EPTCan we ban him from the HotS forum now, please? It's long overdue
Balance Update #15 - February 22, 2013 - Page 23
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FYI: You can still make hellbats without the upgrade, you just can't transform in and out of them until you get the upgrade. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
Can we ban him from the HotS forum now, please? It's long overdue | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
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nyshak
Germany132 Posts
On March 01 2013 08:02 Thieving Magpie wrote: By these standards then Mutalisks and Scouts are the same design. No because the attack type is different. Scouts only deal single target damage, Mutalisk hit multiple targets. You see, tweak the numbers down of the hellbat form and you have the firebat. I've seen a couple of Blizz devs talk about how they want to try and balance a unit by tweaking its numbers, without changing the core design. This is what I think they mean. A good example of this is the tempest. Its original design was to be a mass anti-air unit. Then Blizz decided to change the design to a long range, single target unit. Now they have to tweak the numbers (damage, HP, speed and whatnot) to finally balance the unit. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On March 02 2013 01:56 nyshak wrote: No because the attack type is different. Scouts only deal single target damage, Mutalisk hit multiple targets. You see, tweak the numbers down of the hellbat form and you have the firebat. I've seen a couple of Blizz devs talk about how they want to try and balance a unit by tweaking its numbers, without changing the core design. This is what I think they mean. A good example of this is the tempest. Its original design was to be a mass anti-air unit. Then Blizz decided to change the design to a long range, single target unit. Now they have to tweak the numbers (damage, HP, speed and whatnot) to finally balance the unit. If you honestly believe that what differentiates a Mutalisk and a Scout is that glaive worms bounce then I have honestly no more interest in talking to someone who clearly doesn't understand BW. | ||
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nyshak
Germany132 Posts
On March 02 2013 02:47 Thieving Magpie wrote: If you honestly believe that what differentiates a Mutalisk and a Scout is that glaive worms bounce then I have honestly no more interest in talking to someone who clearly doesn't understand BW. Fine by me. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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Schopenhauer17
16 Posts
Airbattles: are cause of the lack of collision not as nice to watch as the more micro and pathing focused ground fights. At first as was afraid of the way Protoss in HOTS was evolving, but after seeing more games I pretty much like it. I am still concerned when it comes so mass air vs. air situations. I dont like it at all. What do you think? Do you agree that ground to anti-air should be more potent? I was thinking of changing the Role of the Thor, to become even better against (not-light) air, as well as giving him a more specific role in general.[If both of the Thors Weapons were to fire at the same time and even further increasing their reload time while improving their damage output, they would be more microble and more specific in ground fights - stronger against tougher units and even weaker than before against smaller ones] I would as well like to see Hydras being modified in a way that they are of even better usage against air. Hydras are expansive and you have to take good care of them. They also require a lot of investment. I was thinking of giving them +1 Range (maybe even +2) versus air, when upgraded with range. That might as well fix the over dominant muta vs. muta fights in ZvZ (I think they are stupid and spore crawler change is way to specific and not sufficient enough) What do you think? I am okay with Swarm Hosts an I like the addition of Widow Mines. There are details somehow I would change. First the Swarm Host: there main purpose should be to make pressure, retreating from them should be a more legit option. As a consequence I would reduce the movement speed of the spawnlings (30% maybe?) I am seeing their role somewhat close to a siege tank (same goes for the widow mine). Using them should require more tactical decision making. I would like them to un-borrow instantly, but at the same time increasing the amount of time for them to be burrowed by a lot. It should be well considered moving them blindly to the front without having good intel on whats going on. Widow mines should not be allowed to target workers as primary target. Protoss: Giving them more options via the Air-tech is nice. I would like to see a comeback to the original “townportal” approach earlier