people that have played it at a more recent date, but still with a sizable gap between the time they played Starcraft 1 and Broodwar, and the actual release of Starcraft 2. You had a year between your playthrough of these games. Who's to say you didn't have a bit of nostalgic bias too, despite the gap being much closer?
I'm not saying that Wings and HOTS campaign are great games compared to the originals, but I'm not saying they're terrible either. They have their good sides and their bad sides. Sadly a lot of the people here like to ignore or conveniently forget the good sides and pile on the bad sides. Or even ask questions about things that can be easily explained with just a bit of thought and use that as an argument for saying how bad the games are.
Its these type of people that I can't help but try to educate because otherwise they'd keep on using those same questions and arguments as "proof" that the games are bad when in fact they weren't really that bad at all.
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Ok I just watched the dialogue for the opening mission of SC and the opening mission of WoL. They start very similar.
Dialogue from Raynor casts him as a good ol' country bumpkin that just wants to keep people safe, while Edmund Duke comes off as an arrogant prick.
WoL starts with Mengsk talking about the threat of Raynor and also portrays himself as the arrogant dictator we've come to know. Then Raynor looks at a picture of human Kerrigan which makes sense because that was his loss of innocence moment when she got left behind by Mengsk. But he ends his dialogue with "Bout time we kick this revolution into overdrive."
Now let's talk about the settings of the two missions. One is a colony in the vicinity of the Confederate outpost Backwater Station on Mar Sara. The WoL setting is a town called Backwater Station on Mar Sara...which is stupid for two reasons:
1. Why would colonists name their town Backwater Station? Nostalgia? It makes sense for arrogant Confederate bureaucrats to name a backwater station literally Backwater Station, but colonists naming it that themselves is stupid.
2. As far as I'm concerned when the Protoss come and glass a planet they burn off the atmosphere and make it uninhabitable, yet for some reason we're back at Mar Sara.
Now for what "happens" in the first mission. In SC you fight back some Zerg, burn an infested CC, and Raynor gets arrested. In SC2 you attack a Dominion logistics depot and cripple Mengsk's control over the worthless flying POS that is Mar Sara.
SC2's greatest failure in my opinion was its cowardice to do something new. Same characters, same planets all changed to fit their new storyline.
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On March 16 2013 00:24 17Sphynx17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 00:01 KanoCoke wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 15 2013 23:30 17Sphynx17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 22:51 KanoCoke wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 15 2013 22:04 17Sphynx17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Was HOTS really supposed to be a really deep storyline that some people expected more than what it is? Kerrigan was shown to be more "human/emphatic" here so it shows she has lost her full-on Zerg/monster persona. I think that at least counts for something. And the expression of that led to Jim helping here in the last mission. I don't think that is so wrong from a story standpoint.
Personally, I have a few questions though that I wish were actually addressed.
Is the leviathan really that gargantuan compared to a battlecruiser? That sense of scale just detracted from the overall concept I guess. If you go back to the HOTS opening cinematic, how big was the battle cruiser that crashed into the city? Then increase its volume exponentially by, I don't know, 8? It was just too extreme for me already. Too exaggerated.
Why was the ancient one (zerg) so freaking huge while the rest of the primal zerg dwarfed in comparison? Aren't the primal zerg supposed to have originated from the primordial spawning pool which was also the origin of the primal zerg? Who did the ancient one eat then to get so freaking huge? And why was the battle a reskinning of D3's Act 2 boss. I mean why did they see it fit to reuse some of the assets?
I liked the idea of the primal zerg though and that was actually a refreshing concept. I do wonder though if they could be an unlocked alternate race in a custom map maybe so that it adds a bit more variety to the custom games? They appear to have a different "focus" as they weren't re-engineered to be optimal anyway but simply adapt. So I am curious, but they don't seem to have a "hatchery/drone" only a spawning pool. Hehe!
Correct me if I am wrong, but basically, wasn't it just Zeratul that managed to point Kerrigan towards a way to restoring/improving her QoB state? If not for Zeratul, Kerrigan would have simply just massed up Zerg and attacked Korhal right?
