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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. |
On February 25 2013 01:56 Buff345 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 18:42 blade55555 wrote:On February 24 2013 18:20 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:On February 24 2013 17:33 aksfjh wrote:On February 24 2013 15:48 BoggieMan wrote:On February 23 2013 09:54 Zelniq wrote:On February 23 2013 09:53 Everlong wrote:
Also, Are they only watching TvZ for the first 10 minuts games?
... Yeah what about maxed terran mech or air armies, or sky toss? :/ If protoss and terran lategame gets too strong, it will kinda turn zerg completely upside down, considering how they used to play in wol with turtle with infestors into unstopable hive army. But i guess having a bad lategame isen't going to make your race underpowered. Terrans never really used lategame oriented play in wol (even though terran air could be really good) and still had around 50% win (sometimes less, sometimes more) most of the time in tvp and tvz. They had a 50% winrate until the queen buff. When forced to go to the late game almost every game, GSL winrates dropped to the low 40s and mid 30s. There's a lot of Zerg talk that sounds like "ZOMG Terran air is SOOOOOO strong! Just max 200 on ravens, BCs, and vikings!" But it doesn't seem to work all too well at the pro level, otherwise we would see Terran do it to overcome their now abysmal chances in the matchup. In contrast, even when ZvT didn't revolve around infestors, there wasn't a real need to adapt to the infestor playstyle. GSL winrates for Zerg were still pretty solid, with the occasional dip here and there. I just don't buy that Terrans are somehow ignoring this supposed blatant lategame army strength while having extremely dismal numbers. Doesn't add up. It's almost impossible to transition. Look at Bomber vs Sniper r32 this gsl (entombed). Bomber wins, but it's by a hair where he plays massive macro and barely holds Sniper's ultralisk agression with a close to maxed army several times. A switch to unupgraded bc's would get him killed. Heck, many terrans struggle with having enough vikings. Yeah it's not as hard in hots though. Well to a point. Ravens are sick good now so it's not hard to tech to ravens and get quiet a few, but yeah teching to the ultimate raven/bc/viking is very hard to get to thank god. If it was easy oh lord T_T I know youre pretty high rated in hots, so Im kinda curious about how terrans hold ultras while getting ravens out. Like how are the ravens used in order to help against the ultras? I play quite a bit of hots, but Ive been avoiding ravens except in air vs air situations. Not being an ass, actually want to know.
From thorzain stream, I have seen him doing it in many ways:
He almost only plays mech now.
Turtle in 3 bases, with tanks, thors and sometimes with widow mines.
Starts a starport earlier than wol mech style for a raven and some vikings. (mostly to deal with the vipers blinding clouds)
Running hellions in to keep his army on their side and denying the tech and push.
If opponent went for roach hydra, they usually go for roach hydra viper, he adds more ravens and BCs.
If opponent use more ling heavy style like ling muta in lair tech, and he somehow scouted a ultra tech, he would add some banshees and more widow mines before adding too many BCs.
I am no where near GM level though but I hope I got these details down right.
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On February 25 2013 02:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 01:56 Buff345 wrote:On February 24 2013 18:42 blade55555 wrote:On February 24 2013 18:20 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:On February 24 2013 17:33 aksfjh wrote:On February 24 2013 15:48 BoggieMan wrote:On February 23 2013 09:54 Zelniq wrote:On February 23 2013 09:53 Everlong wrote:
Also, Are they only watching TvZ for the first 10 minuts games?
