Balance Update #15 - February 22, 2013 - Page 18

On February 25 2013 13:54 Jasiwel wrote:
Well, from what I'm seeing and deducting, Terran players no longer really have any legitimate room to complain about having units that can't perform well after the midgame. Honestly, the best Terran players are the ones that are either incredibly good at the game itself, are some of the best at micro-management, and can utilize every Terran unit effectively. MVP, Boxer, qxc - These guys are just a few of the best that know how to actually play Terran.

From a Protoss player's perspective, Hellbats finally offer a solid counter to the powerful mid-lategame Zealot-Archon combination we see in WoL. After playing several games against Terran players that actually use Hellbats correctly alongside M/M/M/V, not only does Zealot-Archon fail, but so does the classic Protoss Ground Deathball. With Hellbats in that mix, Protoss literally has to grab Archons, Colossus, and High Templar/Psistorm for that one battle to win a normally favorable engagement at a choke. That's not even mentioning H/M/M/M/V mixed with Mech support or Ravens. I'm not certain about Skytoss against Terran (other than Mass Marine, Viking, and Medivacs being a classic counter still), but all I'm saying now is that Terran players really have NO reason whatsoever to complain about their being inferior lategame now.

On February 25 2013 12:16 DeCoup wrote:

The siege research was removed for the sake of timings not the cost. So when comparing WoL to HoTS your total required research cost for defensive mech has only increased by 50/50 (-100/100+150/150). You then have the option in late game to get the mine upgrade, but I don't really think that upgrade is in the scope of this situation.

On February 25 2013 14:02 Infernal_dream wrote:


I've had more success just keeping terran on the backfoot. Always having warp prisms/pylons and warpins everywhere. Avoid that big fight. He can't get going if he has to keep pulling his army back.

On February 25 2013 09:46 YarNhoj wrote:
I now just make hellions until armory then switch and make hellbats. I see no reason to ever research the transformation upgrade. Hellions do enough to stop lings and stupidly greedy expansions early game. HellBat drops are now intended to make sure the zerg can't auto remax. 3/3 hellbat drops late game completely decimate. Since you can produce hellbats 2 at a time from the factory there is never a reason to get the upgrade. Why build a hellion and transform it when you can build a hellbat in the same amount of time? I liked the cargo nerf, though I thought it should have been three hellbats not two. I never understood removing the blue flame upgrade...it's the same unit...and I still don't understand the bio tag. The core issue is that the hellbat takes the same amount of time that a hellion does to produce. If hellbats took 5 seconds longer to produce, hellion transform takes ~ 4 seconds, then it would make sense to get the upgrade. You would then be trading speed of having the unit for ~4 seconds of vulnerability. As it stands now I don't see this upgrade ever being used. It's almost like the overlord speed upgrade for zerg. Before lair it's almost never useful to spend the gas on that upgrade. There is almost no advantage to getting it that soon, much like there is almost no advantage to getting the servos.

On February 25 2013 15:24 Novacute wrote:


It's just a very crude fix in an attempt to delay a hellbat timing. This basically reduces the effectiveness of almost all types of early-mid hellbat drops, and if you want to do an early drop, you would have to proxy the factory and the medivac which puts you at a massive disadvantage if it's scouted. Well, i'm happy about this change, but i sincerely hope they don't nerf hellbat's damage/hp, since they're needed for TvP mech.

On February 25 2013 15:31 DeCoup wrote:

How is it a 'crude fix' when this is how it originally was? They just reverted a previous patch.

On February 25 2013 16:10 ledarsi wrote:
The hellbat has indeed become a franken-unit. It always was weird, but now it is positively bizarre. Its HP changes when it transforms, and it becomes Biological, and it changes from 2 to 4 cargo size. It can be produced from a factory with an armory tech requirement, but it can be morphed from a hellion with a research from the factory tech lab. Its damage distribution and typing are completely different from the hellion's, and now only the hellion benefits from blue flame.

It's just ugly. I would infinitely prefer a second new and completely discrete unit instead of this transforming nonsense.

I get the impression Browder thinks Terran players loved the "transform-y" part of the Siege Tank, and now we have four units that "transform." The tank, the widow mine, the hellion, and the viking, All of which really need some work. They really just have no idea.

On February 25 2013 16:10 ledarsi wrote:
The hellbat has indeed become a franken-unit. It always was weird, but now it is positively bizarre. Its HP changes when it transforms, and it becomes Biological, and it changes from 2 to 4 cargo size. It can be produced from a factory with an armory tech requirement, but it can be morphed from a hellion with a research from the factory tech lab. Its damage distribution and typing are completely different from the hellion's, and now only the hellion benefits from blue flame.

It's just ugly. I would infinitely prefer a second new and completely discrete unit instead of this transforming nonsense.

I get the impression Browder thinks Terran players loved the "transform-y" part of the Siege Tank, and now we have four units that "transform." The tank, the widow mine, the hellion, and the viking, All of which really need some work. They really just have no idea.

On February 25 2013 16:56 Rabiator wrote:

Thanks for posting this ... after your post it became clearer why the unit is so terrible. The sum of "mutations" really makes it two separate units which magically change into one another instead of two sides of the same coin. It doesnt work from a design point of view, because it doesnt make sense. One thing (like blue flame OR cargo space OR bio/mechanical) being different might be acceptable, but all of them just make it totally ridiculous and artificial.

The only thing which Blizzard thinks about now is "Does it work?" and they totally dont care about "Does it make sense?".

Oh and dont get me started on the name "Hellbat" ... which is completely the opposite of what the unit is.