in the beta. If the Mothership-Core would still be able to function as a recall unit, operating from a nexus (required upgrade from cyber-core), with even more powerful recall capabilities, Protoss would be more encouraged to try to move out (at this stage they are staying inside the base way to often until 200 supply). The Mothership-Nexus could have the permanent cannon added - adding a new primary target to destroy (and a new little addition to the gameplay with that, which Nexus do you choose?). Recall could work like this: when being activated the units can’t move for some seconds and then have to remain paralyzed at the home nexus for 5-10 seconds (?) Doing this and really making it a strong and core mechanism to Protoss would allow to fix one of the older and bigger issues with Protoss - the force field. I love them, but at times they can become ridiculous. Reducing the max. energy from sentries to let’s say 140 could really improve the situation, especially combined with the stronger recall ability. This would as well improve the too powerful scouting via hallucinate - you have to choose more carefully how to spend your energy. Terran: As many I would like to see more tank usage. Mech based on mainly Thors and (Battle-) Hellions doesn’t count as mech! Changing the tank damage-profit from upgrades even more could help (1. +5. 2. +10. 3. +15) ? The speed bonus to medivacs adds some nice new possibilities, but being completely free isn’t the right way. If using the speed bonus would come along with an stop of energy regeneration - until the ability of after burner is available again - that would put an end to wasteful usage of the boost without having to huge of an impact. Of course these are just some thoughts, some of these changes would be problematic in specific circumstances - but in my opinion it would improve the overall game. What do you think, please don’t be too focused on details as they are not perfect | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On March 01 2013 23:43 RampancyTW wrote: Okay Rabiator has officially lost it Can we ban him from the HotS forum now, please? It's long overdue You have to have it to loose it  | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On March 01 2013 20:54 Rabiator wrote: 1. Not everyone lives in the US and I wouldnt work for Blizzard unless they would hire me as a dictator. Since that wont happen I would say your remarks about my post just come from confusion and unwillingness to understand the problem. - MORE isnt automatically BETTER. - FASTER isnt automatically BETTER. - You CAN have too much of some things ... Maybe you will figure out some things that are wrong with these guidelines. 2. You apparently didnt understand the point of my praise of BW. It was SLOWER than SC2 and this made "mechanical control" (clicking skills) far less important than it is in SC2 + Show Spoiler + Sure you could improve your skill through better control of units in BW, but there was no "you MUST split your Marines against these Banelings" units in BW which totally screw over newbies and casuals. SLOWER is BETTER because it allows more control. (Allows for casuals to be not-so-far-behind their not-so-casual friends who can more easily manage vast amount of multitasking.) FEWER UNITS on the battlefield is BETTER because it allows more control. (Watching a 2v2 Zergling v Zergling battle where one player wins with BOTH his Zerglings still alive is far more exciting than watching two clumps 50-100 units for both sides annihilate each other.) Only the really pro players can actually manage the amount of stuff that needs to be done in SC2 now and casuals - who are the excuse for putting in the whole ez-mode junk - dont really get anything at all. All they get is being overwhelmed by massive a-move-all-ins with Banelings or whatever crazy stuff is the flavour of the month. 3. Who are you kidding about Koreans? They are trained in the most intense environment and hardly any westerner can make up for that except with superior talent; in the Korean "prepare a week for one match against a player you analyze beforehand" situation beating them is hardly possible at all. The only exception is a long and tough competition - like MLG or Dreamhack - where you play many games a day and are physically taxed in addition to the challenge of the game. I think this is a a very articulate and accurate post in my 12 year experience with BW. Many progamers citicize the fact that you have "B-Teamers" easily making it to Code A or Code S that never had the skillset to be there before. Most korean backlash is not present because they don't want to appear "bad manner." Instead they just stop playing the game and find another strategy game more lucrative. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On March 01 2013 22:12 MstrJinbo wrote: You and I have very different recollections of BW it would seem. The BW I remember took considerably more clicks to do just just about anything. Try sending an army of zerglings anywhere across them map and then tell me whether or not you think mechanical control is less important in BW than SC2. Don't get me wrong BW micro was a beautiful thing, but stop making up stuff to try and prove a point that doesn't matter. The thing is that you couldnt do "precise minute movement" in BW (for ground units), so it wasnt really possible to do 0.1 sec super-precise adjustments to your unit movement. Thus all you could do is "approximate movement" and thus the precision movement wasnt as important FOR MOST OF US. Only at the real top end of the skill meter did it start to make a difference, BUT it was basically needed for ALL UNITS instead of just some like in SC2. In contrast you have these stupid "you lose if you fail to micro your units away" units in SC2 and these apply to ALL SKILL LEVELS. Thus the requirement of minute control is put on people who cant really do it ... the casuals. On March 01 2013 23:43 RampancyTW wrote: Okay Rabiator has officially lost it Can we ban him from the HotS forum now, please? It's long overdue And you base this opinion on what? On March 01 2013 23:47 Bagi wrote: Anyone saying BW is mechanically easier than SC2 should get banned for trolling. BW didnt REQUIRE mechanic control as much as SC2 does. You could just live with your units taking a scenic route, but in SC2 you - as the defender - more or less "instantly lose" if you fail to move against Banelings and there are many more units and skills which have this "you failed to move properly" part attached to them ... like spreading against/not being split by Forcefields, running blindly into Widow Mines, ... All these things work for all skill levels and thats the terrible part of it. The "sucky movement" in BW was acceptable for most levels of play and in any case you didnt lose half your army from such a mistake because you only had 12 per control group anyways. ---- Many people might agree with the sentiment that I have "lost it", but I would counter that with "you dont think outside the box (if at all) and just believe the ads of Blizzard that everything new is better." Just grow up, grow wise, stop believing the propaganda (ads) and learn to think for yourselves. Increased economy, production speed boosts, perfectly tigh unit movement and unlimited unit selection do have their price and it is the super precise balance (which might not even be achievable) which they need to reach. Specialized balance solutions like the ones for Widow Mines, Battle Hellions and Spore Crawler (which have essentially made up the last few patches) are just the symptoms which really make it obvious that something is wrong / badly implemented / designed. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On March 04 2013 21:08 Rabiator wrote: Well, at least now we got to the bottom of the issue. Rabiator was terrible at BW and is apparently even worse at SC2, and looks for ridiculous excuses such as "BW required less mechanical skill than SC2" to justify his inability to adjust to change.The thing is that you couldnt do "precise minute movement" in BW (for ground units), so it wasnt really possible to do 0.1 sec super-precise adjustments to your unit movement. Thus all you could do is "approximate movement" and thus the precision movement wasnt as important FOR MOST OF US. Only at the real top end of the skill meter did it start to make a difference, BUT it was basically needed for ALL UNITS instead of just some like in SC2. In contrast you have these stupid "you lose if you fail to micro your units away" units in SC2 and these apply to ALL SKILL LEVELS. Thus the requirement of minute control is put on people who cant really do it ... the casuals. And you base this opinion on what? BW didnt REQUIRE mechanic control as much as SC2 does. You could just live with your units taking a scenic route, but in SC2 you - as the defender - more or less "instantly lose" if you fail to move against Banelings and there are many more units and skills which have this "you failed to move properly" part attached to them ... like spreading against/not being split by Forcefields, running blindly into Widow Mines, ... All these things work for all skill levels and thats the terrible part of it. The "sucky movement" in BW was acceptable for most levels of play and in any case you didnt lose half your army from such a mistake because you only had 12 per control group anyways. ---- Many people might agree with the sentiment that I have "lost it", but I would counter that with "you dont think outside the box (if at all) and just believe the ads of Blizzard that everything new is better." Just grow up, grow wise, stop believing the propaganda (ads) and learn to think for yourselves. Increased economy, production speed boosts, perfectly tigh unit movement and unlimited unit selection do have their price and it is the super precise balance (which might not even be achievable) which they need to reach. Specialized balance solutions like the ones for Widow Mines, Battle Hellions and Spore Crawler (which have essentially made up the last few patches) are just the symptoms which really make it obvious that something is wrong / badly implemented / designed. The funny part is that you think we're just brainwashed by Blizzard propaganda when, unlike you, we've actually been playing and experiencing SC2. Whereas you (self-admittedly) don't even play. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