... Yeah what about maxed terran mech or air armies, or sky toss? :/ If protoss and terran lategame gets too strong, it will kinda turn zerg completely upside down, considering how they used to play in wol with turtle with infestors into unstopable hive army. But i guess having a bad lategame isen't going to make your race underpowered. Terrans never really used lategame oriented play in wol (even though terran air could be really good) and still had around 50% win (sometimes less, sometimes more) most of the time in tvp and tvz. They had a 50% winrate until the queen buff. When forced to go to the late game almost every game, GSL winrates dropped to the low 40s and mid 30s. There's a lot of Zerg talk that sounds like "ZOMG Terran air is SOOOOOO strong! Just max 200 on ravens, BCs, and vikings!" But it doesn't seem to work all too well at the pro level, otherwise we would see Terran do it to overcome their now abysmal chances in the matchup. In contrast, even when ZvT didn't revolve around infestors, there wasn't a real need to adapt to the infestor playstyle. GSL winrates for Zerg were still pretty solid, with the occasional dip here and there. I just don't buy that Terrans are somehow ignoring this supposed blatant lategame army strength while having extremely dismal numbers. Doesn't add up. It's almost impossible to transition. Look at Bomber vs Sniper r32 this gsl (entombed). Bomber wins, but it's by a hair where he plays massive macro and barely holds Sniper's ultralisk agression with a close to maxed army several times. A switch to unupgraded bc's would get him killed. Heck, many terrans struggle with having enough vikings. Yeah it's not as hard in hots though. Well to a point. Ravens are sick good now so it's not hard to tech to ravens and get quiet a few, but yeah teching to the ultimate raven/bc/viking is very hard to get to thank god. If it was easy oh lord T_T I know youre pretty high rated in hots, so Im kinda curious about how terrans hold ultras while getting ravens out. Like how are the ravens used in order to help against the ultras? I play quite a bit of hots, but Ive been avoiding ravens except in air vs air situations. Not being an ass, actually want to know. From thorzain stream, I have seen him doing it in many ways: He almost only plays mech now. Turtle in 3 bases, with tanks, thors and sometimes with widow mines. Starts a starport earlier than wol mech style for a raven and some vikings. (mostly to deal with the vipers blinding clouds) Running hellions in to keep his army on their side and denying the tech and push. If opponent went for roach hydra, they usually go for roach hydra viper, he adds more ravens and BCs. If opponent use more ling heavy style like ling muta in lair tech, and he somehow scouted a ultra tech, he would add some banshees and more widow mines before adding too many BCs. I am no where near GM level though but I hope I got these details down right.
Makes sense. If you have the starports with tech labs, just get banshees if its ultra and ravens if its hydra or broods. HSM is pretty good against hydras too i remember seeing.
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On February 25 2013 02:12 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 08:58 NKexquisite wrote:
Ohhh... Here come the Blizzard "stack nerfs"... Just like they "stack nerfed" the Reaper into oblivion in WoL...
First you nerf the cargo space
Then you nerf w/ an upgrade
Next you increase the build time of the factory
They need to be sure to not "stack nerf" it... It's even funnier when you compare it to the hydra from the WoL beta it was nerfed twice extremely early on in the beta (feb / march 2010 I believe) and had it's HP nerfed from 90 to 80 and attack speed from .75 to .86 (I think, not sure of exact numbers). Then comes HotS and blizzard is like, "why isn't anyone using hydras? We should introduce a speed upgrade that gives them 25% more speed off creep, that'll work!"
They nerfed it because no one was using roach. The movement buff was to FINALLY make hydra/roach a viable composition.
In WoL, the composition was only viable on creep highways as retreat was not an option compared to the utility of roach/infestor.
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On February 25 2013 01:25 wammyz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 18:20 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:On February 24 2013 17:33 aksfjh wrote:On February 24 2013 15:48 BoggieMan wrote:On February 23 2013 09:54 Zelniq wrote:On February 23 2013 09:53 Everlong wrote:
Also, Are they only watching TvZ for the first 10 minuts games?
