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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. |
On March 05 2013 16:01 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:26 aksfjh wrote:On February 24 2013 04:54 Bagi wrote:On February 24 2013 04:18 Alryk wrote:On February 24 2013 03:03 Big J wrote:On February 24 2013 02:41 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 23 2013 23:38 Big J wrote:You expect us to believe a 14.5 dps unit that moves at 2.81 (with upgrade) is the worst unit in the game.
Either you have no idea how to optimize their damage output beyond a-move, you use them unescorted or both.
Well, Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps 550HP/3armor unit with a 300damage blast (with upgrade) which additionally can fly as bad unit. You see how ridicolous such stuff sounds when you don't include how much those units cost or what they require? And you tell other people how immature their discussion style is... I didn't believe you'd resort to lying, Big J. I'll try to be civil. It should be read as:Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps range 6, 550HP/3 armor unit with 300 damage blast (with upgrade) every 125 seconds, vulnerablility to feedback spell and which additionally can fly as bad unit.
In any case on 4 bases, cost is not an issue, production rate is. Hahahahahaha.... lol. + Show Spoiler +Really hard to even know where to begin with responding to this bullshit. I know I shouldn't, it's not worth my time. But whatever, I'm in a good mood, can as well have some fun with this troll, So whenever someone describes a unit he has to point out every stat the unit has and every spell interaction? Yeah, what a lyer I am not mentioning every freaking thing that is true for the BC. Pssst, before someone says that hydralisks don't get a dusk/dawn sight bonus you really should mention it... Oh too late. I found out that you didn't mention it. You lyer! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! And to your "cost is no issue, production rate is". Well, if cost is no issue and you have 50scvs (so building production rate is 50), why don't you build 50starports to get the same production rate as a zerg? Of course cost is THE issue. Z and P have more production, because their infrastructure COSTS less. actually protoss infrastructure is more expensive. factory is 150/100, 190/100 if you count for scv build time. Robo facility is 200/100. But its really only 150/100 because Terran have mules to offset scvs building, and the minerals don't actually go away. a star port is also 150/100 I believe? Compared to a star gate bring 150/150. And how much is a fusion core? Fleet beacon is 300/200. An armory is 150/100 while a robotics bay is 200/200. And a ghost academy is 100/50 right? Vs a 100/200 templar archives, not to mention the need for a 150/100 twilight council. No need to mention barracks/gateway. edit: as a sky toss versus zerg: I think allowing blinding cloud to hit air or affect casters would be a wonderful idea personally. Does anybody else share it? I think it would definitely help balance out pvz, and I don't think needing skytoss is how to do it. I see in you are counting SCV build times, what happens when you include separate upgrades for terran land units but not protoss ones? What about addons, how do they factor in? I wonder when people will learn not to directly compare races in Starcraft. Agreed. Though, there seems to be a lot of complaints from the other side of the fence of "It's only a 100 mineral unit!" I don't understand how zergs can complain so much about hellbats "only costing 100 minerals" when they have queens that only cost 150 and are tier 1. I mean out of all 3 races zerg has the best mineral sinks by far. Queens have so much utility and snowball when semi-massed and don't even cost larvae. Combine them with spines and spores (T1 and minerals only) and that is why we saw gasless 3 base zergs in WOL. Hellbats require a significant amount of gas and tech to even start production so it's not really even fair to evaluate them purely as a mineral sink until the late game. During which zerg has spines/lings/queens/spores for a mineral sink, and late game toss have cannons/chargelots and relatively gas inexpensive stalkers. All of this MYTH about Terran having 2 mineral sinks and Zerg and Protoss only having 1 needs to just end because it's simply not true.
So much this.
Seriously, Zerg have the most imba unit (Queen) being underutilized for one spell when they really have THREE powerful spells, 150hp heal and a vision spell (via creep spread). Did I mention queens also have the same dps of a roach?
I have always found it odd that Zerg pros don't do creep tumor drops on the opponent's third base to force them to burn scans or build observers. Also, mass queen drops.
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On March 05 2013 17:43 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 16:01 GorGor wrote:On February 24 2013 05:26 aksfjh wrote:On February 24 2013 04:54 Bagi wrote:On February 24 2013 04:18 Alryk wrote:On February 24 2013 03:03 Big J wrote:On February 24 2013 02:41 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 23 2013 23:38 Big J wrote:You expect us to believe a 14.5 dps unit that moves at 2.81 (with upgrade) is the worst unit in the game.
Either you have no idea how to optimize their damage output beyond a-move, you use them unescorted or both.