I also didn't manage to completely follow how Jim ended up with the gun, I initially thought the gun flew into the cell when the doors were popped by Sarah, but it appears that wasn't the case.
Other things that were wierd in my opinion:
Some of the upgrades didn't make sense to me anymore. I mean, Skeleton King (Zombie) Ultralisk? Really? How is that an "evolutionary trait you are supposed to be able to copy/adapt to"? I feel like they are injecting too much Dota mechanics into some gameplay of the HOTS campaign which I personally didn't find appealing.
Why wasn't the impaler a choice of evolution of the Hydralisk for multiplayer? Is it really that imbalanced to use that as a mechanic? I mean the unit needs to burrow to attack and it isn't a splash attack so why wasn't it an option they chose from to incorporate to the zerg multiplayer units? Is it because spine crawlers can also move?
I was actually surpised the campaign didn't have the inject mechanic for larvae. I actually liked that. Personally, the inject mechanic made zerg too difficult for me. I was used to the SC and SC:BW mechanic of just waiting for larvae to spawn from multiple hatcheries that the inject larvae mechanic crippled me in unit production. I really would have preferred they try and see that as a multiplayer mechanic again, rather than inject. But that is just me.
It seems to be the case. A battlecruiser most definitely would be around the size of a city, as they're supposed to be flagships that can carry interceptor fighter ships, have numerous weapons to kill the Zerg with, and have docking bays for numerous ships to park in, as well as probably a total number of around 2000 staff just maintaining the damn thing. By comparison, the Leviathan is the flagship of the whole Zerg swarm, so the other Zerg fleet's ships are probably smaller in comparison. Like comparing the Hyperion to the average battlecruiser. The Leviathan basically shoots anything and everything into the surface including ultralisks, hatcheries, spawning pools and so on. It should be around that size or it wouldn't be able to do all that. As for the primal zerg, I think he was one of, if not the first to be born off the Primordial spawning pool. It would make sense that millenia of constantly eating, evolving and surviving all those years would make it the ultimate primal zerg being in that planet. The primal zerg do in fact have hives. Those hives are humongous monsters that throw crap at you while you're trying to kill their bases. Sort of like the night elf buildings. Yes, it's all pretty much Zeratul. He gave hints to Raynor but Raynor was too busy and angsty to actually listen to and act according to his advice. But it all worked out in the end eitherway thanks to Zeratul leading Kerrigan herself into the right path. Kerrigan had the gun. She took it from one of the guards she killed to get there. It's the same studio working on the same games. If similarities occur, you can't really blame them. The theme for the Zerg for the whole campaign was necessary evolution in order to overcome their adversaries. The ultras were up against nukes. They were also up against biochemical experimentation. They had to adapt and evolve in order to survive their current plight. As for whether it's a useful evolution or not, Abathur's got his opinions. The impaler is simply a unit version of the spine crawler that does massive damage against armored units, has extremely high range, and is burrowed. Don't all these factors scream "imbalanced" to you? The campaign had quite a few things missing like the one you just mentioned, and corruptors. Turning mutalisks into Broodlords was a pretty funny idea. + Show Spoiler +Well, I would have thought that maybe the Leviathan be around 3 to a max of 4 times the size of a battlecruiser but 8 is a bit overkill given at the rate of how the swarm can reproduce. Sense of scale was just too much I guess plus the fact that Kerrigan kept mentioning that they had other Leviathan's in the sector in the last mission of attacking Korhal. If that scale were true and the quantity of those behemoths was also true, my god, the Battlecruisers were practically shooting peashooters at a thick hide. There is no way they could have damaged a capital ship that size. A nuke would be equivalent to a tank shot I guess if we look at it via scaling.
As for the impaler, well, I would think there weakness would of course be detection and just marines as they are not armoured. I would want it to be explored like the warhound mechanic, and if it was proved to be "broken" then at least they can take it out. Just my opinion though.
As for the broodlord mechanic in the campaign, I always believed that it should have been the natural thing to evolve them from Mutalisks, kind of like how they worked with guardians/defilers. And maybe corrupters could evolve into vipers with attack. I always found it funny how the viper didn't have any attack, that was just weird a design. The infestor made a bit of sense because it had spells that could cause damage, the viper didn't.