But I'm happy with : Zerg - Viper is a cool caster unit. Fun to watch. Cloud will get nerfed but it is a unit a pro player will get a lot out of. Swarm host will be tough to balance but a unit that has good utility and Zerg needed it. New muta is strong and fun to use. Protoss - MC is a cool idea and overall well designed and useful. The race is strong and diverse now and not having to open robo for obs is good. The race doesn't play a ton different early game from WoL though. Terran - Love widow mine. Fun to use, pros will do cool things with it. New medivac boost is great but maybe to strong. Hellbat is a strong unit, nothing exciting about it but if you are a Terran player you will like them. What I don't like : Zerg - Hydras need some more work. They are still a bit weak and it would be nice if it was a bit stronger AA unit. Infestor seems more in balance but wish neural was looked at. Corrupters corruption is lame, wish a better spell its not fun to watch as a spectator or use as a player. Protoss - Oracle, although strong, seems like a unit that was forced in simply for the OBS need. I just don't love the unit... Tempest is strong but boring. Rather they just made the carrier better. Using tempest isn't fun and watching pros use them won't be exciting. Terran - BCs needed some love and didn't get it. Raven is strong but I hate it. HSM design is dumb. Thors are a unit that should have been removed for a more mobile AA unit. The cannon thing seems useless to me. Just some of my personal feelings after a few hundred games playing random. | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On March 04 2013 21:08 Rabiator wrote: BW didnt REQUIRE mechanic control as much as SC2 does. You could just live with your units taking a scenic route, but in SC2 you - as the defender - more or less "instantly lose" if you fail to move against Banelings and there are many more units and skills which have this "you failed to move properly" part attached to them ... like spreading against/not being split by Forcefields, running blindly into Widow Mines, ... All these things work for all skill levels and thats the terrible part of it. The "sucky movement" in BW was acceptable for most levels of play and in any case you didnt lose half your army from such a mistake because you only had 12 per control group anyways. I am mid-Masters in SC2, and when I try to go back and play Brood War I struggle to be able to macro decently and have any semblance of control over my army. I'm not sure how to respond to the claim that BW required less mechanical control than SC2, because the claim is so absurd. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On March 04 2013 21:08 Rabiator wrote: BW didnt REQUIRE mechanic control as much as SC2 does. You could just live with your units taking a scenic route, but in SC2 you - as the defender - more or less "instantly lose" if you fail to move against Banelings and there are many more units and skills which have this "you failed to move properly" part attached to them ... like spreading against/not being split by Forcefields, running blindly into Widow Mines, ... All these things work for all skill levels and thats the terrible part of it. The "sucky movement" in BW was acceptable for most levels of play and in any case you didnt lose half your army from such a mistake because you only had 12 per control group anyways. In BW the player with the superior mechanics will still have twice as many units as you, and your army will be still be running in a straight line into the meatgrinder that is sieged tanks + spider mines unless you know how to control it properly. BW absolutely required raw mechanics, and moreso than SC2 it required them in every single aspect of the game. Without mechanics you won't have SCV production or have then mining, you cannot macro properly, you cannot move your army around. That's a lot worse than having a few units (such as banes) that require a player to split up their units really quickly in response. Even with banes a player with lacking mechanics but good game sense can keep their units pre-split in case they have scouted the enemy massing banes, now tell me how you can prepare for keeping up in macro in BW? I don't really understand why you ignore the fact that you need solid mechanics in BW to get anywhere at all - yet because SC2 has ONE instance where it requires you to react faster than anything in BW, it suddenly requires more mechanics and is less noob friendly than BW ever was. Could you be any more biased in your comparison? | ||