... Yeah what about maxed terran mech or air armies, or sky toss? :/ If protoss and terran lategame gets too strong, it will kinda turn zerg completely upside down, considering how they used to play in wol with turtle with infestors into unstopable hive army. But i guess having a bad lategame isen't going to make your race underpowered. Terrans never really used lategame oriented play in wol (even though terran air could be really good) and still had around 50% win (sometimes less, sometimes more) most of the time in tvp and tvz. They had a 50% winrate until the queen buff. When forced to go to the late game almost every game, GSL winrates dropped to the low 40s and mid 30s. There's a lot of Zerg talk that sounds like "ZOMG Terran air is SOOOOOO strong! Just max 200 on ravens, BCs, and vikings!" But it doesn't seem to work all too well at the pro level, otherwise we would see Terran do it to overcome their now abysmal chances in the matchup. In contrast, even when ZvT didn't revolve around infestors, there wasn't a real need to adapt to the infestor playstyle. GSL winrates for Zerg were still pretty solid, with the occasional dip here and there. I just don't buy that Terrans are somehow ignoring this supposed blatant lategame army strength while having extremely dismal numbers. Doesn't add up. It's almost impossible to transition. Look at Bomber vs Sniper r32 this gsl (entombed). Bomber wins, but it's by a hair where he plays massive macro and barely holds Sniper's ultralisk agression with a close to maxed army several times. A switch to unupgraded bc's would get him killed. Heck, many terrans struggle with having enough vikings. When it comes to transitioning to air as Terran it is incredibly map dependant. Obviously Metropolis is the ultimate sky Terran map because you stick two planetaries at the choke and Terran is impenetrable for 20 minutes. You simply can't do it on most maps though.
Plus with Metro, you have 5 bases secured once you have the 2 planetariums down. The 2 high grounds also make it so it is easier to not get all your Vikings/ravens fungaled.
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0.75 -> 0.86 attack speed is a buff, not nerf.
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On February 25 2013 03:42 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
0.75 -> 0.86 attack speed is a buff, not nerf.
How is that a buff? They used to attack every .75 seconds, now they attack every .86 seconds
Attacking less often = less damage = nerf.
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0.86 attacks per second is better than 0.75 attacks.
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On February 25 2013 03:51 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
0.86 attacks per second is better than 0.75 attacks.
That's not how attack speed works in SC2. Roaches have an attack speed of 2, but they don't fire 2 shots a second. They fire a shot, wait two seconds, and shot again.
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Why are people suggesting that the hellbat cargo space nerf needs to be rolled back? The transform upgrade nerf doesn't affect anything regarding how strong the 4-hellbat drops were. Also, the purpose of hellbats was not to give Terran yet another way of cheesing/exploiting in the early game.
Terrans need to be more objective instead of TTing about nerfs. The nerfs are meant to balance the game, and Terran are getting them now because of how powerful their new units are and can be used.
I'm still waiting for players to figure out how to deal with mass Mines, and if not possible, then for Blizz to nerf it.
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On February 25 2013 03:51 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
0.86 attacks per second is better than 0.75 attacks.
The number is referring to cooldown time. Therefore a lower nmber is better. That is why when you stim marines and marauders the number drops (marauders attack cooldown goes from 1.5 to 1.0 when stimmed)
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Played many more games this patch, 150/150 and the time investment is way out of line. Even previous siege mode research only costed 100/100.
If they wanted to take this route to nerfing something (that was unnecessary and hurt mech tvp) they need to put it at around 50/50 and make it take about half the amount of time to research.
As it is, the cost is way too high resource-wise, and time wise.
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Avila you can still make hellbats without upgrade just can't transform till upgrade. It doesn't hurt mech much at all.
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I now just make hellions until armory then switch and make hellbats. I see no reason to ever research the transformation upgrade. Hellions do enough to stop lings and stupidly greedy expansions early game. HellBat drops are now intended to make sure the zerg can't auto remax. 3/3 hellbat drops late game completely decimate. Since you can produce hellbats 2 at a time from the factory there is never a reason to get the upgrade. Why build a hellion and transform it when you can build a hellbat in the same amount of time? I liked the cargo nerf, though I thought it should have been three hellbats not two. I never understood removing the blue flame upgrade...it's the same unit...and I still don't understand the bio tag. The core issue is that the hellbat takes the same amount of time that a hellion does to produce. If hellbats took 5 seconds longer to produce, hellion transform takes ~ 4 seconds, then it would make sense to get the upgrade. You would then be trading speed of having the unit for ~4 seconds of vulnerability. As it stands now I don't see this upgrade ever being used. It's almost like the overlord speed upgrade for zerg. Before lair it's almost never useful to spend the gas on that upgrade. There is almost no advantage to getting it that soon, much like there is almost no advantage to getting the servos.