One thing I wish would be a possibility they could explore for the zerg is a map based (secondary) evolution for zerg. This would mean the map would contain certain creatures. Of course, not all creatures will be present in one map. So it gives an "optional" upgrade for the zerg that they could choose to get for one of their units by killing that unit. It just makes it more "zerg-y" if that makes sense. That would be really hard to design though but would make map design take a new level I guess. Just a thought but I know it would be very difficult to do, especially with competition settings.
Well, you run into an average Leviathan at the end of the Wings campaign (that big ass Zerg ship that Horner warns you about), and you also get to control one late in the Heart of the Swarm campaign if you chose to use it (good tank unit, crap abilities). Those look like miniature versions of what the Leviathan is supposed to be scale-wise though, despite being at least 1.5-2 times bigger than your average Battlecruiser in-game. If you have overseers and swarm hosts guarded by hydras or corruptors in there, you'll basically have one of the best siege combos in the game in my opinion. And one that isn't expensive at all considering that those are mostly lair tech units. Would probably be a great mid-way transition towards the obvious broodlord infestor to ultra switch, but a bit too powerful as static defense and artillery support, especially when you're up against Terran or Protoss going for colossi. They can definitely work something out though. As it is, the Hydra seems pretty boring. I'm still sad that we only got to see those mech warriors in the early beta and the campaign. Terrible unit visual and idea overall, but I wanted to see it in action even with severe nerfs on HOTS. Well, in Broodwar I thought a wasp-looking flyer turning into a crab was pretty bogus, so I had a bit of a laugh when I saw those same wasps turn into stingrays. The viper should get an attack though (maybe something similar to the queen attack). If the oracle gets to have an ability to kill 15 workers or so in less than 20 seconds (or something to that effect), then they should at least give vipers some sort of ranged attack. Yeah those would work if it were Warcraft, but they don't really fit that much game-wise into Starcraft sadly. + Show Spoiler +Well, they can lessen the range of the impaler/damage a bit. Or make it a tier 2.5 unit. The swarm host still feels like a quirky mechanic to me since you already have the broodlords. I just want to have it though in multiplayer which is why my focus is on it I guess. hehe!
I would like that the Vikings have an upgrade once you get the armory and you can retrofit all your vikings to those things in the last mission, what were they again? Sky ....? Forgot the name. hehe! But those were sweet to me. I mean, the pheonix gets an attack upgrade, why not the viking right? The banshee isn't too relevant at the end though so the battlecruiser should at least get decent support at long term end games. =)
Oh and, I think in legacy of the void, I really do think we'll be getting hero units or 1 "ultra unit per race". The zerg will eventually get the leviathan capital ship, protoss already has the mothership, and the terran, I still don't know, the odin I guess.
Well, that certainly sounds doable. I'd rather have the lurker because of the fond memories I have of lurker drops into mineral lines, but having a unit that you can get through the hydra as a base is in itself, quite a good idea.
Was it the cluster missile that was broken as all hell? It was a homage to the valkyrie attack though, which wasn't considered as broken in Broodwar iirc. Good idea, but it would make the suicide ravens useless aside from detection in sky war TvT.
Well, if I were in my Terran bias mode, I'd say bring in the Merc Compound to multiplayer. lol
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I haven't purchased HoTS because I was less than impressed with how Blizzard handled the beta, and the story line for WoL was garbage, so I assumed the same would occur with HoTS. For someone like me, the post by Zoomacroom is useful because it confirms what I assumed, and keeps me from wasting my money on the game.
Thanks Zoomacroom.
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I think people are thinking to hard into the 'middle story' here. A middle story in a trilogy has it's own beginning and an end, but it also has to setup the last story for the 'big finish'.
Stukov being brought back isn't beyond fathoming, the SC1 game engine was limited so of course the ghost exploded. In game wise though he was just shot so him coming back isn't beyond possibility. Also it's likely a foreshadowing of the return of the UED for LoTV, who were pushed out by the dominion but hardly destroyed. So it would be necessary for them to return for there to be a Terran presence in LoTV as the Dominion has been crushed under Kerrigan's high heels.