Well, Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps 550HP/3armor unit with a 300damage blast (with upgrade) which additionally can fly as bad unit. You see how ridicolous such stuff sounds when you don't include how much those units cost or what they require? And you tell other people how immature their discussion style is... I didn't believe you'd resort to lying, Big J. I'll try to be civil. It should be read as:Terrans are trying to sell a 35.6dps range 6, 550HP/3 armor unit with 300 damage blast (with upgrade) every 125 seconds, vulnerablility to feedback spell and which additionally can fly as bad unit.
In any case on 4 bases, cost is not an issue, production rate is. Hahahahahaha.... lol. + Show Spoiler +Really hard to even know where to begin with responding to this bullshit. I know I shouldn't, it's not worth my time. But whatever, I'm in a good mood, can as well have some fun with this troll, So whenever someone describes a unit he has to point out every stat the unit has and every spell interaction? Yeah, what a lyer I am not mentioning every freaking thing that is true for the BC. Pssst, before someone says that hydralisks don't get a dusk/dawn sight bonus you really should mention it... Oh too late. I found out that you didn't mention it. You lyer! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! And to your "cost is no issue, production rate is". Well, if cost is no issue and you have 50scvs (so building production rate is 50), why don't you build 50starports to get the same production rate as a zerg? Of course cost is THE issue. Z and P have more production, because their infrastructure COSTS less. actually protoss infrastructure is more expensive. factory is 150/100, 190/100 if you count for scv build time. Robo facility is 200/100. But its really only 150/100 because Terran have mules to offset scvs building, and the minerals don't actually go away. a star port is also 150/100 I believe? Compared to a star gate bring 150/150. And how much is a fusion core? Fleet beacon is 300/200. An armory is 150/100 while a robotics bay is 200/200. And a ghost academy is 100/50 right? Vs a 100/200 templar archives, not to mention the need for a 150/100 twilight council. No need to mention barracks/gateway. edit: as a sky toss versus zerg: I think allowing blinding cloud to hit air or affect casters would be a wonderful idea personally. Does anybody else share it? I think it would definitely help balance out pvz, and I don't think needing skytoss is how to do it. I see in you are counting SCV build times, what happens when you include separate upgrades for terran land units but not protoss ones? What about addons, how do they factor in? I wonder when people will learn not to directly compare races in Starcraft. Agreed. Though, there seems to be a lot of complaints from the other side of the fence of "It's only a 100 mineral unit!" I don't understand how zergs can complain so much about hellbats "only costing 100 minerals" when they have queens that only cost 150 and are tier 1. I mean out of all 3 races zerg has the best mineral sinks by far. Queens have so much utility and snowball when semi-massed and don't even cost larvae. Combine them with spines and spores (T1 and minerals only) and that is why we saw gasless 3 base zergs in WOL. Hellbats require a significant amount of gas and tech to even start production so it's not really even fair to evaluate them purely as a mineral sink until the late game. During which zerg has spines/lings/queens/spores for a mineral sink, and late game toss have cannons/chargelots and relatively gas inexpensive stalkers. All of this MYTH about Terran having 2 mineral sinks and Zerg and Protoss only having 1 needs to just end because it's simply not true. So much this. Seriously, Zerg have the most imba unit (Queen) being underutilized for one spell when they really have THREE powerful spells, 150hp heal and a vision spell (via creep spread). Did I mention queens also have the same dps of a roach? I have always found it odd that Zerg pros don't do creep tumor drops on the opponent's third base to force them to burn scans or build observers. Also, mass queen drops.
Just gotta love how you two guys completly missed the point of the posts you are responding to.
aksfjh and Bagi argue that units and their costs are not directly comparable. Next thing you guys do is initiate a counterwhine about queens and their costs... 
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On March 04 2013 23:05 FLuE wrote:
MC is a cool idea and overall well designed and useful.
I strongly disagree with this. It's a very poorly designed unit. I'm fine with the Time Warp and the Recall abilities, I think they're good and needed, but they could be given to other unit(s). For example, the Photon Overcharge and the Recall could be casted from the Nexus itself.
If we take aesthetics in consideration, the MSC is horrible, it's simply a floating ball. Even the attack animation is awkward. The MSC was introduced to avoid the removal of the Mothership from the game. The problem is that Blizzard removed the Vortex ability from the Mothership, so now it is almost pointless to build one since your only advantage is the cloaking field.
Then, Blizzard tried make the MSC an early defense unit, that would attach to the Nexus. Then it became an independent unit that can attack and defend with a multitude of abilities . In the end of this mess and amalgamation of different concepts what we have is an unit with and undefined role that just adds up to the Protoss deathball.
In my opinion, there's nothing well designed about this unit. Blizzard's objectives with this unit were always unclear. The final result is a wierd unit that fills strange roles within the game.