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I think they'll come to the seemingly "unbeatable compositions" for various match-ups in late game. My guess is that they want to fix what is easy to fix first, i.e. timings that are too powerful in the early/mid-game. But the game release is very soon, I fear they don't have enough time to address more complicated matters :'(
Edit: I've played a bit with the upgrade in the new patch. Doesn't really bother me at all, tbh. What was nerfed heavily was the obviously abusive shit like "make a buncha hellions and a-move them later on monobattle-style in your face" which was not interesting at all for the metagame. I like all-ins and timing attacks, but I like them smart :D
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 25 2013 09:46 YarNhoj wrote:
I now just make hellions until armory then switch and make hellbats. I see no reason to ever research the transformation upgrade. Hellions do enough to stop lings and stupidly greedy expansions early game. HellBat drops are now intended to make sure the zerg can't auto remax. 3/3 hellbat drops late game completely decimate. Since you can produce hellbats 2 at a time from the factory there is never a reason to get the upgrade. Why build a hellion and transform it when you can build a hellbat in the same amount of time? I liked the cargo nerf, though I thought it should have been three hellbats not two. I never understood removing the blue flame upgrade...it's the same unit...and I still don't understand the bio tag. The core issue is that the hellbat takes the same amount of time that a hellion does to produce. If hellbats took 5 seconds longer to produce, hellion transform takes ~ 4 seconds, then it would make sense to get the upgrade. You would then be trading speed of having the unit for ~4 seconds of vulnerability. As it stands now I don't see this upgrade ever being used. It's almost like the overlord speed upgrade for zerg. Before lair it's almost never useful to spend the gas on that upgrade. There is almost no advantage to getting it that soon, much like there is almost no advantage to getting the servos.
As a meching terran I use that upgrade all the time. Being able to switch modes is really great and means you don't get pigeonholed into only having hellbats or only having hellions.
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On February 25 2013 01:56 Buff345 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 18:42 blade55555 wrote:On February 24 2013 18:20 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:On February 24 2013 17:33 aksfjh wrote:On February 24 2013 15:48 BoggieMan wrote:On February 23 2013 09:54 Zelniq wrote:On February 23 2013 09:53 Everlong wrote:
Also, Are they only watching TvZ for the first 10 minuts games?
... Yeah what about maxed terran mech or air armies, or sky toss? :/ If protoss and terran lategame gets too strong, it will kinda turn zerg completely upside down, considering how they used to play in wol with turtle with infestors into unstopable hive army. But i guess having a bad lategame isen't going to make your race underpowered. Terrans never really used lategame oriented play in wol (even though terran air could be really good) and still had around 50% win (sometimes less, sometimes more) most of the time in tvp and tvz. They had a 50% winrate until the queen buff. When forced to go to the late game almost every game, GSL winrates dropped to the low 40s and mid 30s. There's a lot of Zerg talk that sounds like "ZOMG Terran air is SOOOOOO strong! Just max 200 on ravens, BCs, and vikings!" But it doesn't seem to work all too well at the pro level, otherwise we would see Terran do it to overcome their now abysmal chances in the matchup. In contrast, even when ZvT didn't revolve around infestors, there wasn't a real need to adapt to the infestor playstyle. GSL winrates for Zerg were still pretty solid, with the occasional dip here and there. I just don't buy that Terrans are somehow ignoring this supposed blatant lategame army strength while having extremely dismal numbers. Doesn't add up. It's almost impossible to transition. Look at Bomber vs Sniper r32 this gsl (entombed). Bomber wins, but it's by a hair where he plays massive macro and barely holds Sniper's ultralisk agression with a close to maxed army several times. A switch to unupgraded bc's would get him killed. Heck, many terrans struggle with having enough vikings. Yeah it's not as hard in hots though. Well to a point. Ravens are sick good now so it's not hard to tech to ravens and get quiet a few, but yeah teching to the ultimate raven/bc/viking is very hard to get to thank god. If it was easy oh lord T_T I know youre pretty high rated in hots, so Im kinda curious about how terrans hold ultras while getting ravens out. Like how are the ravens used in order to help against the ultras? I play quite a bit of hots, but Ive been avoiding ravens except in air vs air situations. Not being an ass, actually want to know.