Anyone thinking Kerrigan and Jim loving each other is a stretch didn't pay enough attention to the SC1 storyline. It was quite clear they did, and at the time raynor saw the queen of blades as stealing his woman. Once he found out there might be a way to save her, then his focus shifts from kill her to save her, which is plausible if a bit weak. When we find Jim at the beginning of the game it's quite clear though he's had time to think sitting in Joe Ray's bar pondering all this time.
Could some things have been told a bit more grandly, probably. Was the story so bad I wanted to throw the disk into a clay pigeon pile to be shot gunned, no not really. It was sufficient enough to be somewhat interesting and push the story along to set it up for the conclusion in LoTV.
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On March 16 2013 00:15 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 00:02 Lauriel wrote:On March 15 2013 23:59 Sbrubbles wrote:
According to WoL, wasn't Kerrigan created by the Overmind in order for it to have a warrior devoid of Amon's influence, or something of the like? How was she purged of Amon's taint if the Overmind made her without the taint (as in, that was the whole point of making her in the first place). It might be arguable that the Overmind was unable to create something without Amon's taint, but if so why did it even try?
Also, if Amon's taint is what it takes for Kerrigan to go back to her BW badass self, lets pray that she gets retainted in LotV.
The Overmind didn't make her without the taint. He made a being that was capable of being cleansed of it, as she was not fully zerg and not created by Amon. His relief (as described in WoL) over being killed was due to the fact that with her in control of the swarm, if she were to be cleaned, the swarm would be free. His plan was one step closer to being carried out. This doesn't make such sense (even without bringing BW into the picture  ). The Overmind planning/foreseeing for Kerrigan to be cleansed through the Zelnaga artifact isn't logical if we assume (by Narud's speech) that Kerrigan's energy was precisely used to raise Amon. How could the Overmind be okay with a plan (through Kerrigan, outside of Amon's influence) that ends up raising Amon? In other words, if the Overmind created Kerrigan in order for her to be cleansed and thus lead a free swarm, it also means that the Overmind accepted that her energy, through cleansing, would also raise Amon. This doesn't sit well with me.
I think you misunderstood me. The Overmind wasn't prophetic in the sense that it knew Kerrigan would be cleansed. Rather, he realized that it was the only chance the Zerg had to ever be free. He took a long shot, and it paid off.
In other words, he realized that he had no chance to ever be freed, and that in order for the Zerg to ever be free, a leader would have to take power who could, potentially, be rid of Amon's influence. He never knew how (or if) it would happen, but he planted a seed and hoped that one day it would work, and it did.
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myeah the story sucked, but to be honest I didnt expect much from the story or any consistency in it whatsoever from the start. I enjoyed the missions, and just ignored the rediculousness of the story. (when reading the OP I noticed I thought the exact same things while playing the campaign : tal darim sudden bad guys wtf? kerri + raynor all horny over eachother ? stukov? and it goes on).
To the people who liked it : I enjoyed the missions aswell, and I enjoyed the idea of zerg rampaging, but that doesnt mean you need to agree with everything in the story : it had some pretty big flaws and wether you liked it as a whole or not there is no discussion possible that those flaws simply should not have been made, especially in such a big title of a game. Its obviously a mistake on the makers' part, and you shouldnt be trying to defend it or minimalise it.
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There are two problems with WOL and HOTS. One is that they got something inbetween a full story and each episode from the old SC. In the old SC, if each campaign was its own game, we would likely criticize them as well. I mean come on, they were all average at best. Take for instance the first arc, your the vanilla government worker with a friend. Aliens attack but government is woefully inept. join rebels as a result. rebels make increasingly amoral decisions. later you leave rebels with friend due to rebels turning into what they swore to fight. Pretty textbook if you ask me.