On March 04 2013 23:05 FLuE wrote:
Hellbat is a strong unit, nothing exciting about it but if you are a Terran player you will like them.
A mech unit that can be healed by a Medivac! Requires variable cargo space! Infernal Pre-Igniter what !! I'm not even going to talk about the Messbat anymore.
On March 04 2013 23:05 FLuE wrote:
Tempest is strong but boring. Rather they just made the carrier better. Using tempest isn't fun and watching pros use them won't be exciting.
I'm with you on this one. The Tempest is such an uninspired unit that it hurts to watch. This is another unit that suffers from the same problem that the MSC. There was never a plan for this unit, it was just hammered down into the game until it fitted somehow...
By the way, if Blizzard wanted to promote Terran mech play versus Protoss why would they add a flying unit that shoots from such a ridiculous range therefore directly countering Siege Tanks? Does this make any sense?
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On March 05 2013 21:56 Warpish wrote:
For example, the Photon Overcharge and the Recall could be casted from the Nexus itself.
That would be horribly overpowered, even at 200 energy. Gateway units are down and your colossi are about to fall? Recall. There, the enemy lost most of his army, I warp zealots/stalkers from 12 warpgates and still have 4 colossi to go with them. Recall as an ability can only work because the mothership core is unique and vulnerable in the late game.
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On March 06 2013 00:43 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 21:56 Warpish wrote:
For example, the Photon Overcharge and the Recall could be casted from the Nexus itself.
That would be horribly overpowered, even at 200 energy. Gateway units are down and your colossi are about to fall? Recall. There, the enemy lost most of his army, I warp zealots/stalkers from 12 warpgates and still have 4 colossi to go with them. Recall as an ability can only work because the mothership core is unique and vulnerable in the late game.
Not necessarily. In BW you could build several Arbiters that could all recall. That was never a problem. I think that the warpgate mechanic is more problematic than that, but that would be another discussion. Anyway, it was only an example.
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On March 06 2013 02:46 Warpish wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 00:43 Telenil wrote:On March 05 2013 21:56 Warpish wrote:
For example, the Photon Overcharge and the Recall could be casted from the Nexus itself.
That would be horribly overpowered, even at 200 energy. Gateway units are down and your colossi are about to fall? Recall. There, the enemy lost most of his army, I warp zealots/stalkers from 12 warpgates and still have 4 colossi to go with them. Recall as an ability can only work because the mothership core is unique and vulnerable in the late game. Not necessarily. In BW you could build several Arbiters that could all recall. That was never a problem. I think that the warpgate mechanic is more problematic than that, but that would be another discussion. Anyway, it was only an example.
In BW, recall was a rather offensive ability used mainly as a massive drop (units appeared under the recalling arbiter), meanwhile in hots the recall brings you back in your base, which is a lot safer.
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On March 06 2013 03:07 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 02:46 Warpish wrote:On March 06 2013 00:43 Telenil wrote:On March 05 2013 21:56 Warpish wrote:
For example, the Photon Overcharge and the Recall could be casted from the Nexus itself.
That would be horribly overpowered, even at 200 energy. Gateway units are down and your colossi are about to fall? Recall. There, the enemy lost most of his army, I warp zealots/stalkers from 12 warpgates and still have 4 colossi to go with them. Recall as an ability can only work because the mothership core is unique and vulnerable in the late game. Not necessarily. In BW you could build several Arbiters that could all recall. That was never a problem. I think that the warpgate mechanic is more problematic than that, but that would be another discussion. Anyway, it was only an example. In BW, recall was a rather offensive ability used mainly as a massive drop (units appeared under the recalling arbiter), meanwhile in hots the recall brings you back in your base, which is a lot safer.
I know that and I agree with you. I was just pointing out to Telenil that I think that Recall does not need to be an ability that is exclusive to an hero-like unit like the MSC.
Moreover, the Arbiter version of the Recall is much superior because it allows offensive and defensive recalls. The Mothership in WoL also allowed that but you couldn't build more than one Mothership.
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The mothership core and all the various incarnations I believe were trying to develop defensive options for protoss that didn't require a forge. So it allows for more variation in protoss openings.
I think the mothership core is pretty cool. I like the way it eventually ties into the mothership. I just wish they made the mothership a bit cooler.
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On March 06 2013 13:49 DoubleReed wrote:
The mothership core and all the various incarnations I believe were trying to develop defensive options for protoss that didn't require a forge. So it allows for more variation in protoss openings.
I think the mothership core is pretty cool. I like the way it eventually ties into the mothership. I just wish they made the mothership a bit cooler.
I am still of the opinion that when a single unit + nexus that can lock out any army for what seems to be 5 mins at full energy is pretty silly. I feel like attacking toss early nowasays is a suicide mission
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EPT