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TeslasPigeon
464 Posts
Another thing that can be done is reworking the nexus cannon, 20 damage with 13 range is way too much. I thought the original purpose of nexus cannon was to stave off early rushes/harassment. Reducing range to 10 and making the damage base 10 with +5 or 8 for light units would be more than sufficient to help against early aggression. Or maybe reduce the duration to 30 or 45 seconds. EDIT: one last thing to add, time warp should effect friendly units that are in it, not just the enemies. There needs to be a trade off when it comes to abilities and a lot of the new abilities lack this. | ||
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MrMatt
Canada225 Posts
On March 05 2013 05:14 TeslasPigeon wrote: I feel like recall should either be a 50/50/60sec upgrade at the cybercore or it should take longer to activate, after watching pro games protoss seems to have the safest early to mid game which will allow even more corners to be cut when teching up once timings and unit cohesion is figured out. There needs to be some minor tweaks to stop this. Another thing that can be done is reworking the nexus cannon, 20 damage with 13 range is way too much. I thought the original purpose of nexus cannon was to stave off early rushes/harassment. Reducing range to 10 and making the damage base 10 with +5 or 8 for light units would be more than sufficient to help against early aggression. Or maybe reduce the duration to 30 or 45 seconds. EDIT: one last thing to add, time warp should effect friendly units that are in it, not just the enemies. There needs to be a trade off when it comes to abilities and a lot of the new abilities lack this. I was thinking along the same lines with the longer to activate. So you will still lose some units for you're all in attempt. Seems a bit too risk-free to try an all in right now. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
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Calm_down
8 Posts
On March 04 2013 23:05 FLuE wrote: But I'm happy with : Zerg - Viper is a cool caster unit. Fun to watch. Cloud will get nerfed but it is a unit a pro player will get a lot out of. Swarm host will be tough to balance but a unit that has good utility and Zerg needed it. New muta is strong and fun to use. The problem with cloud is that it is given to a flying unit. Cloud, like a dark sworm from BW, should belongs to ground unit, only then it can be balanced properly. By now cloud is OP spell, that is hard to balance. Muta now is way too OP vs Toss, only strong storm can handle it. But at the other side, storm is way too strong against all others. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 05 2013 12:16 Calm_down wrote: The problem with cloud is that it is given to a flying unit. Cloud, like a dark sworm from BW, should belongs to ground unit, only then it can be balanced properly. By now cloud is OP spell, that is hard to balance. Muta now is way too OP vs Toss, only strong storm can handle it. But at the other side, storm is way too strong against all others. Wow you are wrong on everything you just said. viper in general is really easy to counter. Mutalisks really easy to beat as protoss - open up stargate - see mutas - make phoenix = mutalisks are defended ^^. | ||
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GorGor
78 Posts
On February 24 2013 05:26 aksfjh wrote: Agreed. Though, there seems to be a lot of complaints from the other side of the fence of "It's only a 100 mineral unit!" I don't understand how zergs can complain so much about hellbats "only costing 100 minerals" when they have queens that only cost 150 and are tier 1. I mean out of all 3 races zerg has the best mineral sinks by far. Queens have so much utility and snowball when semi-massed and don't even cost larvae. Combine them with spines and spores (T1 and minerals only) and that is why we saw gasless 3 base zergs in WOL. Hellbats require a significant amount of gas and tech to even start production so it's not really even fair to evaluate them purely as a mineral sink until the late game. During which zerg has spines/lings/queens/spores for a mineral sink, and late game toss have cannons/chargelots and relatively gas inexpensive stalkers. All of this MYTH about Terran having 2 mineral sinks and Zerg and Protoss only having 1 needs to just end because it's simply not true. | ||
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