WOL and HOTS swarm are average as well in my book, but the problem is that the games are separate. If all three stories, including LOTV were put on one game and released at the same time, the story would probably receive less criticism. But they released them separately and promised a full story for each one. instead of developing a 30 or so megastory with a beginning, middle, and end, they try to make it a 30 level episode like in the old games. they are trying to make one episode at a time and that doesn't make for a single game story. in addition, within that episode they add episodes (episodception) which are woefully underdeveloped and short. The problem in short is instead of making a story, they are making episodes, and putting underdeveloped and short episodes into that episode.
The second problem is that they choose to explain the story through many sources. Books expand on almost everything and explain what was happening in those in between years. Obscure interviews attempt to clarify plot holes in the story. Even old unreleased games have a part in it, terrazine was set to appear in SC ghost but was never used. I guess they wanted players to be like 'wow! they are bringing back that thing that was never used!' when in fact few ever remember it. They need to put the story in the game and explain it to those that don't know about the expanded universe.
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Stukov being brought back isn't beyond fathoming, the SC1 game engine was limited so of course the ghost exploded. In game wise though he was just shot so him coming back isn't beyond possibility.
Then who`s body was set out into space in a coffin during the ending cinematic for the Terran campaign in brood war?
Also it's likely a foreshadowing of the return of the UED for LoTV, who were pushed out by the dominion but hardly destroyed.
The UED was forced out after Kerrigan beat them in the final BW mission ``Omega``, it also mentions that not a single vessel returned to Earth in the epilogue. So yes they were totally destroyed and it does not seem likely they will return.
So it would be necessary for them to return for there to be a Terran presence in LoTV as the Dominion has been crushed under Kerrigan's high heels.
The dominion is gone, mengsk is dead but we still have Valerian who could rally the terrans and rebuild to have some presence in LOTV
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On March 16 2013 00:18 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 00:00 Lauriel wrote:On March 15 2013 23:45 Dfgj wrote:On March 15 2013 23:41 Tachion wrote:On March 15 2013 23:35 Dfgj wrote:On March 15 2013 23:30 Qikz wrote:On March 15 2013 23:29 Mefano wrote:
I never understood why she wanted revenge Mengsk left her to die, betraying both Jim and Her. She didn't give a shit about that in bw, when she assisted in liberating Korhol before betraying Mengsk even harder in mission 5, then smashing what was left of his forces in 10. She also wasn't unhappy about being transformed into the Queen of Blades. At no point throughout this was she revenge-hungry, even mocking Mengsk through it. It had something to do with her turning human again. She got her conscious back? Being responsible for killing billions of people because of mensk betraying her probably didn't sit too well with her. Even though she became the queen of blades again, she kept part of her human persona, and the vengeance along with it. Consciences aren't magical things you simply take away and return, unless you turn your game into a space magic farce. Retconning a character's motivations over and over to make them sympathetic while at the same time murderous just cheapens that character, and dismisses the actual gravity of their actions. Nothing was retconned. Kerrigan pre-xel'naga artifact cleansing was NOT the same as post. The xel'naga artifact cleansed her of Amon's taint, which was corrupting her and her motivations. She didn't even remember what she did as the Queen of Blades, and had to be re-informed of what she was. When she allowed herself to become the queen of blades, she did so without being corrupted by Amon, and kept elements of her humanity. I swear this has been posted several times before. If you just hate that aspect of the story, you're free to do so, but nothing was retconned as far as her motivations. The entire concept of zerg infestation, something that alters your DNA, being cleansable - and Amon at all, is a retcon, and an ugly one. The former bears little difference to resurrecting dead characters (which has also happened): it diminishes the importance of anything happening because nothing is permanent. The latter ruins character development and motivation by narrowing things down to 'lol they were just being controlled'.
People are close to being able to alter DNA now, with wimpy 2013 earth technology. Why is it such a stretch that in the Starcraft universe, in a world where giant ships dart in and about space like hummingbirds, monstrous weapons are the norm, people have suits of armor bolted into their body, and where people have psyonic properties, that it could be possible to cleanse someone of a zerg infestation? Because you just don't think it should be? That's not a reason. And something did happen with the cleansing - Kerrigan regained her human mind and emotions, meaning she can actually act upon her own free will, rather than her motivations being influenced by Amon.