On February 25 2013 16:10 ledarsi wrote:
The hellbat has indeed become a franken-unit. It always was weird, but now it is positively bizarre. Its HP changes when it transforms, and it becomes Biological, and it changes from 2 to 4 cargo size. It can be produced from a factory with an armory tech requirement, but it can be morphed from a hellion with a research from the factory tech lab. Its damage distribution and typing are completely different from the hellion's, and now only the hellion benefits from blue flame.

It's just ugly. I would infinitely prefer a second new and completely discrete unit instead of this transforming nonsense.

I get the impression Browder thinks Terran players loved the "transform-y" part of the Siege Tank, and now we have four units that "transform." The tank, the widow mine, the hellion, and the viking, All of which really need some work. They really just have no idea.

On February 25 2013 16:10 ledarsi wrote:
The hellbat has indeed become a franken-unit. It always was weird, but now it is positively bizarre. Its HP changes when it transforms, and it becomes Biological, and it changes from 2 to 4 cargo size. It can be produced from a factory with an armory tech requirement, but it can be morphed from a hellion with a research from the factory tech lab. Its damage distribution and typing are completely different from the hellion's, and now only the hellion benefits from blue flame.

It's just ugly. I would infinitely prefer a second new and completely discrete unit instead of this transforming nonsense.

I get the impression Browder thinks Terran players loved the "transform-y" part of the Siege Tank, and now we have four units that "transform." The tank, the widow mine, the hellion, and the viking, All of which really need some work. They really just have no idea.

On February 25 2013 17:30 Everlong wrote:


Actually, it makes a bit sense right now. Hellbat went through many changes, so people are confused now.

You have Hellion as a fast scout and you have Hellbat as a fighter. You can research upgrade to make them able to transform between each other at Armory tech, which only makes sense, because why would you have mid-late game fighter avaiable in early game.

Now, only thing that is kinda "wrong" is this bio-flag, but I guess Blizzard likes it.

Blue Flame upgrade is pretty useless, because you only want it to kill workers faster. For this purpose, Hellbat drops are probably better. In direct engagements, you always want Hellbats. So I guess, this upgrade can be dismissed.

On February 25 2013 19:30 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:


I too had my reservations of the bio-flag on hellbat, until my short story and further research.




Now tell me its impossible for mech to have bio-flag. Hellbats are giant SCVs with shields-for-arms and head mounted flame-thrower.

On February 25 2013 12:07 quebecman77 wrote:


im thinking that because they are less and less terran players curently playing this game also most of the good one are
korean , while they are ALOT of good foreigner pro zerg and protoss , and they never wait for cry nerf at anything and are usualy very vocal .

also at lower level terran kinda look OP more easy ,and also because that the only race who realy need to win early game because the late game realy bad ( so since forever when terran find something or good all in for end the game fast , they never stop ) and it got nerfed . mostly because people think that more op when the build make you loss before the 15 min mark , when something hit at late game they take more time to say that because ''the build op'' and at lower level this never reach this point and most of them dont even know what strong or why they loss or if that fair at this point in the game .

also the fact that many master and higher foreigner terran just stoped this game for exemple i was playing bw for 8 year at a high level and switched to sc2 , but so did about 7-8 people i have know from bw , everyone of them was diamond right when the league have open , and everyone of them got master right when the league got open too , many of them was playing less that 10 hour week , im not saying that for say they are amazing but because all of them KNOW how rts work and when they reply for exemple in a forum they make realy good post who are often taked more seriously , they know what broken .

im saying that because most good foreigner who switched bw to starcraft 2 , most of them droped this game . but you cant say the same from the zerg and protoss in bw , they are often more influential that new rts player who are curently good at starcraft 2 , and many terran who are curently good in starcraft 2 are usualy new rts player who just dont whine because they dont have enough rts background for know if the nerf was fine or what realy wrong with the game .

for exemple the old NTT from bw did try some foreplay into sc2 for end up stoping disgusted . i got gm myself playing after my 8 hour/day job but stoped about 5 months ago , totaly disgusted at the way blizzard balance this title , im saying that because people who are good curently in sc2 are not that much talented at rts
( for exemple many B teamer in bw was top 1-5 in sc2 right away ) but strangely realy amazing broodwar player never did that good in sc2 , these people were far more talented at rts that the b teamer who dominated them in sc2 , i would realy like to know what are the skill required for be sucessful in sc2 .( maybe not playing terran a part of it )

just the fact that many bw b teamer got that good prove something , in about 8 people in my f list
( 4 terran ) ( who could clearly have been pro gamer in sc2 if they wanted ) almost all of them stoped ,my f list was full of amazing player at some point and even 2 of them got gm playing almost never but all of them droped this game at some point .

also the fact you cant just talk about what wrong with the game will never help you guy
''when something was broken in bw everyone was talking or would talk about it ''

you find some strange rules for this sc2 titles with the community who got the name ESPORTS right away that you cant talk about his balance or flaw in balance because people think it should be perfect for some strange reason .

im many website you are banned or flagged right away as whiner when you make a post saying you think the game not totaly balanced and you are labeled right away :
''a balance whiner ''

that a pure childiss dream to hope a game complex like sc2 was balanced right at the releases date
( it got the title esport right away and everyone got say ''stfu about balance whine'' the game perfect )

bw have take year for get the tag esport ( mostly after the team behind the game stoped changing all stuft each week )
then people figured stuft during year for get the balance at the end .

sc2 got changed each week , stuft changed , build changed , unit removed and so on , with a team of monkey for balance it
( blizzard also balance wow and diablo 3 , why you think this team would balance more into a complex rts like sc2 ??? )

im saying that because im realy not taking this game seriously as a rts game sucessor , people should just take this game as a fun litle game in space where you kill monster and be done with it ,