With ultra heavy tech, it's better to maintain a tank/thor/hellbat army while keeping them mobile at all times. Only transition into air if you're really far ahead. The gas cost for a mech into air transition is significant, you will need up to 6 bases to transition smoothly. Stay on mech with viking support for TvZ, it's a better composition until Z starts fielding broodlords in large numbers, then replace tank/hellbats with ravens and vikings. In realistic games, the transition is too lengthy unless both players play turtly i.e. split map situations on daybreak.
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On February 23 2013 18:31 avilo wrote:
No Terran player is going to argue btw guys, because this is how it works during beta:
Zerg players die from only building drones and queens, while complaining about anything from Terran on stream.
Blizzard sees this, they also see all the Protoss whining about "widow mine drops."
If any Terran *raises his hand* and is like, "eh...wait what? We're only nerfing Terran stuff that wasn't an issue in the first place?" they get labelled as a "whiner" by the Zerg / Protoss whiners.
All the attention lately is on Terran's only two new units, the hellbat and widow mine, and how they "MUST BE NERFED THEY'RE SO IMBA" after literally 2 weeks of new metagame usage of the hellbat.
Things ignored by the community (possibly blizzard? would hope not) :
-viper blinding cloud radius/duration
-ultra buff vs bio
-oracles vs all races bursting down workers
-tvp early game being a cluster fuck
I cannot wait till people find out about the new Zerg abuse that will be shown soon - mass vipers + mass static defense with traditional broodlords+corruptor+infestor turtle mode.
As well as mass swarmhost + corruptor.
When this strategy comes out soon, it won't be deemed imbalanced (because it's Zerg) - people are instead going to say how fucking innovative it is and golf clap their hands without a second thought because right now whichever part of the community whines the loudest or whichever popular streamers do get the game changed for the worse.
I agreed with a lot of the hellbat nerfs, especially the cargo one. But double and triple nerfing/buffing units is a bit too much. And it historically only happens to Terran. I personally don't care if Terran is nerfed further, nor should any other Terran player. What would be nice though is that they were consistent across all 3 of the races with nerfs/buffs, instead of only nerfing Terran.
If you're going to nerf/buff something of one race, you have to do it across the board and look at all three races and what's possibly too strong or weak. Not to mention you get 10x better PR for it.
And Terrans will continue to not say shit here or anywhere else because of the backlash they get for actually having an opinion.
It would be nice if more Terran players had some balls.
im thinking that because they are less and less terran players curently playing this game also most of the good one are
korean , while they are ALOT of good foreigner pro zerg and protoss , and they never wait for cry nerf at anything and are usualy very vocal .
also at lower level terran kinda look OP more easy ,and also because that the only race who realy need to win early game because the late game realy bad ( so since forever when terran find something or good all in for end the game fast , they never stop ) and it got nerfed . mostly because people think that more op when the build make you loss before the 15 min mark , when something hit at late game they take more time to say that because ''the build op'' and at lower level this never reach this point and most of them dont even know what strong or why they loss or if that fair at this point in the game .
also the fact that many master and higher foreigner terran just stoped this game for exemple i was playing bw for 8 year at a high level and switched to sc2 , but so did about 7-8 people i have know from bw , everyone of them was diamond right when the league have open , and everyone of them got master right when the league got open too , many of them was playing less that 10 hour week , im not saying that for say they are amazing but because all of them KNOW how rts work and when they reply for exemple in a forum they make realy good post who are often taked more seriously , they know what broken .