As for Amon, did Duran not hint in BW that he worked for someone greater? Did he not already start experimenting on a Protoss/Zerg Hybrid (DNA changing, anyone?). They've been setting up for this for a while, methinks. Just because they introduced the villian they only hinted at in BW doesn't mean they retconned anything.
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On March 16 2013 00:58 Nerski wrote:
Also it's likely a foreshadowing of the return of the UED for LoTV, who were pushed out by the dominion but hardly destroyed. So it would be necessary for them to return for there to be a Terran presence in LoTV as the Dominion has been crushed under Kerrigan's high heels.
From the Brood War Epilogue: "The remainder of the UED Fleet was overtaken by Kerrigan's forces and eradicated. No UED vessel ever made it back to Earth to report what had transpired."
So they could bring back the UED, but they'd just be copying Brood War all over again. It's more plausible to resurrect the Dominion though because they already have the forgettable Valerian in place. The Dominion's already been destroyed four times so I don't think bringing them back is a big deal.
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well i just finished the campaign and Im really disappointed in blizzard for Hots- it is just made more noob friendly and takes so much away from the story line which was built in sc1 - Tassadar , Artanis, fenix - nothing here. No epic lines nothing memorable  Its really sad and so much RPG just learn new units and a move to win. sad.
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Wol had decent story and i really enjoyed playing the campaign. In Hots i enjoyed the gameplay but story was just bad.
The worst thing for me was the whole reinfested Kerrigan. I mean the goal you worked for the whol Wol campaign is just gone. And then the cooperation of Valerian and Raynor in the attack of Korhal. I mean really. You help the zerg attack a human world because they promise to land outside the city. You can't find another way to get rid of Mengsk than to let the zerg attack the planet. Makes sense.
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Almost all of the concerns levied in this thread are either flat-out false or something that is a persistent issue throughout the series.
In the case of WoL, there were legitimate reasons to be very upset with the story, but I feel HotS has a far stronger story. In terms of storytelling, I would rank them like SC1 > BW/HotS >> WoL. On a scale of 1-10 for storytelling within the RTS genre, SC1 is like a 9.5, BW and HotS are like a 9.0, and WoL is like a 7.5 (and that is a bit too generous even).
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On March 16 2013 01:23 Uracil wrote:
Wol had decent story and i really enjoyed playing the campaign. In Hots i enjoyed the gameplay but story was just bad.
The worst thing for me was the whole reinfested Kerrigan. I mean the goal you worked for the whol Wol campaign is just gone. And then the cooperation of Valerian and Raynor in the attack of Korhal. I mean really. You help the zerg attack a human world because they promise to land outside the city. You can't find another way to get rid of Mengsk than to let the zerg attack the planet. Makes sense.
ye they should just make sneaking missions and just skip the all strategy game right ?
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What I am afraid of is the pro toss getting the shaft in in the third game. I mean there is going to be the final show down with the boss right, so how can they make it a protoss campaign AND have the major boss fight and lead up without making one or the other very short? Especially if the next game is about the same length as hots. They can't do both :/
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On March 16 2013 01:23 Uracil wrote:
Wol had decent story and i really enjoyed playing the campaign. In Hots i enjoyed the gameplay but story was just bad.
The worst thing for me was the whole reinfested Kerrigan. I mean the goal you worked for the whol Wol campaign is just gone. And then the cooperation of Valerian and Raynor in the attack of Korhal. I mean really. You help the zerg attack a human world because they promise to land outside the city. You can't find another way to get rid of Mengsk than to let the zerg attack the planet. Makes sense.
To be fair, I don't think a single character in the franchise has ever displayed good decision making.
Mengsk decides to leave Kerrigan behind on a Zerg world for no good reason (yes he had a reason, but it was bad). Zeratul and Artanis decide to work with Kerrigan in BW (an awful idea) and then AFTER SHE BETRAYS THEM, they go ahead with her plan anyway! Hell, Kerrigan betrays the Terran and Protoss on three or four separate occasions in BW, and each time they trust her again despite this.
You just have to accept that the characters in the StarCraft universe have all had common sense surgically removed from their brains or something.
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EPT