im saying that because most good foreigner who switched bw to starcraft 2 , most of them droped this game . but you cant say the same from the zerg and protoss in bw , they are often more influential that new rts player who are curently good at starcraft 2 , and many terran who are curently good in starcraft 2 are usualy new rts player who just dont whine because they dont have enough rts background for know if the nerf was fine or what realy wrong with the game .
for exemple the old NTT from bw did try some foreplay into sc2 for end up stoping disgusted . i got gm myself playing after my 8 hour/day job but stoped about 5 months ago , totaly disgusted at the way blizzard balance this title , im saying that because people who are good curently in sc2 are not that much talented at rts
( for exemple many B teamer in bw was top 1-5 in sc2 right away ) but strangely realy amazing broodwar player never did that good in sc2 , these people were far more talented at rts that the b teamer who dominated them in sc2 , i would realy like to know what are the skill required for be sucessful in sc2 .( maybe not playing terran a part of it )
just the fact that many bw b teamer got that good prove something , in about 8 people in my f list
( 4 terran ) ( who could clearly have been pro gamer in sc2 if they wanted ) almost all of them stoped ,my f list was full of amazing player at some point and even 2 of them got gm playing almost never but all of them droped this game at some point .
also the fact you cant just talk about what wrong with the game will never help you guy
''when something was broken in bw everyone was talking or would talk about it ''
you find some strange rules for this sc2 titles with the community who got the name ESPORTS right away that you cant talk about his balance or flaw in balance because people think it should be perfect for some strange reason .
im many website you are banned or flagged right away as whiner when you make a post saying you think the game not totaly balanced and you are labeled right away :
''a balance whiner ''
that a pure childiss dream to hope a game complex like sc2 was balanced right at the releases date
( it got the title esport right away and everyone got say ''stfu about balance whine'' the game perfect )
bw have take year for get the tag esport ( mostly after the team behind the game stoped changing all stuft each week )
then people figured stuft during year for get the balance at the end .
sc2 got changed each week , stuft changed , build changed , unit removed and so on , with a team of monkey for balance it
( blizzard also balance wow and diablo 3 , why you think this team would balance more into a complex rts like sc2 ??? )
im saying that because im realy not taking this game seriously as a rts game sucessor , people should just take this game as a fun litle game in space where you kill monster and be done with it ,
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On February 25 2013 08:51 avilo wrote:
Played many more games this patch, 150/150 and the time investment is way out of line. Even previous siege mode research only costed 100/100.
If they wanted to take this route to nerfing something (that was unnecessary and hurt mech tvp) they need to put it at around 50/50 and make it take about half the amount of time to research.
As it is, the cost is way too high resource-wise, and time wise.
The siege research was removed for the sake of timings not the cost. So when comparing WoL to HoTS your total required research cost for defensive mech has only increased by 50/50 (-100/100+150/150). You then have the option in late game to get the mine upgrade, but I don't really think that upgrade is in the scope of this situation.
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On February 25 2013 09:24 blade55555 wrote:
Avila you can still make hellbats without upgrade just can't transform till upgrade. It doesn't hurt mech much at all.
hehe...
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On February 25 2013 04:19 Jinky wrote:
Why are people suggesting that the hellbat cargo space nerf needs to be rolled back? The transform upgrade nerf doesn't affect anything regarding how strong the 4-hellbat drops were. Also, the purpose of hellbats was not to give Terran yet another way of cheesing/exploiting in the early game.
Terrans need to be more objective instead of TTing about nerfs. The nerfs are meant to balance the game, and Terran are getting them now because of how powerful their new units are and can be used.
I'm still waiting for players to figure out how to deal with mass Mines, and if not possible, then for Blizz to nerf it.
How do you deal with mass mines? Get detection? It seems like some TTing to me.
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EPT
